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Thread: Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

  1. #126
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
    As far as people talking about you, calling you a gaijin amonst themselves, yes it happens. But what's the big deal? I have noticed that they often will mention it, but then it just passes. People often make only as much of the fact that you are a gainjin as you yourself do, in my experience.
    ...
    Complaining about it will not solve anything. I think that the more you put up a fuss about it, the more you reinforce people's sometimes negative stereotypes of "foreigners".
    So, am I allowed to call the Japanese "naijin" (内人, insiders/natives) to stay coherent with the Japanese dualism of uchi (inside) and soto (outside) ? Next time a salesman comes and ring to my door and he says "ah, gaijin da!" when I open the door (this has happened to me 3 times, among about 10 sales people that came), I will reply "ah, naijin da!". This way, if he is shocked or find my utterance inappropriate, we will be even. I suspect that the guy won't even understand what I mean by "naijin" and won't think about it (wondering about the meaning of words is not something the Japanese normally do). I would be fun with a group of "gaijin" to start talking about the "naijin", giggle as me mention it at the bewilderment of locals. Everytime a lift/elevator door opens and some Japanese are inside, I will say "oh, naijin da!" and ask them "Nihonjin desu ka ? Watashi no nihongo heta desu yo." and laugh aloud alone. This way maybe they will understand how I feel when they tell "gaijin" the same in reverse.

    The only thing we can't do as gaijin talking about naijin is grouping all countries in the world under the "naijin" term to make stereotypes and misconceptions all the more outrageous. I could say "oo, these naijin you know, they eat natto every morning !". But it doesn't sound as bad as "oh, these gaijin, they all eat hamburgers" - if gaijin meant "American", there would be at least a bit of truth in it, but as a gaijin could as well be Indian, Chinese, Ghanan, Italian or Swedish, only the Japanese have the priviledge of making such gross overgeneralisation on a world scale.

    If you're not willing to accept that burden, then IMHO you have no business complaining about minor inconveniences you face here.
    But is it fair that they do things we can't do to them in Japan ? (see above) Even outside Japan, when Japanese people come to Europe, we don't call them "gaijin" or foreigner in the country's language. We don't look all surprise and say "oh, a gaijin" when a Japanese appears in the lift/elevator. We don't try to speak broken Japanese they don't understand when they address us in the local language. We don't assume that they cannot eat the local food or cannot use some utensils because they are Japanese. I don't understand how most Westerners want to be tolerant of such behaviour while staying in Japan, using for argument that we live in their country and should do as they like, but if somebody were to behave like that with Japanese tourists or residents in a Western country, he/she would be labelled as a racist for making fun of them or assume they can't do things every human being can do.

    Honestly, what would you think of a French person (just an example) who would ask Japanese residents in France whether they can eat "fois gras" and if met by a positive answer, take a surprised expression and say "oh, really, you can eat fois gras ? Wow ! you must be French ! I thought the Japanese couldn't eat fois gras." Then, the same with cheese, bread, or whatever with most of the typically French dishes at a meal. First that would be boring, but the person would be thought of as seriously deranged or bizarrely prejudiced.

    Let say that same Japanese person has lived for 5 years in France and speaks French quite fluently. Everytime he/she asks something in a shop, station, etc. the local French people reply in (broken) English or give the person a explanation leaflet/map/timetable in English. Don't forget that this is France, and the Japanese person speaks French to them. Assuming that a Japanese speaks English is not much better than assuming that a French or Italian person speaks English. Almost as many don't (or not fluently at least) in any of the three countries. So, that Japanese person would certainly get frustrated after a while. Living in France and trying hard to learn French, it must be annoying when the locals reply to you in English seeing you are Asian, regardless of how good your French is. It's even more bothering if one does not speak English, or less well than French in this case. Not being a native English speaker, regardless of my English skills, I find it as bothering when I address someone in Japanese and the Japanese all assume that I speak English and reply in English (or say they can't speak English), just because I am Caucasian.

