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Thread: Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

  1. #126
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
    As far as people talking about you, calling you a gaijin amonst themselves, yes it happens. But what's the big deal? I have noticed that they often will mention it, but then it just passes. People often make only as much of the fact that you are a gainjin as you yourself do, in my experience.
    ...
    Complaining about it will not solve anything. I think that the more you put up a fuss about it, the more you reinforce people's sometimes negative stereotypes of "foreigners".
    So, am I allowed to call the Japanese "naijin" (“�l, insiders/natives) to stay coherent with the Japanese dualism of uchi (inside) and soto (outside) ? Next time a salesman comes and ring to my door and he says "ah, gaijin da!" when I open the door (this has happened to me 3 times, among about 10 sales people that came), I will reply "ah, naijin da!". This way, if he is shocked or find my utterance inappropriate, we will be even. I suspect that the guy won't even understand what I mean by "naijin" and won't think about it (wondering about the meaning of words is not something the Japanese normally do). I would be fun with a group of "gaijin" to start talking about the "naijin", giggle as me mention it at the bewilderment of locals. Everytime a lift/elevator door opens and some Japanese are inside, I will say "oh, naijin da!" and ask them "Nihonjin desu ka ? Watashi no nihongo heta desu yo." and laugh aloud alone. This way maybe they will understand how I feel when they tell "gaijin" the same in reverse.

    The only thing we can't do as gaijin talking about naijin is grouping all countries in the world under the "naijin" term to make stereotypes and misconceptions all the more outrageous. I could say "oo, these naijin you know, they eat natto every morning !". But it doesn't sound as bad as "oh, these gaijin, they all eat hamburgers" - if gaijin meant "American", there would be at least a bit of truth in it, but as a gaijin could as well be Indian, Chinese, Ghanan, Italian or Swedish, only the Japanese have the priviledge of making such gross overgeneralisation on a world scale.

    If you're not willing to accept that burden, then IMHO you have no business complaining about minor inconveniences you face here.
    But is it fair that they do things we can't do to them in Japan ? (see above) Even outside Japan, when Japanese people come to Europe, we don't call them "gaijin" or foreigner in the country's language. We don't look all surprise and say "oh, a gaijin" when a Japanese appears in the lift/elevator. We don't try to speak broken Japanese they don't understand when they address us in the local language. We don't assume that they cannot eat the local food or cannot use some utensils because they are Japanese. I don't understand how most Westerners want to be tolerant of such behaviour while staying in Japan, using for argument that we live in their country and should do as they like, but if somebody were to behave like that with Japanese tourists or residents in a Western country, he/she would be labelled as a racist for making fun of them or assume they can't do things every human being can do.

    Honestly, what would you think of a French person (just an example) who would ask Japanese residents in France whether they can eat "fois gras" and if met by a positive answer, take a surprised expression and say "oh, really, you can eat fois gras ? Wow ! you must be French ! I thought the Japanese couldn't eat fois gras." Then, the same with cheese, bread, or whatever with most of the typically French dishes at a meal. First that would be boring, but the person would be thought of as seriously deranged or bizarrely prejudiced.

    Let say that same Japanese person has lived for 5 years in France and speaks French quite fluently. Everytime he/she asks something in a shop, station, etc. the local French people reply in (broken) English or give the person a explanation leaflet/map/timetable in English. Don't forget that this is France, and the Japanese person speaks French to them. Assuming that a Japanese speaks English is not much better than assuming that a French or Italian person speaks English. Almost as many don't (or not fluently at least) in any of the three countries. So, that Japanese person would certainly get frustrated after a while. Living in France and trying hard to learn French, it must be annoying when the locals reply to you in English seeing you are Asian, regardless of how good your French is. It's even more bothering if one does not speak English, or less well than French in this case. Not being a native English speaker, regardless of my English skills, I find it as bothering when I address someone in Japanese and the Japanese all assume that I speak English and reply in English (or say they can't speak English), just because I am Caucasian.

    What they difference between being a Japanese who can speak French in France, or a French speaker who can speak Japanese in Japan ? Local people shouldn't behave differently. Yet, I can tell you that nobody in France (or Belgium, Germany, Italy or whatever) will reply to you in (broken or good) English if you address them in their language with a reasonably good level (i.e. not reading from a phrasebook, but making comprehensible sentences on your own). So why do the Japanese feel they have to right to hurt foreigner's feelings and pride by basically feigning not to understand your Japanese well enough so that English is the only solution left to communicate, however poor theirs is ? How could they be so careless about other people's feelings ?

    Ironic for a country so concerned with "omoiyari" that people should lack so much what I call "kangaeyari". Omoiyari is try to feel how another would like you to do for them (e.g. offering them a present on their birthday). Kangaeyari is actually reflecting (not just feeling based on one's own emotions) about how to achieve that. In this case, having "kangaeyari" means understanding that 1) somebody who makes efforts to speak the local language does not wish to be talked to in another language, 2) not everybody may speak this other language, so there is no point assuming that the foreigner can if he/she is addressing you in your language. My entire article Things Japanese people should not say to Westerners is based on this typical Japanese lack of "kangaeyari" (a neologism of mine).

