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View Poll Results: Should Japan abandon the "16-rays rising sun flag" ?

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  • Yes, and the flag should be officially banned in public places too, as was the Nazi flag in Germany

    29 22.66%
  • Yes, it is the equivalent of the Nazi swastika flag and is unacceptable in today's world

    17 13.28%
  • Yes, because it reminds Japan's neighbours of its past atrocities

    14 10.94%
  • Probably. It would be so easy to choose another naval ensign, even the "hinomaru" flag.

    8 6.25%
  • No, there is no valid reason to change Japan's naval flag.

    43 33.59%
  • No, it is a cultural symbol of Japan('s military)

    25 19.53%
  • No it stands for Japan's eternal Empire of the Rising Sun. Banzai !

    24 18.75%
  • No idea

    9 7.03%
  • Don't give a damn about the Japanese flags

    10 7.81%
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Thread: Should Japan abandon the "16-rays rising sun flag" ?

  1. #26
    Regular Member Eisuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Another strange thing is that now the SDF and Navy use slightly different flags, but they don't mention the Air Force. From the picture I posted above, they also use the 16-ray version (and so did some kamikaze).
    The Japanese Navy has the same flag as the one first used by them on 7 October 1889.
    Yes the Japanese airforce and army also use the 16 ray Japanese flag sometime because it is also regarded as the flag of Japan "at war". Here is a picture of the Japanese army tank with the flag:
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  2. #27
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    Bossel ~ you reply just to disect every word of my post, don't you? Fun to be you...

    The first German Republic was the government that existed roughly between 1918 through 1933 when the Nazi Party seized power.

    What do the Armenians feel about that? Here's some news - I am Armenian. And I don't really care. Because Turkey is entitled to its own flag. Its symbolism. But this conversation is not about the Armenian Genocide.

  3. #28
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    i dunno why the labels for this *old cheese* are ever and more ever overduplicated. especially stirring in other countries "coffins in the cellar".

    if i would be a japanese emperor, why not to make up a new flag symbolizing mt. fuji? to give japan modern thrive.

  4. #29
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    The thing is that the Japanese flag is historical.. its not something created for the sake of World War II. True, the Hinomaru and the naval ensign were created by rescript in 1889, but the Hinomaru especially have older origins. Many trading ships which sailed to Siam and Luzon used this. For example, I know the current Korean flag (with the white background) has been in use since around 1897, but the design has ancient origins. If we're deciding that countries should have theirflags changed because of past atrocities is correct, than all countries need to change their flags.

  5. #30
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    Bossel ~ you reply just to disect every word of my post, don't you? Fun to be you...
    Well, if you would take greater care in writing your posts, it wouldn't be so easy to dissect them.

    The first German Republic was the government that existed roughly between 1918 through 1933 when the Nazi Party seized power.
    Well, you said "Second West German Republic after WWII", so I would like to know the "[First] West German Republic after WWII." Weimar was not West German, anyway, but included all (what was left) of Germany.

    What do the Armenians feel about that? Here's some news - I am Armenian. And I don't really care. Because Turkey is entitled to its own flag. Its symbolism.
    You don't care, interesting. & you are representative of Armenians? "L'état, c'est moi!"
    Anyway, if Armenia & Armenians don't have a problem with the Turkish flag, it's not a problem for Turkey. But, if Koreans & Chinese have a problem with the Japanese war flag, then Japan has a problem to think about.

    But this conversation is not about the Armenian Genocide.
    But it is about the Turkish flag?

  6. #31
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    You've gotten me really ticked off lately. And you're an Advisor? At the message board I moderate, I'd expect to get banned for talking like this to a member. And if I was an admin I would ban a moderator for talking like this.

    The Second Republic was in West Germany, unless you would call the regime in East Germany a republic.

    Armenians don't care about the Turkish flag. We care about how Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide and how most of Eastern Turkey is part of Western Armenia. Yes, it is about the Turkish flag. That is because we are discussing the flag of Japan and how some think it should be changed because it is associated with war and atrocities.

  7. #32
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    You've gotten me really ticked off lately. And you're an Advisor? At the message board I moderate, I'd expect to get banned for talking like this to a member. And if I was an admin I would ban a moderator for talking like this.
    I suppose, your message board is rather restrictive.