    What they difference between being a Japanese who can speak French in France, or a French speaker who can speak Japanese in Japan ? Local people shouldn't behave differently. Yet, I can tell you that nobody in France (or Belgium, Germany, Italy or whatever) will reply to you in (broken or good) English if you address them in their language with a reasonably good level (i.e. not reading from a phrasebook, but making comprehensible sentences on your own). So why do the Japanese feel they have to right to hurt foreigner's feelings and pride by basically feigning not to understand your Japanese well enough so that English is the only solution left to communicate, however poor theirs is ? How could they be so careless about other people's feelings ?

    Ironic for a country so concerned with "omoiyari" that people should lack so much what I call "kangaeyari". Omoiyari is try to feel how another would like you to do for them (e.g. offering them a present on their birthday). Kangaeyari is actually reflecting (not just feeling based on one's own emotions) about how to achieve that. In this case, having "kangaeyari" means understanding that 1) somebody who makes efforts to speak the local language does not wish to be talked to in another language, 2) not everybody may speak this other language, so there is no point assuming that the foreigner can if he/she is addressing you in your language. My entire article Things Japanese people should not say to Westerners is based on this typical Japanese lack of "kangaeyari" (a neologism of mine).

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  2. #127
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    Well then, why is it that you seem to have so many problems and I seem to have so few?

    I can only think of it as being a matter of attitude.

  3. #128
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
    Well then, why is it that you seem to have so many problems and I seem to have so few?
    I can only think of it as being a matter of attitude.
    Yeah, I have to invent problems to try to "fit in" within the group. No, just kidding (or, am I ? I'll have to scrutinize my subconscious ).

    Why don't you think it's a problem that the naijin have such a different attitude toward foreigners ? They are breaking the world harmony

    (I think I am getting a bit tired...)

  4. #129
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    Just thought Maciamo wanted to invite more Japanese, trolls or not, with his critical opinions here, but I suppose I was wrong. If he really wants to educate them, I'd start my threads in "一般的なフォーラム" here...

    Just a quick question, what do you do for your shitamachi community to "fit in"?

  5. #130
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun
    Just a quick question, what do you do for your shitamachi community to "fit in"?
    I participated to the local matsuri everytime it was held. I greet my neighbours (but rarely get more than a mumbled reply as most people are over 60 and are not well disposed toward foreigners). I learnt about the history of the neighbourhood (taught my wife about it, although she's always lived there). What could I do more that a normal citizen usually does ? What could I do if people don't even want to say "hello" ?

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I participated to the local matsuri everytime it was held. I greet my neighbours (but rarely get more than a mumbled reply as most people are over 60 and are not well disposed toward foreigners). I learnt about the history of the neighbourhood (taught my wife about it, although she's always lived there). What could I do more that a normal citizen usually does ? What could I do if people don't even want to say "hello" ?
    you're just unlucky not to have any internationl friendship loving ochan/obachan there.
    the smallest town I've ever lived was the town with its 40,000 population. for me, it is a rather small one, though some of you may think it's big.
    honestly it was a bit surprised to see people like i said above.

  7. #132
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Yeah, I have to invent problems to try to "fit in" within the group. No, just kidding (or, am I ? I'll have to scrutinize my subconscious ).

    Why don't you think it's a problem that the naijin have such a different attitude toward foreigners ? They are breaking the world harmony

    (I think I am getting a bit tired...)
    I don't have an answer any more than anyone else here, so you have tried talking about this with them I'm sure....what has the general response been ?

    Besides walking around buried in a Japanese newspaper or book never to be mistaken for an illiterate gaijin....

  8. #133
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    せっかく書き直してもらったのですが、それでもやっぱ り意味がわからないですね。
    もう一度考えて違う言い方を考えてくれますか?

