Should Japan abandon the "16-rays rising sun flag" ?

[grapefruit]

The Self Defense Forces itself is military forces of the defense.
It is not a sign of friendship.
They will not violate territorial waters.

First, I agree that the SDF is not a charity organization. But, since it now engages in PKO activity, it has possibilities to get into territorial waters in parts of Asia that still harbor negative sentiments toward Japan from WWII. Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of engaging in peackeeping operations if the ship was not welcomed because it carries the rising sun flag? If I remember correctly, Japan's offer to send relief materials to China in the aftermath of the Suchuan Earthquake was turned down because of anti-Japanese sentiments held by common Chinese people. Carrying the rising sun flag is one way to brew distrust among Chinese, Koreans, and some other Asians. Since Japan wants to engage in PKO activity to improve the image of the country, isn't it counter-productive to keep the symbol?

Another reason why the idea of keeping the flag seems unattractive to me is because I do not understand why the SDF has to have a navy or army symbol. I am not naive enough to claim that the SDF is not serving as military forces. I know it is de facto military forces, but at least, on the surface, it should not be treated as a navy or an army, because the Japanese Constitution prohibits owning neither of them. So the argument that the flag has tradition does not sound constitutionally fit to me. If one wants to claim that the Japanese navy tradition needs to be maintained, the Constitution should be first changed to allow the country to own its navy. (by the way, I'm undecided on this issue.)

The flag will look like the ghost for enemy.

So, are you saying that since the flag looks like a ghost, it is OK to keep hurting others? Whether it looks like a ghost or not, intentionally tormenting others sounds awful. Japanese people all know that the flag evokes the image of Japanese imperialism. Can we find the flag employed in situations that have no association with Japanese imperialism or WWII in modern Japanese society other than the use of the flag by the SDF? Any sensible Japanese knows that the flag will be instantaneously connected in Asians’ minds to Japanese imperialism. Insisting on such a flag, even after realizing its negative impact to other Asians, seem to spell lack of chivalrousness and respect to others.

I think you should study about Sinocentrism.

The discussion probably has little bearing on Sinocentrism. Besides, any country puts itself in the center of its perspective. The US sees themselves as the police of the world. The whole pack of developed countries holds Eurocentrism. Russia wants to maintain its hegemony. Japanese, who maintain that “the shackles of sinocentrism still bind Asian countries like Korea and China,” seem that they themselves want to establish Japanocentrism. Probably Nihonjinron must have some association with that. The reason why Project X captured the hearts of so many Japanese must be relevant too. I have no qualms with such opinions. After all everyone should love their country. Nevertheless, we should all be aware of such behavior to put one’s country in the center is reciprocal. It is strange to claim Sinocentrism is/was the only view present in east Asia. Japan came to establish its knock-off version of Sinocentrism. Why do you think the post of shogun was created? 征夷大将軍, right?

Japan never complain of Textbook of other country, etc..

I think you misread my post...

If you are referring to childish behavior of China and Korea in relation to Yasukuni, textbook policy, border conflicts, and demand for apology, I have a different view on each case, and I don't have space here for explaining them. It is also inappropriate to put everything under "childish behavior". Some are childish and others are not.

I meant by this that some behaviors of China and Korea in relation to Yasukuni, textbook policy, border conflicts, and demand for apology are childish and other behaviors are not.

[caster51]

If I remember correctly, Japan's offer to send relief materials to China in the aftermath of the Suchuan Earthquake was turned down because of anti-Japanese sentiments held by common Chinese people. Carrying the rising sun flag is one way to brew distrust among Chinese, Koreans

Their face or pride seem to be more important than their ppl's rescue.
which is more important?
flag or rescue ?

Since Japan wants to engage in PKO activity to improve the image of the country, isn't it counter-productive to keep the symbol?

if they request in such condition...

I do not understand why the SDF has to have a navy or army symbol

Japanese people all know that the flag evokes the image of Japanese imperialism

there is no responsibility in symbol.
image is just image. the Japanese is realism
it can change and it can be changed..Japan should do its effort with pleasure for that

Any sensible Japanese knows that the flag will be instantaneously connected in Asians’ minds to Japanese imperialism.

I dont know what sensible Japanese means.
they may hate SDF and Japanese flag, too.
i think they like the chinese flag more than Japanese one

It is strange to claim Sinocentrism is/was the only view present in east Asia. Japan came to establish its knock-off version of Sinocentrism. Why do you think the post of shogun was created? 征夷大将軍, right?

