JREF Community now more populous than 11 countries

[Winter]

It took you until now to find out?

Well unfortunately, the mystery of Mac's rating had to take a backseat to the mystery of "How Winter will pay this months' rent/electric/water/car/hospital bill."

Its a shame I cant devote my life to discovering the mysteries this forum and its members have.

[TwistedMac]

I like cotton wad.

Its stickyness illuminates my gloom.

[lexico]

It is time to proclaim our independence and create JREF Land. Should JREF Land be :

1) a Republic (a president, a vice-president and forum ministers/secretaries)
2) a Monarchy (a king/queen, a prime-minister and forum ministers)
3) a Despotism (Grand Despot, Grand Master of the Court, advisors...)
4) Other

Congratulations, Maciamo!
I would vote for 4) in line with the uniqueness of JREF.
How about Anarchy as in none above any other?
But to proclaim independence, I expect some major work in the following areas.

1. We have the people, but no land or soverignty. How are we going to raise the money to buy land? If we want to take land, and to defend it, we would probably need an army of dedicated warriors. We could take in the visitors which usually outnumber citizens by 1-to-10. The ratio is ideal, actually.

2. What will be the language, should we decide upon one? Right now, it seems English is most popular, or is it Japanese?

3. What shall we call ourselves? We probably wouldn't want "Japan" in it; that will be humiliating. "Reference" sounds to generic. How about THE ANARCHY OF THE FORUM?

4. On top of these, we would need some passports, and temporary visas for the visiting mercenaries that we just took on.

5. The most difficult question is: How do we define ourselves as a nation or race? What is our common culture? What is the basis of determining citizenship and naturalization of foreign born immigrants?

6. How are we to moderate internal conflict, should one arise? With so many free-thninking individuals, we might experience some hot debates when deciding upon an issue.

These are my thoughts for today.

[Maciamo]

1. We have the people, but no land or soverignty. How are we going to raise the money to buy land? If we want to take land, and to defend it, we would probably need an army of dedicated warriors.

We are a peaceful and civilized nation and don't need an army. Let's just say that our land is the whole world, and the existing governments are our vassal states. Actually, I don't like much the present concept of nation-states, as our world is becoming increasingly open and international, as our community.

2. What will be the language, should we decide upon one? Right now, it seems English is most popular, or is it Japanese?

Well, the USA don't have an official language. The UK has 6 of them, but two are extinct (Cornish and Manx) and 3 are not much spoken (Scottish Gaelic, Welsh Gaelic and Scots). Shall we have many official languages (i.e. those of each subforum : English, Japanese, French, German, Italian) or none at all ?

3. What shall we call ourselves? We probably wouldn't want "Japan" in it; that will be humiliating. "Reference" sounds to generic. How about THE ANARCHY OF THE FORUM?

We are the Jrefians (pronounce JayRefians), and our country is JREFland.

4. On top of these, we would need some passports, and temporary visas for the visiting mercenaries that we just took on.

We already have some. We only use electronic ones. People just have to sign up and fill their profile (=ID card) to become a citizen. However, we have the right to ban misbehaving citizens from JREFLand.

5. The most difficult question is: How do we define ourselves as a nation or race? What is our common culture? What is the basis of determining citizenship and naturalization of foreign born immigrants?

Well, as far as I know, there is nobody yet born in JREFLand itslef apart from J-Bot. We do not need to define ourselves more as a race or culture than the USA or UK. Our common values are expressed in the Forum rules (JREF's Constitution and Code of Law).

6. How are we to moderate internal conflict, should one arise? With so many free-thninking individuals, we might experience some hot debates when deciding upon an issue.

We Founding Fathers (hmm...) have already elaborated a Mod Guide (see in the footer) as guidelines for the Executive and Judicial power of JREF.

[ax]

I know the mod are against nation states, but at present time, only nation states can participate in international diplomacy, or join member of world organization and so forth.

I suggest my hometown West Dutch Borneo. Indonesia is in shambles now, let us buy land like Israeli did and declare West Dutch Borneo a newborn state, just as the original name indicates. There use to be the first republic in Asia ruled by Hakka government in West Dutch Borneo, probably in current city of Sambas.
The name of this country is Republic of Lan Fang. You can google for more details.

If we can rebuilt Lanfang as a country, I want to register first. I think we won't have trouble finding investor. A lot of conglomerates and tycoon hails from West Dutch Borneo.

ax

[Japanimaniac]

We are a peaceful and civilized nation and don't need an army. Let's just say that our land is the whole world...

YAY!!! We're Canada!!! I vote 4) Other - Feudal System. Makes thinking easy. Just as long as we don't get greedy. I think we're all friendly enough to abide by that rule.