    多分、騙すの使い方が違うのじゃないでしょうか?どう いう意味で「騙す」を使ったのですか?
    「黙る」ということのかな?
    前の使用には、「騙す」は困っているんですね・・・。
    でも、新しく学んで(いや、使い方、まだまだ学んでな いらしいw)、使ってみようと思って・・・。

    こうなっていたらどうかな?
    『日本人が、目知らぬGAIJINに会って、当然日本語が出 来ないと決するなんてうざい(気がちょっと違っている のに)ですね。』

    __

    Another experience: I was on the phone, and the woman was trying to explain something to me-- I told her I understood... But she seemed not to believe me.
    Anyway, after trying to explain for a while, she finally said 英語できなくてツライわ!
    It was annoying...
    これからも絶対頑張る〜

  9. #134
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    Besides walking around buried in a Japanese newspaper or book never to be mistaken for an illiterate gaijin....
    Good idea ! I never thought about it because I don't usually read while walking (a bit dangerous in Tokyo). But I could try in the neighbourhood, just to show them I can read Japanese.

  10. #135
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Btw, I was checking Google to see if somebody else had also come up with the term "naijin" and I have found an article in the Japan Times about this : You've earned it: lifetime 'gaijin' status!

    Quote Originally Posted by Japan Times
    After an extended stay in Japan, does one ever cease to regard oneself as a "gaijin" (foreigner)?
    ...
    When I first came to Japan, I was not happy with the status of "gaikokujin" and, like many naive foreigners before me, wanted only one thing: to become Japanese! I wanted to become what I call a "naikokujin." I shunned the bed for a futon, chose a tatami-style apartment over one with chairs and furniture, and vowed to sit in the "seiza" position no matter how blue my face turned. I would live only Japanese style!
    I think that summarises well how many (most of the ?) Westerners who come and live in Japan for the country itself (not for their job) think and behave when they first come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japan Times
    Although I was still a gaijin, my Japanese "naijin" friends seemed more than happy to help me make my miraculous transformation. I envisioned before and after photos: Before -- rude gaijin; after -- polite, cultured, self-effacing naijin with blonde hair.
    This may be true for some people, but in my case, I found the Japanese to be only superficially polite, rather selfish, lacking "kangaeyari" and often bad mannered (pushing in trains, bad street manners...). Of course, that is based on my experience in Tokyo (but that's still where 28% of the Japanese live or commute to).

    Quote Originally Posted by Japan Times
    Making my "inkan" in Japanese. While most foreigners have their personal stamps made in katakana, reflecting their gaijinness, my naijin coworkers were eager to translate my name into kanji characters.
    Most foreigners ? Those who come on business maybe, but I and many other Westerners have met have their hanko in kanji. It's part of the cultural experience.

    To this day, when Japanese see my stamp, they are completely baffled and cannot even begin to read it. After so many embarrassing encounters with my uniquely stamped legal documents at the bank and post office, I changed my inkan to a gaijin-friendly katakana one.
    Haha, never had any problem with mine. Fortunately, my(first) name is pretty easy to render in kanji.

    Speaking like Japanese royalty. A naijin friend of mine, while teaching me Japanese, taught me to say "go-kigen yo" instead of "konnichi wa" for "hello." This, she said, was the Japanese used by the royal family, and if I used it I would be highly regarded among regular naijin and that this would prove that I was upper class.
    I also used such expressions (e.g. "go shimpai naku") in my first year in Japan, but some Japanese just laughed when they heared me speak like that. kashii"

  11. #136
    遠いから行きません GaijinPunch's Avatar
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    One particularly surprising time was when an older Japanese man asked me for directions (in Japanese) at a packed Takananobaba JR station though.
    I can beat that. I was asked in Japanese to take a group photo... in Hawaii! The kicker was he didn't even point to the camera or hold it up or anything. It was a friends wedding... the bride was Japanese, so a large portion of the guests were Japanese. Why he didn't ask them, I'll never know. This was the bride's father, who got obscenely tanked later in the evening.

