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View Poll Results: Is Japan a Western country (please read the thread before)

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  • Yes

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  • Maybe, depends how you see it

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  • No

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Thread: Is Japan a Western country ?

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  1. #1
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Question Is Japan a Western country ?

    Of course, it all depends on what we call "Western". There are several definitions.

    First, the geographical opposition between Europe and Asia, but that alone has turned out to be a too simple definition, as Australia or New Zealand are more East than Asia, but definitely Western. So is it a cultural or ethnic distinction rather purely geographical ?

    Secondly, Western used to refer to the Capitalist world during the cold war. The East-West opposition was especially valid for Europe, but on a global point of view, America the NATO countries laid West, while the communist world (not only the USSR, but also China and North Korea) laid East.

    Finally (I think), most Europeans consider that a Western country is about the same as an industrialised/developped one.

    The 2 latter points, Japan is definitely Western, and I think that's also where most Europeans would place Japan (from the opinions I have heard). Nonetheless, Japanese always stress the opposition between themselves and Westerners (or foreigners in general). They certainly not feel Western, but what if others consider them as such because they have a different definition ?

    Before developping more deeply, I let you reflect on this and give your opinions.

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  2. #2
    Decommissioned ex-admin thomas's Avatar
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    Simplistic answer:

    I view Japan as industrialized country, though not as "Western".

    Western = Christian background (common history, values, morals, culture)

  3. #3
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    So, does that mean that non-Christian European, Americans, etc. are not Westerners ? For instance, I have absolutely nothing to do with Christians values, moral and believes, nevertheless, I am a Westerner. Nowadays, a majority of young Europeans don't care about religion or are Christian just on paper (never attend church or far from convinced that the Bible is the Truth). Among these, about 5-10% of people are atheist. Then, countries like France or the UK have about 10% of their population that is Muslim. Eventhough they were born and raised in Europe, aren't these people Westerners ? What about Caucasians muslims (Serbs...) or converts ?

    Then, whith the logic Western = Christian background (common history, values, morals, culture), Filipinos should be Westerners, as they are more fanatically Christian than most Europeans, have 500 years of colonial Christian history and are culturally more Spanish-American than Asian.

    Same for the 25% of Koreans that are Christians. Are they Westerners ? If so, what about the 75% left, Buddhist or Atheist ?

    Are Coptic Egyptian or Christian Syrian, Iraqi or Armenian Westerners because they share all the history, values, moral than Europeans ? Anyway, culturally, there a Syrian is probably as near of a Greek than a Greek from an Irish or Finn. Greeks share so much with Turkish that only the religion and language separate them. Greeks are the historical pillar of Western values (democracy, philosophy, reason, sciences...).

    That brings us to the next point : Weren't Romans or Ancient Greeks Westerners ? If not, when can we talk for the first time of Western country ?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So, does that mean that non-Christian European, Americans, etc. are not Westerners ? For instance, I have absolutely nothing to do with Christians values, moral and believes, nevertheless, I am a Westerner. Nowadays, a majority of young Europeans don't care about religion or are Christian just on paper (never attend church or far from convinced that the Bible is the Truth). Among these, about 5-10% of people are atheist. Then, countries like France or the UK have about 10% of their population that is Muslim. Eventhough they were born and raised in Europe, aren't these people Westerners ? What about Caucasians muslims (Serbs...) or converts ?

    Then, whith the logic Western = Christian background (common history, values, morals, culture), Filipinos should be Westerners, as they are more fanatically Christian than most Europeans, have 500 years of colonial Christian history and are culturally more Spanish-American than Asian.

    Same for the 25% of Koreans that are Christians. Are they Westerners ? If so, what about the 75% left, Buddhist or Atheist ?

    Are Coptic Egyptian or Christian Syrian, Iraqi or Armenian Westerners because they share all the history, values, moral than Europeans ? Anyway, culturally, there a Syrian is probably as near of a Greek than a Greek from an Irish or Finn. Greeks share so much with Turkish that only the religion and language separate them. Greeks are the historical pillar of Western values (democracy, philosophy, reason, sciences...).

    That brings us to the next point : Weren't Romans or Ancient Greeks Westerners ? If not, when can we talk for the first time of Western country ?
    From what I see, you try hard to convince peoples at least who read your topic that Japan is a western country since you yourself badly wish to be Japanese while you can not change the fact that you are not Japanese or even Asian but a westerner who love to make fantasy about Japan.

