Kaere (かえれ) means - Go Home or Get out - whatever you like.
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Kaere (かえれ) means - Go Home or Get out - whatever you like.
Discrimination can be seen everywhere in the world because people tend to be cautious against foreigners/unusual looking-people in general.
Probably USA/Europe/Australia/NZ are the countries of the most discrimination/prejudice against non-Whites. Thus they are the most sensitive about racial discrimination today.
In Japan, there must be some discrimination against foreigners - especially to the people from less developed countries. So we must be careful about ourselves.
However, what Europeans/Americans usually tell as discrimination/prejudice is not acceptable. http://www.debito.org/index.html is the typical case. This man continues to send wrong message to the world, neglecting that foreingers don't adpot Japanese manner in Japan, but forcing Japanese to adpot foreigners' manners in Japan.
Before coming to Japan, foreigners better learn Japanese customs/manner, which are often different from the rest of the world.
What wrong messages does Arudou Debito send?Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroboy
I don't necessarily agree with you about foreign manners and discrimination. Yes, many foreigners don't know about certain manners in Japan, but that doesn't mean they should face discrimination. Can you give some examples of what you mean, so I can understand you better?
Arudo Debito is like Paul Watson he does more harm than good the way he goes about.
I think Astroboy made very clear and salient points and I don't see why he needs to write it on the wall for you, so to speak. Mr. Debito does do more harm than good. Sure, some people do face discrimination in Japan, but that's the same all over the world. Mr. Debito is a very ignorant man in my opinion, and it shows in some of the places he chooses to highlight - stripper joints and seedy bars ! Like the whole world needs to condemn Japan for not allowing foreigners into brothels and sex joints ?? How can you not see the writing on the wall Glenski ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenski
I'm Puerto Rican and Black, would I be treated differently or oddly in japan by the locals? Oh, ya almost forgot, does your race play any role in getting japanese chicks ;P
Dig deeper into this thread and you will find other members' experiences (some of them are latinos/blacks).Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.M.
As for your second question, I don't know if your race plays a role but your attitude will. And that's not just in Japan.
Welcome to the Forum.
Since there have been so many negative stories, I feel like I should try to lighten the mood a little. While I was living in Nagoya, which doesn't have a tremendously large foreign population, and when I lived in Hikone (Shiga Prefecture), I typically had excellent experiences. Should I look lost or confused, people would flock to my side, whether or not they spoke English, and helped me out. I had an elderly couple walk me and my friends, none of whom spoke more than two words of Japanese at the time, all the way to the far end of a huge train station (Osaka), outside into the rain, and waited at the bus stop with us to make sure we got where we were going.
In Nagoya, I was approached by elderly men and women who simply wanted to talk to me, and several who were delighted by my Japanese. I met several nice people of all ages who would give me directions if needed, or simply talk to me should I strike up a conversation. I never even had the "gaijin perimeter" on the subway, where Japanese people are supposed to give foreigners extra berth. Nope, they squeezed right in next to me. Hahaha.
The best experiences were often in restaurants, where businessmen would pay for the meals of my friends just for having heard English. One businessman approached me in an Outback Steakhouse while I was waiting to pay, spoke to me in English for several minutes, and then handed me a thousand yen for my trouble on his way out the door.
I even had the police fall all over themselves once to help me figure out where a building was.
To be honest, the only "discrimination" I dealt with in a year and a half was a bit of staring (I might as well be from outer space, being an African American) and the assumption that I didn't speak Japanese, which was not only reasonable, but gave me a break some days when I didn't feel like practicing. XD I'm sorry that other people had awful experiences, but so far so good for me.
I am an average white guy from northern Europe. No tattoos, no long hair (not short enough to be mistaken as someone in the USA army), no police record, a full-time occupation, dont wear weird or unique clothing and etc. Yet 3 times the police have stopped me and demanded I show I.D.
The first time I was shocked and just complied. The second time I got a little pi##ed off, asked why and refused to show it. They then prattled on with some nonsense about a foreigner being reported doing something nearby (obviously if someone had just committed a crime he wouldnt have been casually strolling along a busy street as I was.), called for back-up and when another car pulled up and 2 more of the angry little pigs got out and started getting in my ear. At that time I had had enough and handed over my I.D. Both times they wrote down my details.