  12. #137
    ┣¨キ(*゚д゚*)┣¨キ meverieJp's Avatar
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    日本語の方が早いので、日本語で書かせてください。

    ロジカルでない日本人のmythに対しての、お怒りはごも っともです。
    私も多少覚えが� るので、それぞれにコメントさせてく ださい。
    ここでの「外国人」は主に欧米人を指します。

    gaijin cannot speak Japanese?:85%同意します。ただ、日本に数年いなが� 轣A日本語を使わなくていい環境にいるために、覚えよ� 、としない外国人がいるのも要因だという気がします。� i例:一部のニセ出稼ぎ英会話"教師"-->例:日本に数年もいて、3〜4歳児レベルの日本語。� j
    それから、白人は見てくれからして明らかに「ガイジン 」なので、その絶対数の少なさや、西欧への漠然とした 強い憧れから、かなり特異にみられてるのが一番の原因 だと思います。恐らく「きむたく」と同じ扱いで、彼ら の中で、イメージでき� がってるため、何を言っても無駄です。

    chopsticks:100%同意です。以前、同じ事をぼやいて� 「たポーランド人がいましたが、何年も日本にいるならねぇ。。

    blood type:私も時々「毎回よく飽きもせず、ホステスみたい な話をするなぁ」とは思いますが、それぐらいしか、話 の切り出し方を思いつかないんじゃないですかね。話の ネタがないというか、挨拶代わりというか。ただ、A型� AO型の割合についての勘違いは、なんとも言えません。 私は、自分の血液型を知らない人が多くて、正確に統計 取れていないと思ってました。正確な統計が� るなら、 ぜひ教えて欲しいです。(ソースも)
    (血液型のアイデアは、「血液型占い」から発祥してる と思うので、これを撲滅するには占い産業からつぶすし かない気がします。good luck)

    Japan has 4 seasons:私は、これを何らかの広告で見たと思います� B「ナンじゃこりゃ。」と思いましたが、広告には良く� る話なので、取り合いませんでした。

    いわゆる英会話学校等も、欧米人の存在を祀り上げて、 外国人差別を助長してると思いますよ。外国人を「憧れ の雲の上の存在」のままにしておいた方が儲かりますし ね。
    ただ、これを無くすと、副作用として、その恩恵を受け ているニセ英語教師は、仕事がなくなり、日本語が分ら ないフリをして故意にキセルをしたり、交通違反キップ を見逃されたりしている外国人も都合が悪くなると思い ますよ。

    眞茶摸さんが日本人に会ってるほど、西洋人に会ってい ないと思いますが、私も、似たような感じで逆に西洋人 に屈辱されたことが� りますので、この場を借りてちょ っと、言わせてもらうと:

    1) 私が、居酒屋で馬刺しを食べたとき、オーストラリア人、イギリス人、カナダ人、アメリカ人、揃 って、苦虫をつぶしたような顔をされた。隣に座ってい たオーストラリア人は、いすを移動して私から離れ、イギリス 人は、私が食べてるところの写真まで取っていた。-->私は野蛮人ですか?

    2) 持ち帰りすしを買おうとしたら、嫌そうな顔をしたので 、「好きじゃないの?」と言ったら、「生魚なんか食べ られないよ。バクテリアがいっぱいて」と言われた。-->無菌室育ちですか?

    3)「いつか鯨肉を食べてみたいなぁ」と言ったら、冷た い顔で睨まれた。-->私が野蛮人だからですか?

    ‥と、ひとつひとつ取り上げてたら限がないですが、い ずれの場合も、そのことに慣れてない、または無知だか ら起ることだと言う点では同じだと思います(mythと関 係ないかもしれませんが、根っこは似たようなもの)
    些細な事でピーピー騒ぐのが面白いので、馬刺しなど、わざと美味しそうに 食べてやりました

    単純に、そのときに、それを不愉快に思っている事を、 本人に言ったらどうでしょう?

  13. #138
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijinian
    Hmm...
    日本人は、ガイジンに騙して(『こんな使用なんて合っ てないんだかもしれない』)会う前、突然「日本人じゃ ないから日本語が出来ない」って決めるのが胡麻菓子( わかる、それ?面白い言葉ですよ)だ。
    I was just trying out some new vocab, even though I knew it made little sense. When I hear a new word or two, I try to use it/them-- just gave it a (pathetic) shot...
    哀れな言い方だったので、茶化して(Again, new word)いいヨ。笑。
    Back off on vocab acquisition for a bit and go back and review grammar and sentence structure again. You're getting ahead of yourself.

