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Thread: Has Japan killed more foreign civilians in WWII than any other country in history ?

  1. #26
    長靴をはいた猫やねん ralian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    It seems, you're confusing some things here. The official PRC victim figure for the Nanjing Massacre is >300,000. Roughly that number is widely accepted in historical circles, but there are a number of lower estimates & very few higher.

    30m is, IIRC, the officiall PRC estimate for the whole Sino-Japanese War. This is probably exaggerated. I'd go for a number around 10m, but the estimates vary widely.

    The actual number of Nanjing inhabitants at the time is hard to calculate, since the city was full of refugees. It may have been up to 1m, but I never saw the number of 20m anywhere.
    Yes, I was confused about the figure as I was reading articles written in Japanese.
    I meant to say that the population of Nanjing was 200,000 that time, while PRC claims that the figure for Nanjing Massacre was 300,000.
    Probably no one knows.
    It is hard to investigate unless researchers receive full corporation from Chinese government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    It seems, you're confusing some things here. The official PRC victim figure for the Nanjing Massacre is >300,000. Roughly that number is widely accepted in historical circles, but there are a number of lower estimates & very few higher.
    ...
    The actual number of Nanjing inhabitants at the time is hard to calculate, since the city was full of refugees. It may have been up to 1m, but I never saw the number of 20m anywhere.
    Roughly that number is widely accepted in historical circles
    Really? Which circles?

    I always wonder if WWII really ended in Asia in 1945.
    If I were a Chinese/Korean survivor, maybe even Taiwanese after Kunmintan regime, my answer must be "no".

  3. #28
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun
    Roughly that number is widely accepted in historical circles
    Really? Which circles?
    Mainstream historians usually agree on 300,000 as a valid estimate, though numbers between 200,000 & 300,000 (closer to 300,000) are acceptable as well, if you didn't notice. Numbers below 200,000 are only purported by a minority (most of them in Japan).

  4. #29
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    I'm going to veer here and ask why every other thread seems to have something to do with Japanese atrocities in WWII. Could we not have contained it to one thread?

    For the record, I do believe Imperial Japan holds this title, but I am curious as to why it matters. I still must insist on calling it Imperial Japan, for reasons discussed elsewhere. Are we, as a global community, so unwilling to forgive that we must dwell on the actions of those which are mostly dead, and will be completely very soon?

  5. #30
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    As Falk Pingel in the Georg Eckert Institute mentioned, I don't think PRC accepts researches from other countries or that Japan and PRC/Taiwan hold open dialogues upon their histories. I still don't understand who are "mainstream" historians like you said.
    Anyways, looking at the great effort of the Institute, I don't know if it is feasible to build mutual agreements upon the history between different regimes, but I know it would be much better than nothing.

  6. #31
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kionon
    Are we, as a global community, so unwilling to forgive that we must dwell on the actions of those which are mostly dead, and will be completely very soon?
    I think that's an important question you ask. I found this keynote address to the International Citizens’ Forum on War Crimes and Redress: Seeking Reconciliation and Peace for the 21st Century, Mark Wientraub, Dec. 10 1999, Tokyo:

    quote: Accountability, Justice and the Importance of Memory in the 'Era of War'

    Accountability and justice have the potential to redeem evil and therefore have the potential to be massively transformative experiences; for these are the only paths to rescue humanity from the depths of inhumanity. All peoples, as a single human family must commit and re-commit themselves to the post-Holocaust cry of “Never again!” We hope this Conference will one day be seen as a great human rights watershed; ... even if it accomplishes nothing else, stands as a beacon of light to the victims, to present and future generations of Asians and to all citizens of the world.

    Also see IENAGA Saburo 家永三カ, nominated for Nobel Peace Prize: The Letter
    Last edited by lexico; May 20, 2005 at 02:33.
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  7. #32
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    Hummmm???