The third time, 2 weeks ago was the final straw. A guy I knew was in a little trouble. Very little. He was never charged, taken for interrogation of anything like that. I was there only to help translate for both parties. The guy couldnt speak any Japanese and the pigs couldnt speak any English. Suddenly, they turned around and demanded to see my I.D. After some harsh words were exchanged and i was surrounded by literally 10 of them, I again relented.
Japan is a nice and civilised place and Japanese people are generally very decent and thus, it came as a shock the pigs could do this. Well, it turns out that if you know your rights, they cant lawfully.
Some of you probably know of Arudo Debito and for those who dont, he is a white Japanese citizen, an associate professor and I guess you would say an activist for foreigners rights here in Japan. I guess he became sick of the pigs stopping him for no reason too and did some research on the topic.
Read some general info here and the specific laws here.
Now I understand why the pig came up with a childish story about a foreigner being reported doing something when I asked "why" he wanted to see my I.D. the second time.
Basically, the police cant stop you, ask for I.D. and question you unless you are under suspicion for a crime. Simply "because you are a foreigner" isnt sufficient.
Now, some people will probably interlope to this thread and say "no, Debito is wrong" and etc etc. Trust them if you like but then think about the kind of people they obviously are and the kind of person Debito obviously is and think for yourself who you would believe. Also, ask yourself why they are so desperate to make you believe they are right. Why would they care? Debito is an activist who was tired of being harassed by police because he has white skin. His motives are very clear.
One thing everyone agrees upon is that even if you are suspected of a crime you have the right to first inspect their I.D. before showing your own and if you are in a hurry this would be enough. Take time and do it as publicly as possible and the pigs little power trip will be shot down in flames. Thats what its all about. They want people to see how "powerful" and "important" they are and I guess it would be quite humiliating to have a foreigner publicly inspect their I.D.
If stopped in such a way as I outlined above, if you simply pass over your I.D. without question, in my opinion you are a pityful and docile lackey and are doing a disservice to all foreigners here.
When I traveled across Europe, I was often stopped by police, immigration officer, train master, etc. to show them my passport.Quote:
Basically, the police cant stop you, ask for I.D. and question you unless you are under suspicion for a crime. Simply "because you are a foreigner" isnt sufficient.
At the airports in Europe, EU passport holders go to different gate, while Japanese passport holders go to another gate, taking more time at passport control.
But I have never heard about any complaints from my Japanese friends because I and others believe different country has different rules. Or you believe all countries must adjust to your preference ? because you are different from any others.
I'll try not to make a direct response to the situations you experienced as I have no independent means of interpreting them myself and I have never experienced anything like it. It's not that I think you are lying or being dishonest in your accounts, it's just that eye-witness reports often glaze over certain details that could be very important or have a certain personal bias based off of emotion.
This is a pretty sweeping generalization and a weak argument. I have no idea the merits of Debito's argument concerning police stopping foreigners, but to project anyone who opposes Debito as malicious or, how you put it, "...think about the kind of people they obviously are..." is just disingenuous. How do you know what kind of people they are? How do you know what kind of person Debito is? Do you know him personally? Does the simple fact that one opposes Debito tarnish the merits of their arguments? Who says they are desperate to make us believe they are right? Maybe they just have an opinion and don't act much on it. Indeed, Debito himself is an activist who tries very hard to get people to believe he is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
To make my point clearer, let me inverse the roles of your sentence.
Now, some people will probably interlope to this thread and say "no, Debito is right" and etc etc. Trust Debito if you like but then think about the kind of person he obviously is and the kind of people Debito critics obviously are and think for yourself who you would believe. Also, ask yourself why Debito is so desperate to make you believe he is right. Why would he care?