    But on topic, Japan IS Asian country with many facts such as =
    - Japanese not calling themselves as westerner but as Asians
    - Japan never participate on western only stuff such as on European football games but participate on Asian only stuff such as Asian Champion or ASIAN games, etc.
    - Japan is located in Asia, not in the west.
    - Japanese GENE and DNA are Asian DNA and GENE which makes Japanese, Chinese. Philippine or other Asian look alike and not look like westerner.
    - Japanese culture is Asian based culture such as you will not see Japanese female topless on the beach unlike westerner females on the beach.

    There are many other reasons but thuse are already enough to prove it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member kusojiji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proud Asian Kid View Post
    - Japan never participate on western only stuff such as on European football games but participate on Asian only stuff such as Asian Champion or ASIAN games, etc.

    That is obviously not true and you are obviously an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud Asian Kid View Post
    democracy in Japan is deferent than in other western country.

    How so, exactly?
    Last edited by kusojiji; Apr 28, 2009 at 07:04. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  6. #6
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    My opinion of a Western country may cahnge, depending on which way am I faced and where I might be.

    More seriously, I thought that the whole East-West thing surfaced during the cold war. I guess there are a lot of "east-west" definitions available, wether is economically, socially or politically. As long as there are differences you can agree on the existence of a bipolar system.... with several layers of cake.

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  7. #7
    Decommissioned ex-admin thomas's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maciamo
    So, does that mean that non-Christian European, Americans, etc. are not Westerners ? For instance, I have absolutely nothing to do with Christians values, moral and believes, nevertheless, I am a Westerner. Nowadays, a majority of young Europeans don't care about religion or are Christian just on paper (never attend church or far from convinced that the Bible is the Truth). Among these, about 5-10% of people are atheist.
    I referred to "Christian" in a strictly cultural, not a religious sense. With "background" I meant shared history, culture, arts, literature, legal & political principles, morals and ethics. I would not consider myself to be a spiritual person, but I was raised with these values, and I dare to assume that the same applies even to "Western" atheists. The environment is a vital element of socialization.

    Then, countries like France or the UK have about 10% of their population that is Muslim. Eventhough they were born and raised in Europe, aren't these people Westerners ? What about Caucasians muslims (Serbs...) or converts ?
    Hm, I'd subsumize European Muslims under the same global equation as above. Don't put too much emphasis on the term "Christian". It's an amalgam of the factors I quoted above, view it as common heritage.

    There are certainly a lot of other population segments that can't be categorized as easily (provided there's a need for categorization, lol). Hm, perhaps also depends on if they want to be seen as Western.

    Then, whith the logic Western = Christian background (common history, values, morals, culture), Filipinos should be Westerners, as they are more fanatically Christian than most Europeans, have 500 years of colonial Christian history and are culturally more Spanish-American than Asian. Same for the 25% of Koreans that are Christians. Are they Westerners ? If so, what about the 75% left, Buddhist or Atheist ?
    That's true. However, what's the alternative to the "hereditary approach" mentioned above? A racial approach? Yack!

    Are Coptic Egyptian or Christian Syrian, Iraqi or Armenian Westerners because they share all the history, values, moral than Europeans ? Anyway, culturally, there a Syrian is probably as near of a Greek than a Greek from an Irish or Finn. Greeks share so much with Turkish that only the religion and language separate them. Greeks are the historical pillar of Western values (democracy, philosophy, reason, sciences...).
    Christian minorities in the Middle East are indeed an interesting case. The Copts view themselves as true Egyptians, combining Christian and ancient Egyptian heritage. They do not view themselves as Western, although many of their Muslim compatriots consider them as - let's put it that way - "Western elements". Let's call these minorities "Western-related".

    That brings us to the next point : Weren't Romans or Ancient Greeks Westerners ?
    Pre-westerners.

    If not, when can we talk for the first time of Western country ?
    This question needs further reflection.