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  2. #127
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    Well then, why is it that you seem to have so many problems and I seem to have so few?

    I can only think of it as being a matter of attitude.

  3. #128
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
    Well then, why is it that you seem to have so many problems and I seem to have so few?
    I can only think of it as being a matter of attitude.
    Yeah, I have to invent problems to try to "fit in" within the group. No, just kidding (or, am I ? I'll have to scrutinize my subconscious ).

    Why don't you think it's a problem that the naijin have such a different attitude toward foreigners ? They are breaking the world harmony

    (I think I am getting a bit tired...)

  4. #129
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    Just thought Maciamo wanted to invite more Japanese, trolls or not, with his critical opinions here, but I suppose I was wrong. If he really wants to educate them, I'd start my threads in "�”Ê“I‚ȃtƒH[ƒ‰ƒ€" here...

    Just a quick question, what do you do for your shitamachi community to "fit in"?

  5. #130
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun
    Just a quick question, what do you do for your shitamachi community to "fit in"?
    I participated to the local matsuri everytime it was held. I greet my neighbours (but rarely get more than a mumbled reply as most people are over 60 and are not well disposed toward foreigners). I learnt about the history of the neighbourhood (taught my wife about it, although she's always lived there). What could I do more that a normal citizen usually does ? What could I do if people don't even want to say "hello" ?

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I participated to the local matsuri everytime it was held. I greet my neighbours (but rarely get more than a mumbled reply as most people are over 60 and are not well disposed toward foreigners). I learnt about the history of the neighbourhood (taught my wife about it, although she's always lived there). What could I do more that a normal citizen usually does ? What could I do if people don't even want to say "hello" ?
    you're just unlucky not to have any internationl friendship loving ochan/obachan there.
    the smallest town I've ever lived was the town with its 40,000 population. for me, it is a rather small one, though some of you may think it's big.
    honestly it was a bit surprised to see people like i said above.

  7. #132
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Yeah, I have to invent problems to try to "fit in" within the group. No, just kidding (or, am I ? I'll have to scrutinize my subconscious ).

    Why don't you think it's a problem that the naijin have such a different attitude toward foreigners ? They are breaking the world harmony

    (I think I am getting a bit tired...)
    I don't have an answer any more than anyone else here, so you have tried talking about this with them I'm sure....what has the general response been ?

    Besides walking around buried in a Japanese newspaper or book never to be mistaken for an illiterate gaijin....

  8. #133
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    Another experience: I was on the phone, and the woman was trying to explain something to me-- I told her I understood... But she seemed not to believe me.
    Anyway, after trying to explain for a while, she finally said ‰pŒê‚�«‚È‚­‚�cƒ‰ƒC‚í I
    It was annoying...
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  9. #134
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    Besides walking around buried in a Japanese newspaper or book never to be mistaken for an illiterate gaijin....
    Good idea ! I never thought about it because I don't usually read while walking (a bit dangerous in Tokyo). But I could try in the neighbourhood, just to show them I can read Japanese.

  10. #135
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Btw, I was checking Google to see if somebody else had also come up with the term "naijin" and I have found an article in the Japan Times about this : You've earned it: lifetime 'gaijin' status!

    Quote Originally Posted by Japan Times
    After an extended stay in Japan, does one ever cease to regard oneself as a "gaijin" (foreigner)?
    ...
    When I first came to Japan, I was not happy with the status of "gaikokujin" and, like many naive foreigners before me, wanted only one thing: to become Japanese! I wanted to become what I call a "naikokujin." I shunned the bed for a futon, chose a tatami-style apartment over one with chairs and furniture, and vowed to sit in the "seiza" position no matter how blue my face turned. I would live only Japanese style!
    I think that summarises well how many (most of the ?) Westerners who come and live in Japan for the country itself (not for their job) think and behave when they first come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japan Times
    Although I was still a gaijin, my Japanese "naijin" friends seemed more than happy to help me make my miraculous transformation. I envisioned before and after photos: Before -- rude gaijin; after -- polite, cultured, self-effacing naijin with blonde hair.
    This may be true for some people, but in my case, I found the Japanese to be only superficially polite, rather selfish, lacking "kangaeyari" and often bad mannered (pushing in trains, bad street manners...). Of course, that is based on my experience in Tokyo (but that's still where 28% of the Japanese live or commute to).

    Quote Originally Posted by Japan Times
    Making my "inkan" in Japanese. While most foreigners have their personal stamps made in katakana, reflecting their gaijinness, my naijin coworkers were eager to translate my name into kanji characters.
    Most foreigners ? Those who come on business maybe, but I and many other Westerners have met have their hanko in kanji. It's part of the cultural experience.

    To this day, when Japanese see my stamp, they are completely baffled and cannot even begin to read it. After so many embarrassing encounters with my uniquely stamped legal documents at the bank and post office, I changed my inkan to a gaijin-friendly katakana one.
    Haha, never had any problem with mine. Fortunately, my(first) name is pretty easy to render in kanji.