I tnink you dont still understand it.

http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29173

[grapefruit]

Their face or pride seem to be more important than their ppl's rescue.
which is more important?
flag or rescue ?

So, that's why I say, abolish the flag and rescue them. Throw away narrow-minded pride and become a tolerant, humane, compassionate nation.

there is no responsibility in symbol.
image is just image. the Japanese is realism
it can change and it can be changed..Japan should do its effort with pleasure for that

Could you explain more on this?

I dont know what sensible Japanese means.
they may hate SDF and Japanese flag, too.
i think they like the chinese flag more than Japanese one

What a insensible thing to say. I don't know if there is anybody who does not love his/her country. Even if one says he hates it, there are always parts of him missing his motherland.

I tnink you dont still understand it.
http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29173

Could you point out exactly which parts make you think that I don't still get it? If you put it in this way, our discussion does not go anywhere. I would like to hear your opinions.

[akita]

We are talking about the 16-rays rising sun flag in this thread. Abolishing the national flag is not being discussed. So, the example of the US national flag has little significance.

It has a lot of significance since the american flag has a much stronger symbolistic in today world then an almost unknown now japanese navy flag. the significance of the flag matters for the case not that is national or not. In fact being national might be consideret even more offencive .

The true is that exept USA and some Asian countries this flag means nothing now.
Anyway try to tell indians not to use svastika now just because the nazi use it on the flag. The the sybol is actually positive for an indian and he will not give up on it just because for us is wrong.

We could ask also The arabs nt to say Allah is the only God and Mohamed is profet because the terrorist atacs.

[Azuma_Fujin]

Hi Grapefruit,

I never meant any disrespect to you in my posts, it was only my opinion.

I didn't mean you should hold anyone accountable, you may have taken me the wrong way, just expressing myself, maybe i should have been more clear.

[grapefruit]

Hi Grapefruit,
I never meant any disrespect to you in my posts, it was only my opinion.
I didn't mean you should hold anyone accountable, you may have taken me the wrong way, just expressing myself, maybe i should have been more clear.

Sure. I know it was your opinion. And, I did not think your post was disrespectful at all.

[grapefruit]

It has a lot of significance since the american flag has a much stronger symbolistic in today world then an almost unknown now japanese navy flag.

I agree that the American national flag might be taken as the symbol of the American Imperialism. And, I am aware of flag burning. But, when it comes to national flags, I take the totally opposite stance. I believe that people should respect other countries' national flags as we respect national flags and national anthems in the Olympic Games. I feel it is wrong to burn flags for any reason.

the significance of the flag matters for the case not that is national or not. In fact being national might be consideret even more offencive .
The true is that exept USA and some Asian countries this flag means nothing now.

The rising sun flag is not "an almost unknown now Japanese navy flag." Unfortunately, many people in Asia still recognize the flag. It might be insignificant in the other parts of the world as you pointed out, but in Asia it is not insignificant, and Japan is geographically located in Asia. Besides, the whole Chinese population considers it important (1/6 or 1/5 of the world population, right?). Koreans would probably care. Taiwanese, Singaporeans, Philippines, and Indonesians would possibly respond negatively. I'm not sure about Thai and other countries...sorry I'm not familiar with these countries.

Anyway try to tell indians not to use svastika now just because the nazi use it on the flag. The the sybol is actually positive for an indian and he will not give up on it just because for us is wrong.

First of all, Indian was not involved in the Holocaust. Japan was involved in the atrocities in Asia. That is why, I believe, it is controversial. No matter what excuse Japan has, if the same country which committed the atrocities insisted on using the same flag for almost the same purpose (ensign), it would be hard to convince others that its symbolic meaning is different.

Secondly, the Nazi Swastika as a flag has distinct characteristics. It is painted in black, white, and red and at a 45% rotation. Also, in India, the symbol is not limited to flag use. The SDF, on the other hand, employed for their navel ships the exact same design as before. The rising sun symbol is currently used only for flags by the SDF (except for the case of the Asahi newspaper, as far as I'm aware of ).

Thirdly, I think any sensible Indian would be considerate to the feelings of Jewish people. Indians would not insist on using the Natzi Swastika flag.

We could ask also The arabs nt to say Allah is the only God and Mohamed is profet because the terrorist atacs.

This is probably out of the scope of our discussion in this thread. It is hard to compare the meaning of flags with religious beliefs.

[caster51]

I feel it is wrong to burn flags for any reason

I dont think so
some countries dont want to see it though japan is not such childish

that's why I say, abolish the flag and rescue them. Throw away narrow-minded pride and become a tolerant, humane, compassionate nation.

