Education in Europe and Japan : very different problems

When I think about the problems of the education system in Europe and Japan, it strikes me that they are completely different, even opposite problems.

Nowadays, the main issues with schools in Europe is in the relation between teachers and students. There are personality and value conflicts. Some teachers are also not made to be teacher, or lack pedagogy or authority. Some students, especially in lower class milieux, skip school or cause trouble in class because they just don't care, or can't control themselves (esp. adolescents still struggling to master their hormonal impulses). But I don't think there are any serious issue regarding the qualification and actual knowledge of the teachers, nor in the curriculum itself (apart from compulsory religion classes, in Belgium at least).

The problems in Japan are not really in the teacher-student relations. This is mostly due to the Japanese culture's emphasis on harmony and avoidance of conflict. Students are much quieter than in Western countries. It is even a common sight to see many of them sleeping on their benches. But they rarely come into direct conflicts with their teacher, or cause serious troubles, and the teachers also let them sleep indiferrently. In my experience, teachers in Europe would wake up and scold anybody bold enough not to listen carefully to what they say. This attitude is more conflictual, less passive and indifferent, and is naturally in part responsible for the problems.

European teachers tend to be stricter in tests and examinations too. There is no way all the class would pass if they didn't know sufficiently their subjects. In Japan, again to avoid to break the group harmony and cause conflicts, all students pass, even if they constantly give back a blank sheet at the tests.
Japan's main problem is, I believe, in the knowledge and qualifications of its teachers. While it would be unthinkable in most/all European countries for a secondary school teacher not to have a 4 or 5-year university degree in the field they teach, it is common for Japanese secondary school teachers to teach many subjects, and some completely unrelated to their field of expertise. There are countless Japanese teachers of English who cannot even speak English, and teach mistaken grammar and a katakana pronuciation. No wonder the Japanese ranked 2nd to last after North Korea in the world's average TOIEC scores (see my replies in this thread).

Then, many Japanese teachers are visibly incapable of teaching world history or geography without including false information and mistaken stereotypes about foreign countries. No wonder if they did not graduate in history and geography, respectively. I believe it would be more beneficial for the students not to be taught English, world history or geography at all than to learn plenty of mistakes.

Even the Japanese recognise the great deficiencies of their school system, and the need for children to attend private cram schools after school, if they want to learn a bit more efficiently, or just pass university entrance exams. This also explains why Japan is the country with the most private English schools in the world, despite (or justly because of) the gross inability of most of its inhabitants to speak decent English. Look at Singapore, where most people can speak fairly good (or even excellent) English in addition to their mother-tongue (be it a Chinese dialect, Malaysian or Tamil). Look at India, where even unschooled children speak conversational English, and middle-class to upper-class people usually speak it with a vocabulary and grammar reaching near Native levels.

The Japanese education system also notoriously fails to stimualte students and give them the envy to learn and think by themselves. On the contrary, in Europe, learning by oneself (more than required by the teacher) and thinking critically and independently is highly valued.

In conclusion, while Europe's education problems are mostly in the teacher-students relations, and more a problem of pedagogy, excessive strictness and excess or lack of authority, Japan's education problems are mostly about its teachers' competencies and lack of strictness, and the general indifference of both teachers and students toward learning.

I can only speak for the UK. I worked as a school librarian in a 11-16 secondary school for 4 years.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

But I don't think there are any serious issue regarding the qualification and actual knowledge of the teachers

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Most of my teachers were well-educated, and joined the profession because of their love of knowledge and of children. Now more people are going to university. It is often difficult for graduates to find employment, but providing your degree is in a National Curriculum subject you will get accepted on a PGCE course. If you can pass it, then you are virtually guaranteed employment, since there is such a shortage of teachers. So now we have teachers who have just fallen into the profession and often are not suited for it.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

In my experience, teachers in Europe would wake up and scold anybody bold enough not to listen carefully to what they say. This attitude is more conflictual, less passive and indifferent, and is naturally in part responsible for the problems.

