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  1. #1
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Red face Has Japan killed more foreign civilians in WWII than any other country in history ?

    Looking at the list of World War I casualties and World War II casualties, I noticed that the civilian losses in China during WWII alone were higher than of all other countries combined (except USSR). And the numbers for other Asian countries are not even listed. As the Japanese were the sole responsible for these casulalities, then adding those of the rest of Asia, I was wondering if the Japanese do not deserve the dubious title of worse butchers of innocent in the history of mankind. No other war has caused more civilian deaths and more suffering (rapes, torture, slave workers, sexual slaves, biological experiments on live human beings...) than the Japanese invasion of Asia from the 1930's to 1945.

    If you can think of a country having caused more civilian or total casualities in the same war (=same government and people, not with several centuries of interval), please let me know.

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  2. #2
    Jacques Rocks! Jungle Boy's Avatar
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    Russia...Stalin killed over 20 million innocent Russians during his purges. The man was a genocidal maniac.

  3. #3
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Boy
    Russia...Stalin killed over 20 million innocent Russians during his purges. The man was a genocidal maniac.
    Yes, and Mao even did worse after WWII. Let say that Japan killed the highest number of "foreign civilians" (not own citizens). The total number of casualties caused by the Nazi are similar to that caused by the Japanese. The main difference is that the Japanese killed a disproportionately high number of civilians, while the Nazi killed more soldiers (and lost 4x more troops than the Japanese too, which indicates a higher level of soldiers vs soldiers fighting).

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    what about the spaniards: how many aztecs?
    what about the brits/french: how many native americans?
    what about the inquisition(germany/france): how many hags, wizards and faggots?

    just write down one, holy nation/race; which has not murdered at all. the israelites does not count, as they are already mentioned in the bible: the fleed from the egypt slavery!

    "to the crucification? one cross only each, please"
    (monthy pyton, the life of the brian)

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    I jump to conclusions mad pierrot's Avatar
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    As the Japanese were the sole responsible for these casulalities, then adding those of the rest of Asia, I was wondering if the Japanese do not deserve the dubious title of worse butchers of innocent in the history of mankind.
    Are you sure? Doesn't that number include deaths of Chinese killed by other Chinese in internal conflicts? Seems impossibly high for the Japanese alone to be responsible for those deaths.


  6. #6
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad pierrot
    Are you sure? Doesn't that number include deaths of Chinese killed by other Chinese in internal conflicts? Seems impossibly high for the Japanese alone to be responsible for those deaths.
    No, that was after WWII. The reason why the Japanese killed more people than the Nazi is that they invaded China from 1933 and stayed until 1945. 12 years in total, while the Nazi only fought for about 4.5 years (from late 1939 to early 1945).

  7. #7
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexriversan
    what about the spaniards: how many aztecs?
    what about the brits/french: how many native americans?
    what about the inquisition(germany/france): how many hags, wizards and faggots?
    You don't get my point. Everybody knows that every country has massacred other people or their own people at some time of their history.

    But the Spaniards could not have massacred 20 million Amerindian for the sole reason that there were not 20 million Amerindian in the whole Americas when they got there. The world population has increased a lot in the last 2 centuries. We are now 6 billion people, but were only 1 billion in 1802 and about 500 million in 1500. Wikipedia tell us that the population of Latin America in 1750 (250 years after the Europeans arrived) was 16 million, including the European settlers.

    Because WWII was one of the last major wars, and the one causing the highest death toll in history, it is only natural that the main protagonists be the worst butchers in history too. These were the Germans and the Japanese, and the title of this thread says that the Japanese killed the highest number of (foreign) civilians ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    But the Spaniards could not have massacred 20 million Amerindian for the sole reason that there were not 20 million Amerindian in the whole Americas when they got there.
    Where's you're source for that? I've heard people claiming as many as a hundred million people living in the Americas before the europeans came, where of 90 per cent or so died mainly because of deseases and the destruction of their social structures. I've no idea what the numbers where, but you seem to simply assume a low number?

  9. #9
    Regular Member Keoland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    But the Spaniards could not have massacred 20 million Amerindian for the sole reason that there were not 20 million Amerindian in the whole Americas when they got there. The world population has increased a lot in the last 2 centuries. We are now 6 billion people, but were only 1 billion in 1802 and about 500 million in 1500. Wikipedia tell us that the population of Latin America in 1750 (250 years after the Europeans arrived) was 16 million, including the European settlers.
    Ahem.

    Do not underestimate us iberians, my friend. At the time of the spanish conquest in 1532, the Inca Empire had 12 million inhabitants. And the total population of Mesoamerica is estimated at 25 million people.

    That's 37 million natives, and it's not even counting the population north of the Aztec Empire, nor those outside the Inca Empire, and much less those that lived in what is now Brazil and Argentina, the latter ones estimated at about 10 million people.

    http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=28051

    The population of the Inca Empire at the time of the
    Spanish conquest in 1532 is commonly estimated to have been around 12 000 000 (...)


    http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/.../sacrifice.htm

    (...) Later, however, he and his colleague Woodrow Borah revised his estimate of the total central Mexican population upward to 25 million (...)

    So, if the population of Latin America 250 years later was just 16 million people, with millions of european settlers included... you do the math.

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    probably a large percentage of those deaths were indirect casualties
    ie they died from desease

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    Regular Member Shooter452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadhippo
    probably a large percentage of those deaths were indirect casualties
    ie they died from desease
    True, quite possibly, but so were the civilian deaths in China during the Second World War.