  14. #139
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
    Well then, why is it that you seem to have so many problems and I seem to have so few?

    I can only think of it as being a matter of attitude.
    It's also part and parcel of the nature of work that he does. The sooner he gets out of it, the better off he'll be.

  15. #140
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    Back off on vocab acquisition for a bit and go back and review grammar and sentence structure again. You're getting ahead of yourself.
    助言� りがとう。解ってます。サッキ、掲示しない方が 良かったですね。

    普通ならそんなに・・・不思議の話し方、使いません。
    が、間違えていても、新しく学んだ単語をすぐ使ってみ たら、ずっと覚えさせるらしいんですよ。

    常に日本語を単純化すべきだと言われますね。聞いたら どうかな・・・笑。

  16. #141
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    I agree that it is a good thing to put new vocab items to use as soon as you can.
    But I think you may have rushed through some grammar stuff that would definitely benefit from a careful review. Given your age and Japanese learning situation, you do amazingly well and I admire your efforts and accomplishments. But consider stopping moving forward for a bit and do a little backtracking.

  17. #142
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meverieJp
    ここでの「外国人」は主に欧米人を指します。
    主に欧米人なら’「外国人」の代わりに「欧米人」を使 って、褒めたい。一般の日本人には欧米人だけを思って もただ「外人」という言葉を使う。

    私は、自分の血液型を知らない人が多くて、正確に統計 取れていないと思ってました。正確な統計が� るなら、 ぜひ教えて欲しいです。(ソースも)
    統計なら簡単にウェッブで見付けられます。例えば、このサイトにはエスニックグループずつの血液型率が� ります。かなり面白い。一番AB率 が高いのはアイヌ人です(18%)。西欧州人の中には 、ドイツ、オーストリア、スイス、デンマーク、 スウェーデン、 ノルウェー、フランス、スペイン、ポルトガルのほうが、A型が一� ヤ多い、その次はO型です。オランダ、ベルギー、イギリス、アイルランドとイタリア、逆に一番多いい のはO型、その後A型.

    東アジア人、東欧州人の血液型、とても似ています。A� ^、O型とB型、すべて同じくぐらい多い。西ヨーロッパと白人のアメリカ人の少ないB型が、東ヨーロッパ、トルコ、アラブの国々、ロシア、中国、韓国、 日本、べトナム、タイとか、B型は20%から30%ま� ナの率です。

    ほかのアジア人と違って、インド人はO型とB型だけ多い (A型が少ない)。東アジア人に遺伝子的に関連してい� 驍フ北米土人はほとんど100%O型かほとんど100% A型。B型はほとんどの北米土人の中にはまったくいない 。

    これを見ても、同じ血液型のグループの国々は文化と考え方ぜんぜん違う。イタリア人とイ ギリス人はぜんぜん似ていないのに統計は似ている。ロ シア人、アラブ人、中国人と日本人も、似ていないのに 、が血液型率が似ている。オランダ人と北欧人は性格、 文化、言語と遺伝子はとても似ているのに統計が違う。

    (血液型のアイデアは、「血液型占い」から発祥してる と思うので、これを撲滅するには占い産業からつぶすし かない気がします。good luck)
    占いは論理的な(ロジカル)ことではない。けれど、い ろんな占い(例えば動物占い、血液型占いなど)を信じ るか興味が� る日本人は非常に多いと思います。僕の国 ならほとんど10年代の女の子しか信じない。それは「多 くの日本人は論理的ではない」と僕が言ったの理由の一 つです。

    1) 私が、居酒屋で馬刺しを食べたとき、オーストラリア人、イギリス人、カナダ人、アメリカ人、揃 って、苦虫をつぶしたような顔をされた。隣に座ってい たオーストラリア人は、いすを移動して私から離れ、イギリス 人は、私が食べてるところの写真まで取っていた。-->私は野蛮人ですか?

    2) 持ち帰りすしを買おうとしたら、嫌そうな顔をしたので 、「好きじゃないの?」と言ったら、「生魚なんか食べ られないよ。バクテリアがいっぱいて」と言われた。-->無菌室育ちですか?