    Speaking like Japanese royalty. A naijin friend of mine, while teaching me Japanese, taught me to say "go-kigen yo" instead of "konnichi wa" for "hello." This, she said, was the Japanese used by the royal family, and if I used it I would be highly regarded among regular naijin and that this would prove that I was upper class.
    I also used such expressions (e.g. "go shimpai naku") in my first year in Japan, but some Japanese just laughed when they heared me speak like that. kashii"

  11. #136
    ‰“‚¢‚©‚çs‚«‚Ü‚¹‚ñ GaijinPunch's Avatar
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    One particularly surprising time was when an older Japanese man asked me for directions (in Japanese) at a packed Takananobaba JR station though.
    I can beat that. I was asked in Japanese to take a group photo... in Hawaii! The kicker was he didn't even point to the camera or hold it up or anything. It was a friends wedding... the bride was Japanese, so a large portion of the guests were Japanese. Why he didn't ask them, I'll never know. This was the bride's father, who got obscenely tanked later in the evening.

  12. #137
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    d‚�A‚Ђ�‚Ђ�ÂŽæ‚è ã‚°‚�½‚çŒÀ‚ª‚È‚¢‚� ·‚ªA‚¢‚¸‚ê‚̏ꍇ‚�A »‚Ì‚±‚�É�µ‚ê‚�È‚¢A ‚Ü‚½‚Í–³’m‚¾‚©‚ç‹N‚é ±‚�¾‚�¾‚¤“_‚�Í“¯‚ ‚¾‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚·imyth‚��ÖŒW È‚¢‚©‚�‚µ‚ê‚Ü‚¹‚ñ‚ª� Aª‚Á‚±‚ÍŽ—‚½‚悤‚È‚� ‚́j
    ±×‚ÈŽ–‚�s[ƒs[‘›‚®‚Ì‚ª–Ê”’‚¢‚Ì‚�A ”nŽh‚µ‚È‚�A‚í‚´‚�ü–¡ ‚µ‚»‚¤‚ɐH‚ׂ�â‚è‚Ü µ‚½

    ’Pƒ‚ɁA‚»‚Ì‚�«‚ɁA‚»� ê‚ð•s–ù‰õ‚ÉŽv‚Á‚�¢‚ Ž–‚ðA–{l‚ÉŒ¾‚Á‚½‚ç‚� ‚¤‚�µ‚傤H

  13. #138
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijinian
    Hmm...
    “ú–{l‚́AƒKƒCƒWƒ“‚Ééx‚µ� �iw‚±‚ñ‚ÈŽg—p‚È‚ñ‚�‡ ‚Á‚�È‚¢‚ñ‚¾‚©‚�‚µ‚ê ‚È‚¢xj‰ï‚¤‘OA“Ë‘Ru“ú –{l‚¶‚á‚È‚¢‚©‚ç“ú–{Œê ‚ªo—�È‚¢v‚Á‚��ß‚é ‚Ì‚ªŒÓ–ƒ‰ÙŽqi‚í‚©‚éA »‚êH–Ê”’‚¢Œ¾—t‚�·‚æ j‚¾B
    I was just trying out some new vocab, even though I knew it made little sen‚“e. When I hear a new word or two, I try to use it/them-- just gave it a (pathetic) shot...
    �‚ê‚ÈŒ¾‚¢•û‚¾‚Á‚½‚Ì �A’ƒ‰»‚µ‚�iAgain, new word)‚¢‚¢ƒ�BÎB
    Back off on vocab acquisition for a bit and go back and review grammar and sentence structure again. You're getting ahead of yourself.

  14. #139
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
    Well then, why is it that you seem to have so many problems and I seem to have so few?

    I can only think of it as being a matter of attitude.
    It's also part and parcel of the nature of work that he does. The sooner he gets out of it, the better off he'll be.

  15. #140
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    Back off on vocab acquisition for a bit and go back and review grammar and sentence structure again. You're getting ahead of yourself.
    •Œ¾� ‚肪‚�¤B‰ð‚Á� �Ü‚·BƒTƒbƒLAŒfŽ¦‚µ‚È‚¢� û‚ª—�©‚Á‚½‚�·‚ˁB

    •’Ê‚È‚ç‚»‚ñ‚ȂɁEEE� sŽv‹c‚̘b‚µ•ûAŽg‚¢‚Ü‚¹� ñB
    ‚ªA�Ô�‚¦‚�¢‚��AV� µ‚­�w‚ñ‚¾’PŒê‚ð‚·‚®Žg‚ ‚�Ý‚½‚çA‚¸‚Á‚��o‚¦� ³‚¹‚é‚炵‚¢‚ñ‚�·‚æB

    í‚É“ú–{Œê‚ð’Pƒ‰»‚·‚� ‚«‚¾‚�¾‚í‚ê‚Ü‚·‚ˁB• ·‚¢‚½‚ç‚�¤‚©‚ȁEEE� B

  16. #141
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    I agree that it is a good thing to put new vocab items to use as soon as you can.
    But I think you may have rushed through some grammar stuff that would definitely benefit from a careful review. Given your age and Japanese learning situation, you do amazingly well and I admire your efforts and accomplishments. But consider stopping moving forward for a bit and do a little backtracking.

