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Thread: Common Japanese misconceptions regarding foreigners

  1. #76
    Your Goddess is here Ma Cherie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbackman
    What are some common Japanese misconceptions of people who look Indian (from India)? Just curious, since most of the talk seems to be how Japanese view white people.
    My darling you'll probably get stared at, gawked at possibly, asked questions that would seem stupid to you, just like most foreigners who travel to Japan. I wouldn't worry too much about that, though. Because you'll probably end up making friends.
    "Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."
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  2. #77
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    I may not have been the first to say it, but I do believe that Chinese & English share many interesting features. Please see this thread Write English in Kanji, post #13.
    Thanks for referring my idea, but that works for about all European languages (at least the Romance and Germanic ones + Greek). In fact, it works best of all with Greek. When I was 10-11 years old, we learnt the roots of Latin and Greek words at school (I suppose other European children did too), such as "democracy" comes from Greek "demos" (the people) and "cratos" (power") so power to the people.

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  3. #78
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbackman
    What are some common Japanese misconceptions of people who look Indian (from India)? Just curious, since most of the talk seems to be how Japanese view white people.
    Hey, I wrote the article and I am not Indian, so I will not venture say what Japanese think of/react to Indian people without a solid experience on the matter.

  4. #79
    livi
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    sorry,

    Most of what Maciamo and some others scribble here is, frankly, beyond me.
    I have been several times to Japan, befriended a fine and large japanese family in Chiba, had dinners and many social interactions with them and their friends.
    "Can you eat with chopstiks?" - she asked me - 'no'. So WHAT? She still likes to kiss me, rather than a japanese chap. 4 seasons ? - nonsense.
    Japanese superiority? If you are a bimbo, poorly dressed, shooting hot air, gold on your hands, wrists and the neck, dirty jeans and so forth, you will 'get it' everywhere on this melone.
    Let's face it, foreigners who go to live in Japan are rarely the "brain surgeons".
    I have seen there many and all kinds of foreigners with whom I would not care to sit down. Foreigners living in Japan are not a representative specs of theirs own countries. Too many "teachers", bartenders, "entertainers", too.
    Many, of course, are just fine.
    When in Japan, I still have to hear a provocative or thinly veiled question aimed at me. (I did hear it times and times again in N/A and in the "supercivilized" Europe.)
    No, they are not perfect, but chopsticks, weather, 'all foreigners speak English' and so on, is a total pubertal nonsense.
    Last edited by livi; Mar 29, 2005 at 06:23.

  5. #80
    Go to shopping PopCulturePooka's Avatar
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    Nonsense that almost everytone here who has lived in Japan has been asked or accosted with numerous times.

  6. #81
    livi
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    accosted with what?
    weather
    chopsticks
    leeching
    do you eat sushi
    do you speak english????
    apt. not for foreigners? ( many are for foreigners only, so what?)
    I have been twice to Australia and had been accosted with more nonsense than that!!!
    I have been to over 40 countries and dwelled in some. Been in Canada many years, You should see this nonsense here, talk to some immigrants (as well as in Australia)and see the so called canadian justice. Yet in the world's view this country is the idol, a white lily.

  7. #82
    Go to shopping PopCulturePooka's Avatar
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    Areyou saying people should grin and bear not getting access to apartments as we are all 'criminals'?
    NICE!

    Are you saying that as foreigners we must grin and bear being annoyed in public by scum suckers wanting to get free english lessons, regardless of the fact that you are reading, listening to music, hanging with your significant other or public?

    NICE

    Are you saying that people who have lived in Japan for a few years should be ok with people in their workplace, friends, family and people close to them still treating them like babies in terms of language ability, culinary selection and cutlery use?

    NICE!

    Do you think non-caucasian visitors to the country automatically being viewed as criminals and undesirable is nice ok?

    VERY NICE!


    Class act all round!