    3)「いつか鯨肉を食べてみたいなぁ」と言ったら、冷た い顔で睨まれた。-->私が野蛮人だからですか?
    多くの欧米人は、特別に英語系のほうは、動物� 利に気 にする人が多い。ベジタリアンの人だんだん多くなって くる。特別にイギリスで。それ以上、鯨、イルカと馬は 特別な「頭いい、人間の友の動物」と思う人が多い。日 本人も犬か猫を食べたい。同じ考え方。犬と猫より、鯨 か馬のほうが頭いい動物です。僕は� まり気にしないけ どね。豚と牛も、犬か猫より脳が大きくて、頭がいいからね。そう思ったら、もうすべ ての肉食べない。

    生魚について、その人々の反応良くわからない。このサ イトの調査の結果は「寿司か刺身」、欧米人にとって一 番好きな日本料理だから。嫌い人もいるけど、寿司が嫌 い日本人と同じく、例外だと思います。

  18. #143
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijinian
    助言� りがとう。解ってます。サッキ、掲示しない方が 良かったですね。

    普通ならそんなに・・・不思議の話し方、使いません。
    が、間違えていても、新しく学んだ単語をすぐ使ってみ たら、ずっと覚えさせるらしいんですよ。

    常に日本語を単純化すべきだと言われますね。聞いたら どうかな・・・笑。
    批判したわけではないですね。
    私が使っている言葉は、日本人同士の日常会話では自然 に
    使われていないかもしれないだと思います。
    けれでも、いつも日本人、Gaijiniansan
    の皆さんは分かって下さるようで、私は感動します。

    でも、「騙す」の投稿はいくら読んでも、
    全体として意味が理解できません。
    多分とても面白いですよね。
    英語でお願いします。

  19. #144
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  20. #145
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    批判したわけではないですね。
    私が使っている言葉は、日本人同士の日常会話では自然 に
    使われていないかもしれないだと思います。
    けれでも、いつも日本人、Gaijiniansan
    の皆さんは分かって下さるようで、私は感動します。

    でも、「騙す」の投稿はいくら読んでも、
    全体として意味が理解できません。
    多分とても面白いですよね。
    英語でお願いします。
    Japanese cheat "gaijin" by assuming they cannot speak Japanese without talking to them, it's "gomakashi!"
    (前の翻訳:)日本人が外人に騙して会話しないで日本 語ができないと決するなんて胡麻菓子だ!
    話題に合っていて、さ、使ってみようと思いました。


    英語を読んだら、私の文はやっぱり間違っているんです が、多分、なぜそんなに書いたのか理解できるのかもし れませんね。

    別に、MIKEYCASHが言った通り、私の日本語の文法はと� チても困っていて、批判が必要� り、復習しなければな� 閧ワせんね。
    Last edited by Gaijinian; Oct 14, 2005 at 06:01.

  21. #146
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    Just wondering who abuses the word "gaijin"...

  22. #147
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    批判したわけではないですね。
    私が使っている言葉は、日本人同士の日常会話では自然 に
    使われていないかもしれないだと思います。
    けれでも、いつも日本人、Gaijiniansan
    の皆さんは分かって下さるようで、私は感動します。

    でも、「騙す」の投稿はいくら読んでも、
    全体として意味が理解できません。
    多分とても面白いですよね。
    英語でお願いします。
    OK, back to regularly scheduled English.

    I asked a J-friend about the earlier post and as you said, Gaijiniansan, she got it is interesting when a Japanese person decides a foreigner cannot speak Japanese from seeing them but before they actually converse.


    多分彼が言いたかったのは 「日本人は、外人と見ると 、会話もせずに日本語が出来ないと決め付けるのは、お かしい」ということでしょね?

  23. #148
    Regular Member Gaijinian's Avatar
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    See, talk, or just think of a gaijin in general.
    I don't know if I would say "interesting," but okashii seems OK.