    The Second Republic was in West Germany,
    Ah, now that sounds a bit different than "Second West German Republic after WWII", doesn't it?

    unless you would call the regime in East Germany a republic.
    Of course it was a republic.

    Armenians don't care about the Turkish flag.
    Good on you, although it seems that at least some Armenians have an issue there. Look at the attached pic of a T-shirt sold by Armenians in Pasadena.

    We care about how Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide and how most of Eastern Turkey is part of Western Armenia. Yes, it is about the Turkish flag. That is because we are discussing the flag of Japan and how some think it should be changed because it is associated with war and atrocities.
    Logic? Discussing the Japanese war flag (we are not discussing the national flag, if you didn't notice), because it is related to atrocities.
    Yes, it is about the Turkish flag, but not because it is connected to the Armenian genocide? Why then?
    Perhaps the oppressive regime in occupied Europe, or the treatment of Kurds? Or because you just felt like mentioning it?

    Again, since you obviously didn't notice, it is about the victims (the countries/peoples invaded & occupied)! If the people in countries that suffered Turkish atrocities don't have a problem with the flag, the Turks are lucky. But since there are obviously a lot of people who have an issue with the Japanese war flag, Japan needs to weigh the pros & cons of retaining a symbol of aggression.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    I suppose, your message board is rather restrictive.
    At least its better than having people like you as mods though.


    Ah, now that sounds a bit different than "Second West German Republic after WWII", doesn't it?
    Not really. Second West German republic and Second republic in West Germany...


    Of course it was a republic.
    Why?


    Good on you, although it seems that at least some Armenians have an issue there. Look at the attached pic of a T-shirt sold by Armenians in Pasadena.
    Funny! We see a lot of those t-shirts. If you read the captions, you would see that it is desginated against Turkey. The Turkish flag represents the Turkish nation. We wouldn't care if the Turks keep their flag - we want representation. If you'd like - I will ask my hardcore nationalist friends their opinion tommorow and we'll see if your "opinion" is correct.


    Logic? Discussing the Japanese war flag (we are not discussing the national flag, if you didn't notice), because it is related to atrocities.
    Yes, it is about the Turkish flag, but not because it is connected to the Armenian genocide? Why then?
    Perhaps the oppressive regime in occupied Europe, or the treatment of Kurds? Or because you just felt like mentioning it?
    Oppressive regime in occupied Europe?

    Again, since you obviously didn't notice, it is about the victims (the countries/peoples invaded & occupied)! If the people in countries that suffered Turkish atrocities don't have a problem with the flag, the Turks are lucky. But since there are obviously a lot of people who have an issue with the Japanese war flag, Japan needs to weigh the pros & cons of retaining a symbol of aggression.
    Wow bossel, you get nastier and nastier everyday...

  9. #34
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    The thing is that the Japanese flag is historical.. its not something created for the sake of World War II.
    That is where you are mistaken. The flag was only created in 1889. WWII refers mainly to the European conflict from 1939 to 1945 and the Pacific War between the US and Japan. However, from an Asian point of view, the war with Japan started with the first Sino-Japanese war of 1894-95, then the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), immediately follwed by the occupation of Korea (1905-1945), then of Manchuria (1931-1945), the second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), then only the invasion of S-E Asia and the war with the US from 1942 to 1945. It was all part of the Meiji militarists's project of Great Japanese Empire (‘å“ú–{’鍑). It is those people zho created the Rising Sun Flag in 1889 - it just didn't exist before (or do you have evidence that could prove me wrong).

    True, the Hinomaru and the naval ensign were created by rescript in 1889, but the Hinomaru especially have older origins.
    So what ? That is exactly why I did not talk about abandonning the Hinomaru, but only the militarist Rising Sun flag of the "Great Japanese Empire".

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  10. #35
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    You've gotten me really ticked off lately. And you're an Advisor? At the message board I moderate, I'd expect to get banned for talking like this to a member. And if I was an admin I would ban a moderator for talking like this.
    I really don't see what Bossel said wrong. You are the one to provoke him.

    The Second Republic was in West Germany, unless you would call the regime in East Germany a republic.
    No ! Between 1918 and 1933 there was only the Weimar Republic comprising the whole of Germany. The division between East and West only happened in 1945, then the Cold War started.

    Wow bossel, you get nastier and nastier everyday
    Hiroshi, there was no problem with Bossel's reply, but you will get banned if you don't behave and keep insulting moderators.

