We already have a poll Is the word "Gaijin" a racist slur?, but I would like to be more specific on what it means to each of us when we hear the word "gaijin". Please vote for all that apply. :-)
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We already have a poll Is the word "Gaijin" a racist slur?, but I would like to be more specific on what it means to each of us when we hear the word "gaijin". Please vote for all that apply. :-)
I voted "don't know" because no one ever called me gaijin.
Edit didn't realize this had turned into a poll. Yeah I can't say there is a non bias option.
I chose to abstain from the vote....no acceptable choices
It always depends....in this case, how much information they have on me, if none naturally I would attribute it entirely to appearance. But I agree there should be a less loaded, more neutral ("Could care less") option(s) on this poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
It is slightly skewed with a racist tone isn't it!
I think the admin of this site really dislikes Japanese people. It's not a very positive set of choices, is it?
I don't think there is any perfect answer to the poll because "gaijin" means different things at different times depending on the context of the conversation, the person who is speaking, and their attitude towards foreigners.
There appears to be a problem with this poll; the answers are from the speaker/user point of view. Can we really know that? Or is this a poll of how we intend it when and if we use that term?
As it stands, the question asked for the poll, does not seem to align with the answer/choices provided because they way I feel and react and concieve of any insinuatuations behind the word 'gaijin' are surely in my mind, and, for any such particular moment, are only in my mind.
Could I have a little clarification on either the answers or the question, please. :bow:
note: I posted this without reading any posts--for better or for worse.
Heh. I'm not afraid to vote or say what I take it to mean.
Mostly, when I hear "gaijin", I take it as being "You are an outsider, ignorant of Japanese ways". Saying that, I don't mean that the Japanese I know, who use that term, mean any harm by it. I don't really hold it against them.
I don't understand what the big deal is about being called "gaijin" anyway. Yeah, I think it's a little crazy to be called "gaijin" in my own country, but I just see it as how they are, so I just shrug it off. It doesn't bother me at all.
It must bother some people, though, and a lot. When I started a Yahoo group for non-Japanese women married to Japanese men, and called it "Gaijin Wives of Japanese Men", it offended someone enough to make her not want to join. She said if I didn't change the name, she wouldn't join. I thought that was a little extreme, to say the least.
I agree with Mars Man, There is no option that seems to reflect how I think about it. :sick:
What would be an acceptable choice ? I can always add new options, so just speak your mind. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I want to know how non-Japanese feel about being called "gaiijn" based on they think is intended to mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars Man
I have asked many Japanese what they meant by "gaijin" and the answer are often very different. So for this poll, choose all the meaning you have encountered. It doesn't have to be a meaning shared by all Japanese, as many have different opinions about the actual meaning or connotation of "gaijin".
I questioned them about whether they called themselves "gaijin" while abroad, but usually they don't. In fact, I remember that both times I went to China with a Japanese tour, the Japanese people in the group frequently referred to the local Chinese as "gaijin", eventhough they were the foreigners in China. That is mostly why I cannot accept the translation "foreigner" as it rather means "non-Japanese".
I also know it's not about being an ethnic Japanese, as Japanese Americans, Japanese Brazilians, etc. are almost always called "gaijin".
That's why I feel most strongly that it means "outsider to Japanese society, culture and customs" OR "physically different".
Please propose more choices based on your own reflection on the meaning of "gaijin".Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
I did not intent this poll to give a single answer. That is why it is a multiple choice. See it as a "choose all that you think may be true in at least some situation, and leave out those that never apply".Quote:
I don't think there is any perfect answer to the poll because "gaijin" means different things at different times depending on the context of the conversation, the person who is speaking, and their attitude towards foreigners.
I think you should add the option "it just means foreigner to me" :)
And what is the difference between "You are a foreigner" and "You are not a Japanese national" ? :?Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLee
How about "other: please explain" instead of "don't know"
You know there are times that I read threads like this and get the impression that people are truly misunderstanding the use of the term in most situations.
Some posters are out to make it sound like there is some huge conspiracy among the Japanese public to be racist towards all gaijin and that the use of the word perpetuates that racism.
In my experience here it all depends on the person and HOW it is used. Let's say a 6yr old kid runs up to you on the street point a finger at you and says; Ehh gaijin-da! Are you going to accuse that kid of being a racist? Come on now.
Ok another example, you are shopping in the local grocery store and an elderly obaa-chan looks at you, smiles and says; Konnichiwa gaijin-san!, Is she being racist? I think not.