  17. #142
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meverieJp
    ‚±‚±‚�́u�O‘lv‚ÍŽå‚ ‰¢•�l‚ðŽw‚µ‚Ü‚·B
    Žå‚ɉ¢•�l‚È‚çfu�O‘l v‚Ì‘ã‚í‚è‚Ɂu‰¢•�lv‚ Žg‚Á‚�A–J‚ß‚½‚¢B�”Ê Ì“ú–{l‚ɂ͉¢•�l‚¾‚¯ ðŽv‚Á‚��‚½‚¾u�Olv‚� ¢‚¤Œ¾—t‚ðŽg‚¤B

    Ž„‚́AŽ©•ª‚ÌŒŒ‰tŒ^‚ð’m� ç‚È‚¢l‚ª‘½‚­‚�A³�m‚� “ŒvŽæ‚ê‚�¢‚È‚¢‚�v‚� ‚�Ü‚µ‚½B³�m‚È“Œv‚ª � ‚é‚È‚çA‚º‚Ћ³‚¦‚�~ ‚µ‚¢‚�·Biƒ\[ƒX‚�j
    “Œv‚È‚ç�È’P‚ɃEƒFƒbƒu‚�� ©•t‚¯‚ç‚ê‚Ü‚·B—Ⴆ‚Î A‚±‚̃TƒCƒg‚ɂ̓GƒXƒjƒbƒNƒOƒ‹[ƒv‚¸‚‚̌Œ‰tŒ^—¦‚ª� ‚è� Ü‚·B‚©‚È‚è–Ê”’‚¢B� ”ÔAB—¦‚ª‚‚¢‚̂̓AƒCƒkl� �·i‚P‚W“jB¼‰¢Bl‚ ’�‚ɂ́AƒhƒCƒcAƒI[ƒXƒgƒ�ƒAAƒXƒCƒXAƒfƒ“ƒ}[ƒNA ƒXƒEƒF[ƒfƒ“A ƒmƒ‹ƒEƒF[Aƒtƒ‰ƒ“ƒXAƒXƒyƒCƒ“Aƒ|ƒ‹ƒg ƒKƒ‹‚Ì‚Ù‚¤‚ªAAŒ^‚ª�”Ô ½‚¢A‚»‚ÌŽŸ‚ÍOŒ^‚�·B� Iƒ‰ƒ“ƒ_Aƒxƒ‹ƒM[AƒCƒMƒ�ƒXAƒAƒCƒ‹ƒ‰ƒ“ƒh‚�� Cƒ^ƒ�ƒAA‹t‚É�”Ô‘½‚¢‚¢� Ì‚ÍOŒ^A‚»‚ÌŒãAŒ^.

    “ŒƒAƒWƒAlA“Œ‰¢Bl‚ÌŒŒ‰t ^A‚���Ž—‚�¢‚Ü‚·BA ^AOŒ^‚�BŒ^A‚·‚ׂ�¯‚¶‚ ‚®‚ç‚¢‘½‚¢B¼ƒ�[ƒƒbƒp‚�’l‚̃Aƒ��ƒJl‚ ­‚È‚¢BŒ^‚ªA“Œƒ�[ƒƒbƒpAƒgƒ‹ƒRAƒAƒ‰ƒu‚̍‘� XAƒƒVƒAA’�‘A�؍‘A“ú {A‚׃gƒiƒ€Aƒ^ƒC‚�©ABŒ^� Í‚Q‚O“‚©‚ç‚R‚O“‚Ü‚� Ì—¦‚�·B

    ‚Ù‚©‚̃AƒWƒAl‚��‚Á‚�A Cƒ“ƒhl‚ÍOŒ^‚�BŒ^‚¾‚¯‘½‚ iAŒ^‚ª­‚È‚¢jB“ŒƒAƒWƒAl ‚É�“`Žq“I‚É�Ö˜A‚µ‚�¢� é‚Ì–k•�yl‚Í‚Ù‚�ñ‚� P‚O‚O“OŒ^‚©‚Ù‚�ñ‚�P O‚O“AŒ^BBŒ^‚Í‚Ù‚�ñ‚�� Ì–k•�yl‚Ì’�‚É‚Í‚Ü‚Á ½‚­‚¢‚È‚¢B