    Anyone know about US "collateral damage/civilian casualties" since WW1?
    Seems with all the wars the US has been involved in using Naval bombardment and air bombing the numbers must be fairly high? Just Germany and Japan alone must make those figures high. It must be hard to figure a correct number when whole cities are destroyed with all written records destroyed.

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  8. #33
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralian
    Also, I would like to point out that in the book written by Iris Chan ”The Rape of Nanking”, so many fabricated photos were found. Of course, the provider of those photos was Chinese government.
    The caracterization 'fabricated' could be considered loaded; perhaps 'misidentified' might serve the purpose better, reserving the term 'fabricated' for genuinely forged instances only. With critical cross-examinations such as offered by Hata Ikuhiko the reliability of existing photos should become more reliable in future studies.
    Last edited by lexico; May 20, 2005 at 02:35.

  9. #34
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    The actual number of Nanjing inhabitants at the time is hard to calculate, since the city was full of refugees. It may have been up to 1m, but I never saw the number of 20m anywhere.
    Acc. to Tawara Yoshifumi 俵 義文 Nanjing area consisted of

    1. NCD Nanjing City Ditrict 南京城區
    2. NSA Nanjing Suburban Area 南京近郊區
    3. NISZ Nanjing International Safety Zone 南京 際安全區

    "Within NCD lies NISZ, the International Safety Zone."

    "Nanjing Massacre involved not only NCD but also NSA."

    "At that time, immediately preceding Najing's takeover by Imperial Japanese Army, NCD had around 1 million people, NSA around 1.5 million, adding up to around 2.5 million. (Kasahara Jugyushi 笠原十九司 Nanjing Incident 南京事件 Iwanami shoden 岩波書店 1997)."

    "When Imperial Japanese Army attacked Nanjing many people including the rich left the NCD; however there also flowed from the NSA into NCD. Hence the population of NCD was in a constant flux."

    "NCD population was around 500,000; in addition to that were Nanjing Defence Force numbering 150,000. (Nanjing Mayor Ma Chaojun 馬超俊 in his letter to KMT Military Committee dated 1937.11.23 wrote 'current population around 500,000, and expecting an increase of around 200,000 refugees.')"

    "The (oft quoted population of 'Nanjing' of) 200,000 refers to (only) those concentrated in the Nanjing International Safety Zone including some refugees (who made it into the safery zone). After the Imperial Japanese occupation of Nanjing, additional refugees fleeing from the massacre and rapes caused the Safety Zone's population to rise to around 250,000 within a month."

    "The scheme of downplaying/neglecting the magnitude of the Nanjing Massacre can be seen in the right-wing nationalist group of historians' (Association for Creating New Textbooks) attempt at forging revisionist history books) is conuing although the stated facts have been elucidated byt Nanjing Massacre researchers (南京事件照査硏究會 ed. '13 Lies of Nanjing Massacre Sceptics' 柏書房, 1999)."

    Source: Tawara Yoshifumi 俵 義文, a Japanese expert on textbooks, examined the situation in a recent article: "Kenpo Ihan/Shinryaku Senso Kotei no 'Abunai Kyokasho' no Jittai" (The facts of a 'dangerous textbook' that violates the constitution and that affirms the aggressive war), published in _Kikan Senso Sekinin Kenkyu_, no.30 2000

    Acc. the information above the estimated population in NCD alone would have been around 500k + 200k + 150k = 850k = 850,000 on December 13, 1937, at the time of Nanjing's fall. To this should be added the remaining population of NSA, Nanjing suburbs comprised of 6 regional districts 懸府 which can only raise the population estimate.
    Last edited by lexico; May 20, 2005 at 12:27.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    But the Spaniards could not have massacred 20 million Amerindian for the sole reason that there were not 20 million Amerindian in the whole Americas when they got there.
    Where's you're source for that? I've heard people claiming as many as a hundred million people living in the Americas before the europeans came, where of 90 per cent or so died mainly because of deseases and the destruction of their social structures. I've no idea what the numbers where, but you seem to simply assume a low number?

