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View Poll Results: Should Japan abandon the "16-rays rising sun flag" ?

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  • Yes, and the flag should be officially banned in public places too, as was the Nazi flag in Germany

    29 22.66%
  • Yes, it is the equivalent of the Nazi swastika flag and is unacceptable in today's world

    17 13.28%
  • Yes, because it reminds Japan's neighbours of its past atrocities

    14 10.94%
  • Probably. It would be so easy to choose another naval ensign, even the "hinomaru" flag.

    8 6.25%
  • No, there is no valid reason to change Japan's naval flag.

    43 33.59%
  • No, it is a cultural symbol of Japan('s military)

    25 19.53%
  • No it stands for Japan's eternal Empire of the Rising Sun. Banzai !

    24 18.75%
  • No idea

    9 7.03%
  • Don't give a damn about the Japanese flags

    10 7.81%
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Thread: Should Japan abandon the "16-rays rising sun flag" ?

  1. #76
    Heimin
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    who said it was ceremonial...

  2. #77
    The Hairy Wookie Mycernius's Avatar
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    Just a note for anyone interseted in Japanese flags this is a good site
    Flags of the World
    Not only does it mention the 16 ray flag, but also shows historical flags and military flags.
    I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
    Remember the Siruis Cybernetic Corportations motto: Share and Enjoy

  3. #78
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    The problem here is not what the japanese people think the flag symbolizes, its what people of other countries (namley Korea/Corea and China) think what the flag symbolizes. Many people in nations that are anti-japanese are still flaming mad at the occupation of their countries during war, and some still think that the japanese are all evil people on the brink of attacking again should they possess the strike ability to do so. By having the flag still being used on naval warships that was also used in previous wars ephasizes this point to an extent. Some people who were traumatized by the war can still hold hate when they see the flag still sailing on japanese warships. By changing the flag to the current national flag, it would try to help some anti-japanese people realize that japan does not still hold the ambitions it once held.

    In the end though, it is the japanese who have the final say in weither the flag should remain in use or not, and it is their choice how to handle it. Nothing should or will change that.

  4. #79
    #1 procrastinator masayoshi's Avatar
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    I believe they should change their naval ensign because it reminds others too much of the treacherous wartime Japan. There's the image of the kamikaze, atrocities and cruelty associated with it and it's too fresh in the minds of those who suffered.

    But whether to change or not is the choice of the Japanese. The flags associated with the other Axis countries are like taboo nowadays in those countries

  5. #80
    Horizon Rider Kinsao's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: I haven't read all pages in this thread!

    At first I was thinking, maybe the flag shouldn't be used, to show some respect to the countries which it offends. I'm not saying it means there is something 'wrong' about the flag, as such... but I can see it offends some people, so maybe it's just nicer to say, let's not use it any more (although, since when do people care about being nice? - but you see what I'm saying?).

    There is a lot of comparison with Nazi flag, where I was reading on here. I have heard recently, talk about the swastika as not a 'Nazi symbol' but it is originally a Hindu symbol (I think). And there was talk of 'reclaiming' the swastika as its original peaceful meaning/cultural significance. In fact, Hindu temples have swastika symbol above the door... and not to let Nazis claim it and make people think so many negative connotations about it, but to remember the actual origins and history of swastika.

    So, I started to change my view, and think that maybe these kinds of symbols (i.e. relatively old origin but have been appropriated for bad stuff) should be reclaimed instead. Why should these 'movements' have the small victory of ruining these things? Maybe people can become to think more widely about such things as 16-ray flag and swastika.

    I don't know the answer... but that is what I was thinking....

  6. #81
    Regular Member Keoland's Avatar
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    We have to see things from a Realpolitik perspective here: Japanese pacifism is beguinning to become a detriment, and not an asset, to the United States.

    While in the 1940s and 50s to keep Japan a peaceful state could be desired by America, in the XXIth century the absence of a willingness by Japan to be more militarily active is becoming very problematic.

    For example, the US needs troops to fight the War on Terror, especially in the Middle East. BUT North Korea also poses an *actual* threat in Asia. Not to mention that Taiwan could always use some extra support.

    In that regard, it would be good if the US could have a strong ally in the region that could make a fast military intervention if the american military is otherwise engaged elsewhere.