Of course everyone could come up with examples to counter that and I have heard of pretty much all of them in my time here, so dont start saying what about this case or that, I used those as examples only.
There is no underlying mystery about the people or the word, there is no conspiracy about it's use as well. People from foreign countries that come here or live here in Japan have become IMO overly sensitive to it's use, because they don't like being thought of as being outsiders, which in most cases is the case.
Once the shoe is on the other foot people complain. You want to call me gaijin, fine I dont care, I will call you one back too if I see you here in Japan.
So what it isn't that big of a deal. I think that people need to get the chip off their shoulders and worry about more important things in life like whether or not Japan is going to be able to continue on to the second round in the WC and if they (surly) dont, if Zico should be fired or not. Now that is a better topic to discuss, IMO. :relief:
That is because in many of our home countries, we have been educated to be extremely sensitive to any racially/ethnically motivated labelling. When we go to college, our housing associations and student networks tell us to "celebrate diversity", and encourage us to make as many friends as we can that are of different races, creeds, and sexual orientations. We have high school classes about the Holocaust, and every single American north of the Mason-Dixon knows about how evil slavery was, and how bad Jim Crow was, and how horrible the White Man was to the Native American.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiro
Plenty of people from outside the United States will be happy to point and say, "Political correctness is a bunch of crap, you Americans are dumb!" But little do they realize that the politicians most non-Americans would prefer running the U.S. are the exact ones that have foisted P.C. upon us in the first place.
We've been taught to be sensitive to this. It's been bashed into our brains since we were children. That Japanese kid pointing and yelling "gaijin da!" would get suspended from school in the U.S., especially if he was a white kid yelling, "Look at that slant-eyed kid!"
You'd probably be amazed at how many Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese students I tutor who are very quick to claim they've been discriminated against. 9/10 of the time they think someone is discriminating against them because they are Asian or foreign, it is really simply that someone is being an *******.Quote:
So what it isn't that big of a deal. I think that people need to get the chip off their shoulders and worry about more important things in life....
I'm not sure if it is because they are in a foreign land, or if they know a little about racial difficulties in the U.S., or if they expect the same sort of treatment here that they'd give foreigners to their own lands, or if it is something else. But it definitely seems like my students are coming to the United States expecting to be discriminated against, and take even the slightest incident as a personal attack motivated by racism/ethnocentrism/xenophobia.
I realize that, yet the education system here does not emphasize these things in the way the US does. The US is a melting pot and if people were not educated about cultural and racial diversity open warfare would probably occur. I am not defending the system here, I am just pointing out that the system is different, including the language, and people here are starting to learn to be more PC but not in the same way that it is taught or preached in the US.Quote:
That is because in many of our home countries, we have been educated to be extremely sensitive to any racially/ethnically motivated labelling. When we go to college, our housing associations and student networks tell us to "celebrate diversity", and encourage us to make as many friends as we can that are of different races, creeds, and sexual orientations. We have high school classes about the Holocaust, and every single American north of the Mason-Dixon knows about how evil slavery was, and how bad Jim Crow was, and how horrible the White Man was to the Native American.
Quite possibly so, but this isnt the US and comparing things here to there is not fair either as the backgrounds and history are so different as to trying to compare them to apples and snowballs.Quote:
We've been taught to be sensitive to this. It's been bashed into our brains since we were children. That Japanese kid pointing and yelling "gaijin da!" would get suspended from school in the U.S., especially if he was a white kid yelling, "Look at that slant-eyed kid!"
Not saying that it is right yet I am not saying that it is wrong in the sense that the people are consciously discrminating against people.
No I am not surprised at all. I would however be curious to know just how many Japanese fall into that category. I am not talking about anyone other than the Japanese.Quote:
You'd probably be amazed at how many Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese students I tutor who are very quick to claim they've been discriminated against. 9/10 of the time they think someone is discriminating against them because they are Asian or foreign, it is really simply that someone is being an *******.
Once again I would be courious to know how many Japanese are included in this statement? Also would you be willing to ask them how they would feel being called "gaijin" whilst they are in the US in your classroom? I would be willing to bet that some of them would actual look at you incredulously, only because of the fact that to them the word only has the meaning of foreigner when they are talking about or discussing people that are not Japanese.Quote:
I'm not sure if it is because they are in a foreign land, or if they know a little about racial difficulties in the U.S., or if they expect the same sort of treatment here that they'd give foreigners to their own lands, or if it is something else. But it definitely seems like my students are coming to the United States expecting to be discriminated against, and take even the slightest incident as a personal attack motivated by racism/ethnocentrism/xenophobia.