    多分彼が言いたかったのは 「日本人は、外人と見ると 、会話もせずに日本語が出来ないと決め付けるのは、お かしい」ということでしょね?
    そうですね・・・。

  24. #149
    ┣¨キ(*゚д゚*)┣¨キ meverieJp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    占いは論理的な(ロジカル)ことではない。けれど、い ろんな占い(例えば動物占い、血液型占いなど)を信じ るか興味が� る日本人は非常に多いと思います。僕の国 ならほとんど10年代の女の子しか信じない。それは「多 くの日本人は論理的ではない」と僕が言ったの理由の一 つです。
    毎月、占いに10万円以上注ぎ込んでいる人もいるようで すので、この産業を撲滅しようとしたら、大仕事になる と思います。まず数人単位ではできませんね。人気占い 師が出演するTV番組も� りますし、その産業だけでなく 、彼らをTV番組に出演させて稼いでいるメディアからも 、反発を受けると思いますよ。
    個人的には、それが景気の追い風になるなら、カモがど こでネギ背負ってようが、どうでもいいという気がしま すが。世の中、そういう人も必要だと思いますよ。典型 的には、Luis Viton freak みたいな人。

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    多くの欧米人は、特別に英語系のほうは、動物� 利に気 にする人が多い。ベジタリアンの人だんだん多くなって くる。特別にイギリスで。それ以上、鯨、イルカと馬は 特別な「頭いい、人間の友の動物」と思う人が多い。日 本人も犬か猫を食べたい。同じ考え方。犬と猫より、鯨 か馬のほうが頭いい動物です。僕は� まり気にしないけ どね。豚と牛も、犬か猫より脳が大きくて、頭がいいからね。そう思ったら、もうすべ ての肉食べない。
    horses are friends??? Why do they kill horses on horse racing then? http://www.animalaid.org.uk/racing/
    I actually asked the brit how they deal with inferior racehorses and she said "we just shoot them down".

    My point is they should have known some of us eat horse and seen my eating horse as respectfully as I don't care if they are vegetarians/dog-eaters/cat-eaters or not. I actually didn't take it so seriously then (as I enjoy it) but, if I truly felt offended I would just tell them not to do directly in person.

    Maciamo/眞茶摸さん、志が高いのは立派ですが、これを貫徹する には(中途半端に活動しないとすれば)、敵が大きすぎる気がします。 実現性の目処は立っているんでしょうか。
    Last edited by meverieJp; Oct 14, 2005 at 09:57.

  25. #150
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meverieJp
    毎月、占いに10万円以上注ぎ込んでいる人もいるようで すので、この産業を撲滅しようとしたら、大仕事になる と思います
    This fortune-teling business could be replaced by something similar but more scientific. For example, psychological studies, or personality tests. But there are always people in every country that prefer myths to reason. Yet I have the feeling that there are proportionally much more people believing in fortune-telling than science in Japan compared to Europe (note that I did not say "compared to the USA").

    horses are friends??? Why do they kill horses on horse racing then? http://www.animalaid.org.uk/racing/
    I actually asked the brit how they deal with inferior racehorses and she said "we just shoot them down".
    Well, my mother does horse riding (not races though), and never would anyone loving horses kill a horse so easily. I have never heard of people killing horse racing either. Then, real horse lovers do Equestrianism (dressage, show jumping, etc.), not races.

    But don't forget that not everyone like horses (it's not one of my favourite animal) and Westerners also eat horse meat (especially in French speaking countries like France, Belgium or Quebec). According to Wikipedia (see link above), 153,000 tonnes of horse meat was consumed in Europe in 2001.

    My point is they should have known some of us eat horse and seen my eating horse as respectfully as I don't care if they are vegetarians/dog-eaters/cat-eaters or not.
    They know that some people eat horse also in the West. But I am sure the people you met would have reacted the same way in their own country if someone had eaten horse in front of them. I would never been allowed to order horse meat at the restaurant in my mother's presence - not even talk about it !

    Maciamo/眞茶摸さん、志が高いのは立派ですが、これを貫徹する には(中途半端に活動しないとすれば)、敵が大きすぎる気がします。 実現性の目処は立っているんでしょうか。
    Yes, I realise that.

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