    Japan is perfect for that role. BUT its stance is very much limited by its constitution and pacifist tendencies.

    It naturally follows that it is in the US best interests to rekindle enough self-pride in the Japanese so that they can take independent action in the region and indeed free up US troops. Also, that would mean that no american troops would have to die to actually protect Japans' interests against terrorists, should those threats be located outside of the Home Islands.

    In addition, it would also mean that Japan could live up to its status as one of the worlds' major powers, and take active military action against terrorists and other threats, something that America is in dire need of.

    As a result, there is about zero chance that Japan would have to change its naval insignia.

    (this is also why Japan can have now officially the Kimigayo as its anthem, and why school teachers in Japan are now required to sing it in front of the hinomaru at school events. The USA and its closest allies *need* a more militarized and active Japan in the XXIst century, simple as that)

  7. #82
    wishing for a girlfriend Xkavar's Avatar
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    The USA and its closest allies *need* a more militarized and active Japan in the XXIst century, simple as that

    Forget the flag; can you pick up a rifle? ;)

  8. #83
    Regular Member Sukotto's Avatar
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    It seems like a symbol of war.
    We should ban war.



    --
    "we draw lines and stand behind them,
    that's why flags are such ugly things"
    ~pop song, north america, circa late 20th century
    Last edited by Sukotto; Aug 21, 2005 at 02:52. Reason: changed to "of" from "for"
    check out this awesome shirt.
    If You're Really a Goth, Where Were You When We Sacked Rome?
    no, i got nothing against goths. just think the shirt is neat.

  9. #84
    basketballman Dream Time's Avatar
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    i believe the flag should be officially banned in public places too.

    the 16-ray flag is a symbol of Japanese imperialism.

  10. #85
    Regular Member Sukotto's Avatar
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    You've convinced me.
    I do not believe the Japanse gov't should
    be using it. Imperialism is always wrong and there
    is no good imperialism.



    Maybe we'll have to ban the US flag as well?

    From the time before its birth, including in the US declaration of independence where
    it refers to the first nations of Norht America as (and I quote): "merciless Indian Savages"
    and used this as self-justification for continental imperialism, to the imperialism of
    Teddy Roosevelt president/ Mark Twain anti-imperialist league era, to the messy oft
    misunderstood post war era, the US has pretty much been an imperialist country
    for its entire existance. Can't miss a chance to mention this always conveiniantly forgotten history.

  11. #86
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    By that logic japans new imperialism is through bussiness and commerce.

    Well, at least thats what its trying, it was doing well one time.


    The US flag stands just as much for imperialism and bad behaviour as japans ray sun flag, and yet for all that its still just a nationsl flag, old glory is still considored a symbol of right, and things a good nation should be, it pretty much holds together the desperate parts of america by itself.

    If i remember correctly from earlier on in this thread, the ray sun flag was a naval flag?, anyway, the point is, its a flag for the navy, it doesnt actually stand for facism or nazi'ism or any given philosophy of hate, it stands for japan....and at one time japan was bad, and they were suitably punished for it (hello, nukes) but if we can demand japan gets rid of a national flag for what its ancestors did, then i could demand england gets rid of its flag for invading and pillaging scotland, indians could demand america burn old glory, infact very few countries could keep their flags.

    You cant make a state of mind and hatred into an object and then demand its destruction, that doesnt get rid of it, unfortunatly we have free will, and bad people will always be bad.

    I personally think the better way to oppose hatred is to deny it, its symbols, by taking them back, if the ray sun flag was banned, racist organizations would still carry it.

  12. #87
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Wise remarks, yes, so true, so conveniently forgotten it is ! Coming to think of it, N.Korea's been saying exactly that for the past 55 yrs, hahahaha....
    Please do not take offense, above posters. I do not mean to insult your posts, but just wanted to point out another conveniently forgotten fact of history.

  13. #88
    basketballman Dream Time's Avatar
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    the 16 sun ray flag is a naval flag, but the Japanese air force also used it, flags are not just flags, they are symbols, just like the national anthems.