How about Anarchy as in none above any other?

Eh, good concept, but people tend to crave some sort of authority, even if they do fight against it once it's in place.

[lexico]

I know the mod are against nation states, but at present time, only nation states can participate in international diplomacy, or join member of world organization and so forth.

I suggest my hometown West Dutch Borneo. Indonesia is in shambles now, let us buy land like Israeli did and declare West Dutch Borneo a newborn state, just as the original name indicates. There use to be the first republic in Asia ruled by Hakka government in West Dutch Borneo, probably in current city of Sambas.
The name of this country is Republic of Lan Fang. You can google for more details.

If we can rebuilt Lanfang as a country, I want to register first. I think we won't have trouble finding investor. A lot of conglomerates and tycoon hails from West Dutch Borneo.

ax

Ax, I never you had such political ambition, I mean in agood way.
It looks like you've been wanting something like this all the while.
You know, I think this can lead to something substantial.
It's the dream that makes people move, and make history.
So whatever you have in mind, yeah, my ears are open!
You might even get voted in for National Treasury or in some kind of diplomatic capacity to negotiate land buy outs.....
And noticing the Hakka's experience as foreigners in the southern territories, in and ouside China, there must be a Hakka notion of treating aliens with tolerance ingrained into the culture...so I think Hakka land might be the ideal place to start something anew...

[Kama]

I like the idea of Monarchy/Despotism.

I like the idea of being King's/Despot's Jester. The First and The Only One.

[lexico]

Eh, good concept, but people tend to crave some sort of authority, even if they do fight against it once it's in place.

I wonder who does the craving; the one on top or the on on bottom? But I begin to see your point. By having a feudal system, we can constantly be at feud with one another. And yes, in so doing, we can continue the endless struggle between good and evil.

The question is, who do target as evil? Yeah, I still think it's a nice setup, as long as we can find the right people for our feudal lords and ladies!

[lexico]

We are a peaceful and civilized nation and don't need an army. Let's just say that our land is the whole world, and the existing governments are our vassal states. Actually, I don't like much the present concept of nation-states, as our world is becoming increasingly open and international, as our community.

I agree about being civilized and all, but as real people, we are attached to the land...I guess we can just stay where we are. Vassal states is a novel idea. Collecting tributes, be can be rich, rich, rich! The whole concept is so revolutionary, I think you are suggesting global insurrection on the mental level.

Well, the USA don't have an official language. The UK has 6 of them, but two are extinct (Cornish and Manx) and 3 are not much spoken (Scottish Gaelic, Welsh Gaelic and Scots). Shall we have many official languages (i.e. those of each subforum : English, Japanese, French, German, Italian) or none at all ?

I guess in a closed number system, infinity somehow returns to 0 at one point. Agreed as long as we can keep the comm. channel flowing with meanigful bits!

We are the Jrefians (pronounce JayRefians), and our country is JREFland.

Apologies; you had already mentioned that! How about spelling it Jay-Ruffians, sounds more rebellious. Maybe not.

We already have some. We only use electronic ones. People just have to sign up and fill their profile (=ID card) to become a citizen. However, we have the right to ban misbehaving citizens from JREFLand.?
Well, as far as I know, there is nobody yet born in JREFLand itslef apart from J-Bot. We do not need to define ourselves more as a race or culture than the USA or UK. Our common values are expressed in the Forum rules (JREF's Constitution and Code of Law).
We Founding Fathers (hmm...) have already elaborated a Mod Guide (see in the footer) as guidelines for the Executive and Judicial power of JREF.

All right, you win, founding father! But we still need an exodus story to pass down to posterity, and we still need independence day to celebrate, or to take a day off! And I wonder if mirroring our country is within the reacheable near future. Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response. At least I got the thread interesting again. Let's hope it stays that way.

[Japanimaniac]

I wonder who does the craving; the one on top or the on on bottom?

Hhmm...good point. It seems to be a trend that those who want power don't deserve it, and those that deserve power don't want it. Quite a paradox.

I wonder what would happen if someone who truly deserved power actually had it. Would we follow? Or would we write them off as a fraud with some alterior motive? Kind of seems the way of man to tear down authority only to let it take power once more in the futile hope that it will be better. Then repeat. If you want a corny example, think about The Architect's explanation in The Matrix Reloaded.

Wow...that got more philosophical than I meant it to be, lol.

[Maciamo]

The whole concept is so revolutionary, I think you are suggesting global insurrection on the mental level.

That's the idea.

How about spelling it Jay-Ruffians, sounds more rebellious.

