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View Poll Results: Is Japan a Western country (please read the thread before)

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  • Yes

    35 9.80%
  • Maybe, depends how you see it

    123 34.45%
  • No

    186 52.10%
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Thread: Is Japan a Western country ?

  1. #51
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    Of course geographically it is...but its not really.
    It is very mush so influenced by America.
    of course it has japanese traditions and etc, but its not like other asian countries.

  2. #52
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by chiquiliquis
    Why again is it important (necessary?) to be able to call people "eastern" or "western"... ?

    This is certainly an interesting thread
    I agree with both sentences. It's an interesting thread well brought up by Maciamo. Thanks.

    As for wether we are westerners or esterners will specifically depend wher you stand and wether you are facing north or south ...
    Well it was intended as a joke, (and not as a stupid statement) just to shift the emphasis from a mere statement to a reality. It's just used by "whoever give some information" to sort of localize physically and geographically the subject. But since we always pick up what the Europeans say, we, in Asia, have been call the "easterner" .

    It's just a name, not an insult or injurious name. It was not meant to be anyway. So let's keep it at that.

    The main question asked in fact meant : Is Japan becomming too much of a "Europeanised and Americanized" country. And that somehow wouold b a shame, somewher (as I mentionned earlier)
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  3. #53
    tokyo dancer chiquiliquis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yimija
    It's just used by "whoever give some information" to sort of localize physically and geographically the subject.
    I agree

    The main question asked in fact meant : Is Japan becomming too much of a "Europeanised and Americanized" country. And that somehow wouold b a shame, somewher (as I mentionned earlier)
    I see...

    So:
    What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?

    This isn't necessarily a question solely for Yimija, but something I am just throwing out... If it has alreadey been answered elsewhere in the thread, "gomen"... but this thread is getting long, and I came in late... I admit to skimming a bit.
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  4. #54
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart we all do... skimming !

    Quote Originally Posted by chiquiliquis

    What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?

    This isn't necessarily a question solely for Yimija, but something I am just throwing out... If it has alreadey been answered elsewhere in the thread, "gomen"... but this thread is getting long, and I came in late... I admit to skimming a bit.
    Sorry, I just do not completely agree with the term "globalization", simply because, if you look in a dictionnary, it means roughly "putting everything on the same level" and the actual globalization tend to skip and put apart all the poor countries, the so called 3rd world and the non "interresting-commercially" countries.

    Like for exemple : Irak is completely part of globalization because it has billions of $$ worth of petrol, so we care about killing there, but Rwanda is a "non-interresting-commercially" country and so we dont give a..XXXXX (wont say the word) about the ethnic massacres, killing hundreds of thousands of people. So I believe (in fact I'm certain) globalization is a product for the riches, invented by the riches. So let's keep it "western, eastern, northern and southern" and we might know what we are talking about.


    and dot worry about skimming, we all do it when it comes to a long thread.

  5. #55
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    Japan is clearly NO Western country. "Western" means the opposite from "Eastern", which in turn refers to the Asian countries (Japan, China etc.).
    "Western" refers to populations from the northern half of the Eurasian continent, and to North-American populations.
    So is Russian an Eastern countries, as it is clearly more East than Europe ? If not what about Turkey, Israel ? Is Morroco a Western countries because it is next to Western Europe ?

    Populations from Africa and South-America are neither Western nor Eastern, but Southern populations (more frequently also called "3rd-world-countries").
    Are you saying that Chile and Argentina (90% of pure European descent) are not Western countries ?

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  6. #56
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart the shift of continents...

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    So is Russian an Eastern countries, as it is clearly more East than Europe ? If not what about Turkey, Israel ? Is Morroco a Western countries because it is next to Western Europe ?
    Yes good remark, Maciamo ! As time goes by and that continents shifts in extremely slow motion, the countries that are built on those continents will have a tendency to move extremely fast from "east to west", strangely enough !!! Ima-Sumac only knows where Israel and Turkey stand, especially if you compare them with the Palestinian country...


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Are you saying that Chile and Argentina (90% of pure European descent) are not Western countries ?
    Unfortunately, they are not considered as western countries, and that is all the "funny" (i should say bizarre) part of it since that they are, geographically, just as much "west" as US & Canada. Africa is about the same as Europe and they are not not considered western.


    Somewhere, and it's far from being a conclusion, it make me sick that we have to adopt a system in which we now are forced to give graduate "appreciation" of one's location and one's "wealth-by-location". I'm an optimistic person and I hope it will change. But I wont be here to see it. I'm planning a trip back home to Venus...

  7. #57
    tokyo dancer chiquiliquis's Avatar
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    NOTE: long reply with not a lot of mention of Japan... but I'm hoping in the end it will be pertinent.

    and so:

    Quote Originally Posted by yimija
    Sorry, I just do not completely agree with the term "globalization", simply because, if you look in a dictionnary, it means roughly "putting everything on the same level" and the actual globalization tend to skip and put apart all the poor countries, the so called 3rd world and the non "interresting-commercially" countries.
    OK... I think I follow you...