Japan wanted to halp them...
which is narrow-minded pride? even they would not want to be helped without it

Japan was involved in the atrocities in Asia. That is why, I believe, it is controversial. No matter what excuse Japan has, if the same country which committed the atrocities insisted on using the same flag for almost the same purpose

it was a WAR...
so did USA

[grapefruit]

I tnink you dont still understand it.
http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29173

So, caster51-san, could you point out exactly which parts make you think that I don't still get it? I'm waiting

[caster51]

So, caster51-san, could you point out exactly which parts make you think that I don't still get it? I'm waiting

it is simple.
why does Japan care about them like Yasukuni.
it has nothig to do with them even though they dont want

what did japan agaist korea?.
korea has nothing to do with this flag and the atrocities , too

[Chidoriashi]

it is simple.
why does Japan care about them like Yasukuni.
it has nothig to do with them even though they dont want
what did japan agaist korea?.
korea has nothing to do with this flag and the atrocities , too

aghh.. this is a tired discussion. Grapefruit I recommend you do not even bother to go down this road, it won't go anywhere.

[grapefruit]

aghh.. this is a tired discussion. Grapefruit I recommend you do not even bother to go down this road, it won't go anywhere.

Thanks I'll be careful.

korea has nothing to do with this flag and the atrocities , too

It is true that Korea has little relationship with the atrocities committed by the Japanese imperial forces, but the country also has suffered from Japanese Imperialism. Since the flag is a symbol of Japanese Imperialism, their negative reaction toward the rising sun flag is understandable. But, of course, I am not happy with how they treat the Japanese national flag in protests against Japan. Granted, I still don't see any reason why Japan has to degrade oneself by behaving inconsiderately to others. I take the stance that if Japan wants China and Korea to become civilized, sensible neighbors, Japan has to act properly first as a leading model. And I know that such adequate behavior is recognized by some Chinese and Koreans (unfortunately not by the majority...yet).

[pipokun]

...
Japan has to act properly first as a leading model. And I know that such adequate behavior is recognized by some Chinese and Koreans (unfortunately not by the majority...yet).

This is the same that you intentionally ignore the fact that Japan did act as the leading model in the thread, Japan IN Asia VS Japan AND Asia.
Before Japan agreed and normalized the diplomatic relations with Korea/China, the flag had already existed.

The golden rule to win the janken, rock, paper, scissors, game is to see the result before you show your hand. Why do you think it is fair to blame the flag which had already existed before the year, 1965 for Korea and 1972 for China, NOW?

[grapefruit]

This is the same that you intentionally ignore the fact that Japan did act as the leading model in the thread, Japan IN Asia VS Japan AND Asia.

I admit that I don't remember well what I wrote in a different thread...but this is a different thread. Let's not mix posts from different threads, It would be hard to keep track on things if we kept on referring to other thread posts.

...you intentionally ignore the fact that Japan did act as the leading model...

I am not clear about what you meant by this. So, I assume you meant that Japan acted properly first but Korea and China started behaving improperly so that Japan's insistence on the flag is justifiable. It is justifiable but we can also choose to keep behaving in the civil way and choose not to insist on the flag. After all, the rising sun flag itself has little value to the majority of the Japanese people.

Before Japan agreed and normalized the diplomatic relations with Korea/China, the flag had already existed.

I have no qualms about it, but we are not talking if keeping the flag is legal or illegal. Japan has every right to keep the flag. I am simply asserting that keeping the flag has little value.

The golden rule to win the janken, rock, paper, scissors, game is to see the result before you show your hand. Why do you think it is fair to blame the flag which had already existed before the year, 1965 for Korea and 1972 for China, NOW?

I am not blaming the flag or considering that it is fair to blame the flag. Blaming is on the Japanese imperial forces. I am simply suggesting the flag is too stigmatized. Why would one like to carry a stigmatized flag?

[caster51]

I am not blaming the flag or considering that it is fair to blame the flag. Blaming is on the Japanese imperial forces. I am simply suggesting the flag is too stigmatized. Why would one like to carry a stigmatized flag?

Blaming is on the Japanese imperial forces>
what does it mean?
I dont blam on the Japanese imperial forces.

Why would one like to carry a stigmatized flag?
flag is Just flag like a name.
we cant not change even a stigmatized name for someone
I think it only does the lid to your superficial dirty thing...


The person who doesn't want to see might feel it so.