  11. #36
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    Many countries are guilty

    I think that Japan was not the only country responsible for killings, during a war casualties are inevitable, even killings of innocent (unfortunately), there are are other countries too which are responsible for world war 2 except Japan, Germany killed millions of people during world war 2 , and Stalins victims are tens of millions therefore blaming only Japan is something inacurate from the historical point of view.

  12. #37
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian1977
    I think that Japan was not the only country responsible for killings, during a war casualties are inevitable, even killings of innocent (unfortunately), there are are other countries too which are responsible for world war 2 except Japan, Germany killed millions of people during world war 2 , and Stalins victims are tens of millions therefore blaming only Japan is something inacurate from the historical point of view.
    Of course many (if not all) countries can be blamed. This thread just concentrate of the worst atrocities and largest killing of civilians (not so inevitable in a war) ever. Japan, Russia, China and Germany are very likely the top 4. The question was "Has Japan actually killed more civilians than the others ?" Compared to Germany, I think the answer is "yes", but it's true that Stalin and Mao have comitted such atrocities against their own people that Japan may well rank 3rd. Japan would be first for the killing of "foreign civilians".

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  13. #38
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    The Nanjing Incident
    Recent Research and Trends
    by
    David Askew
    Associate Professor
    Ritsumeikan Asia Pacific University
    Lecturer
    Monash University
    Research Editor
    History of Ideas and Law
    electronic journal of contemporary japanese studies
    http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/Askew.html

  14. #39
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Japanese Views on Nanjing/2nd Sino-Japanese War 1931-1945

    Acknowledging Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi's research "The Nanking 100-Man Killing Contest Debate," Gregory Smits of Penn. State Univeristy states, "the sheer quantity, wide variety and high quality of evidence available today that attest to this massacre makes it more difficult than ever for anyone with intellectual integrity to dismiss or minimize it."

    Japanese Views of the Second Sino-Japanese War:
    Through the lens of the Nanjing Massacre and Events Connected with It by Gregory Smits

    Above page with extensive, informative links was built as part of
    Making Japan: Modern Japanese History at Penn. State Univ. by Gregory Smits

    Other material in topics of histories of Japan and China to be found at main page
    East Asian History Textbooks, Gregory Smits
    Last edited by lexico; Aug 10, 2005 at 16:37. Reason: gr.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Keoland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    But the Spaniards could not have massacred 20 million Amerindian for the sole reason that there were not 20 million Amerindian in the whole Americas when they got there. The world population has increased a lot in the last 2 centuries. We are now 6 billion people, but were only 1 billion in 1802 and about 500 million in 1500. Wikipedia tell us that the population of Latin America in 1750 (250 years after the Europeans arrived) was 16 million, including the European settlers.
    Ahem.

    Do not underestimate us iberians, my friend. At the time of the spanish conquest in 1532, the Inca Empire had 12 million inhabitants. And the total population of Mesoamerica is estimated at 25 million people.

    That's 37 million natives, and it's not even counting the population north of the Aztec Empire, nor those outside the Inca Empire, and much less those that lived in what is now Brazil and Argentina, the latter ones estimated at about 10 million people.

    http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=28051

    The population of the Inca Empire at the time of the
    Spanish conquest in 1532 is commonly estimated to have been around 12 000 000 (...)


    http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/.../sacrifice.htm

    (...) Later, however, he and his colleague Woodrow Borah revised his estimate of the total central Mexican population upward to 25 million (...)

    So, if the population of Latin America 250 years later was just 16 million people, with millions of european settlers included... you do the math.

  16. #41
    Color of blood Himuro Murder Fan's Avatar
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    Oi.... Germany people!>(

    Ok. If you read the WWII book and watch the movies Japan barly killed more then Germany. Hittler killed millions of jews and sush. Japan just dropped a few bombs on the Pearl Harbor and killed much less then Germany. It is true that Japan was allies of Germany but now they are on our side I think and hope. It's no ones fauly but Germany so blame them. But it's too lat for talking about this so don't blame germany.

  17. #42
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    Ahem.