    ‚±‚ê‚ðŒ©‚��A“¯‚¶ŒŒ‰t Œ^‚̃Oƒ‹[ƒv‚̍‘X‚Í•¶‰»‚�l‚¦•û� º‚ñ‚º‚ñ�‚¤BƒCƒ^ƒ�ƒAl� �CƒMƒ�ƒXl‚Í‚º‚ñ‚º‚ñŽ— �¢‚È‚¢‚Ì‚É“Œv‚ÍŽ—‚ �¢‚éBƒƒVƒAlAƒAƒ‰ƒulA� �‘l‚�ú–{l‚�AŽ—‚� ‚È‚¢‚̂ɁA‚ªŒŒ‰tŒ^—¦‚ª Ž—‚�¢‚éBƒIƒ‰ƒ“ƒ_l‚�� k‰¢l‚͐«�iA•¶‰»AŒ¾Œê‚� �“`Žq‚Í‚���Ž—‚�¢‚ ‚Ì‚É“Œv‚ª�‚¤B

    iŒŒ‰tŒ^‚̃AƒCƒfƒA‚́AuŒŒ‰t Œ^è‚¢v‚©‚ç”­Ë‚µ‚�é� �v‚¤‚Ì‚�A‚±‚ê‚ð–o–� ·‚é‚ɂ͐肢ŽY‹�©‚ç‚ ‚Ô‚·‚µ‚©‚È‚¢‹C‚ª‚µ‚� ‚·Bgood luckj
    è‚¢‚͘_—“I‚ȁiƒƒWƒJƒ‹ j‚±‚��Í‚È‚¢B‚¯‚ê‚� A‚¢‚ë‚ñ‚Ȑ肢i—Ⴆ‚� “®•¨è‚¢AŒŒ‰tŒ^è‚¢‚È� �j‚ðM‚¶‚é‚©‹»–¡‚ª� é“ú–{l‚Í”ñí‚É‘½‚¢‚� v‚¢‚Ü‚·B–l‚̍‘‚È‚ç‚Ù �ñ‚�10”N‘ã‚̏—‚ÌŽq‚µ ©M‚¶‚È‚¢B‚»‚ê‚́u‘½� ­‚Ì“ú–{l‚͘_—“I‚�Í‚ ‚¢v‚�l‚ªŒ¾‚Á‚½‚Ì—� R‚Ì�‚‚�·B

    1) Ž„‚ªA‹Žð‰®‚�nŽh‚µ‚ð H‚ׂ½‚�«AƒI[ƒXƒgƒ‰ƒ�ƒAlAƒCƒMƒ�ƒXlAƒJƒi _lAƒAƒ��ƒJlA‘µ‚Á‚�A‹ ’Ž‚ð‚‚Ԃµ‚½‚悤‚È�ç ‚ð‚³‚ê‚½B—ׂɍÀ‚Á‚�� ¢‚½ƒI[ƒXƒgƒ‰ƒ�ƒAl‚́A‚¢‚·‚ð� ®‚µ‚�„‚©‚ç—£‚êAƒCƒMƒ �ƒXl‚́AŽ„‚ªH‚ׂ�é‚� ±‚ë‚̎ʐ^‚Ü‚�æ‚Á‚�¢� ½B-->Ž„‚Í–ì”ؐl‚�·‚©H

    2) Ž‚¿‹A‚è‚·‚µ‚𔃂¨‚¤ �µ‚½‚çAŒ™‚»‚¤‚È�ç‚ð ‚µ‚½‚Ì‚�AuD‚«‚¶‚á‚È ¢‚́Hv‚�¾‚Á‚½‚çAu¶� ›‚È‚ñ‚©H‚ׂç‚ê‚È‚¢ æBƒoƒNƒeƒ�ƒA‚ª‚¢‚Á‚Ï‚¢� �v‚�¾‚í‚ꂽB-->–³‹ÛŽº�‚¿‚�·‚©H

    3)u‚¢‚‚©Œ~“÷‚ðH‚ׂ� ‚½‚¢‚È‚Ÿv‚�¾‚Á‚½‚ç� A—₽‚¢�ç‚�ɂ܂ꂽB-->Ž„‚ª–ì”ؐl‚¾‚©‚ç‚�·� ©H
    ‘½‚­‚̉¢•�l‚́A“Á•Ê‚ ‰pŒêŒn‚Ì‚Ù‚¤‚́A“®•¨� � ˜‚É‹C‚É‚·‚él‚ª‘½‚¢B xƒWƒ^ƒ�ƒAƒ“‚̐l‚¾‚ñ‚¾‚ñ ½‚­‚È‚Á‚�­‚éB“Á•Ê‚ ƒCƒMƒ�ƒX‚�B‚»‚ê�ãAŒ~A Cƒ‹ƒJ‚�n‚Í“Á•Ê‚ȁu“ª� ¢‚¢Al�Ô‚Ì—F‚Ì“®•¨v‚� v‚¤l‚ª‘½‚¢B“ú–{l‚�Œ¢� ©”L‚ðH‚ׂ½‚¢B“¯‚¶l� ¦•ûBŒ¢‚�L‚æ‚èAŒ~‚©”n Ì‚Ù‚¤‚ª“ª‚¢‚¢“®•¨‚� ·B–l‚Í� ‚Ü‚è‹C‚É‚µ‚È ¢‚¯‚�ˁB“Ø‚�‚�AŒ¢� ©”L‚æ‚è”]‚ª‘å‚«‚­‚�A“ª‚ª‚¢‚¢ ©‚ç‚ˁB‚»‚¤Žv‚Á‚½‚çA� �‚¤‚·‚ׂ�Ì“÷H‚ׂȂ¢ B