Could you expand on this more please? That is, justify why you think that "if you simply pass over your I.D. without question,[...][You] are doing a disservice to all foreigners here."Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
Firstly, about the Debito thing, I was having this discussion on another thread and some people were absolutely desperate to say that Debito was wrong. They got quite upset and the thread was locked. You can read the laws yourself. I provided the links. I should have deleted that paragraph for this thread but I just copied and pasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-n-Half
Finally, if foreigners who know their rights still dont take at lest some of the steps I outlined it just encourages the pigs in their lawlessness, power-trips and petty racism. If every foreigner in Japan suddenly took the steps I outlined, the pigs wouldnt harrass us on the basis of our skin color anymore.
I cant say too much without knowing some more specific details but it sounds like they were also lawless pigs with the obvious exception of the immigration officer at the airport... Even the train master???? Sorry but i find it very hard to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroboy
So? Whats the point? Why tell me this? I have never complained about having to go to a different gate at immigration control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroboy
Well now we reach the crux of the situation..... Talking about rules is it too much to ask that the pigs obey the law? Furthermore, I shouldnt care about being singled out becasue I have white skin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroboy
I havent posted on this board in 2 years,but when i saw reyter's post i was disgusted.
1.the fact you call them pigs makes me think you get all haughty when you see them in the first place and that could,just maybe,be why they decide to come over and ask.attitude goes farther than you can imagine.
2.I've gotten stopped here in america plenty of times before because im young and it was late,i know the circumstances,i answer their questions and go back to my life.it's not a big deal.
3.and since you're quick to quote laws,you do know in most countries,including the great ol' U.S.A any and all immigrants/foreigners whether permanent or visiting are required to have their passport or equivalent papers on them at all times in case a police officer or authority figure wants to take a quick look to make sure you are actually there legally.
my main point,get over it and come down off that high horse,you're not being abused,you're in their country and you must abide by their laws,and i guarantee there are nuances in said laws that you don't fully comprehend.
I apologize if I sounded cross.
Firstly I dont consider USA to be great at all. According to pretty much all the data and from what I have witnessed, socially and economically Japan, Australia, Canada and most members of the EU along with Norway and Switzerland are far more advanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmwintenn
Secondly I remember a few years ago reading about how they changed to laws in USA so that the police had the right to randomly stop and ask for ID anyone within 10km of the border. I also remember watching on TV how there was a large group of obviously illigal immigrants standing around trying to get work but the police couldnt do anything becasue they didnt have the right to ask to see I.D. and those people werent breaking any laws, at least not that anyone could see. If you dont mind lawless police and wont stand up for your rights, thats your problem as far as I am concerned. Dont try to pass off your self-loathing to me.
Finally, you obviously didnt read my original message or couldnt understand it. All I ask is that police obey the law and the law states that they dont have the right to stop and ask someone to present I.D. simply because he or she has a different skin color.
Of course you are right that I shouldnt call them pigs and I am sure there are many very decent policemen and women but from my experience and from what I have heard, the organization as a whole is fascist and when I am in a good mood I refer to fascists as pigs.
Are you dumb? You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension understanding what has been written. Each of your claims were were delt with quatations from Japanese law to refute what you were saying , but you chose not to read them and keep blindly harping on the fact that you think Japanese police officers are all fascists. I will say it one more time for you, they are well within the law to ask for your ID.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
My advise to you GO HOME!
Hello friend! Did you miss me? I missed you but to tell the truth, I was kind of hoping you and the rest of that little crew who think I have nothing to be upset about would avoid replying to me here but it seems one cant escape you on this forum. Do you spead hours going through the threads or just search for any messages by me?Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedDave
Its kind of weird how you supposedly quote me but say something absolutely contrary to what I stated. Let me reiterate and hopefully you can understand. "I am sure there are many very decent policemen and women but from my experience and from what I have heard, the organization as a whole is fascist". That is it in verbatim! Just to clear up what may have been the problem, I dont consider fascsits to be "decent people".
So basically you are saying that if I get upset by racist police ignoring the law, the only option is to go home?
May I ask what color skin you have? I find it surprising that anyone would condone such behavior but astonishing that a possible victim would condone it.
Yes I did miss you, and I especially missed hearing about you hardships in Japan. I was talking to a few of those members to see if we could get a fund up and running to help you in your plight for better understanding of Japanese laws and just Japan in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
Don't give me the credit for finding you, stupid posts have a tendency to stand out.