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I'd never really thought of it this way before. Providing a child is not disrupting the other students, why not let him sleep or stare out of the window? I think many teachers' reactions are more from pride than wanting to ensure the student learns something.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

European teachers tend to be stricter in tests and examinations too. There is no way all the class would pass if they didn't know sufficiently their subjects. In Japan, again to avoid to break the group harmony and cause conflicts, all students pass, even if they constantly give back a blank sheet at the tests.

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That sounds insane, and obviously the European system is preferrable. But I think there is too much emphasis in the UK on passing exams and preparing for work, rather than equipping students for society in a more general way. Because of league tables and PRP, teachers are too concerned with exam results. When I was at school you were given deadlines and if you missed them, tough. When I worked in a school, any pupils who missed the deadline were offered a catch-up day, where the teachers would all but do their coursework for them. The students were spoonfed so that they could pass the exams. I think students need to take some initiative themselves.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

Japan's main problem is, I believe, in the knowledge and qualifications of its teachers. While it would be unthinkable in most/all European countries for a secondary school teacher not to have a 4 or 5-year university degree in the field they teach, it is common for Japanese secondary school teachers to teach many subjects, and some completely unrelated to their field of expertise.

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This happens occasionally in the UK. I remember a situation when a Science teacher was on maternity leave, and the only supply teacher they could find was an Art teacher. So they gave him the lowest ability class, as that would not affect the test scores - these pupils were going to fail anyway, it was thought. The class reacted very badly to this - they pointed out that as the pupils most in need of help, they were most in need of a specialist. But it is a rarity in secondary schools, I think. In primary schools all subjects are taught by a class teacher who is a specialist in only one or two.

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Originally Posted by Tsuyoiko

But I think there is too much emphasis in the UK on passing exams and preparing for work, rather than equipping students for society in a more general way.

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Yes. I think it is the same all over Europe, and even more in Japan. In Japan, even university does not really make specialists, as companies recruit more by university name and fame than on the subject studied, then give a full training to their new recruits. At least, in Europe, many students will complete school with a more or less good critical sense (they won't all believe that if you buy Ariel all your clothes will be clean like never before :blush:), and quite a few will also have gained the desire to learn, for the sake of learning itself. This is something the Japanese education system even fails to give.

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This happens occasionally in the UK. I remember a situation when a Science teacher was on maternity leave, and the only supply teacher they could find was an Art teacher.

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Hmm. I thought that Belgium was already lax in this regard, as a teacher of French (or instance) can also teach history (but not geography, arts, science or mathematics). In France, even that is not allowed. If I am not mistaken, in France, a chemistry teacher cannot even teach physics or vice versa, while in Belgium a science teacher can teach any science subject (but not maths).

NB : I know about France as I have seen a French TV programme on that matters 2 days ago. :blush:

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

quite a few will also have gained the desire to learn, for the sake of learning itself.

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In my experience people like that are a small minority, but that could be because I live in a 'working class' area.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

Hmm. I thought that Belgium was already lax in this regard, as a teacher of French (or instance) can also teach history (but not geography, arts, science or mathematics). In France, even that is not allowed. If I am not mistaken, in France, a chemistry teacher cannot even teach physics or vice versa, while in Belgium a science teacher can teach any science subject (but not maths).

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AFAIK there are no regulations here about who can teach what, although the Art teacher taking Science classes is the most extreme example I have seen. He also taught IT and Maths for a couple of terms! While I was there we also had a PE teacher teaching English and Science, a Maths teacher taking IT and a French teacher who took her GCSE Spanish with the students, so that she could teach next year's GCSE Spanish classes.

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Originally Posted by Tsuyoiko

In my experience people like that are a small minority, but that could be because I live in a 'working class' area.

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Maybe a socio-economic difference, or a cultural one. (?) I know many people who would gladly stay at university all their life, as they prefer learning to working (so they clearly don't learn to get a job :p ). I discussed this with a few dozens Japanese people, but most of them just think that one must be crazy to study just for knowledge's sake, without thinking about one's job. Maybe that's because university is so expensive in Japan. :souka:

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AFAIK there are no regulations here about who can teach what, although the Art teacher taking Science classes is the most extreme example I have seen. He also taught IT and Maths for a couple of terms! While I was there we also had a PE teacher teaching English and Science, a Maths teacher taking IT and a French teacher who took her GCSE Spanish with the students, so that she could teach next year's GCSE Spanish classes.