If it is a stigmatized flag, we should make it a proud one

Buraku is dirty, korean is dirty and criminal is dirty....
they have a dirty image for someone
this image leads discrimination..
it is called a principle of impurity..

[grapefruit]

Blaming is on the Japanese imperial forces>
what does it mean?
I dont blam on the Japanese imperial forces.

Really? Then, you wouldn't consider yourself as an "ultra-super-right-wing" person, would you? I'm still shocked...

If you did not agree with the claim that the blame is on the Japanese Imperial forces, I suppose there would be no point for discussion in this thread. What do you think? If I did not agree with the claim, I would not want to abolish the flag. I got the impression that we at least agreed on this

So, is it true that you take the stance that Japan does not bear any responsibility for the war crimes? A few ways to avoid the responsibility came to mind.

One way is to deny the claim, saying, "No atrocities took place." Some might even say it is all propaganda from China and Korea.

Another way to deny the responsibility is to say war always leads to atrocities, since the term atrocity is subjective. This is true, but we are not talking about whether or not it was inevitable. Japan did engage in war against China. So, I suppose somebody from Japan was responsible.

So, what is your stance on the issue?

Why would one like to carry a stigmatized flag?
flag is Just flag like a name.
we cant not change even a stigmatized name for someone

First of all, personal names and flags are different. Indeed, the SDF can change the flag legally if it wants to. No one says it is illegal. Besides, even names can be rejected if they are inappropriate. Do you remember the "悪魔君" case? (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%82%AA%E9%AD%94%E3%81%A1%E3%82%83%E3%82%93%E5%9 1%BD%E5%90%8D%E9%A8%92%E5%8B%95)

If it is a stigmatized flag, we should make it a proud one

This comment kind of suggests that you agree with that the blame is on the Japanese Imperial forces... So, I assume you admit some degree of responsibility on Japan's part and I will continue our discussion....

Here is my reply to the quoted part: it would take 100 years or more to take out the stigma. Probably, it is impossible to achieve such a goal. Think about all those negative connoted racial words, "n***er", "三国人", "Jap", etc... In theory, you could change the image, but people don't usually do that.

Buraku is dirty, korean is dirty and criminal is dirty....
they have a dirty image for someone
this image leads discrimination..

I believe the discrimination against a certain grope of people mainly causes the term for the group to pick up negative connotations. The process of the word's negative image driving discrimination is most likely to be secondary. I believe "eta" was the original stigmatized term but
the government, back then, created the non-stigmatized term. Ever since, the term has been widely used. In the process, it picked up the negative image once again, because some Japanese still discriminate against them (I heard it is particularly the case on the western side of Japan).

Also, it does not make sense to link people's reaction to the flag to discriminating words in language. The way the flag is negatively viewed has little relationship with discrimination.

it is called a principle of impurity..

I'm not familiar with that principle... Could you tell me what it is?

[caster51]

Then, do you consider yourself an "ultra-super-right-wing" person? I'm still shocked...

It was Just WAR.
of couese, there is a responsibility for them that Japan was lost...

Besides, even names can be rejected if they are inappropriate. Do you remember the "悪魔君" case?

悪魔君　has nothing to do with that?
what relation does akumakun have with flag? family name cant change
that flag is not akumakun for the Japanese.

"n***er", "三国人", "Jap", etc... In theory, you could change the image, but people don't usually do that.

I dont know n**er? ask americam
sangokujin ,Do you know what does it mean?
Jap, i dont care at all.

because some Japanese still discriminate against them

Being discriminated becomes money.
they insist it themselves because of money..

it does not make sense to link people's reaction to the flag to discriminating words in language. The way the flag is negatively viewed has little relationship with discrimination

past negative viewed as your dirty image makes discrimination in your mind.
i dont want to see it . I hate it.....
indeed Nazi's flag makes you image of racist and discrimination ,right?

So, is it true that you take the stance that Japan does not bear any responsibility for the war crimes? A few ways to avoid the responsibility came to mind.

my stance is as same as ..
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Milano-Aoyama/6915/

[grapefruit]

It was Just WAR.
of couese, there is a responsibility for them that Japan was lost...

OK. I got your view.

Being discriminated becomes money.
they insist it themselves because of money..

I wouldn't say such an awful thing to someone who has experienced discrimination. Perhaps, you have never experienced discrimination of any sort.

[caster51]

I wouldn't say such an awful thing to someone who has experienced discrimination. Perhaps, you have never experienced discrimination of any sort.

I imagin there are full of discrimination by dirty image in your background.
poor man.