And let me reiterate and hopefuly you can understand , the police or any other Japanese official is well within the law to ask for ID in any circumstance, suspicious or not. So the fact that they do ask for ID does not make them "racist", it does mean they are doing their job.
And from what you have "heard" and with your very "limited" experience, I really don't think it is any basis to label the entire Japanese police force "fascists". Sounds more and more like you are in fact the racist here...
And to answer your last question, all I am doing is stating the real truth about the Japanese police, instead of your misinformed , ignorant and clearly lopsided veiw on them. But unfortunately you can't talk sense to someone without common sense.
Excellent! How much have you raised so far? How am I to receive the money?Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedDave
I take it from your last paragraph that you dont have different color skin from normal Japanese people and thus, dont ahve such problems with the police as others have had. It seems to me that it makes you feel good to see us getting harrassed. Perhaps you had a bad experience in another country? If any police harrassed you because you have different color skin from the native people, I can only denounce those police as pigs! Furthermore if the law forbids the police from doing that as it does in Japan and most (or all, I dont know.) other developed coutnries, I can only say I am sorry for you and the gulag in Siberia for all fascsits no matter the race. Lets them tear into each other in the gulag so decent people can get along with trying to build a better society for all, regardless of race.
Once again, here are the secific laws, and some general info here.
Now, I believe this exchange between us us over. If there is anything else I can help you with and when you have finished your fund-raising for me, please dont hesitate to send me a private message.
BTW: I think your fund-raising efforts would be better spent if you gave them to Debito. I'm a union member and so occasionally get involved in their activities but that is pretty much the extent of my political activities in Japan. Still, if you insist it go to me, I will accept it.
At the moment we have one old Geta and a piece of chewing gum someone found on the footpath, it seems that noone thinks you were discriminated against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
I am white if it makes you feel better, and like I said earlier in the other thread I would in fact enjoy seeing you questioned by the police and you refuse to show ID, b/c then you would be detained for not co-operating.
And you clearly are lacking any sort of comprehension skills what so ever, so I will quote a paragraph from the link that you just posted that Debido himself wrote. here are the secific laws, and some general info here.
And no, they don't have to show you their ID if you do not ask for it before asking for your ID.Quote:
More at the above links, but the gist is, you had better cooperate--or face search and seizure. However, you may beforehand ask for the policeman's ID (you are legally entitled to do that), and I suggest you make a record of it. Then, if they show, you must show. Unlike citizens, Japanese police do not need probable cause or clear suspicion of a crime in order to stop foreigners and ask personal questions.
I am really hoping that our conversation is over, but it is still unlikely that you will grasp the concept that the police have every right to ask for your ID. It is not the police forces fault that the law is written as such, but they do however have a duty to follow the law.
And most sane people realise that there is not this huge conspiracy to discriminate against every foriegner that sets foot in Japan, but if you think there is then you are better off in another country.
Why apologize? Like I said before , you can't talk sense to someone without comon sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by jmwintenn
First, I think it is just hilarious that you seem to think you know Japanese law so well, but clearly cannot read Japanese well enough to have a full understanding of it. But you go get'em tiger! Be sure to carry that law around with you and show it to them... put them piggies in their place!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
Second, I think it is quite strange that you had not bothered posting on this site for almost a month, and then when I suddenly created a thread to talk about a positive experience I had with the Japanese police you magically show up again. Now I cannot be certain, but it seems to me you are so desperate to find stuff about the Japanese police to flame your blind hatred that you are actually still doing Google searches weeks later about a subject that any normal human being would have calmed down about by now. Seriously dude, it seems to me you are the one that needs to get a life.
Lastly, I could care less about what you do in this country or think about Japanese law, and it is not you I'm trying to convince of anything. I just don't want your misinformation taking a big dump all over the integrity of this forum.