    ¶‹›‚ɂ‚¢‚�A‚»‚̐lX� Ì”½‰ž—�­‚í‚©‚ç‚È‚¢ B‚±‚̃TƒCƒg‚Ì’²¸‚ÌŒ‹‰� ‚́uŽõŽi‚©ŽhgvA‰¢•�l‚� ‚�Á‚��”ԍD‚«‚È“ú–{— —‚¾‚©‚çBŒ™‚¢l‚�‚¢� 邯‚�AŽõŽi‚ªŒ™‚¢“ú–{l� �¯‚¶‚­A—á�O‚¾‚�v‚¢ Ü‚·B

  18. #143
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijinian
    •Œ¾� ‚肪‚�¤B‰ð‚Á� �Ü‚·BƒTƒbƒLAŒfŽ¦‚µ‚È‚¢� û‚ª—�©‚Á‚½‚�·‚ˁB

    •’Ê‚È‚ç‚»‚ñ‚ȂɁEEE� sŽv‹c‚̘b‚µ•ûAŽg‚¢‚Ü‚¹� ñB
    ‚ªA�Ô�‚¦‚�¢‚��AV� µ‚­�w‚ñ‚¾’PŒê‚ð‚·‚®Žg‚ ‚�Ý‚½‚çA‚¸‚Á‚��o‚¦� ³‚¹‚é‚炵‚¢‚ñ‚�·‚æB

    í‚É“ú–{Œê‚ð’Pƒ‰»‚·‚� ‚«‚¾‚�¾‚í‚ê‚Ü‚·‚ˁB• ·‚¢‚½‚ç‚�¤‚©‚ȁEEE� B
    ”á”»‚µ‚½‚킯‚�Í‚È‚¢ ‚�·‚ˁB
    Ž„‚ªŽg‚Á‚�¢‚錾—t‚́A� ú–{l“¯Žm‚Ì“úí‰ï˜b‚� Ž©‘R‚�
    Žg‚í‚ê‚�¢‚È‚¢‚©‚�‚µ ê‚È‚¢‚¾‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚·B
    ‚¯‚ê‚��A‚¢‚‚�“ú–{l AGaijiniansan
    ‚Ì�F‚³‚ñ‚Í•ª‚©‚Á‚�º ³‚é‚悤‚�AŽ„‚Í�´“®‚µ ‚Ü‚·B

    ‚��Auéx‚·v‚Ì“�e‚Í‚¢ ‚­‚ç“�ñ‚��A
    ‘S‘Ì‚�µ‚��–¡‚ª—‰ð �«‚Ü‚¹‚ñB
    ‘½•ª‚���–Ê”’‚¢‚� ‚æ‚ˁB
    ‰pŒê‚�¨�è‚¢‚µ‚Ü‚·B

  19. #144
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  20. #145
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    ”á”»‚µ‚½‚킯‚�Í‚È‚¢ ‚�·‚ˁB
    Ž„‚ªŽg‚Á‚�¢‚錾—t‚́A� ú–{l“¯Žm‚Ì“úí‰ï˜b‚� Ž©‘R‚�
    Žg‚í‚ê‚�¢‚È‚¢‚©‚�‚µ ê‚È‚¢‚¾‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚·B
    ‚¯‚ê‚��A‚¢‚‚�“ú–{l AGaijiniansan
    ‚Ì�F‚³‚ñ‚Í•ª‚©‚Á‚�º ³‚é‚悤‚�AŽ„‚Í�´“®‚µ ‚Ü‚·B

    ‚��Auéx‚·v‚Ì“�e‚Í‚¢ ‚­‚ç“�ñ‚��A
    ‘S‘Ì‚�µ‚��–¡‚ª—‰ð �«‚Ü‚¹‚ñB
    ‘½•ª‚���–Ê”’‚¢‚� ‚æ‚ˁB
    ‰pŒê‚�¨�è‚¢‚µ‚Ü‚·B
    Japanese cheat "gaijin" by assuming they cannot speak Japanese without talking to them, it's "gomakashi!"
    i‘O‚Ì–|–óFj“ú–{l‚ª�Ol ‚Ééx‚µ‚�ï˜b‚µ‚È‚¢‚� –{Œê‚ª‚�«‚È‚¢‚��· é‚È‚ñ‚�Ó–ƒ‰ÙŽq‚¾I
    ˜b‘è‚ɍ‡‚Á‚�¢‚�A‚³A g‚Á‚�݂悤‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚µ ‚½B


    ‰pŒê‚ð“�ñ‚¾‚çAŽ„‚Ì• ‚Í‚â‚Á‚Ï‚è�Ô�‚Á‚�¢� é‚ñ‚�·‚ªA‘½•ªA‚È‚º ‚»‚ñ‚Ȃɏ‘‚¢‚½‚Ì‚©—� ‰ð‚�«‚é‚Ì‚©‚�‚µ‚ê‚� ‚¹‚ñ‚ˁB

    •Ê‚ɁAMIKEYCASH‚ªŒ¾‚Á‚½’Ê‚ AŽ„‚Ì“ú–{Œê‚Ì•¶–@‚Í‚ �Á‚��¢‚Á‚�¢‚�A”á »‚ª•K—v� ‚èA•œK‚µ‚È� ¯‚ê‚΂Ȃè‚Ü‚¹‚ñ‚ˁB
    Last edited by Gaijinian; Oct 14, 2005 at 07:01.