    That the disease casualties in China might have been the result of deliberate infections via Japanese biological warfare efforts or not is in debate. With low calorie diets, poor sanitation, constant upheaval as causes, it is also possible that these epidemics were naturally caused--however unlikely.

    Arab chroniclers were unamimous: the Mongols slew all--men, women, children, all...without mercy and without regard. Again, I admit that there is reason to hold their figures at arm's length, but it is difficult to totally discount them.

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    one thing I do know is that my great grandfather was killed by japanese soldier as a innocent civilian, and my grandparents, they need to run into mountains in order to avoid "japanese demon" or "japanese ghost". That's how they earned this name for their bruteness.

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    AmericaFlorida TuskCracker's Avatar
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    I was talking to another American, while watching the movie PURPLE BUTTERFLY. At the end of the movie was real footage of atrocities in Nanking, and the bombing of Shanghia.

    We both agreed we seen this a hundred times on the HISTORY CHANNEL.

    This is ancient history, the world has moved on..

    Most Americans seem to generally move on, with some small exceptions and not spend the rest of their lives dwelling in the past.
    .

  14. #14
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackInBox
    This is ancient history, the world has moved on...
    Er..., you must have a different definition of ancient than I have. Some people who lived through WWII are still alive.

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    AmericaFlorida TuskCracker's Avatar
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    Er..., you must have a different definition of ancient than I have. Some people who lived through WWII are still alive.
    Their very old. Lets say you were 20 years old in 1945. You would be, today, 79-80 years old.

  16. #16
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackInBox
    Their very old. Lets say you were 20 years old in 1945. You would be, today, 79-80 years old.
    Well, that's not really what I'd call ancient. If you call people of that age ancient, I suppose, that can be considered rude.

  17. #17
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    I'm going to veer here and ask why every other thread seems to have something to do with Japanese atrocities in WWII. Could we not have contained it to one thread?

    For the record, I do believe Imperial Japan holds this title, but I am curious as to why it matters. I still must insist on calling it Imperial Japan, for reasons discussed elsewhere. Are we, as a global community, so unwilling to forgive that we must dwell on the actions of those which are mostly dead, and will be completely very soon?

  18. #18
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kionon
    Are we, as a global community, so unwilling to forgive that we must dwell on the actions of those which are mostly dead, and will be completely very soon?
    I think that's an important question you ask. I found this keynote address to the International Citizensf Forum on War Crimes and Redress: Seeking Reconciliation and Peace for the 21st Century, Mark Wientraub, Dec. 10 1999, Tokyo:

    quote: Accountability, Justice and the Importance of Memory in the 'Era of War'

    Accountability and justice have the potential to redeem evil and therefore have the potential to be massively transformative experiences; for these are the only paths to rescue humanity from the depths of inhumanity. All peoples, as a single human family must commit and re-commit themselves to the post-Holocaust cry of gNever again!h We hope this Conference will one day be seen as a great human rights watershed; ... even if it accomplishes nothing else, stands as a beacon of light to the victims, to present and future generations of Asians and to all citizens of the world.

    Also see IENAGA Saburo ƉiO, nominated for Nobel Peace Prize: The Letter
    Last edited by lexico; May 20, 2005 at 02:33.
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  19. #19
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    Hummmm???

    Anyone know about US "collateral damage/civilian casualties" since WW1?
    Seems with all the wars the US has been involved in using Naval bombardment and air bombing the numbers must be fairly high? Just Germany and Japan alone must make those figures high. It must be hard to figure a correct number when whole cities are destroyed with all written records destroyed.

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    The Nanjing Incident
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  21. #21
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Japanese Views on Nanjing/2nd Sino-Japanese War 1931-1945

    Acknowledging Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi's research "The Nanking 100-Man Killing Contest Debate," Gregory Smits of Penn. State Univeristy states, "the sheer quantity, wide variety and high quality of evidence available today that attest to this massacre makes it more difficult than ever for anyone with intellectual integrity to dismiss or minimize it."

    Japanese Views of the Second Sino-Japanese War:
    Through the lens of the Nanjing Massacre and Events Connected with It by Gregory Smits

    Above page with extensive, informative links was built as part of
    Making Japan: Modern Japanese History at Penn. State Univ. by Gregory Smits

    Other material in topics of histories of Japan and China to be found at main page
    East Asian History Textbooks, Gregory Smits
    Last edited by lexico; Aug 10, 2005 at 16:37. Reason: gr.

  22. #22
    Go to shopping PopCulturePooka's Avatar
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    Aye lexico, I think Keoland's "Don't underestimate..." comment was supposed to have a sarcastic tone.

    As in he wasn't boasting about it as much as displaying his regional group as just as bad when it comes to genocide.

  23. #23
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    I think in the WWII, Japanese soldiers may have killed more FOREIGN civilians (sadly, in brutal ways too, and I do not call any killing of such nature justified~)
    But of course there were some Japanese of good conscience who actually helped the allies~

    edit:

    actually having just read about how many of its own civilians died (especially toward the end of the war) - either killed by the Japanese soldiers or committed suicide - I think that figure is pretty big as well.

    One interesting thing strikes me in that there are a few civilian mass grave (from 500 - 5000 people in each grave) in the Town of Fang Zheng in China dedicated to these deceased Japanese civlians during the war, yet I don't recall any government officials going there to mourn them while Yasukuni Shrine seems to be so much more popular. These cemeterys are currently exposed to lack of management and for diplomatic reasons the Chinese govenerment cannot put in more effort than it has now unless the Japanese government shows interest in doing that. Sadly no interest from the Japanese government >.<
    Last edited by bluubear; Nov 3, 2005 at 08:26.
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