Mmh, yeah... we'll have to find something else... Jay-refers ?

But we still need an exodus story to pass down to posterity, and we still need independence day to celebrate, or to take a day off!

We could take 14 March 2002 as the independence date, as it was when the forum started (although JREF started in 1999).

We could also think of a mythological origin, like Amaterasu in Japan or the Olympus in Ancient Greece. But we want to be modern and rational, so that kind of story is a bit at odd with our ideals.

And I wonder if mirroring our country is within the reacheable near future.

Do you want us (admins) to assign title of minister/secretary for each forum section and vice-minister for sub-forums ? Admins could be the presidents, prime-ministers or great leaders (or a combination of those). We could establish a tax system and official budget too. In that case tax-payers could vote for the way the budget is spend (eg. what script or site improvement to purchase, or whever th budget should finance the creation of JREF tshirts or other collectibles or not, etc.)

[Flashjeff]

I'm all for depotism! That way I can get the position of Secretary of Shojo Anime or Minister of Old School J-Pop!

[Kama]

Do you want us (admins) to assign title of minister/secretary for each forum section and vice-minister for sub-forums ? Admins could be the presidents, prime-ministers or great leaders (or a combination of those). We could establish a tax system and official budget too. In that case tax-payers could vote for the way the budget is spend (eg. what script or site improvement to purchase, or whever th budget should finance the creation of JREF tshirts or other collectibles or not, etc.)

I'll say "yes" if you'll grant me my position.

[lexico]

We could take 14 March 2002 as the independence date, as it was when the forum started (although JREF started in 1999).

Agreed. How shall we cast a national vote? A poll maybe?

We could also think of a mythological origin, like Amaterasu in Japan or the Olympus in Ancient Greece. But we want to be modern and rational, so that kind of story is a bit at odd with our ideals.

Since we have so many Janime & Jrock fans, couldn't we just ask them to write a founding mythology and a futuristic national anthem that is both original and rational, slick and chic, and then put it to the test?

Do you want us (admins) to assign title of minister/secretary for each forum section and vice-minister for sub-forums ? Admins could be the presidents, prime-ministers or great leaders (or a combination of those). We could establish a tax system and official budget too. In that case tax-payers could vote for the way the budget is spend (eg. what script or site improvement to purchase, or whever th budget should finance the creation of JREF tshirts or other collectibles or not, etc.)

Although it sounds like a soviet or a confederation of states, fabulous, basically! Anything that has substance, however small, will have a symbolic meaning for the inauguration of this JREF_Land of ours, reaching into real space from out of the blue, blue virtual! We shall redefine the meaning of reality. A t-shirt could be a good start. O, this is getting exciting. I hope you're serious, though! *the divine sign is given in a sneeze*

[Fantt]

I just got into this thread, but I want to call "NERD!" on Maciamo for having thought of such a thing... (not that I'm not a nerd or anything, but still...)

[misa.j]

I think we should all go to 'SEALAND'.

http://www.sealandgov.org/index.html

[lexico]

I think we should all go to 'SEALAND'.

http://www.sealandgov.org/index.html

At first I (thought) it was a joke. After reading the facts, it appears that the place called Sealand is a legitimate nation with at least some international recognition. I couldn't verify Sealand on my maps, but maybe it's because the fortress is so tiny. They talk about 300 some official passports having been issued, but looking at the photographs, http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.u...d/gallery.html it doesn't look like it can accomodate every passport holder at the same time at least for now. However, they could take turns, or even better, raise a high rise some time in the future to make that possible. As for accomodating 8,000+ Jrefians (Jreflanders,) I really don't know what to say. Should Sealand and Jrefland be able to negotiate some kind of merger, I would be interested to see how the eventual terms are hammered out. Yeah, that was a mind blower, Misa.J! Nice find, you deserve an award for excellent scouting service for Jrefland, I (think.)

[Maciamo]

I think we should all go to 'SEALAND'.

http://www.sealandgov.org/index.html

Very interesting indeed. The location of Sealand is ideal, between England and the Benelux, just where I come from ! I do not like very much the looks of teh fortress thogh, and I also dislike the fact that it is a principality, which makes it look less democratic. (one of the main reason for me to secede from the UK or a Benelux country is justly the monarchy thing).

Anyhow, JREFLand's population exceeds that of Sealand by 30 times and is growing much faster.

I was thinking about the passport and nationality issue, and for practical reasons, we should create a supra-nationality, like that of the EU, that does not replace the previous nationality, but comes over it and acts as a sense of unity for those citizens from various cultural and geographical backgrounds.

As any country or organization, JREFLand also needs a flag, capital (or HQ) and possibly anthem too.