  21. #146
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    Just wondering who abuses the word "gaijin"...

  22. #147
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    ”á”»‚µ‚½‚킯‚�Í‚È‚¢ ‚�·‚ˁB
    Ž„‚ªŽg‚Á‚�¢‚錾—t‚́A� ú–{l“¯Žm‚Ì“úí‰ï˜b‚� Ž©‘R‚�
    Žg‚í‚ê‚�¢‚È‚¢‚©‚�‚µ ê‚È‚¢‚¾‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚·B
    ‚¯‚ê‚��A‚¢‚‚�“ú–{l AGaijiniansan
    ‚Ì�F‚³‚ñ‚Í•ª‚©‚Á‚�º ³‚é‚悤‚�AŽ„‚Í�´“®‚µ ‚Ü‚·B

    ‚��Auéx‚·v‚Ì“�e‚Í‚¢ ‚­‚ç“�ñ‚��A
    ‘S‘Ì‚�µ‚��–¡‚ª—‰ð �«‚Ü‚¹‚ñB
    ‘½•ª‚���–Ê”’‚¢‚� ‚æ‚ˁB
    ‰pŒê‚�¨�è‚¢‚µ‚Ü‚·B
    OK, back to regularly scheduled English.

    I asked a J-friend about the earlier post and as you said, Gaijiniansan, she got it is interesting when a Japanese person decides a foreigner cannot speak Japanese from seeing them but before they actually converse.


    ‘½•ª”Þ‚ªŒ¾‚¢‚½‚©‚Á‚½� ̂́@u“ú–{l‚́A�Ol‚�© ‚é‚�A‰ï˜b‚�‚¹‚¸‚É“ú–{ Œê‚ªo—�È‚¢‚��ß•t‚¯ ‚é‚̂́A‚¨‚©‚µ‚¢v‚� ‚¤‚±‚��µ‚å‚ˁH

  23. #148
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    See, talk, or just think of a gaijin in general.
    I don't know if I would say "interesting," but okashii seems OK.

    ‘½•ª”Þ‚ªŒ¾‚¢‚½‚©‚Á‚½� ̂́@u“ú–{l‚́A�Ol‚�© ‚é‚� A‰ï˜b‚�‚¹‚¸‚É“ú–{Œê‚ª o—�È‚¢‚��ß•t‚¯‚é‚� ‚́A‚¨ ‚©‚µ‚¢v‚�¢‚¤‚±‚�� µ‚å‚ˁH
    ‚»‚¤‚�·‚ˁEEEB

  24. #149
    „°N·(*ß„t�*)„°N· meverieJp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    è‚¢‚͘_—“I‚ȁiƒƒWƒJƒ‹ j‚±‚��Í‚È‚¢B‚¯‚ê‚� A‚¢‚ë‚ñ‚Ȑ肢i—Ⴆ‚� “®•¨è‚¢AŒŒ‰tŒ^è‚¢‚È� �j‚ðM‚¶‚é‚©‹»–¡‚ª� é“ú–{l‚Í”ñí‚É‘½‚¢‚� v‚¢‚Ü‚·B–l‚̍‘‚È‚ç‚Ù �ñ‚�10”N‘ã‚̏—‚ÌŽq‚µ ©M‚¶‚È‚¢B‚»‚ê‚́u‘½� ­‚Ì“ú–{l‚͘_—“I‚�Í‚ ‚¢v‚�l‚ªŒ¾‚Á‚½‚Ì—� R‚Ì�‚‚�·B
    –�ŽAè‚¢‚�10–œ‰~�ã’� ‚¬ž‚ñ‚�¢‚él‚�‚¢‚é� 悤‚�·‚Ì‚�A‚±‚ÌŽY‹� ð–o–�µ‚悤‚�µ‚½‚çA ‘åŽdŽ–‚É‚È‚é‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚ B‚Ü‚¸”l’P�‚�Í‚�« ‚Ü‚¹‚ñ‚ˁBl‹Cè‚¢Žt‚ªo ‰‰‚·‚éTV”Ô‘g‚�� ‚è‚Ü� ·‚µA‚»‚ÌŽY‹�¾‚¯‚�È ­A”Þ‚ç‚ðTV”Ô‘g‚ɏo‰‰‚ ‚¹‚�Ò‚¢‚�¢‚éƒ�fƒBƒA� ©‚ç‚�A”½”­‚ðŽó‚¯‚é‚ �v‚¢‚Ü‚·‚æB
    ŒÂl“I‚ɂ́A‚»‚ꂪŒi‹C‚ ’�¢•—‚É‚È‚é‚È‚çAƒJ� ‚‚ª‚�±‚�lƒM”w•‰‚Á‚� 悤‚ªA‚�¤‚��‚¢‚¢� �¢‚¤‹C‚ª‚µ‚Ü‚·‚ªB¢ Ì’�A‚»‚¤‚¢‚¤l‚�•K—v ¾‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚·‚æB“TŒ^“I‚� ‚́ALuis Viton freak ‚Ý‚½‚¢‚ȐlB

