Should Japan abandon the "16-rays rising sun flag" ?

[Maciamo]

But Tibet was forcebly taken over by China. Doesn't that fall into the same criteria as areas of China that were invaded by Japan? The peope killed in Tibet by Chinese troops were not Chinese citizens.

Technically they were Chinese after the annexation of Tibet. Not ethnically Han, but there are many more ethnic minorities in China than the Tibetans. In fact there are 8 ethnic minorities with more people than the 5 million Tibetans (see demographics of China). But there are already people fighting for the rights of the Tibetans, sponsored by celebrities like Richard Geere. In fact, in Western countries we always hear about China and Tibet, but rarely about Japan and East Asia (at least that's my impression).

But my point is essentially that reguardless of where the pressure comes from nothing will change untill the hearts and minds of people change. Right now I have seen no evidence that the Japanese are wiling to address the issue at all, other than as a responce to external presure - It's a bandaide effect and they are not seeing it as something within their culture they even need to face.

I agree. That's why I am trying to sensivitise them to the issues at stake. But I think it's a lost cause in the current circumstances.

[Ikyoto]

Not lost, just something that will take a LONG time. You are trying to change a mindset that has developed over thousands of generations. I have learned that other cultures do not understand how the US people can be so diverse - it's because we're the newest kids on the block!

Patience. It's something we all want and want right now!

[bossel]

Yeah Hiroshi, The Reich at its highest point of expansion covered France, Belgium, German Holdings in Africa and Asia, Poland, and Part of the western Soviet lands.

You too?
I understand that you & Hiroshi are still in your teens. Where did you get this "info" from? From some popular (but rather un-scientific) website or magazine? Or from your history textbooks at school? If it's the latter, perhaps you should talk to your teachers about purchasing more accurate textbooks.

The 3rd Reich never encompassed France or Belgium, even less parts of Africa. & may I ask, where this idea of holdings in Asia comes from? (I can't remember any Nazi occupation in Asia)
Northern France (& the Atlantic coast areas) was occupied, but not incorporated, except for Alsace-Lorraine.
Belgium was also occupied, but only the areas around Eupen & Malmedy were integrated into the Reich.

For the rest look at the attached pic & its legend (sorry, no time to combine it into one pic). It's a bit more complicated than I explained, but I suppose, you'll get the gist.

[Ikyoto]

I see the problem. They equate occupation with being integrated.

[bossel]

I see the problem. They equate occupation with being integrated.

Yep, & not only occupation. Some obviously even count allied nations as integral part of the Reich.

I can only guess that it might be related to those maps which simply show one big red (or whatever colour) zone in Europe & mark it with a swastika. I've seen similar maps in German history textbooks, but at least the texts & teachers explain it in much greater detail.

[Martialartsnovice]

I see a flaw in your thinking though, Bossel. Im half German, and Ive studyed WW2, I have Great uncles and a great grandfather who fought at Battle of the Bulge, in France, Czechoslavakia, Holland, Germany, and across Western Europe. In America the AP/Honors Histry classes teach us that the Allies of the Reich, were in politics considered by the Alies as PART of THE Reich, I aso have had a German Teacher tell me that the Reich used its Allies as platforms to launch attacks and counter measures, so I dont quite understand were your logic is coming from, but I d know this, that the Reich controlled most of Europe during the WW2.

[bossel]

In America the AP/Honors Histry classes teach us that the Allies of the Reich, were in politics considered by the Alies as PART of THE Reich, I aso have had a German Teacher tell me that the Reich used its Allies as platforms to launch attacks and counter measures, so I dont quite understand were your logic is coming from, but I d know this, that the Reich controlled most of Europe during the WW2.

"considered by the Alies as PART of THE Reich"
To consider sth. as such does not mean that it actually was part of the Reich.
The situation as I explained above applies. It was even more complicated than what I said, because there was a variety of territories where German laws & regulations applied to differing degrees. In independent nations, as most of the German allies were (most of the time), no German laws applied.

Whether the Reich controlled most of Europe once in a while is a different question. I doubt, that even this rather loose definition would hold true (for simply geographic reasons, Europe reaches up to the Ural).

Anyway, the Greater German Reich never encompassed most of Europe, regardless of what the Western Allies considered.

Regarding "the Reich used its Allies as platforms to launch attacks" I would like you to ask yourself how your logic applies. Since the US used eg. Saudi Arabia as a platform to attack Iraq, does that mean that SA is part of the USA (well, the letters are )?

[Martialartsnovice]

Well, Maybe you or some of the others who share your views, should contact the US Textbook publishers and tell them to stop printing this misinformation, that is taught to American students. I say this not to offend but to help stop the flow of misinformation, cant the german govt intercede and get the publishers to correct their errors.

[bossel]

Well, Maybe you or some of the others who share your views, should contact the US Textbook publishers and tell them to stop printing this misinformation, that is taught to American students. I say this not to offend but to help stop the flow of misinformation, cant the german govt intercede and get the publishers to correct their errors.