  8. #83
    livi
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    you are putting your words into my mouth - none of this i claim - only an idiot would
    *i am older than you, but good looking too, not once had anyone 'accosted' me on the train or elsewhere - leeching. i wish some of the beautiful girls would (that would be rather rare in australia)
    *apartments leasing has nothing to do with 'criminals' - you are exaggerating
    *i myself own apts for rent and have to be careful - i had problems few times
    *4 seasons - pardon me, that's childish
    *at work - yes, that is often a legitimate complain, but try to compete at work in canada as a non anglosaxon foreigner or even worse a non white, they will show you!
    you are angry, but i respect it.
    but, then, why don't you go home to your wonderful australia?
    perth is nice!
    ah, yes, about the cutlery : i was born "with a spoon in my mouth" and never had even tried to use chopsticks. i do not find them appealing!!!

  9. #84
    目録 Index's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livi
    you are putting your words into my mouth - none of this i claim - only an idiot would
    *i am older than you, but good looking too, not once had anyone 'accosted' me on the train or elsewhere - leeching. i wish some of the beautiful girls would (that would be rather rare in australia)
    *apartments leasing has nothing to do with 'criminals' - you are exaggerating
    *i myself own apts for rent and have to be careful - i had problems few times
    *4 seasons - pardon me, that's childish
    *at work - yes, that is often a legitimate complain, but try to compete at work in canada as a non anglosaxon foreigner or even worse a non white, they will show you!
    you are angry, but i respect it.
    but, then, why don't you go home to your wonderful australia?
    perth is nice!
    ah, yes, about the cutlery : i was born "with a spoon in my mouth" and never even tried to use chopsticks. i do not find them appealing!!!

    Ha ha ha. Finally a breath of fresh air.

  10. #85
    「地獄の番犬!」 Dekamaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I am sure most landlords don't have more problems with (Japanese-speaking) Westerners than with Japanese. I went to some big real etate agencies with my wife, and they said frankly that most landlords didn't want to rent apartments to foreigners, even Westerners with a stable job and married to a Japanese, and even with as several Japanese guarantors. However, most Japanese landlords have never rent anything to foreigners (or at least Westerners). In English, this s called prejudice (=unjust behaviour formed on a preconceived opinion not based on actual facts or experience).
    Gomen, but what did foreigners do to merit such prejudice ?
    Ni sen san / Ni sen go / Ni sen nana

  11. #86
    Go to shopping PopCulturePooka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livi
    you are putting your words into my mouth - none of this i claim - only an idiot would
    *i am older than you, but good looking too, not once had anyone 'accosted' me on the train or elsewhere - leeching. i wish some of the beautiful girls would (that would be rather rare in australia)
    *apartments leasing has nothing to do with 'criminals' - you are exaggerating
    *i myself own apts for rent and have to be careful - i had problems few times
    *4 seasons - pardon me, that's childish
    *at work - yes, that is often a legitimate complain, but try to compete at work in canada as a non anglosaxon foreigner or even worse a non white, they will show you!
    you are angry, but i respect it.
    but, then, why don't you go home to your wonderful australia?
    perth is nice!
    ah, yes, about the cutlery : i was born "with a spoon in my mouth" and never had even tried to use chopsticks. i do not find them appealing!!!
    And you reveal, in all of 3 posts, taht you are a petty troll taht must use petty little insults.

    Well done sport.

    But just for show...

    *i am older than you, but good looking too, not once had anyone 'accosted' me on the train or elsewhere - leeching. i wish some of the beautiful girls would (that would be rather rare in australia)
    Ignoring the obvious and untrue troll attempt, it has happened to a good many people taht have lived in Japan long term. Two of my favourites were the time I was playing Gameboy and had an onld lady plonk down near me with a notebook full of english notes and when me and my girlfriend were annoyed by a drunk salaryman who wanted to speak america.
    Theres a difference between being in a place where and when you want to socialise (IE a bar) and a place where its obvious you want to be left alone (reading a book or talking to friends on a train).

    *apartments leasing has nothing to do with 'criminals' - you are exaggerating
    Nope, others will tell you that many landlords in japan refuse to lease to ANY gaijin as they assume all gaijin are criminals or destructive and will lose them money.

    *4 seasons - pardon me, that's childish
    Result of a weak education system. I myself have never been bothered by the seasons thing though.