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    ‘½‚­‚̉¢•�l‚́A“Á•Ê‚ ‰pŒêŒn‚Ì‚Ù‚¤‚́A“®•¨� � ˜‚É‹C‚É‚·‚él‚ª‘½‚¢B xƒWƒ^ƒ�ƒAƒ“‚̐l‚¾‚ñ‚¾‚ñ ½‚­‚È‚Á‚�­‚éB“Á•Ê‚ ƒCƒMƒ�ƒX‚�B‚»‚ê�ãAŒ~A Cƒ‹ƒJ‚�n‚Í“Á•Ê‚ȁu“ª� ¢‚¢Al�Ô‚Ì—F‚Ì“®•¨v‚� v‚¤l‚ª‘½‚¢B“ú–{l‚�Œ¢� ©”L‚ðH‚ׂ½‚¢B“¯‚¶l� ¦•ûBŒ¢‚�L‚æ‚èAŒ~‚©”n Ì‚Ù‚¤‚ª“ª‚¢‚¢“®•¨‚� ·B–l‚Í� ‚Ü‚è‹C‚É‚µ‚È ¢‚¯‚�ˁB“Ø‚�‚�AŒ¢� ©”L‚æ‚è”]‚ª‘å‚«‚­‚�A“ª‚ª‚¢‚¢ ©‚ç‚ˁB‚»‚¤Žv‚Á‚½‚çA� �‚¤‚·‚ׂ�Ì“÷H‚ׂȂ¢ B
    horses are friends??? Why do they kill horses on horse racing then? http://www.animalaid.org.uk/racing/
    I actually asked the brit how they deal with inferior racehorses and she said "we just shoot them down".

    My point is they should have known some of us eat horse and seen my eating horse as respectfully as I don't care if they are vegetarians/dog-eaters/cat-eaters or not. I actually didn't take it so seriously then (as I enjoy it) but, if I truly felt offended I would just tell them not to do directly in person.

    Maciamo/áÁ’ƒ–Ì‚³‚ñAŽu‚ª‚‚¢‚� ‚Í—§”h‚�·‚ªA‚±‚ê‚ð� “O‚·‚é‚ɂ́i’�“r”¼’[‚É��®‚µ‚È‚¢‚�·‚ê‚Î jA“G‚ª‘å‚«‚·‚¬‚é‹C‚ª µ‚Ü‚·BŽÀŒ»«‚̖ڏ�Í� §‚Á‚�¢‚é‚ñ‚�µ‚傤� ©B
    Last edited by meverieJp; Oct 14, 2005 at 10:57.

  25. #150
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meverieJp
    –�ŽAè‚¢‚�10–œ‰~�ã’� ‚¬ž‚ñ‚�¢‚él‚�‚¢‚é� 悤‚�·‚Ì‚�A‚±‚ÌŽY‹� ð–o–�µ‚悤‚�µ‚½‚çA ‘åŽdŽ–‚É‚È‚é‚�v‚¢‚Ü‚
    This fortune-teling business could be replaced by something similar but more scientific. For example, psychological studies, or personality tests. But there are always people in every country that prefer myths to reason. Yet I have the feeling that there are proportionally much more people believing in fortune-telling than science in Japan compared to Europe (note that I did not say "compared to the USA").

    horses are friends??? Why do they kill horses on horse racing then? http://www.animalaid.org.uk/racing/
    I actually asked the brit how they deal with inferior racehorses and she said "we just shoot them down".
    Well, my mother does horse riding (not races though), and never would anyone loving horses kill a horse so easily. I have never heard of people killing horse racing either. Then, real horse lovers do Equestrianism (dressage, show jumping, etc.), not races.

    But don't forget that not everyone like horses (it's not one of my favourite animal) and Westerners also eat horse meat (especially in French speaking countries like France, Belgium or Quebec). According to Wikipedia (see link above), 153,000 tonnes of horse meat was consumed in Europe in 2001.

    My point is they should have known some of us eat horse and seen my eating horse as respectfully as I don't care if they are vegetarians/dog-eaters/cat-eaters or not.
    They know that some people eat horse also in the West. But I am sure the people you met would have reacted the same way in their own country if someone had eaten horse in front of them. I would never been allowed to order horse meat at the restaurant in my mother's presence - not even talk about it !

    Maciamo/áÁ’ƒ–Ì‚³‚ñAŽu‚ª‚‚¢‚� ‚Í—§”h‚�·‚ªA‚±‚ê‚ð� “O‚·‚é‚ɂ́i’�“r”¼’[‚É��®‚µ‚È‚¢‚�·‚ê‚Î jA“G‚ª‘å‚«‚·‚¬‚é‹C‚ª µ‚Ü‚·BŽÀŒ»«‚̖ڏ�Í� §‚Á‚�¢‚é‚ñ‚�µ‚傤� ©B
    Yes, I realise that.

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