    Do not underestimate us iberians, my friend. At the time of the spanish conquest in 1532, the Inca Empire had 12 million inhabitants. And the total population of Mesoamerica is estimated at 25 million people.

    That's 37 million natives, and it's not even counting the population north of the Aztec Empire, nor those outside the Inca Empire, and much less those that lived in what is now Brazil and Argentina, the latter ones estimated at about 10 million people.

    http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=28051

    The population of the Inca Empire at the time of the
    Spanish conquest in 1532 is commonly estimated to have been around 12 000 000 (...)


    http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/.../sacrifice.htm

    (...) Later, however, he and his colleague Woodrow Borah revised his estimate of the total central Mexican population upward to 25 million (...)

    So, if the population of Latin America 250 years later was just 16 million people, with millions of european settlers included... you do the math.
    So what exactly is your point ?
    Not to "underestimate the Iberians" in what ? In the Iberian capacity to commit genocide by wiping out at least 37 mil - 16 mil = 21 million AmeroIndian peoples in the American regions occupied by the Portuguese and the Spaniards in the 250 years from mid 1500's to mid 1700's ? Shame on you to brag about murder !

    Do the Iberians have the capacity to rise above the narrow peninsular mentality or the Eurocentric mentality for once ?
    What do you see in John Donn's No Man..., Picasso's Guernica, or Rodin's Burghers of Calais ? Can you laugh at them in that safty of your home because you lack the imagination ?
    Last edited by lexico; Aug 12, 2005 at 19:06.

  18. #43
    Regular Member Keoland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    So what exactly is your point?
    My point was that Maciamo was excluding outright the possibility that the spaniards could have killed more than 20 million amerindians, on the grounds that there were not 20 million amerindians to beguin with.

    Since the data avaliable points otherwise, I pointed that out - what Spain did in the early XVIth century probably rates as the biggest wiping out of humans ever in terms of the percentage of the total population (I don't recall a bigger one).

    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    So what exactly is your point?
    Actually, the 16 million include millions of european settlers. Also the 37 millions are just the mesoamericans plus the population of the Inca Empire. It does not include the rest of South America. The total amerindian population of central and south america in 1519 was probably around 50 million people, perhaps more.

    And the eliminations occurred (in the spanish part) in the very first years of the colonization, not over 250 years - the 16 million people in 1750 already include some recovery by the native population. The data points to the elimination of around 80-90% of the natives in the first 100 years.

    The point is to show the hypocrisy of many which point to the atrocities of the XXth century and show them as "the greatest ever", but at the same time are totally blind to the fact that other peoples (which have a good international standing - there is no international movement against the portuguese or spanish) have done things that make whatever the Japanese or Germans did in WW2 look like small things in comparison. Which happens to be quite relevant to the title of this thread.

    It also makes us often wonder why the Germans and Japanese are so often accused, while nobody seems to care about us

    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    Do the Iberians have the capacity to rise above the narrow peninsular mentality or the Eurocentric mentality for once?
    Funny you ask that. In the XVIIIth century, Montesquieu wrote something he called "Persian Letters", which were done as if someone from Persia was visiting Europe. The idea was to show the cultural difference between the two civilizations.

    Regarding us iberians, his fictional persian character wrote:

    "I have, in six months time, run through Spain and Portugal; and I have lived among a people, who despising all others, do the French alone the honour of hating them".

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/HTML.php?recordID=0959

    (Letter LXXVIII)

    To be honest, we have background from the days of the Romans. The numbers advanced by Julius Caesar in his De Bello Gallico indicate that he wiped out one third of the population of Gaul during seven years of war. Whole tribes were anihilated.

    He also presents exact data one some points. The Helvetii and their allies, which migrated to Gaul in 60 b.C., numbered exactly 368 000 souls, according to their own census. After he clashed with them for some months, and especially after the Battle of Bibracte, Caesar notes that only 113 000 were left to return to their original country. The soil of the Hill where the Helvetii made their final stand was soaked in human blood from men, women and children. That is the equivalent of the Massacre of Nanking, but done in just one day, out of a much smaller population and just with swords.