  14. #89
    basketballman Dream Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    and at one time japan was bad, and they were suitably punished for it (hello, nukes)

    Japan has been punished, but they show no signs of regrets, 60 years after the war they are still denying history and refusing to apologize.
    if they want to tell the world that they have changed, they should ban the 16 sun ray flag.

  15. #90
    Regular Member Sukotto's Avatar
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    Well, I was thinking with the US - post war, a little more than
    just commerce. Although the browbeating of weaker countries into
    accepting IMF & World Bank conditions does go along these lines of
    a form of imperialism.

    More specifically I was thinking of so much harm the CIA has done
    at the behest of US presidents. Just today I picked up "All The Shah's Men",
    a book about the US overthrow of Mossadegh the democratically elected leader of Iran back in 1953. The author of this one also co-authored a book on the US coup of the democratically elected Arbenz in Guatemala in '54. Those are just two examples of out right imperialism by the US, post war.
    There's a wealth of information out there on the dirty tricks the CIA pulled.




    But back to the flag issue....

    If the Japanese gov't stopped using it officially, I do not believe
    it should be banned out right for individual use. What if there
    was a historic movie made and it was banned? Would one
    have to get a license to use such a flag? What about an independent
    film that really drills into Japan's history, say Nanking and some bureaucrat didn't happen to the topic? Maybe s/he might be a denier.

    Should the Nazi Germany flag be banned?
    I think someone posted that was a party flag first.
    In Germany it is banned and no one can display it.

    In the US how about the stars & bars of the confederate flag?
    There is much controversy surrounding that too.
    (It is actually the Confederacy's naval flag that is popular in parts)
    It keeps coming up once in a while despite being as horrid
    as the Nazi flag since the vice-president of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens had such crakka-jack stuff to say as below (from his wikipedia page):

    ---
    He went on to assert that the US Constitution with its "assumption of the equality of races" was "fundamentally wrong". "Our new [Confederate] government is founded ... upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery\subordination to the superior race\is his natural and normal condition"
    ---

    One guy online whom I debated insisted the Confederacy and the US civil war was strictly about ceceding. While I did recognize that there was more to this era that typically is taught in high school history books, I disagreed citing the above.

    Given that that is what they claimed of the Confederacy at the time,
    that is what the flag stood for that - the delusion of white supremacy.
    The flag is bad blood among some who view it as a symbol of slavery and others who say it is a "symbol of their heritage".
    **You mean your slavery heritage?**


    IMO, that flag has been Cartoon-ized by the popular US television program
    "The Dukes of Hazard", and has lost some of its bad connotation among some people. To them it may just be viewed as a symbol of rebellion.


    While I don't believe this flag should be banned,
    I do believe it and other Confederacy symbolism should be removed from certain southern states flags.


    Does that add anything to the discussion or is it just me liking
    the sound of my own fingers typing?

  16. #91
    Regular Member Sukotto's Avatar
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    nurizeko,

    Speaking of flags, I see that you use the Scottish flag instead of the union jack
    which, is either the flag for Great Britain or the United Kingdom.
    (I just found out the difference last year.)

    Forgive me, I don't mean to "press any buttons",
    I'm just wondering if you hold more loyalty to Scotland
    and if so why.
    And also if there are people of Scotland,
    England, or Wales who would want those areas to be independent.
    What are the dynamics between the areas and GB or UK?
    Maybe these are ridiculous questions?

    (note: I know little to nothing about N Ireland despite it being
    in the news often over the years. International news in
    the US corporate media is aweful. Almost no background or history.
    In depth reporting? Yah, right.)

  17. #92
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Time
    Originally Posted by nurizeko
    and at one time japan was bad, and they were suitably punished for it (hello, nukes)


    Japan has been punished, but they show no signs of regrets, 60 years after the war they are still denying history and refusing to apologize.
    if they want to tell the world that they have changed, they should ban the 16 sun ray flag.
    America has displaced and killed countless native americans, fought many foreign wars, not all conveniently justifiable as un-assailably good, more recent examples of america's less then stellar behaviour having been civilian casualties in its more recent modern war expiditions, i agree that not all japanese show regret, but setting aside the fact most japanese accept their country paid the price for its arrogance and now detach themselves from the issue and just get on with things, America doesnt make a habit of regretting and apologising in any meaningful way for the lives its military has destroyed, for the wrongs its caused....Waving old glory doesnt excuse american military from the bad things they sometimes do, even if they arent the norm.