  8. #8
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  9. #9
    Regular Member den4's Avatar
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    Perhaps westerns are only for the movies...
    seriously, I think industrialization and government types are not the leading thing to say which country is western or not, more like which nations were originally european and became the majority of that particular country, along with the language spoken...asia is predominantly asian, africans are predominantly black....Australians and New Zealanders tend to be run under British rule, so it is now a western nation with european values, and so is america (even if it became independent of British rule)...think these are what makes a country Western....and Japan is definitely not taken after the european mold, even if the government was set up by americans after the second world war...
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  10. #10
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by den4
    seriously, I think industrialization and government types are not the leading thing to say which country is western or not, more like which nations were originally european and became the majority of that particular country, along with the language spoken...asia is predominantly asian, africans are predominantly black....Australians and New Zealanders tend to be run under British rule, so it is now a western nation with european values, and so is america (even if it became independent of British rule)...think these are what makes a country Western....
    That's a bit simple. I want to ask you what you'd do with a country having roughly half its population from European origin and the other not. There aren't any such well defined country nowadays, but there could be. New Zealand, with only 3,5 million people (75% Europeans), could very well "go Asian" in a not so remote future with the current immigration levels.

    Let's take another, real, example. Bolivia and Peru are almost always put i the Western country group because they are in America, ex-Spanish colonies, with Spanish as official language. However, less than 15% of the population (in both countries) are from European descent. More than 60% are Ameridians, in majority Quechua or Aymara, speaking Quechua or Aymara. Their culture is still very similar to what it was during the Inca empire, religion and modernity (cars, electricity...) notwithstanding. So, can this European minority justify that these country are Western, even when life there is probably much more different than in Europe, North America, Australia or... Japan ?

    If the ethny defines Westerness, few South American countries are Western (except Chile, Argentina and Uruguay). Mexico is composed of 1/3 of Amerindians and the 2/3 left are mestizo (mixed European and Amerindian descent). Honduras is 90% mestizo, 7% Indian, say my sources. Haiti is 95% African descent, 5% mulatto and European descent. Brazil only has 55% of its people from European descent. That would be absurd to divide South America's Westerness just on basis each country's ethnic composition. Or I am wrong ?


    and Japan is definitely not taken after the european mold, even if the government was set up by americans after the second world war...
    Japan has copied the biggest part of its political, legal, economical and educational systems on the West since the Meiji era. You refer to the Constitution imposed by the US after WWII, but that's just a detail of what has been Westernised in Japan.

  11. #11
    Banned ghettocities's Avatar
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    Japan is just playing the role of poser, it's like calling someone a model just because they own a pair designer jeans, or a better example is like Matsui coming over and playing for the Yankees, they have baseball in Japan but wait, whats that? america has it made and this makes japan fiend to be more "western" in everything it does to the point that they are fleeing their tiny island smaller than california to try and get a piece of our rich golden-brown american pie. so this leads me to believe what i hear time and time again, that the "majority" of Japanese people want to affilate themselves with america in any way they can, thus the reason why we don't have mail order brides in the states, case closed.

    God bless america,
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    Last edited by Maciamo; Jan 16, 2003 at 20:59.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocities View Post
    Japan is just playing the role of poser, it's like calling someone a model just because they own a pair designer jeans, or a better example is like Matsui coming over and playing for the Yankees, they have baseball in Japan but wait, whats that? america has it made and this makes japan fiend to be more "western" in everything it does to the point that they are fleeing their tiny island smaller than california to try and get a piece of our rich golden-brown american pie. so this leads me to believe what i hear time and time again, that the "majority" of Japanese people want to affilate themselves with america in any way they can, thus the reason why we don't have mail order brides in the states, case closed.
    God bless america,
    Josh
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    I want to just add for fun, a Japanese sentiment mixed with my British. Fusing British and Japanese mindset, I would like to ask, why would you Japanese want to align yourselves with the vulgar Americans when you could be refined enough to be with the British? Don't sell yourself short by aligning yourselves with the dreggs of Europe! They are but peasants. Don't sell yourselves short!

    Quote Originally Posted by den4 View Post
    Perhaps westerns are only for the movies...
    seriously, I think industrialization and government types are not the leading thing to say which country is western or not, more like which nations were originally european and became the majority of that particular country, along with the language spoken...asia is predominantly asian, africans are predominantly black....Australians and New Zealanders tend to be run under British rule, so it is now a western nation with european values, and so is america (even if it became independent of British rule)...think these are what makes a country Western....and Japan is definitely not taken after the european mold, even if the government was set up by americans after the second world war...
    Hmm, speaking of wannabee, perhaps you are right. Goldiegirl did mention that her husband was "congratulated" for being able to get a white woman, as if she was some sort of a fine set of antlers! But I wouldn't have thought that the Japanese are on the same level as those from the Philipines. (Hey, now that counts for a Western country as it is a Christian country!)
    Last edited by bexchurnside; Dec 7, 2006 at 22:09. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #13
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    eastern in my case
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  14. #14
    Regular Member den4's Avatar
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    on second thoughts, Japan is a wannabe western nation, but it's definitely eastern....it has its own convoluted system borrowed from other countries and they still can't figure out how to find their way out of a paper bag...in getting the economy back up again....but that's my impression...I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I think they make it complicated, making excuses on why they can't implement reforms....mostly due to dat olde boy mentality still lurking in the shadows....