    The Venetii in Brittany (250 000 people), for that matter vanished totally from History after their rebellion. Caesar wanted to make an example out of them.

    These cases are recurrent in Latin History. Yet most people point to the Romans as an example to be followed. And Caesar is a very respected leader

    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    Can you laugh at them in that safty of your home because you lack the imagination ?
    I don't need imagination, I lived in Africa for some time and saw a fair share of butchery myself. Have you ever seen women who had their limbs chopped off and then were impaled by their vaginas after having been raped by dozens?

    Or people gunned down the streets by the police just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (namely, when the police was passing by?).

    Or having to pass over a line of corpses to get to work, after the disco next door was attacked by the guerilla? (I stepped on many teeth who were on the ground - the people tried to flee, and many were stomped to death - they left their teeth there when their heads were stepped on by the fleeing crowd).

    Or waiting for transportation while the person which was previously there just had their brains blown off? (and the fresh corpse is still there, because it will take many hours until someone even bothers to pick it up).

    I do have these experiences. Unlike what you think, one does not become insensitive to human death by never experiencing it - it is when it becomes a familiar everyday sight that we stop caring. Either that, or we go insane.

    Regards,
    Keoland
    Last edited by Keoland; Aug 12, 2005 at 21:14.

  19. #44
    Go to shopping PopCulturePooka's Avatar
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    Aye lexico, I think Keoland's "Don't underestimate..." comment was supposed to have a sarcastic tone.

    As in he wasn't boasting about it as much as displaying his regional group as just as bad when it comes to genocide.

  20. #45
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    PopCulturePooka: I appreciate your trying to ease the tension. I'm sure we can work this out in a civil, rational manner. It's just that sarcasm regarding human lives doesn't quite work for me. Thanks, though.

    Keoland:

    Thanks for responding. You wrote,
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    My point was that Maciamo was excluding outright the possibility that the spaniards could have killed more than 20 million amerindians, on the grounds that there were not 20 million amerindians to beguin with.
    If it can be proven with certainty that the pre-Columbian populations of the Amricas was in excess of 20 million, you might have a point, but can it ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Leoland
    Since the data avaliable points otherwise, I pointed that out - what Spain did in the early XVIth century probably rates as the biggest wiping out of humans ever in terms of the percentage of the total population (I don't recall a bigger one).
    1) What data specifically ?
    2) To how many do the data point ? (of course you said ca. 50 million, but how was the calculation done ?)
    3) "What Spain did in the early XVIth century" : You greatly overestimate what the Spanish did to reduce the American population. Don't you think you might have seen that period thru the bias of modern history ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    Actually, the 16 million include millions of european settlers.
    Can you be a bit more specific as to how many Portuguese and Spanish were among the 16 million ? Even an informed range of possible population figure ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    Also the 37 millions are just the mesoamericans plus the population of the Inca Empire. It does not include the rest of South America. The total amerindian population of central and south america in 1519 was probably around 50 million people, perhaps more.
    Your figure of 50 million is close to one figure of 54 million by geographer William Denevan; this might or might not have been your figure of 50 million, but I'm asking anyway to see if there was a study independent of Denevan's.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons...
    In 1976, geographer William Denevan used various estimates to derive a "consensus count" of about 54 million people, although some recent estimates are lower than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    And the eliminations occurred (in the spanish part) in the very first years of the colonization, not over 250 years - the 16 million people in 1750 already include some recovery by the native population. The data points to the elimination of around 80-90% of the natives in the first 100 years.
    You are probably correct in placing the time of population reduction at around the first century --perhaps even within several decades-- since the arrival of the conquistadors. Nothwithstanding "Dominican friar Bartolom de Las Casas' writings that vividly depict atrocities committed on the natives by the Spanish," the figures (exactly to how great are they ?) hardly accounts for the huge decline in Amerindian population.