    If japan must constantly be expected to bedn over and take it and do what everyone tells them and abandon a symbol of their nation, then i put it to you america must forever more erase old glory from the world.


    No?...why?....it doesnt matter, you could give me an endless essay of why america deserves to keep its flag and i would agree within the first few, the point is japan is entitled to its national symbols as much as america is to its flag, to its july the 4th, to its american pie and american dream and everything else that represents the nation and people of america.


    As for Sukotto, far from pressing buttons you've presented me a very interesting question.

    I guess in my hearts of hearts i considor myself scottish.
    i love scotland, and its countryside, i love the culture and the fact the people seem robust and friendly, a "wild" country thats not always been considored the heart of civilization like rome or france, but nether the less has a strong cultural identity of its own and a peoples pride of their heritage.

    You would have to be scottish really to understand it, or better yet, if you belong to a nation, ask yourself why you love your country and that should give you some idea of why i love mine.

    Scotlands always had a strong national identity, we've been an independent nation, and it was only a few hundred years ago i think when a scottish king was given the english crown and the treaty of union between england and scotland that the united kingdom was formed.

    Just the general things that you expect of all nations and peoples, we have our own histories and geography and ethnic make-up...granted were as white as any european, but for one example we wernt invaded by germanic tribes like england so, by cultural and linguistic reasons alone we can claim our own national identity.

    Theres independence parties in all of britains nations that together create the united kingdom, except for england, i think, and at the momment they still quite a bit from acheiving independence for their respective countries but, scotland and wales have devolved government (as example scotland has its own seperate parliament).

    Britain in general gets along quite well, we have our own seperate national identities but for the most part, we all still recognise shared geohraphy (the british isles) and some history (were all on the same island so, we;ve all interacted with each other), the same language, english (we have seperate national languages but they arnt widely spoken, and most folk speak english).

    So saying that, i DO considor myself british, and i hold the union jack in high regard, alongside the saltire (scottish flag) but it depends really.

    For foreigners and in general i will say im british but i still feel deepest down that if i had to choose between the UK and scotland, i would choose scotland.

    I guess its like texans, they have a strong identity as texans, they considor themselves americans, but they still hold the texan identity.

    At least thats how i see it, could be wrong.

  18. #93
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    A Statement to Clear Sukotto's Name

    I feel the need to make a statement so that my post above be not misconstrued as making any kind of association with Sukotto and communism or any communist party that had ever been in existence either in or out of US territory ever. I feel the need as anti-communism, sad to say, is still used as a common means of depracating a political foe in the public's eye, (and possibly legally, also, for reasons of national defense). No one, either of the Democratic, Republican, or a non-affiliated political trend, should ever use my post to criticise Sukotto, for I shall sue whoever does so for infringement of my copyright, and give whatever assistence I can possibly give to Sukotto. I have made my warning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukotto
    From the time before its birth, including in the US declaration of independence where
    it refers to the first nations of Norht America as (and I quote): "merciless Indian Savages"
    and used this as self-justification for continental imperialism, to the imperialism of
    Teddy Roosevelt president/ Mark Twain anti-imperialist league era, to the messy oft
    misunderstood post war era, the US has pretty much been an imperialist country
    for its entire existance. Can't miss a chance to mention this always conveiniantly forgotten history.
    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    Wise remarks, yes, so true, so conveniently forgotten it is ! Coming to think of it, N.Korea's been saying exactly that for the past 55 yrs, hahahaha....
    Please do not take offense, above posters. I do not mean to insult your posts, but just wanted to point out another conveniently forgotten fact of history.
    The reasoning that two legal bodies each making a statement of equivalent content are connected in reality NEVER has general validity on logical or historical grounds. To claim so would be equivalent to saying that the winged Pterodactyl and the feathered birds are more closely related than the snake and the crocodile just because they share wings for aviation; or the fish and the whale are more closely related than humans and the whale just because they swim in the water.