    Like for exemple : Irak is completely part of globalization because it has billions of $$ worth of petrol, so we care about killing there, but Rwanda is a "non-interresting-commercially" country and so we dont give a..XXXXX (wont say the word) about the ethnic massacres, killing hundreds of thousands of people.
    I can see your point here... but I think it is slippery. Ever been to Colombia? Plenty of oil (British Petrol, Occidental etc..) like Iraq... .... also, like Iraq... not the most stable source of oil (a lot of civil unrest).

    And like Rwanda, a whole lot of killings... paramilitary death squads, government corruption... Interesting fact: Colombia has the worlds third largest displaced population (after Chad and Angola? Don't quote me on those..). At least last time I checked--prolly 2002.

    I'll give five dollars to the first person here who remembers the Florida case where Coca Cola was brought up on accusations of using Colombian paramilitaries to murder unionists. That one never made front page here at home... How many people here can name just one of the (USDS recognized) terrorist groups in Colombia... How many can name two? Three? (Congrats... if you named all three, you ought to consider employment with the U.S. Dept. of State ).

    That emerald in the ring you bought wifey? Good chance it came from Colombia. That coffee you're drinking? Good chance it came from Colombia. That gas you just put in your car? Good chance some of it came from Colombia.

    I don't know about the rest of the world, but Average-Joe-American (stopping at BP for gas, with a cup of coffee in his hand) knows nothing about the Mapiripan Masacre (30 people in a small village dismembered one by one with a chainsaw in a local slaughterhouse, with the cooperation of the Colombian National Military--the same military we throw millions upon millions of US tax dollars at to take care of "our" drug problem).

    I'm hoping you see my point... lots of "commercial interest", very little "awareness".

    So I believe (in fact I'm certain) globalization is a product for the riches, invented by the riches.
    I'm largely with you here...

    But, I don't really see the point of all this.

    I think what you may be trying to say is that there is a problem with the way we define Globalization: It's not really global (since it has/wants nothing to do with the third world--Colombia being an exception).

    I see it thus: Japan, is NOT a third world country. The question is still valid as it pertains to Japan. While I would still pose the question to Colombia today... I will not pose it to Rwanda, as I know very little about Rwanda... and am largely inclined to agree with your objection to the definition of "globalization" (regardless).

    Here is the question once more:

    What are the standards we use to measure cultural change, in terms of quality? IE: is it fair (a good idea/acceptable) to measure today's "Europeanised and Americanised" (a.k.a: "Globalised") Japan in terms of it's past alone? Do we use other standards, and what are they (if any)?


    And, lastly, I would put this to you: If you insist on pulling "Globalization" out of the discussion... please give me an example of a country that is being "Americanized and Europeanized" without being Globalized.

    Americanized, and Europeanized.... I take these to be dynamic terms involving more than just "customs" and "traditions", but economic and political philosophies as well. These are not just labels and categories... these are things that have been described as "wiping out" cultures--replacing them with MacDonald's, Coca Cola, Democracy, Christianity (?)... I believe these are the charges that have been made.


    But then... no globalization in Rwanda yet? They can drink Coca Cola, can't they... just wait.

  8. #58
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart not wrong nor right

    Quote Originally Posted by chiquiliquis
    NOTE: long reply with not a lot of mention of Japan... but
    I'm hoping in the end it will be pertinent..
    Yes it's pertinent, and although we might have different point of views and perception (or way to speak about it) we are basically not completely wrong and not completely right.

    It's an intricate situation and there will be as many different ways of seeing or explaining it as there are different people to talk about....

    But I thoroughly enjoyed reading you, so I say thank you.
    If I have a little more time, i'l come back to it, but now for the comming week, it seems a bit difficult. we'll see what others will have to say.

  9. #59
    tokyo dancer chiquiliquis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yimija
    ...It's an intricate situation and there will be as many different ways of seeing or explaining it as there are different people to talk about....
    ... Amen to that

    Quote Originally Posted by yimija
    ...But I thoroughly enjoyed reading you, so I say thank you...
    And thank you for showing yourself to be both a careful reader and a careful thinker

    If you do find the time to get back to this thread, I'll be looking forward to further hearing what you have to say.

  10. #60
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart ... thinker

    Quote Originally Posted by chiquiliquis
    ... Amen to that



    And thank you for showing yourself to be both a careful reader and a careful thinker

    If you do find the time to get back to this thread, I'll be looking forward to further hearing what you have to say.
    A thinker, yes, careful... I don't knos.. Have too many times in trouble speakin too fast... and telling it like it is...

    Yes, I'll be back, and I'm allready all over this forum... in all kind of directions and subjects... LOL
    see you around

  11. #61
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    What's the point of all this?


    Japan is not a Western nation, but it's nation that has been "westernized" in the past 150 years.

  12. #62
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart far west

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    What's the point of all this?