    *at work - yes, that is often a legitimate complain, but try to compete at work in canada as a non anglosaxon foreigner or even worse a non white, they will show you!
    Funnily enough the levels I saw in japan were way higher than what happened in workplaces in Australia. But then your ony repsonse will be a petty troll flame bait wont it?

    you are angry, but i respect it.
    but, then, why don't you go home to your wonderful australia?
    perth is nice!
    ah, yes, about the cutlery : i was born "with a spoon in my mouth" and never had even tried to use chopsticks. i do not find them appealing!!!
    ^Flamebait from a troll^

    Did not read.

  12. #87
    livi
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    i repeat my question, which you neglected to answer:
    why, the hell, you don't go back home?

  13. #88
    Your Goddess is here Ma Cherie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekamaster
    Gomen, but what did foreigners do to merit such prejudice ?

    This is a good question to ask my dear, but judging from I've read about Japan on this forum and other sources I have looked to. It seems that the only reason why foreigners are a target of prejudice is the simple fact that they're foreigners.

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    「地獄の番犬!」 Dekamaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma Cherie
    This is a good question to ask my dear, but judging from I've read about Japan on this forum and other sources I have looked to. It seems that the only reason why foreigners are a target of prejudice is the simple fact that they're foreigners.
    Ah...ok, I guess I underestimated Japan's cultural make-up. I have read that they (Japanese) have an uncanny ability to assimilate culture and make it their own. Pan is a Portuguese (I think ) word that is also used for bread in Japan, plus numerous borrowed engrish (konbini, biru, noto, etc.). The kana and their educational system is patterned after China. I think they do this to ensure the continuance of their own unique culture, so as to keep it from being corrupted by foreign influences. The more it changes, the more it remains the same. In this sense, I could relate that maybe they still have some residual insular views.

  15. #90
    Go to shopping PopCulturePooka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livi
    i repeat my question, which you neglected to answer:
    why, the hell, you don't go back home?
    Look at my location and search the forum and stop trolling.

  16. #91
    Where I'm Supposed to Be kirei_na_me's Avatar
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    Timeout everyone...
    i carry your heart with me(i carry it in my heart)

  17. #92
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livi
    "Can you eat with chopstiks?" - she asked me - 'no'. So WHAT?
    You must actually be an exception. How can you have spend some time (several weeks/months ?) in Japan and not be able to use chopsticks ? Does that mean you set your mind in not trying to ? Why ?

    Japanese superiority? If you are a bimbo, poorly dressed, shooting hot air, gold on your hands, wrists and the neck, dirty jeans and so forth, you will 'get it' everywhere on this melone.
    The theory of nihonjinron I referred to dates from WWII, and was revived in the Bubble Years, when the Japanese economy was growing so fast that many Japanese thought that their system was intrinsicly superior, owing to their superior culture. Have you never read about Japan to say such things ?

    Let's face it, foreigners who go to live in Japan are rarely the "brain surgeons".
    Maybe not brain surgeons, but it seems to me that about half of the Westerners at least in central Tokyo are expats, i.e. usually top managers, financial analysts, embassy staff, etc. Did you know that one cannot get a working visa in Japan without a 4-year university degree ? That sets a minimum to what kind of people they accept as residents.

    I have seen there many and all kinds of foreigners with whom I would not care to sit down.
    What does that sentence mean ? Sit down ? Do you mean sit in the traditional seiza position, which most young Japanese people can't maintain properly for a full meal ?

    Foreigners living in Japan are not a representative specs of theirs own countries. Too many "teachers", bartenders, "entertainers", too.
    Whatever, except for the entertainers that are mostly Asian, all must have a 4-year university degree. This indeed does not make it very representative of their country's population, which surprises me all the more knowing that so many Japanese believe that the recent rise in crime in Japan is due to foreigners in general (not just those from developing countries).

  18. #93
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livi
    you are putting your words into my mouth - none of this i claim - only an idiot would
    *i am older than you, but good looking too, not once had anyone 'accosted' me on the train or elsewhere - leeching. i wish some of the beautiful girls would (that would be rather rare in australia)
    How long have you actually stayed in Japan ? I got from your post that you didn't live there, but just visited a few times, which is probably why you didn't experience most of these things.