  11. #36
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    Maciamo - its mostly in History and Traditions. You can go read my "Imperial Princes" topic there for more information. Very hositle and downright rude attitude. I am the one to provoke him? I doubt it - I posted a simple topic there and two members (one of which is bossel) practically attacked me there.

    Did I say that? The Weimar Republic did comprise all of Germany - and the Nazi state comprised that and most of Europe from 1933 to 1945. The Second Republic(s) lasted from 45 to 90. Reinstated Germany is the newly reunified country.

  12. #37
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    Did I say that? The Weimar Republic did comprise all of Germany - and the Nazi state comprised that and most of Europe from 1933 to 1945.
    I can see your bad faith here. I doubt that yo knew that the Weimar Republic (which name you didn't use) comprise the whole of Germany if you say think that the Nazi state comprised most of Europe from 1933. The Nazi only invaded Poland in 1939 and other countries from 1940, not 1933.

    Maciamo - its mostly in History and Traditions. You can go read my "Imperial Princes" topic there for more information.
    I suppose that you are frerring to this thread. However I couldn't find any mention of "flag" (I did search the whole thread with Ctrl+F). This only add to my impression of you as a person of bad faith. If you want to argue that the Rising Sun flag has a historical significance because it was used long before Meiji, then give me some hard facts. I searched the Web before (mind you I am not going to post such a thread without a bit of research) and couldn't find anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    Very hositle and downright rude attitude. I am the one to provoke him? I doubt it - I posted a simple topic there and two members (one of which is bossel) practically attacked me there.
    Bossel was not hostile at all. That's in your imagination. He pinpointed your mistakes, and answered logically and without being rude. As he said before, you should be more careful about your wording of sentences. Everry word count. If you make a mistake or use a unsuitable word, you should only expect to be criticised.

  13. #38
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    Maciamo -

    When you can't find anything wrong with my post, you probably have to conviently use my wording to say something is wrong because you never can really agree with me. The Nazi state which existed from 1933 to 1945 at its largest extent comprised the territory from France to deep inside Soviet Russia - from the tip of Norway until Greece. From 1933 to 1939, the country was comprised of Germany, the Rhineland (annexed in '35 from France), Austria (annexed in '38), and the Sudetenland (annexed in '38 from Czechoslovakia which was itself annexed in '38-39'). After that the Polish invasion - then Denmark, Norway, France, Belgium, etc.

    The Imperial Princes topic was an example of bossel's hostility, not the flag topic. No, its not in my imagination.

  14. #39
    Custom Graphix Artist Martialartsnovice's Avatar
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    Okay can I jump in real quick,

    Okay Bossel: I agree with your posts Weimar being a republic of what was left of Germany and all. But on that same token I see the points of Hiroshi66. May I make a sugestion, to everyone Imnot trying to be rude, or anger anyone. K. But anyway I think as for the Japanese Flag in question. As others have said the Flag was drawn into being before the WW2. K. But as for abolishing it, I say NO because if Japan abolishes its Naval Ensignia, then I say the resto of the world should have to abolish their Military Ensignia.

    Maciamo: Can I make a statement on this post:

    That is where you are mistaken. The flag was only created in 1889. WWII refers mainly to the European conflict from 1939 to 1945 and the Pacific War between the US and Japan. However, from an Asian point of view, the war with Japan started with the first Sino-Japanese war of 1894-95, then the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), immediately follwed by the occupation of Korea (1905-1945), then of Manchuria (1931-1945), the second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), then only the invasion of S-E Asia and the war with the US from 1942 to 1945. It was all part of the Meiji militarists's project of Great Japanese Empire (‘å“ú–{’鍑). It is those people zho created the Rising Sun Flag in 1889 - it just didn't exist before (or do you have evidence that could prove me wrong).

    The war with Japan started before the instances you quoted in the post I have referenced above. The conflicts started with Japan and China when Kabula Khan of the Gengis Khan family line, sent Two Naval/Calvary Invasions to the Japanese Islands. Though both invasions were unsuccesful due to a storm at Sea. Anyway after these attempted conquests, is when Japan began its self-imposed isolation. This to me seems the most logical explaination of the conflicts and as to the origins of the Naval Ensignia.