[pipokun]

Grapefruit, how do you explain the following history.

1. The flag already exited in 1954 before the following peace treaties with Japan and China/Korea which ended the war and war-related reparation.
2. South Korea and Japan normalized the relations in 1965. So did it with China in 1972.
3. Mysteriously some Korean/Chinese are always pretending, I think, that Japan would have not done anything to their country after the war.

[grapefruit]

Grapefruit, how do you explain the following history.
1. The flag already exited in 1954 before the following peace treaties with Japan and China/Korea which ended the war and war-related reparation.

First, let me ensure what you meant by your first point. I gather you are pointing out the fact that China and Korea signed the peace treaties without objection to the flag Japan had already started to use by then. Is this what you meant?

To begin with, I don't understand why the peace treaties have something to do with it. We are talking about whether or not Japan should voluntarily stop using the flag, right? The Korean or Chinese government is not demanding the Japanese government to abolish the flag. So, legality has no significance. Any Japanese person can voice their opinion on the US government's possession of nuclear weapons, despite the fact that Japan signed with the US the peace treaty which contained no objection to the atomic bombs dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan did not object to the treaty, but surely people in Japan can voice their objection to the US's use of nuclear weapons.

2. South Korea and Japan normalized the relations in 1965. So did it with China in 1972.

I think the answer to Point 1 explained why these facts have little bearing to abolishing the flag.

3. Mysteriously some Korean/Chinese are always pretending, I think, that Japan would have not done anything to their country after the war.

Are you saying that some Koreans and Chinese always express the idea that Japan did not contribute to the development their countries after the end of WWII? Did you bring up this topic, because you feel personally upset by this? Grow up. There are going to be always people like that. Insisting on the flag and upsetting the entire Chinese and Korean peoples as a retaliation would be an unwise, dangerous behavior. What can we gain by reacting to narrow minded people? If Japan were to start to fall into this childish psychology of "because he did it first, I should be allowed to do it in return", isn't it the same as becoming what you called "some Korean/Chinese"?

[pipokun]

First, let me ensure what you meant by your first point. I gather you are pointing out the fact that China and Korea signed the peace treaties without objection to the flag Japan had already started to use by then. Is this what you meant?
To begin with, I don't understand why the peace treaties have something to do with it. We are talking about whether or not Japan should voluntarily stop using the flag, right? The Korean or Chinese government is not demanding the Japanese government to abolish the flag. So, legality has no significance.

It is simply because the foreign relations are based on the bilateral treaties, the treaties bind each government and the flag is not a personal one, but the official one.

You are right that the Korean/Chinese has not demanded the abolishment and all parties did not see it as an obstacle to build relations of perpetual peace and friendship between the two, so both parties reached agreements.

Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China
September 29, 1972
6. The Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China agree to establish relations of perpetual peace and friendship between the two countries on the basis of the principles of mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, mutual non-aggression, non-interference in each other's internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit and peaceful co-existence.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-pa...a/joint72.html

Let me show you a good example in this forum.
Just search a poster named Lexico here, and you will find lots of his great posts. I still highly rate his English skill as well as debating skill, but unfortunately he's gone after the Korean government disclosed its secret diplomatic documents to the public that Japan did much to his country when the both parties normalized the relations in 1965.

I just wished to see how he would reconstruct his argument after he knew the post-war fact...

I heard a lot of opinions sounding good so many times, "we forgive, but never forget", "future-oriented", and etc. It does not matter if you are "no forgive, no forget" or a history binding person and, of course, you have right to express your opinion, but I don't wrap it as "upsetting the entire Chinese and Korean peoples". The people in charge of the treaties also constituted a part of the entire Chinese/Koreans, didn't they?

Don't worry I don't think two wrongs make a right at all, but the world may be slightly better if all countries follow what Japan did and did not in the post-war period. I simply think it sounds a bit unfair if you don't take some post-war history into account.

We are talking about whether or not Japan should voluntarily stop using the flag, right?

You did not give me the answer why the great volunteer spirit you may call is applied only to Japan. I am waiting for it.

[Astroboy]

The Japanese 16-rays rising sun flag in Italy.


Some see it as a fashionable design?

[Astroboy]

Another idea to use The Japanese 16-rays rising sun flag.



In a way, it's more fashionable than other flags.

[Astroboy]

Company flag of Asashi Shimbun (newspaper), known as the most famous Pro-China newspaper in Japan, is based on The Japanese Navy's 16-rays rising sun flag.



Very ironic, isn't it?