    This is a bit offtopic, but it took me over a year to start being annoyed by these things. In fact had I stayed only for a year, I would never have been checked by the police. The first time was almost 2 years after I came to Japan, and it was followed by 5 more times in one and a half year. If you don't ride a bicycle everyday (I didn't the first one and a half year), your chance of being bullied by the police are lower.

    You will only realise how deeply ingrained and wide-spread some stereotypes and misconceptions about foreigners/westerners are after talking to hundreds of people from all over Japan (good point of Tokyo is that half of the people working there are not originally from the Tokyo region). I was not much annoyed aout some questions until being asked them again, and again, and again. I don't mind one or even 5 people ask me if I can use chopsticks or eat sushi, but when it becomes a routine and you can't have a friendly conversation (I mean non-business related) or going to a restaurant with new aquaintances without being asked those identical questions, and get the same dumb "oohh" and "aahh" or "ohashi no tsukaikata jozu desu ne", it becomes somewhat tiresome and you wonder if those people were taught to ask foreigners these questions, as it cannot be a coincidence on such a scale and regularity.

    I realise that this may not be a problem for the short-term visitor, but it is for the long-stay resident.

    *apartments leasing has nothing to do with 'criminals' - you are exaggerating
    Would you care to have a look at the articles in the Immigration & Foreigners subforum, and read the article Discrimination in Japan.

    *i myself own apts for rent and have to be careful - i had problems few times
    So do you ask people if they are "normal", meaning the same race as you ? (see this article) or does that allow you to post a sign with "no dogs or foreigners allowed", as has been seen several times (without legal consequence) in Japan ?

  19. #94
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekamaster
    Gomen, but what did foreigners do to merit such prejudice ?
    Westerners, nothing. Foreigners as a whole have always been "suspect" in Japan, just for not being Japanese. WWII may be over, but prejudices die hard. The Japanese media and government like to report foreign crime as a whole without distinguishing nationalities, saying such things as "crime has been rising in Japan due to an icreased number of foreigners" and forgetting to mention that the crime rate among Japanese was in fact increasing more than among foreigners, and that this is due to 15 years of economic stagnation. The problem is that most Japanese are very influenceable, naive ane quite credulous of things that comes from their government and media.

    Just have a look at Japanese websites, especially those of the government. They try to scare the public with the increase of foreigners in their "pure" country. Here is an example given by Shiro (who is Japanese) in this thread. It represents evolution of the foreign population (in red) compared to the total population of Japan. Look at the scales. The one for foreigners is in "thousands", while those for Japanese is in "hundred of thousands", so that the increase in foreigner appears more dramatic.

    If you search the internet, you'll find thousands of Japanese sites treating of the relatively minor problem of foreign crime (it accounts for about 2% of the total crimes in Japan, in proportion to the foreign population). I searched Google with the keywords "外国人犯罪 増加" ("foreign crime" increase) and got over 10,000 results). Have a look at this article explaining the problem of overreporting foreign crimes in Japan.

  20. #95
    livi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    You must actually be an exception. How can you have spend some time (several weeks/months ?) in Japan and not be able to use chopsticks ? Does that mean you set your mind in not trying to ? Why ?



    The theory of nihonjinron I referred to dates from WWII, and was revived in the Bubble Years, when the Japanese economy was growing so fast that many Japanese thought that their system was intrinsicly superior, owing to their superior culture. Have you never read about Japan to say such things ?



    Maybe not brain surgeons, but it seems to me that about half of the Westerners at least in central Tokyo are expats, i.e. usually top managers, financial analysts, embassy staff, etc. Did you know that one cannot get a working visa in Japan without a 4-year university degree ? That sets a minimum to what kind of people they accept as residents.



    What does that sentence mean ? Sit down ? Do you mean sit in the traditional seiza position, which most young Japanese people can't maintain properly for a full meal ?



    Whatever, except for the entertainers that are mostly Asian, all must have a 4-year university degree. This indeed does not make it very representative of their country's population, which surprises me all the more knowing that so many Japanese believe that the recent rise in crime in Japan is due to foreigners in general (not just those from developing countries).
    Maciamo, thank you for your views.