    The main culprits were supposedly "Old World" diseases to which the Amerinidans had no immunity; the 80-90% death of Amereindians were probalby cause by diseases such as small pox, the flu, the common cold, and other minor disease for which Old World populations had well develope strong immunity over time.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American natives.

    Disease began to kill immense numbers of indigenous Americans soon after Europeans and Africans began to arrive in the New World, bringing with them the infectious diseases of the Old World. One reason this death toll was overlooked (or downplayed) for so long is that disease, according to the widely held theory, raced ahead of European immigration in many areas, thus often killing off a sizeable portion of the population before European observations (and thus written records) were made.

    Many European immigrants who arrived after the epidemics had already killed massive numbers of American natives assumed that the natives had always been few in number. The scope of the epidemics over the years was enormous, killing millions of people — in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas — and creating "the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death of medieval Europe."
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    The point is to show the hypocrisy of many which point to the atrocities of the XXth century and show them as "the greatest ever", but at the same time are totally blind to the fact that other peoples (which have a good international standing - there is no international movement against the portuguese or spanish) have done things that make whatever the Japanese or Germans did in WW2 look like small things in comparison. Which happens to be quite relevant to the title of this thread.
    As the basic evidence on which you propose your objection to the thread thesis is not sufficiently established, eventhough I find your hypothesis of a major massacre of the Amerindian populations in the hands of the Iberian peoples fascinating and worthy of investigation, it is yet premature to label anything "hypocricy." Perhaps your emotionally devastating observations and personal testimonies from acquaintances regarding Portuguese/Spanish/Belgian atrocities in Africa in recent years have driven you to this hypothesis ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoland
    It also makes us often wonder why the Germans and Japanese are so often accused, while nobody seems to care about us
    Well, if the "us" you are referring to were indeed guilty of 80-90% of Amerindian deaths, don't worry. Just relay the facts and evidence, and I'm sure together we can build a case of genocide to judge the crimes to your satisfaction.

    source: Population history of American indigenous peoples

    I appreciate sharing your personal experience, Keoland.

    Sincerely,
    Lexico
    Last edited by lexico; Aug 14, 2005 at 19:06. Reason: diction

  21. #46
    Banned McTojo's Avatar
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    Angry Soft spot

    Maciamo,

    So, what's your overall conclusion on this ? I think it's personally disgusting to listen to someone prove an island nation alone was personally responsible for killing the most innocent civilians than any other country in HISTORY ! I think you don't have enough facts to back your claims. When you mention history are you talking about the entire history of man or civilization or recorded history ???? And what makes you think everybody was innocent ? Other people bought up better points !

  22. #47
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTojo
    So, what's your overall conclusion on this ? I think it's personally disgusting to listen to someone prove an island nation alone was personally responsible for killing the most innocent civilians than any other country in HISTORY ! I think you don't have enough facts to back your claims. When you mention history are you talking about the entire history of man or civilization or recorded history ???? And what makes you think everybody was innocent ? Other people bought up better points !
    I should have said "foreign civilians" instead of "innocent civilians" for 2 reasons :

    1) China and Russia may have killed more of their own civilians under Stalin and Mao, than Japan killed around Asia.
    2) As you point out "innocent" is a very vague and subjective term. I meant "non-military people who had no weapons to defend themselves" or "people who had never killed anyone". It's true that if you consider that a petty crime ot "moral sin" makes people lose their "legal or moral innocence", then it's difficult to determine.

    We may never know about the number of Amerindians who died after the arrival of the Spaniards, but there are two reasons that make me think that Japan's case is worse :

    1) Looking at the evolution of the world population, it is improbable that the population of the Americas was higher than 15 or 20 million in the late 15th century. The world population was about 400 million in 1492, and Latin America's share of the world population between 1750 to this day has always stood around 5% (even with modern argicultural technologies, deforestation, etc.). Asia's population in 1937-45 was around 1.3 billion, which makes it more plausible that 15 million Asians may hae died.