I do not doubt that you have faced people like this in your classroom (?) Yet I have lived with this for over 20 years now and have come to the realization that the impact of the word gaijin only affects those that let it.
Now this is a question I have for everyone here, if the word "gaijin" holds such a negative connotation to people what word in Japanese would you want the Japanese people to use when talking about a foreigner?
Go up to that foreigner and ask him/her to fill out a detail survey on his/her nationality, race, place of birth... etc. Also ask him/her this: "how would you like me to call you so that it will make me look less racist to you?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiro
Jeez what's the big deal? It's just a different culture, get used to it.
Umm I think if you read my posts in reply to this that is just about what I have been saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by godppgo
My comment is not to you. Sorry for the confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiro
I think all too often people fail to make the very, very important distinction between being referred to as "gaijin" and being called "gaijin".
I also fail to find an appropriate answer in the poll and am abstaining from participating in it.
Good point, I also did not vote in the poll either, for the same reason as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cash
Is it just my imagination or does Maciamo seem to have a distinct dislike for Japan. I also seem to read many posts by him and started by him written with a tendency to put Japan and the Japanese people in a disparaging light.
Agree. He accuses the Japanese of ethnocentrism, while he is being so euro-centric? He has a negative bias towards Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiro
I hardly think so, but of course that's only my opinion. Maciamo shares a lot of knowledge about Japan in his posts. I don't think he gained this knowledge by studying and learning about various Japanese aspects of life because he hates the country. I think what you sense more is some bitterness as Maciamo was tired of dealing with some attitudes in Japan even after he had lived here a while and decided to return to Belgium. But if you really want to know, why don't you pm him instead of assuming a lot without reading many of his posts.
As to comparisons, it's usual in life, and most people would be hard pressed to find other developed countries that treat foreigners the way Japan does. In another forum discussing a related issue, someone brought up the example of Israel, but I personally think it's a bad comparison based on a) the relative size difference, b) origin of a country, Israel has been struggling to survive in a perpetual war zone versus Japan's past post war struggles c) Israel is in the midst of other countries trying to take over its territory, so they have a more extreme reaction to others sharing their land.
That being said, an another option for an answer would be useful, and I am curious to hear what these other meanings could be as many Japanese have shown they feel it means non-Japanese (showing shock when '"gaijin" was directed aganist them, or Japanese use it in other countries to refer to the locals, who would hardly be foreigners in their own countries).
As to it being a different culture and getting used to it, than why would the Japanese object to being treated differently if that's what is generally done in their own country? Wouldn't it be a matter of getting used to what you're dishing out in your own country to visitors and long term residents alike?
While every single American south of the Mason-Dixon reminisces about how righteous slavery was, how good Jim Crow was, and how wonderfully the White Man was to Injuns?Quote:
Originally Posted by GodEmperorLeto
I never been called gaijin by Japanese, not that I have heard of, but I expected to be called a gaijin because I am indeed a foreigner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciamo
And couldn't that be the root of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
People don't like to think of themselves as being a foreigner, particularly after living here a few years.
It almost seems like they expect everyone to know that they belong here or are long time residents.
Oddly though,non-Japanese Asians have this common perception of Japanese tend to treat " white-foreigners " well,oppose to consciously snub at yellow folks for backwardness.
Is the treatment of foreigners a matter of development? i don't see the connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijinalways
osais postedYes, I believe it is. When a developed country continues to not recognize that there are racism problems (related with nationality and appearance) in their own country and doesn't have any laws to deal with it even though they signed the UN decree agreeing to outlaw such actions, that would be a larger problem than a country struggling to raise their standard of living via modernization, where equal rights takes a back seat to being able to eat.Quote:
Is the treatment of foreigners a matter of development? i don't see the connection.
I hope you don't actually believe that....it borders on racism.Quote:
As to comparisons, it's usual in life, and most people would be hard pressed to find other developed countries that treat foreigners the way Japan does
Ask any of the "foreigners" living throughout Europe or for that matter the USA.
Ah, I have. Their answers are mixed. Many make the mistake of pulling the violence card out, which is a separate issue. More violence does not equal racism. No another pet theory is the ignorance one, which probably has a better chance of being defended. But how long can people in a supposed modernized country be ignorant about issues of racism, especially ones that travel as much as the Japanese do? Perhaps it's another '4 seasons' mystery, i.e. the mystery being how the Japanese could think that having 4 seasons is unusual or unique.