    Japan is not a Western nation, but it's nation that has been "westernized" in the past 150 years.
    yes I think everyone agree with you
    but you don't say if you like it or not
    (you'll probably answer that there is nothing you can do about it, no ?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by yimija
    yes I think everyone agree with you
    but you don't say if you like it or not
    (you'll probably answer that there is nothing you can do about it, no ?
    I like it that Japan has become a modern, industrially and technologically advanced nation.

    I don't like it that this has put a strain on people's lives, e.g. stress, poor health habits, pollution, extinction of wild animals (there have been wolves and wildcats until the end of 19the century; there are very few bears left), etc.

    But overall, positives far outweigh the negatives, and yes, there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm not bitching about it.

  14. #64
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart ok

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    I like it that Japan has become a modern, industrially and technologically advanced nation.

    I don't like it that this has put a strain on people's lives, e.g. stress, poor health habits, pollution, extinction of wild animals (there have been wolves and wildcats until the end of 19the century; there are very few bears left), etc.

    But overall, positives far outweigh the negatives, and yes, there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm not bitching about it.
    yes, good, I agree that we can be proud of the technological and industrial state of Japan.

    yes, this success have negative sides, and you mention some of them, important ones.

    I'm not sure that positive outweight negative, it depends in which situations and of course there is not much we can do, progress goes too fast for little one as we are can catch up with and try to stop...

  15. #65
    Regular Member aaltunn's Avatar
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    japanwestclub

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    What's the point of all this?


    Japan is not a Western nation, but it's nation that has been "westernized" in the past 150 years.
    hi...
    expedition to the unknown c.asia vol.1-2 (sven hedin??) :scientists all over europe examines newly discovered material at uygur territories discussing being modern...they met several archaeologists from japan (ealy1900's).Euros sure about that japan is successful at that time because of using west tech.nics.there is a great hegemony about west that no alternative way exists.Japan has been westernized but without dropping out own morals totally.
    they say that people never believed in marco polo because such stories about greater civilisations is impossible nor the equals...west is the chosen peoples lands forever...
    so Tarzan is a white instead of being asian or anything else...

    japan ,is among the west club housing east, has been westernized for 150 years.japan proves that alternative style of being modern exists.

    (scientists try to discover how 'll they explain the words west/east/left/right those whom coming from far universe )

  16. #66
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart >Tarzan

    Quote Originally Posted by aaltunn
    so Tarzan is a white instead of being asian or anything else...
    no, Tarzan is white because the story was written by a white writer, and was played by Johnny Weissmuller.
    If a Japanes had written the story, Tarzan would be the descendant of a proud japanese warrior and a lovely geisha.

  17. #67
    Samurai Golgo_13's Avatar
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    A Japanese male champion of the "Sasuke" competition would've made a great Tarzan -- swinging from vines.

    http://www.tbs.co.jp/program/sasuke2004.html

  18. #68
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    A Japanese male champion of the "Sasuke" competition would've made a great Tarzan -- swinging from vines.
    not sure, but it's a good animation...

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by yimija
    not sure, but it's a good animation...

    "Sasuke" is not an animation. It's a real live competition.

  20. #70
    Now it's me yimija's Avatar
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    Heart animation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    "Sasuke" is not an animation. It's a real live competition.
    Oh, I think I knew that from the start.
    Animation as per some dictionnaries :
    3) Movement, liveliness, generally collective. To put the animation in a group.
    2) ardor, ardor bet in an action,; vivacity. To discuss with animation.

  21. #71
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    Moushiwake nai. Gokai shimashita. "anime" ka to omoimashita.

    But I really do think that a Sasuke winner would be a good Tarzan . . . or a Spiderman.

  22. #72
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    hmm!

    the current situation of where i live, (Britain)
    makes Japan a western country, but whats the big deal about being a western country, does mean a big deal?

  23. #73
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    Read George Orwell's "1984", Japan is part of Oceania now.

    Under the term used in the book, Japan is now part of Oceania, the same goes for Singapore.

    China seems to be also more and more becoming part of Oceania, the same goes for Russia.

    In the end, most of the world probably will come under Oceania rules. Interestingly, the final frontier seems to be in the South East Asian area.


    Of course, in the book, Japan and China was part of Eastasia, while Europe and the former of Soviet Union was part of Eurasia, and Oceania basically has the largest portion of the three countries.

    The equatorial area (with exception of the ones in or near the American continent) were rarely part of any of these countries.

    http://www.crcs.k12.ny.us/hs/projects/litcrit/1984.htm

  24. #74
    Regular Member Wang's Avatar
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    Japan is not a western country. It has taken over some western stuff, but the core and most part of Japan is East Asian.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by potatoe
    the current situation of where i live, (Britain)
    makes Japan a western country, but whats the big deal about being a western country, does mean a big deal?
    You what ? America is west of the UK.
    So maybe China and Korea are western as well, since they are in that direction as well.
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