    Two totally different systems of thought can and will often produce the same observation on one single historical phenomenon if they are doing a scientific/objective and logical analysis on the sukject. One principle of scientific studies; regardless of means of analysis, the results should converge if the studies are done right. Agreement on fact is hardly enough evidence to claim that Sukotto is in any way connected to the communist party or communist ideas.

    Some individuals and groups are just more objective than others with a vested interest, whether personal, political or ideological. Anyone who does not have the brains to see that, (s)he deserves to be condemned irrational, deluded, and unfit for political debate, not to mention a position of public service.

  19. #94
    Regular Member Sukotto's Avatar
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    I tried to click a smilie in here, one that looked kinda embarrassed,
    but the new OS or browser we've temporarily got isn't taking it.

    he he. I didn't expect that.

    But, if history is any teacher, than perhaps the patriot act might
    be used for what the US gov't did under a program the fbi called
    "cointelpro'. They went after people just because they didn't like
    their politics. And there have been peace activists put on no fly
    lists for what turned out to be no rational reason.

  20. #95
    The Geezer Sensuikan San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masayoshi
    I believe they should change their naval ensign because it reminds others too much of the treacherous wartime Japan. There's the image of the kamikaze, atrocities and cruelty associated with it and it's too fresh in the minds of those who suffered.

    But whether to change or not is the choice of the Japanese. The flags associated with the other Axis countries are like taboo nowadays in those countries
    The last sentence is actually not quite true, inasmuch as the flag of Italy is unchanged except for the absence of the coat of arms of the House of Savoy ... due to the fact that Italy is now a republic, and no longer a monarchy. the absence of the coat of arms has absolutely nothing to do with a disassociation with Fascism - indeed, Italy never adopted a different flag during the Fascist period. As far as I'm aware the only things that changed were aircraft National markings (which displayed fasces quite prominently) .

    With regard to the Japanese flag - I (guardedly...) feel that there is a distinction between it and the German Nazi Banner. The latter was undeniably associated with the Nazi partei - having been used at no time prior to the creation of that particular political group. It was contrived, created and displayed purely to emphasize "National Socialism" in Germany and later, the World at large.

    In contrast - the Japanese "Rising Sun" ensign - although associated with WWII - was actually in use and a National Emblem long before the atrocities and events of the period under discussion.

    Therefore - why should it be held in lesser regard than the Italian Tricolore ?

    Perhaps it is just a poor old flag with a strong and proud history ... that just happened to be "in the wrong place at the wrong time" ... ?

    You certainly can't say that about the Nazi German flag ! ... and you probably can't say that about the "Stars and Bars" either ...!

    (What bugs me is the fact that ... they're all very striking designs, aren't they !)

    ...Just a thought ....

    W
    Why have an electric toothbrush ... if you don't have electric teeth?

  21. #96
    basketballman Dream Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    America has displaced and killed countless native americans, fought many foreign wars, not all conveniently justifiable as un-assailably good, more recent examples of america's less then stellar behaviour having been civilian casualties in its more recent modern war expiditions, i agree that not all japanese show regret, but setting aside the fact most japanese accept their country paid the price for its arrogance and now detach themselves from the issue and just get on with things, America doesnt make a habit of regretting and apologising in any meaningful way for the lives its military has destroyed, for the wrongs its caused....Waving old glory doesnt excuse american military from the bad things they sometimes do, even if they arent the norm.

    If japan must constantly be expected to bedn over and take it and do what everyone tells them and abandon a symbol of their nation, then i put it to you america must forever more erase old glory from the world.


    No?...why?....it doesnt matter, you could give me an endless essay of why america deserves to keep its flag and i would agree within the first few, the point is japan is entitled to its national symbols as much as america is to its flag, to its july the 4th, to its american pie and american dream and everything else that represents the nation and people of america.
    um...i'm not an American, i'm a Chinese Canadian..so i don't really care if US changes its flag..however i would like to see China change its flag coz its a symbol of Communism and millions of Chinese people died under Mao's reign. as for Japan, i think they should ban the 16 sun ray flag to show the world that they are not the Imperial Japan that they once was.