  15. #15
    Regular Member samuraitora's Avatar
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    Japan is NOT a western nation, or at least that is my opinion. I have to agree with what Thomas said about them being "industrialized" not western. They don't have the same beleifs that we do. That is the main factor that seperates them.
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  16. #16
    Banned ricecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samuraitora
    Japan is NOT a western nation, or at least that is my opinion. I have to agree with what Thomas said about them being "industrialized" not western. They don't have the same beleifs that we do. That is the main factor that seperates them.
    Well said .... Japan indeed is AN ORIENTAL COUNTRY.

    I would loosely say,Japanese suppress their " eastern-ness " in order to win approval from THE WEST.

  17. #17
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricecake
    Well said .... Japan indeed is AN ORIENTAL COUNTRY.
    I would loosely say,Japanese suppress their " eastern-ness " in order to win approval from THE WEST.
    I beg to differ, Japanese suppress their eastern-ness in order to avoid forced-westernization by the west.

  18. #18
    Kongming jeisan's Avatar
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    japan is the land of the rising sun, the sun rises in the east, therefore japan is eastern
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  19. #19
    Regular Member shao's Avatar
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    before and during WW II, Japan tried to make itself as "Leader of Asia" by taking the control of the whole of Asia and kicking Westerns out of Asia. Japanese said "Asia is for Asian only!"

    after US took Japan, Japanese dont like the fact that they are part of Asia because most asian nations are third-world.

    now... um... i only think Japan as "Being kick out of Asia"...

  20. #20
    Regular Member karmy's Avatar
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    i dont know
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  21. #21
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    Japan is Different, Different than any other place on earth, it is the most technoligacally advances socity in the world while at the same time holding some of the oldest traditions. Asian a weird term, most people almost always think ""Chinese" when you say Asian. and no one considers Russia Asian, Russia is very western and takes up basically half of the contanant of Aisa. Japan is Asian but is becoming more western everyday!

  22. #22
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    Squareboy ..this says it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Squareboy
    Japan is Different, Different than any other place on earth, it is the most technoligacally advances socity in the world while at the same time holding some of the oldest traditions. Asian a weird term, most people almost always think ""Chinese" when you say Asian. and no one considers Russia Asian, Russia is very western and takes up basically half of the contanant of Aisa. Japan is Asian but is becoming more western everyday!
    A "square boy" who doesn't realise that japan has copied every tech. development to get where it is today. japan is retro

  23. #23
    Regular Member hua he's Avatar
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    If Japan want to become western country, they must eradicate the use of Chinese(Kanji) in Japanese.
    Sayonara!

  24. #24
    Regular Member tasuki's Avatar
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    Squareboy
    If you think that Japan is the most technologically advanced country in the world, you've obviously never been here.

    hua he
    What do kanji have anything to do with being a Western country? Greece is a Western country and uses Greek characters...

    Little history lesson boys and girls. Why is it "Western"? Because the world was and still is dominated by cultures that are located in the arbitrarily called "Western" hemisphere. Even though this denomination is totally arbitrary, Japan is still not in this historically recognized hemisphere of the world and thus will NEVER be a "Western" country in that sense of the word.

    For those of you who think that being "western" is more a state of mind than a geographical location, let me put this to you. What are Japanese really enamoured of: the western way of life or the IDEA of the western way of life? I stipulate that they love the IDEA, not the fact, just as most of you here (and me until living in Japan) are taken with the idea of Japan (to all of you different and unique). Again, Japan fails to become a Western country.

    From where I stand, Japan may be westernized, but it will NEVER ever be a "Western" country and we should be happy about it.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member hua he's Avatar
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    Actually, the so called "western" and "eastern" countries was actually differentiated racially.

    Just see, as long as it is a country with white in charge, this is a western country. If the country is with blacks or yellows in charge, it will be an eastern country.

    THis is the view of the whole world.

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