    As I said earlier in this posts, I dont mean to offend anyone. So take this in measure.
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  15. #40
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
    The war with Japan started before the instances you quoted in the post I have referenced above. The conflicts started with Japan and China when Kabula Khan of the Gengis Khan family line, sent Two Naval/Calvary Invasions to the Japanese Islands. Though both invasions were unsuccesful due to a storm at Sea. Anyway after these attempted conquests, is when Japan began its self-imposed isolation. This to me seems the most logical explaination of the conflicts and as to the origins of the Naval Ensignia.
    Let's take this with measure then.

    First of all, there is no connection between China in 1895 and the Mongol invasion of 1274 and 1281. It's just too distant in time and type of society, and then Kubilai Khan was a Mongol that first invaded China, not a Chinese.

    Secondly, Japan only started its self-imposed isolation from the Edo period (seclusion from 1639 to 1854), not after the 13th century failed Mongol invasion. One of the reason Japan closed itself to the West (except the Netherlands), was that the Portuguese had tried to introduce Christianity and other dangerous ideas. Contrarily to popular beliefs, Japan was not closed to the whole world, and continued trading with China and Korea during that period. More information on this subject here.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    Not really. Second West German republic and Second republic in West Germany...
    You really can't see the difference?
    Anyway, 2nd republic is not quite true. There were a number of smaller (soviet) republics in Germany after WWI. BTW, GDR & FRG were created in 1949, not 1945.

    Why?
    From M-W (is it really asked too much that you inform yourself at least a little bit?):
    republic
    1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government [...]

    Oppressive regime in occupied Europe?
    If you didn't notice: the Ottoman empire occupied pretty much the whole Balkans for centuries.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    The Nazi state which existed from 1933 to 1945 at its largest extent comprised the territory from France to deep inside Soviet Russia - from the tip of Norway until Greece.
    Wrong. The Nazi state does not equal all the occupied territories. The Reich comprised only the territory of pre-WWI Germany plus incorporated Western Czechoslovakia, parts of Ukraine (namely Galicia) & Poland & some smaller chunks of other countries. Look at the attached pic!

    Even if you'd count all occupied territories, that wouldn't make up "most of Europe," though.

    the Rhineland (annexed in '35 from France)
    Er..., what? Who told you this crap? The Rhineland was part of Germany, according to the Locarno treaty it was demilitarised. The only thing the Nazis did, was to remilitarise it against the treaty (edit: & that was in 36).

    No, its not in my imagination.
    Well..., it is. For the rest of what you said I refer to Maciamo's posts.
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  17. #42
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    Why would it not make up most of Europe? The only independent states were Britain, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal, and the Soviet Union (which was already mostly occupied).

  18. #43
    Comfortably Ignorant Faustianideals's Avatar
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    Let's keep it unbanned, so that the pop culture won't adopt it as something cool.

  19. #44
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    It's really up to the Japanese as to what is banned and what isn't in their own culture. By the same token, why not ask why the Chinese don't remove pictures of Mao becasue of all the people his orders sent to their deaths? Why not demand that the US ban the confederate flag?

    It's no more important than people make it. A symbol is a symbol. Better to change the hearts of those who still refuse to address the past and those who will not let a generation that is dying go to their graves with the horrible acts they commited.

    I do not say forget the past, but clinging to it only drags the hate into another generation.
    Breathe. Unclench. Think.

  20. #45
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
    Why would it not make up most of Europe? The only independent states were Britain, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal, and the Soviet Union
    Wrong. There were several other independent countries (eg. you forgot all the allies of Germany). If I find the time, I'll scan a map tonight & post it.

    BTW, you have to differentiate between the Reich, occupied territories & independent states. Actually, it's even more complicated than that, but that should serve as basic outline.

  21. #46
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    Yeah Hiroshi, The Reich at its highest point of expansion covered France, Belgium, German Holdings in Africa and Asia, Poland, and Part of the western Soviet lands. But as for the banning for pop culture issue, I believe this is an overstatement.

    Maciamo: I disagree with your post in answer to mine. Ive checked into the subject and yes I agree that the culture was different, but the flag was drafted by the Shogun as a Military symbol to rally his troops for battle. The 16 rays are said to represent the 16 generations from his time to the beginning with Amameratsu and the descent that she was supposed to have placed into authority. As Japan's first emperor. If I errored with the spelling of the Nihongo words in this post, bear with me, Im training to understand Nihongo, and post in the Nihongo forum. But as for now, I will post these in english.