I suppose, since you're in the US & actually have access to the books (& teachers involved in spreading the stuff) it would be much easier for you to do so.

[Martialartsnovice]

Im only a student in a crowd of thousands around the country so I wont be given much thought

[Martialartsnovice]

I suppose that my logic in the statement in Post #56, was a little shaky in sens eof allies and platforms.

[Martialartsnovice]

I have one theory that I have heard, htat the 16 rays of the flag are representing the 16 major provinces or clan territories. To everyone this is a theory, not a statement, so I posted it here to ask this question, how many Major Clans were their in Japan, at the adoption of the flag.

[cyber ape]

Just no.

Seriously, I was truly offended when I learned Georgia's flag used to have the Confederate flag, a flag symbolizing slavery of African-Americans, as well as rebellion.

Japanese might isn't even close to what it used to be, and, furthermore, that just paints a poor picture of Japan's jingoism.

Of course, if they lost the flag, Shorty's would need a new Skateboard

[Tim33]

The national flag of Japan, known as the Hinomaru (日章旗 or 日の丸の旗 "sun disc") in Japanese, is a base white flag with a large red disc (representing the sun) in the centre. A legend says that its origins lie in the days of Mongol invasions of Japan in the 13th century, when the Buddhist priest Nichiren was supposed to have offered the sun disc flag to the Emperor of Japan, who was considered a descendant of the sun goddess Amaterasu. In fact the sun disc symbol is known to have been displayed on folding fans carried in the 12th century by samurai involved in the feud between the Taira and Minamoto clans. It was widely used on military banners in the Sengoku ("Warring States") period of the 15th and 16th centuries. Subsequent Shogunates established it as the flag to be flown from Japanese ships.

By the time of the Meiji Restoration of 1868, it came to be regarded as the national flag. Though the sun disc design was officially adopted for use in naval flags in 1870, it was not formally adopted as the national flag until August 13, 1999 by a decree that also confirmed its exact dimensions. A well known variant is the sun disc with 16 red rays which was historically the flag for use in Japan's military until the end of World War II.

I cant for the life of me find out about the history of the 16 rays

[Martialartsnovice]

Yeah, Ive looked around the internet and theres no mention of any reason for the flags design.

[nurizeko]

the nazi flag is the symbol of facism

rising sun flags are national flags of japan, which though misguided in the side it chose on the war, nether the less, is still just a national flag.

so no, dont get rid of it.

[Martialartsnovice]

Yeah, But History has recorded over and over what happens when crackpots are given power over the masses.

[Bramicus]

The rising sun flag was first adopted by the Imperial Navy (then Army) under Meiji, at the time of the first Sino-Japanese War (1894-95).

In that case no, it should not be banned. It wasn't adopted as a specific symbol of a fascist ideological movement as is the case with the Nazi flag, but as a national symbol only. (Not the national flag symbol, but a national flag symbol -- got to be really careful about terminology on this forum.)

As for how angry it makes other countries who remember the brutal occupation, etc., there's a lot more burning of the American flag these days than there has ever been of any Japanese flag, and a lot more anger around the world directed at America. So I guess by that standard United States would have to ban its flag as well.


Looks like the poll results so far (38 voters, not 32) are:

Keep the flag -- 55%
Ban the flag -- 34%
No opinion -- 11%

[Bramicus]

In fact, in Western countries we always hear about China and Tibet, but rarely about Japan and East Asia (at least that's my impression).

Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that China is still occupying Tibet today, while Japan hasn't occupied East Asia for the past 60 years -- or is there a Japanese occupation of East Asia going on that I don't know about?

[Inuyasha-the-kid]

That was the main flag and it shouldn`t be banned

[Gaijinian]

I voted probably, but have come to conclude that it should be banned because of it's direct association with WWII Japanese imperialism. I also think it would ease tension with it's neighbors.

Off topic:
It is not odd that 万was once 卍, meaning Banzai could be '卍歳?' No wonder Japan sided with the Nazis...

EDIT: I just notices my avatar...

Maybe I'm a bit of a hippocratic...

Changed it!

[Martialartsnovice]

Hey everyone needs some comedy, though I think it should be left as it is. I read that it stems from an earlier era before the imperialism, and Meiji restoration.

[Warlock]

we should abandon all flags and burn them and hold hands as we jump into the sea..

[Martialartsnovice]

But if we did, what would we do if a ceremony needed a national flag, or at the UN, with all the flags they display.

[Mycernius]

How about "No, because I'm tired of PC Thought Police BS"

I tend to agree here. As for the argument that it represents Japanese imperialism and should be banned then why not ban the French, British and Spanish flags. After all their imperialism was brutal in some countries.
The Nazi flag was a flag of a political party, not a national flag. It became a national flag when the Nazis took power. The 16 ray flag is an ensign in the same way that the Jack of any navy is a ensign. It doesn't mean anything political.