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That surprises me. But how can they teach subjects for which they are not qualified ? Is a GCSE level enough to teach a subject ? Don't they need a university degree ? Have you had (or heard of) any foreign language teacher that visibly couldn't speak the language ?

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

Look at Singapore, where most people can speak fairly good (or even excellent) English in addition to their mother-tongue (be it a Chinese dialect, Malaysian or Tamil). Look at India, where even unschooled children speak conversational English, and middle-class to upper-class people usually speak it with a vocabulary and grammar reaching near Native levels.

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Probably not the best examples as both are commonwealth countries and had English imposed on them in the past. In India English is used as a common language because of the amount of different Indian dialects spoken in the country. Belgium, The Netherlands or Sweden might have been better examples, as the English spoken by the inhabitants is very good and they have not really been influenced by the British Empire. In fact French was very much a world language well into the 20th century. BTW do other foreign languages suffer the same problem in Japan?
If I remember correctly, when I was at school most teachers were expected to be able to teach at least two subjects, thus could 'cover' for any teachers that had days off, although one or two were one subject teachers, usually Music.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

But how can they teach subjects for which they are not qualified ? Is a GCSE level enough to teach a subject ? Don't they need a university degree ? Have you had (or heard of) any foreign language teacher that visibly couldn't speak the language ?

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They would need a university degree in a national curriculum subject and a teaching qualification. Then they would most likely teach that subject, but there is nothing stopping them teaching another. I think most schools would expect them to have at least an A level in any subject they are teaching at GCSE. The school I worked in was probably unusual.

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Originally Posted by Mycernius

Probably not the best examples as both are commonwealth countries and had English imposed on them in the past. In India English is used as a common language because of the amount of different Indian dialects spoken in the country. Belgium, The Netherlands or Sweden might have been better examples, as the English spoken by the inhabitants is very good and they have not really been influenced by the British Empire.

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But European languages being closer to English, it is also normal that other Europeans should learn English more easily than Asian people. Hence my examples within Asia. However I do not support your argument about the Commonwealth, because Japan was occupied for several years by the USA, after the independence of India, and was as much influenced by the English language than India or Singapore. One proof is that all Japanese must learn English at school (no alternative), that thousands of English words are used in everyday Japanese, that Japan has more English schools than any other country, that American/British movies are usually in English with subtitles, that NHK news and other programmes are bilingual Japanese/English, and that most public signs in big cities are bilingual (see examples).

If we had all this in Belgium, much more people would be fluent in English. In the French-speaking part, it's near impossible to get to see a movie in original non-dubbed version, either at the cinema or in video (well, now it's ok with DVD's). Public signs in English are mostly restricted to Brussels. There are no bilingual Belgian channels or newspapers (even on the Net). People don't have to learn English at school, and often choose Dutch/French first, although probably 90% do also take English.

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BTW do other foreign languages suffer the same problem in Japan?

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No other foreign language is taught in Japanese schools (except in some special private schools). So there is no comparison possible. University students usually have to take another language, but I have never met a Japanese who was able to remember more than "Hello ! How are you ?" and a few numbers after 4 years of French, German or Spanish a few hours a week at university. So it's clearly not better than English, even worse, I would say.

This is an eye opening thread... I hope you guys continue to talk about it. I have been in education here in the US for 19 years now and all we ever hear is how poorly our schools compar. Last month a contingent of educators from Japan came to Riverside to study our implementation of standards. I am always wondering what the perception and realities are.

Britain seems to be having a real discipline problem, and it seems to be fairly recent, im only 20, and i remember it not being so bad or being made out to seem so bad when i was at school.

I think, i can thank my first two primary school teachers for gving me this thirst to learn and understand i might otherwise not have.

I think the discipline problem stems from the victorian days of education, nobody should lag behind, nobody should fail, and it is a massive slight asgainst the teacher and school to allow failure, that and in modern british society of PC craze, ( i actually find non pc japan refreshing) its somwhow wrong to allow the natural course of things, and let a dumb child fail, its nice, but sometimes it might seem a waste of time and effort better spent on the rest of the class.