  22. #47
    Custom Graphix Artist Martialartsnovice's Avatar
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    Okay I agree with the idea of the Netherlands and its attempts with forced christinaty with Japan. But I also have been told, and I have read in different sources, that with the Isolation period, that if foreigners washed up on the shore, they couldnt return to their homelands, and if Japanese citizens washed onto foreigner shores, that they were forbidden to return upon the pain of death.

  23. #48
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
    Maciamo: I disagree with your post in answer to mine. Ive checked into the subject and yes I agree that the culture was different, but the flag was drafted by the Shogun as a Military symbol to rally his troops for battle. The 16 rays are said to represent the 16 generations from his time to the beginning with Amameratsu and the descent that she was supposed to have placed into authority. As Japan's first emperor.
    Do you have any link to confirm this. I have never heard of the flag being drafted by the shogun. It also doesn't make sense to say that it "represents the 16 generations from his time to the beginning with Amameratsu", because 1) the shogun was not the emperor and was not say to descend from Amaterasu, 2) there were officially 107 emperors before the Edo period (or 121 before Meiji), so much more than 16 generations.

    Okay I agree with the idea of the Netherlands and its attempts with forced christinaty with Japan.
    You are mixing everything up again. It was not the Netherlands who attempted to bring Christianity to Japan, but Portugal and Spain. The Dutch were allowed to stay justly because they didn't try to convert anybody.

    But I also have been told, and I have read in different sources, that with the Isolation period, that if foreigners washed up on the shore, they couldnt return to their homelands, and if Japanese citizens washed onto foreigner shores, that they were forbidden to return upon the pain of death.
    I will attribute you numerous misunderstandings of "what you read" to your young age. Unallowed foreigners coming to Japan were not forced to stay in Japan. They just couldn't come or were thrown out of the country or killed. It is only true that the Japanese could not return back to Japan if they left the country or were also killed (but there might have been exemptions for trading with Korea and China ?).

  24. #49
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikyoto
    It's really up to the Japanese as to what is banned and what isn't in their own culture.
    I diagree. If it had been up to the Germans to decide, they may not have banned Nazi symbols. They were forced to by the victors. If it's up to Japan, like the content of history textbooks and the official visits of politicians to the Yasukuni Shrine, they will not change anything, because it cannot be offensive for them (but it is for the countries that experienced Japanese occupation).

    By the same token, why not ask why the Chinese don't remove pictures of Mao becasue of all the people his orders sent to their deaths? Why not demand that the US ban the confederate flag?
    These issues are completely different because they are domestic problems. If some Chinese decide that Mao was bad enough for his picture to be banned, that is their decision as they were the victims. Other countries don't care as Mao did not kill their citizens (as long as Tibet is part of China). Same for teh Confederate flag. That was an internal problem, and can only be solved internally. But let us not forget that Japan invaded ALL East Asia, as far as India, and also waged war against the US, UK, France, Netherlands, Australia, etc. The Rising Sun flag represents Japanese Imperialism, their conquest of East Asia and associated atrocities. Most Japanese were not the victims but the perpetrators of this. So it is ludicrous to say it is up to them to decide, as they will of course not find it necessary. It would only be seen as a sign that Japan finally realises that its Rising Sun flag is wrong, 60 years after the end of the war. How could they do this by themselves without foreign pressure ?

    But again, as I said I don't care. I even entertained the thought of using this flag as a logo for JREF (but Thomas and I decided it might look too nationalist). I am only playing the devil's advocate (one of my favourite hobbies).

    If you are curious to know what my Rising Sun flag JREF logo looked like, here it is.


  25. #50
    JSPS Ikyoto's Avatar
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    But Tibet was forcebly taken over by China. Doesn't that fall into the same criteria as areas of China that were invaded by Japan? The peope killed in Tibet by Chinese troops were not Chinese citizens.

    The confederate flag is an internal US issue and does face self censorship.

    But my point is essentially that reguardless of where the pressure comes from nothing will change untill the hearts and minds of people change. Right now I have seen no evidence that the Japanese are wiling to address the issue at all, other than as a responce to external presure - It's a bandaide effect and they are not seeing it as something within their culture they even need to face.

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