    2) The vast majority of the Amerindians who died in the first few decades after 1492 (maybe 80% of the continent), died because of diseases, and were not directly or intentionally killed by the Spaniards, contrarily to the mass murders, scientific experiments, etc. of the Japanese in Asia.

  23. #48
    Banned McTojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I should have said "foreign civilians" instead of "innocent civilians" for 2 reasons :

    1) China and Russia may have killed more of their own civilians under Stalin and Mao, than Japan killed around Asia.
    2) As you point out "innocent" is a very vague and subjective term. I meant "non-military people who had no weapons to defend themselves" or "people who had never killed anyone". It's true that if you consider that a petty crime ot "moral sin" makes people lose their "legal or moral innocence", then it's difficult to determine.

    We may never know about the number of Amerindians who died after the arrival of the Spaniards, but there are two reasons that make me think that Japan's case is worse :

    1) Looking at the evolution of the world population, it is improbable that the population of the Americas was higher than 15 or 20 million in the late 15th century. The world population was about 400 million in 1492, and Latin America's share of the world population between 1750 to this day has always stood around 5% (even with modern argicultural technologies, deforestation, etc.). Asia's population in 1937-45 was around 1.3 billion, which makes it more plausible that 15 million Asians may hae died.

    2) The vast majority of the Amerindians who died in the first few decades after 1492 (maybe 80% of the continent), died because of diseases, and were not directly or intentionally killed by the Spaniards, contrarily to the mass murders, scientific experiments, etc. of the Japanese in Asia.
    Again, not enough facts. You pull wikipedia again which only gives you world population figures as a whole. Furthermore, you wouldn't have any idea who were civilian nor non-civilian given the information and sources you provided and moreover, how would you even know exact population numbers at that time through your one source. Too many variables to deduce that Japan murdered more civilian foreigners than any other country in history !

    It's 2005 and we still can't accurately count the number of human being on earth even computers.

  24. #49
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTojo
    Again, not enough facts. You pull wikipedia again which only gives you world population figures as a whole.
    You clearly haven't read the thread even when the link was provided. Plase refer to the info linked in Maciamo's post no. 1;
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Looking at the list of World War I casualties and World War II casualties, I noticed that the civilian losses in China during WWII alone were higher than of all other countries combined (except USSR). And the numbers for other Asian countries are not even listed.
    Quote Originally Posted by McTojo
    Furthermore, you wouldn't have any idea who were civilian nor non-civilian given the information and sources you provided and moreover, how would you even know exact population numbers at that time through your one source. Too many variables to deduce that Japan murdered more civilian foreigners than any other country in history !

    It's 2005 and we still can't accurately count the number of human being on earth even computers.
    How would you know what Maciamo knows if you haven't checked the source he linked ? For the sake of accuracy, the figures have to objectified by taking the source population and number of years of genocide; i.e. deaths per million per year would give you something like this.

    <table 4. deaths percentage annual (per year-per population 100)>

    using adjusted figures, or this according to Rummel's figures unadjusted. It should be noted that Rummel counts even Japan's revisionist, denialist statistics by counting number of theories presented to avoid the cumbersome work of having to evaluate each claim, which means dishonest revisonist crap made in Japan also crept into his study. Hence I took the modified figure from Wikipedia however you would wish to discredit it.

    Dig around for more details with keyword Democicde/Genocide/ or Rummel and you will find an abundance of materials with analytic breakdowns into the details of civilian/military deaths/casualties which you are so interested in; but ther study is hardly finished, only started by Rummel and others in the study of Genocide, Democide, Murder, and Discrimination.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    which means dishonest revisonist crap made in Japan also crept into his study .
    .


    Why is it whenever a nation tries to defend itself against bleeding heart liberals and internationalist are they( Japan) called revisionist ?
    It simple shows that you are bias and that you refuse to accept any interpretation of history from Japan whatsoever. This study that you and Maciamo cooked-up with the help of wikipedia is not credible at all and if I were an expert on history I would poke holes in it. It sounds so diluted and bias against Japan.

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