  22. #97
    Custom Graphix Artist Martialartsnovice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Time
    however i would like to see China change its flag coz its a symbol of Communism and millions of Chinese people died under Mao's reign. as for Japan, i think they should ban the 16 sun ray flag to show the world that they are not the Imperial Japan that they once was.
    I agree with you on this topic. I think it should also be changed, or China itself should show the world, that its no longer a communistic Nation. THe Japanese should retain their flag, as a symbol of national pride, as others have said already. The world, as a community needs to forgive Japan. Yes the people who ordered the actions taken in Manchuria, Korea, and other places have either gone to the grave, or have been punished.

    The world, needs to accept the fact that Japan, is a changed nation. Its true, that Japan is ignoring its past actions, could it be that many are ashamed of their country's past. Its up to them, to choose which path they travel down.
    gTo every man there comes a time in his lifetime that special moment when he is figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered the chance to do a very special thing unique to him and fitted to his talent; what a tragedy if that moment finds him unprepared or unqualified for the work which would be his finest hour.h

    Sir Winston Churchill

  23. #98
    Custom Graphix Artist Martialartsnovice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    By that logic japans new imperialism is through bussiness and commerce.

    Well, at least thats what its trying, it was doing well one time.


    The US flag stands just as much for imperialism and bad behaviour as japans ray sun flag, and yet for all that its still just a nationsl flag, old glory is still considored a symbol of right, and things a good nation should be, it pretty much holds together the desperate parts of america by itself.

    If i remember correctly from earlier on in this thread, the ray sun flag was a naval flag?, anyway, the point is, its a flag for the navy, it doesnt actually stand for facism or nazi'ism or any given philosophy of hate, it stands for japan....and at one time japan was bad, and they were suitably punished for it (hello, nukes) but if we can demand japan gets rid of a national flag for what its ancestors did, then i could demand england gets rid of its flag for invading and pillaging scotland, indians could demand america burn old glory, infact very few countries could keep their flags.

    You cant make a state of mind and hatred into an object and then demand its destruction, that doesnt get rid of it, unfortunatly we have free will, and bad people will always be bad.

    I personally think the better way to oppose hatred is to deny it, its symbols, by taking them back, if the ray sun flag was banned, racist organizations would still carry it.
    Hey Now,

    In America, We have the stars and stripes to symbolize the 13 original colonies.

    What happened to the Native Americans, is unreversable. Most was commited before all of us were born.

    Im Scottish, and I have studied the History, of the war between King Edward, or Longshanks if you prefer, and the Scots. Its a record of many outright unforgivable acts. The English, had no reason to invade, and conquer Scottish lands. Many of the Scottish Lords, so out their own people for hereditary titles and lands in England.

    Im also Irish, so that give me the right to burn Scotland and England to the ground, for the practice of shipping their debtors to Eire, and having them farm Irish lands. NO!


    What people in the past did, the future cant be accountable for. The US did have a empire, So did Great Britan, France, Germany, and every nation at one time. But what is done is done, and theres no use crying over spilled milk, you just clean it up and move on, which is what most of the world needs to do about their hatred of the Japanese Naval Flag, or the US Flag, or German Nazi Flag.

    On another note, the statement you posted in dealing with Hatred. I will say this, if a country were to ban it, it would slowly boil over in the shadows until its burst from its lair. Then its to late to contol or avert it.

  24. #99
    Regular Member
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    Apr 23, 2005
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    Well in a country 'like' Japan these people get offended when you say you don't like natto and they think you should go to another country.....mindless, particularly this Eisuke character.
    The fact is the Japanese lack imagination so they have one of the most simplistic flags on earth and due to this lack of imagination they keep using this hinomaru to remind their neighbours and oh yeah those arseholes who ride around the centre of Tokyo shouting through loudhailers and hanging out the flag a disgrace!

  25. #100
    kakera Katrean Shard's Avatar
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    Dec 1, 2005
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    2
    It is only the Maritime Self Defense Forces flag. I see no need they would have stop it flying. Each country has some several flags or ensigns for military divisions. These were possible all bad for happening or action in the past associated, because military is violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
    its a flag for the navy, it doesnt actually stand for facism or nazi'ism or any given philosophy of hate
    I agree with that above.
    And also I agree with...

    You cant make a state of mind and hatred into an object and then demand its destruction, that doesnt get rid of it
    Sadly it is true.

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