    Chopstiks - as I wrote, I do not find eating with chopstics appealing - believe me, I am not a snob, but really I have even difficulty to watch someone to use them - it is simply to me - let's put it this way - unaesthetic. It may be due to some residual european bigotry in me, I plead guilty for it. It may be, that I have observed some 'wrong' people using them. My Japanese friends didn't mind it at all, they automatically asked for a fork for me. Not an issue at all.

    Yes, many do feel superior, I suppose most of them would be old. I did not feel it, and here you are probably right, as I did not live there and more importantly, had never been engaged in any employment situation. The ones, that may look like that, to me were rather pitiful creatures, with arrogant manners on the train. My japanese companion noticed it, too. Of course, this you will find in many other, mainly european countries, which feel special by the nature of their history or achievements. I understand, that at the the work place it can be destructive.
    I do not know exactly the working status of foreigners, but in Roppongi, many are whites, americans and europeans simply behind the bar or as waiters.

    "Sit down" - I have learned it long ago, that you do not socialize with just anybody. I try to use my judgment. It pays off.

    Finally, Maciamo, I did not use the word "normal", but you have to use your common sense , there is no better way yet around. I could name for you right now here at least one respected european country where you would face the same discrimination.
    Some of the bad things we just have to accept, otherwise we would have to stay at home.

    I may be somewhat prejudiced as I socialize here at home with some japanese girls-flriends and always had a ball in Japan. Became almost a part of a big family there in Chiba.
    I've been to Japan 3 times, allogether I guess about 8 weeks. Not enough.

    My regards to your japanese wife.
    Last edited by livi; Mar 29, 2005 at 23:00.

  21. #96
    目録 Index's Avatar
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    Why is it that I get negative rep points whenever I show up in this thread? Must be pissing someone off...

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    中国語と英語、日本語の文法の話しは孤立語と屈折語と 膠着語との関連の観点からの話でしょ。
    英語の内の孤立語的な性質と中国語、日本語との比較。
    その当否は教養の無い俺なんかにはわからんけどね。

    箸とか日本語とかの話ね、季節もそうかな?
    日本語の言いまわしから訳してCanとかHaveとか使っち 痰、から馬鹿にしてるとか、
    差別してるって怒られるんだよね。
    相づちや合いの手を沢山入れても、或いは感心したり誉 めても
    馬鹿にしてるって怒る人が居るし。
    日本で、日本の文化の範囲の中で振舞ってるんだけど馬 鹿だのレイシストだって
    お目玉食らうのね。相手が日本語から訳して相手の文化 で理解して怒るってのも るわな。
    面倒くさくて疲れる。

  23. #98
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konoike no neko
    中国語と英語、日本語の文法の話しは孤立語と屈折語と 膠着語との関連の観点からの話でしょ。
    英語の内の孤立語的な性質と中国語、日本語との比較。
    その当否は教養の無い俺なんかにはわからんけどね。

    箸とか日本語とかの話ね、季節もそうかな?
    日本語の言いまわしから訳してCanとかHaveとか使っち 痰、から馬鹿にしてるとか、
    差別してるって怒られるんだよね。
    相づちや合いの手を沢山入れても、或いは感心したり誉 めても
    馬鹿にしてるって怒る人が居るし。
    日本で、日本の文化の範囲の中で振舞ってるんだけど馬 鹿だのレイシストだって
    お目玉食らうのね。相手が日本語から訳して相手の文化 で理解して怒るってのも るわな。
    面倒くさくて疲れる。
    I have tried to translate this, but unfortunately I could not make much sense of what was being said. If somebody can help me shed some light on what Konoike no neko wanted to say. The main problem is that I don't know who he/she is talking about, as he/she did not write the subject in most sentences. Here is my attempted translation.

    --------------
    "This discussion is about English, Chinese and Japanese grmmar and the relation between isolating languages, inflected languages and agglutinative languages, isn't it ?
    (It is about) the comparison between the isolating properties inside English, and Chinese and Japanese.
    Not being very cultivated I cannot judge which is right or wrong.

    Talking about chopsticks or Japanese language, or maybe even the seasons ?
    Because of the way of saying things in Japanese, when translating mistakenly use "can". "have", etc., some people think they are being made fun of, and they that it is discimination and get angry, don't they ?