I'm not trying to compare so much as to explain why Americans (and some other Westerners) may be so overly sensitive to the term gaijin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiro
You yourself said:
Quote:
People don't like to think of themselves as being a foreigner, particularly after living here a few years.
Good point. This puts me in half a mind to do a poll at work. We have fewer Japanese than Koreans and Taiwanese, but I think the percentages work out the same. On average I get at least 1 Japanese student per session complaining they've been discriminated against out of about 5.Quote:
No I am not surprised at all. I would however be curious to know just how many Japanese fall into that category. I am not talking about anyone other than the Japanese.
That's a damn good idea! Except if I do it wrong I could get fired. The college I work at might frown heavily upon doing it.Quote:
Also would you be willing to ask them how they would feel being called "gaijin" whilst they are in the US in your classroom?
As an aside, one of my Japanese students who loves hip-hop made a pilgrimage to Harlem. He came back saying, "In Harlem, I was the gaijin!"
Ye gods, no! I honestly haven't lived down there so I simply don't know. That's why I left them out. My education was in blue states. I honestly don't know how the red states handle it. I tried to err on the side of caution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cash
Interestingly, out of 12 people who have voted at the poll so far, none have voted for "You are not a Japanese national" (on the passport), which is the only option that means "gai(koku)jin = foreigner". In other words, there is unanimity on the feeling that gaijin does not mean "foreigner", unlike what some people have been saying... (and who visibly haven't voted)
That is most like because the majority of people reading this didn't vote due to the fact that the poll questions are biased to get the answers that you want to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciamo
I strongly disagree with the options written, so to me at least your poll and the information gathered so far are invalid due to the bias against people that have no problem with the word at all.
I started a thread on this about a year and a half ago about a movement started in Japan by some foreigners to get the word gaijin off official documents and replaced with the word gaikokujin instead.
To me, the word gaijin will always mean "not Japanese", period, as 99.9% of the time that is how I felt it was used when referring to me. I never felt any racism when the word was used nor did I feel any negative connotation. Heck, I even used the word when referring to myself in conversation such as, "henna gaijin da", when someone seemed surprised at my knowledge of the language, culture or food.
So, for long term residents to feel offended by the use of the word, to me, shows that they are overly sensitive and will never understand that no matter how long you have lived there, how well you know their language or culture, you will always be gaijin, meaning not Japanese. Period.
As Hachiro pointed out, the very few of us here who have actually lived in Japan for an extended period are largely of a single mind on this: it isn't worth getting worked up over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachipro
The very large number of us here who have 1)never lived here 2)visited as tourists/students 3)cut and run after a short stay tend to clump into the "embracing victimhood" crowd.
When you view everyone with suspicion, fear arises.
I think a lot of the people here who live in japan but are non-japanese and are often offended by the term "gaijin", do so because they feel when it is used, it is being used against them as in "you are not a part of our society" or "you will always be a foreigner no matter how long you live here", or perhaps they just feel that their identity as an individual is being smothered by constantly being just grouped as another outsider or foreigner.
When you live abroad, the most important thing is your identity as an individual- in a country that you find hard getting used to, or feel unhappy about in some way or another, it does make you feel better if people give you some mutual respect for being an individual rather than making you feel like outsider all the time.
Its the kind of discomfort you might feel when you've lived your whole life in the countryside, and all of a sudden you find yourself in the hubbub of fast-paced city life. It can be the opposite as well- if you are used to having people around you 24/7 where ever you go, it can be quick a shock to live in the middle of no where, even if you've been doing it for some time, it might not be something you'll ever get used to.
First impressions of the people around you are just as important of theirs of you- if you've lived a large part of your life in japan, i suppose it could become quite disheartening or annoying if people don't give you a chance to be someone different, but just instantly group you up with the rest of the outsiders because of your appearance or family bloodlines. Like others here have said, i think most of what depends is the context the term "gaijin" or "gaikokugin" is used in though.
Personally i wouldn't care less if i went on holiday to japan and some stranger or person i didn't know well called me "gaijin" (as long as they weren't intending it to be deliberatly and obviously offensive) because i am obviously a foreigner, and outsider if you will, and i don't look japanese in the slightest.
If i was half-japanese or korean or something though, i probably would feel offended, because when it comes down to it, there really isn't any obvious difference between most koreans or half-japanese and true japanese (at least to me there isn't), so i would probably be a lot more offended because i would not really be much of a foreigner or outsider, so the person calling me gaijin would probably be raising my non-japaneseness in a more direct way rather than just making a general statement about my appearance (which i believe is the case a lot of the time with non-asian people being called gaijin).