But what is good about britain is that at least in primary school, teachers try and ignite the flames of desire for knowledge, if you want to learn, the teacher is willing to feed you the knowledge.

What ages does primary school in Britain cover?

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Originally Posted by sabro

What ages does primary school in Britain cover?

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Ages 4-11 :-)

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Originally Posted by Tsuyoiko

Ages 4-11 :-)

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4 ? Isn't it 5 ?

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

4 ? Isn't it 5 ?

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Legally a kid has to start full time education at the start of the term following their 5th birthday. But most primary schools have a reception class, which children start in the September following their 4th birthday, before joining year 1 the following year. Some schools even have a nursery class for 3 year olds.

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Originally Posted by Tsuyoiko

Legally a kid has to start full time education at the start of the term following their 5th birthday. But most primary schools have a reception class, which children start in the September following their 4th birthday, before joining year 1 the following year. Some schools even have a nursery class for 3 year olds.

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And when does "kindergarten" start then ? Here, nursery school is before 3 years old, then it's kindergarten from 3 to 5, then primary school from 6.

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Originally Posted by Maciamo

And when does "kindergarten" start then ? Here, nursery school is before 3 years old, then it's kindergarten from 3 to 5, then primary school from 6.

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We don't really have 'kindergarten' as a separate thing. I suppose nursery class and reception class together equate with your kindergarten.

There are a few different models in the US, but the most common is Kindergarten (age 5) Elementary grades 1-5, Middle School 6-8, and High School 9-12.

In scotland, children start highschool one year earlier then english and welsh children so we may very well start primary school at 4.

Basically nursery/kindergarden is intergrated into the primary school, then you go into the primary school classes, at 11-scotland and 12-england you go straight to highschool, no junior high here, and our main exams are at 16, and after that we can choose to leave or stay on to study higher courses until were 18, most stay onto 18, then go to university/college, those that leave at 16 tend to either be drop-outs, or plan on taking a highly specialised course/study or go straight into employment, ussually a training employment.

We dont really have a graduation here, i dont even remember getting a yearbook....british folk dont seem to hold highschool days in such high regard as america and stuff, for us its just something we have to do, for example, alot of american movies are like, set in a highschool enviroment, but us brits seem happy to get through it without much hassle and forget it as soon as we can.

University seems to be what british youngsters hold in higher regard.

feild trips basically dont exist, at least from my experience, the closest thing we get is going outside the school for a biology class or something, my school does a yearly forest-hike (i remember running my last one most of the way, dunno why) but thats about it.

Most british folk are just in too much of a hurry to grow up and become independent and adult and basically anything that isnt considored childish or younger.

Apparently from what news ive heard, british parents arent allowed to take photos or videos of their kids and their class in school plays anymore (britain has a total pedo-phobia) so in short "highschool" here seems short and breif and poorly documented for memories sake, i cant even find anything remotely like a website for my school, just to find at least one photo of my class from school :/, i remember class photos for primary but after that, ziltch.


Yes i am resentful of the fact thanks to british apathy towards highschool i have no real momentos of my youth there except an old school neck-tie and doodles i drew in chemistry and graphic communication.

We have a few field trips. Mostly to college campuses.

I am a high school assistant principal- and I have taught special education, English literature and composition, Social sciences, and even marching band at high school and middle school over the last 19 years. I would say that over the last two decades, the schools, the teachers and the students have improved. Our test scores are up. Our curriculum is a bit more rigorous. And the kids we are turning out a bit more prepared. But everyone in the country continues to think our schools are lousy and that they are failing.

What I miss from the "old days" is the variety of pathways that kids could take. Today every kid is in a college prep curriculum- whether it makes sense or not. Gone are the vocational tracks- shop classes, home economics classes, vocational preparation-- and I see a great need for that today. I also miss a lot of electives. We had to close our ceramics classes to make room for remedial reading and math courses. You get elective credit for these classes as well as the exit exam prep courses. So kids take fewer non-academic electives. For the next Mozart or Picasso, school really has to suck these days.