    Even pausing often, or even admiring or praising someone, some people think we are making fun of them and get angry.

    In Japan, within the confines of Japanese culture, people behave like this, but saying it's stupid or racism, we get our eyeballs eaten (???). When the one person translate from Japanese and understand it with their culture, it of course happens that they makes them angry.

    Aah, it's so troublesome it tires me."
    -------------

    First of all, I don't know why Konoike no neko starts talking about the the linguistic relations between English, Chinese and Japanese.

    Then I have no idea what's his/her point about chopsticks, Japanese language or the seasons.

    I also don't remember that we talked about anybody being made fun of because they misused English words like "can", "have" or whatever. Maybe this is about saying "can you eat sushi?" instead of "do you like sushi?", but if it is it is irrelevant because I am usually asked "sushi wo taberareru?" and not "sushi wo suki desu ka?" in Japanese. If it's cultural, it means that the Japanese are racist by the very properties of their culture (see below).

    I only understand the 2 last paragraphs, but I don't know what it has to do with this thread. Regarding the chopsticks, I didn't even complain about people trying to make fun of foreigners by saying they can use well their chopsticks. The only fact that they ask someone who they know has been living in Japan for several years whether they can use chopsticks is rude and condescending, and the difference of culture is no excuse. The difference of culture would excuse that they ask short-term visitors. Westerners don't normally ask Japanese or other Asian visitors if they can use a fork and knife. I can understand that the Japanese culture influence them into asking these questions to people who've just come to Japan, but never to people who have been living in Japan for years and are married to a Japanese.

    I also don't know why "racism" was evoked here. I think that one of the problems of many Japanese is that they have no idea of what "racism" means. There is no (simple) word in Japanese for racism, and most of the Japanese I have talked to think it is related to violence (eg. beating up people of a different race). Being racist, however, just means that one person believes that "there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race" (defintion from the Oxford Dictionary). In that sense, I'd say that any Japanese person who thinks that a foreigner who has lived in Japan for several years may not be able to use chopsticks, sleep on a futon, etc. just because he or she is a foreigner is racist, according to the Oxford dictionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooker
    Igloos? I think that might be going a little far. I think some Canadians often imagine the misconceptions about them. A twelve year old might have some misconceptions, but I think most Americans think Canada is very similar to America (which probably makes Canadians angrier than wild misconceptions ).

    But I agree that stupid people are everywhere and ridiculous misconceptions happen everywhere.
    I am an american, was born in colorado, moved to canada when i was six years old, and then moved back to the usa when i was 18. I kind of consider myself more of a canadian than an american since I grew up and went through grades 2-12 there, and I hold both USA and Canadian citizenship. When people ask me what nationality I am... i usually reply that I am canadian. Once I explain how I was born in colorado, and moved to canada etc... I have been asked by many people in the USA if "it was hard living with no roads, traffic lights, etc", or "if its good to be back in civilized america"... i was dumbfounded by the idiocy of many of the questions. Now, I am in NO WAY saying that all americans think like this... just that it does happen more often than some would expect.

    There are many problems with ignorance in Canada too though. Many people when they knew I was an american in canada, hated me outright for being an american, no matter who I was or what I liked. I was hated MUCH more for being an american in canada than i am for being "mostly" a canadian in the USA now. I recieved comments in Canada like "goddamn george bush lover", without them knowing if I even support him or not... and "stop attacking other countries you evil *****", while I obviously don't have control over the US military, and without them knowing if i support the USA's current foreign policy or not. But not everyone is like this there obviously, im just saying that this happens more in canada than the usa.

    That said though... there probably aren't as close to as many ignorant canadians about the USA as ignorant americans about canada, mostly due to american culture being totally rampant in canada (for example. tons of the channels on cable TV in canada are american channels, and channels which aren't american have mostly american programs on them anyways). I sometimes consider Canada the "51st state" (in a joking way), since they are similar in so many ways.

    please note that im using the term "american" as reffering to the USA.
    Last edited by zeroyon; May 4, 2005 at 16:32.

  25. #100
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    Mar 15, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by livi
    I have seen there many and all kinds of foreigners with whom I would not care to sit down.
    You like you very much, don't you. That's nice; somebody should.

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