The anthem does not have to be original or composed by us. The EU's national anthem is Beethoven's 9th symphony, for example. We could choose one from classical music. Beethoven was chosen for his Europeanness (his roots are in Belgium, but he was born in Germany and lived and worked mostly in Austria, while supporting the ideals of the French Revolution). As most people have only one nationality, and most classical composers are European, it may be easier to select the music based on the feelings it conveys (Beethoven's 9th symphony was chosen because it is based on Schiller's Ode to Joy that refers to the brotherhood between humans around the world).

I was thinking (without much reflection) about Dvorak's 9th symphony From the New World, which is the most international music I know in inspirations (read article in link), and is futuristic in its approach.

The current HQ of JREF(Land) is in Tokyo. Like Disneyland, it is conveniently located in relative isolation (although in the centre) by the Tokyo Bay.

I merged the EU and Japan flags below. The blue, white and red also reminds of the USA. The 2nd flag are the 12 EU stars in white and red like the flag of Japan. Why the EU in JREF ? Because we are planning to extend JREF to the Europe as well. I ma now working on EUpedia with this in mind.

[Flashjeff]

I'm down with the flag on the left, Mac! And all your ideas are quite sound! Clearly you've put a lot of thought into this, and I find it all to be very fascinating! I hope you'll have room for me in your cabinet!

[lexico]

I'm impressed by how quick you were able to come up with all these ideas.
Quite overwhelming indeed.
As for the flag, I would vote for the one on the left because of its color symbolism. The sun of course, with water all around it very closely reflects a creation myth. The twleve stars can represent the perfect astoronomical cyle, and all the peoples of the earth by extendison of it.
Great work, Maciamo!

Looking at your EUpedia site, (Contratulations btw!) I had this one question. How will the binding theme of "all things that are Japan" be modified as you expand to the new "territories?"

[Maciamo]

I'm impressed by how quick you were able to come up with all these ideas.
Quite overwhelming indeed.

hehe, I have a good imagination.

Looking at your EUpedia site, (Contratulations btw!) I had this one question. How will the binding theme of "all things that are Japan" be modified as you expand to the new "territories?"

Are you talking about the forum or the site as a whole ? I am not sure yet whether we should use this forum for EUpedia as well, or create a separate one (also for technical reasons, as it might get a bit heavy on the server). We could just create a Euro-Japanese site. I don't think we would change the atmosphere so much, as anyway the community is very international, and about 40% of the members are Americans (so for them, Europe and Japan are foreign cultures and potential travel destinations). For Europeans, it's always good to discuss the difference between themselves, as well as with Japanese, Americans, or others. We could eventaully cover the whole world, but that will take time (esp. that I am alone to write all the travel guide sections so far).

[lexico]

hehe, I have a good imagination.

So it was your imagination that brought you all the way around the globe!

Are you talking about the forum or the site as a whole ? I am not sure yet whether we should use this forum for EUpedia as well, or create a separate one (also for technical reasons, as it might get a bit heavy on the server). We could just create a Euro-Japanese site. I don't think we would change the atmosphere so much, as anyway the community is very international, and about 40% of the members are Americans (so for them, Europe and Japan are foreign cultures and potential travel destinations). For Europeans, it's always good to discuss the difference between themselves, as well as with Japanese, Americans, or others. We could eventaully cover the whole world, but that will take time (esp. that I am alone to write all the travel guide sections so far).

I've barely begun to scratch the surface of the forum, much less the JREF. The best I can say is can you tell me about the forum first, b/c that what I presume to know better. Keeping the two sites independent makes sense, to keep the traffic manageable. Will people be able to talk cross forum without switching -- a silly question. That would not make sense, would it? But if the two groups don't talk, the smelting pot effect may not be kick in. I wonder how it will turn out. I'm surprised you've done the basic work on your own. Well I must say, fine job!
Wish you smooth writing...

[RockLee]

Nice site maciamo ! if u need pics of belgium, ask ! I'm living here remember

[Maciamo]

So it was your imagination that brought you all the way around the globe!

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the flags and other JREFLand ideas.

Will people be able to talk cross forum without switching -- a silly question. That would not make sense, would it? But if the two groups don't talk, the smelting pot effect may not be kick in. I wonder how it will turn out.

I also considered this, so I think it is better to fuse both communities. Ideally, I'd like that users be able to choose to see the "new posts" either for Japan, or for Europe (or both), but Thomas has to tackle this kind of technical issues, and I am not sure whether it is possible at all or not.

What we could do is separate the picture galleries for Japan and Europe - but that requires to purchase yet another new licence...