God have mercy! You people are really fanatical, arent you? You just hate it so much that foreigners would have any rights in Japan, dont you? Once again, the only appropriate way to describe this is fascistic. I think you on purpose ruin this thread, the one I started on the topic and the one I originally posted on to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chidoriashi
The demographic realities dictate that one way or another, more and more foreigners are coming here. Either to work and pay tax or with assult rifles to take over (speaking within the prisim of the prevailing socio-economic order that exists in Japan and its big neighbours in China, Russia and USA.) . If you prefer the former I suggest you reconcile yourself to the fact that foreigners have rights and desist being in such a terrible state of nervous irritation when anyone is so bold as to point this out.
Insofar as the second paragraph I have no idea what you are talking about. I was interested to know about the experience and knowledge of others on the subject but had you people all over, spitting out insults and etc on threads I was posting on a month or so ago. I stopped posting and waited in the vain hope that you people would have something better to do than spend hours going through these threads and ruining them with non-stop nonsese messages.
Finally, its not my information. It is that of a Japanese citizen who has studied the subject and been so kind as to tell others. If you have a problem with this information, take it up with him. I am hardly going to believe you or any of your little gang over Debito. His motives are perfectly clear. He was extremely irritated about being harrassed by the police due to having white skin. Your motives for not wanting people to know about this are becoming increasingly clear. So in my situation (having white skin and living in Japan) who would you believe?
Now, will you '$#)'&% please desist from replying to me!!!
For anyone else, here is some general info and here are the specific laws. Laws can be vague and some people seem to think the police do have the right to stop you and ask for I.D. simply for having white skin. (I presume it is the same for others who have different color skin from the native people.) This is not really an issue. Everyone agrees that you have the right to first inspect the policemans I.D. If you do this as publicly and slowly as possible and record the details. They only want to show how "powerful" and "important" they are and doing this will only shoot down their little power-trip. Can you imagine how humiliating it must be for their petty racism to have someone of a different race publicly and slowly inspecting their I.D.?
Read your link again .Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyter
And you clearly are lacking any sort of comprehension skills what so ever, so I will quote a paragraph from the link that you just posted that Debido himself wrote. here are the secific laws, and some general info here.
And no, they don't have to show you their ID if you do not ask for it before asking for your ID.Quote:
More at the above links, but the gist is, you had better cooperate--or face search and seizure. However, you may beforehand ask for the policeman's ID (you are legally entitled to do that), and I suggest you make a record of it. Then, if they show, you must show. Unlike citizens, Japanese police do not need probable cause or clear suspicion of a crime in order to stop foreigners and ask personal questions.
This is a lot of fighting, but I'm not exactly sure why it's going on. :?
There's a difference between asking personal questions and asking for identification. The "Gaijin Card" carries a lot of personal information on it, like your address, etc. Having that information recorded down over and over again when you haven't done anything wrong would be unnerving to anyone. Would having your information taken down multiple times mean that should something in your area go wrong, you're going to be a strong suspect because you've clearly been deemed suspicious by the Japanese police? Being asked questions (where are you going, what are you doing) is moderately annoying, but not nearly as worrisome as having your personal information demanded and recorded. Heck, I was asked "personal questions" at my own school in the States, but I think it was just that officer's slightly creepy way of making small talk. :relief:
Now, if I were busy loitering around a place for a really long period of time (like maybe I completely misunderstood where I was meeting someone, knowing myself), I would consider that just suspicious enough to be politely questioned no matter what country I was in. Just walking down the street and having my ID demanded is a bit much. All that does is tell me that in that officer's eyes, I don't belong. Those Japanese laws have tried to make it so that racial profiling is not reason enough to ask for your ID, and I can agree with that. Stereotypes are common anywhere, but that shouldn't lead to harassment, and no, I'm not referring just to Japan. I personally had no trouble with the police when I lived in Japan (I'm black, so I definitely stand out), but I appreciate the fact that in some respect, at least, someone is trying to make sure that I feel comfortable there. Even if a few xenophobic people are causing distress in the foreign population.
So, like I said, I'm not sure why all this fighting is going on. I hope I'm not about to be targeted just because I posted in the middle of it. :worried:
EDIT: Rereading the law about police behavior, I just noticed that it doesn't actually say anything about showing your ID, just that they need justifiable cause to question you. I'm guessing that's where all the contention is, huh?