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Maciamo
Sep 9, 2002, 15:17
Like Kjeld mention it in another thread (http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205&pagenumber=2), there has been a lot of migrations from the Asian mainland to the islands of Indonesia and Japan during the ice age. I recommend a very good book on the development and migration of human societies : Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Jared Diamond (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393317552/qid=1031547198/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-1099547-2529756?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

Indonesians, Malaysians and Philipinos actually originate from Southern China. They'd have migrated on boats via Taiwan and displace the original inhabitants that might have been related to Dravidians of Southern India. In Papua-New Guinea, the indigenous people were more numerous and well settled, so that they had to go around them and continued to Polynesia (all the pacific islands) and New Zealand. With pimitive boats, they were able to travel as far as Hawai or the Easter Islands. Linguistically, all polynesian languages, from Hawai to the Fiji and New Zealand, via the Marianias, Kiribati, Tuvalu, etc. are closely related. They are related to Indonesians languages as well. Differences between regions increase with the time they were settled, not the distance between them. So, 2 groups of islands in the pacific might be 500km away, but the inhabitants of one may only have been settled a few generations away by inhabitants of the other group.

Indonesians ?

I have noticed myself quite a few similarities between Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language. Apart from the very similar pronounciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either "anda" or "kamu" with the same meaning and wa of using as "anata" and "kimi" in Japanese. Likewise, "suki" D‚« (to like) translates "suka" in Bahasa. Such similarities are striking. In both languages you can make a plural by doubling the word, like wareware in Japanese (ware = I or you, wareware = we). Doubling of words is so common that there is a kanji that only means the word is doubled(" X") in written Japanese. However, it is more common in Bahasa nowadays where it is almost systematical. Expressions like "ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri" also exist in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...), but not in European languages. I am not a specialist of any of these languages at all. I barely know a few words in Indonesian, but it's enough to see the link with Japanese.

Japanese matsuri ressembles so much Balinese ones that one could wonder if they are actually the same country. I've seen a cremation in Bali ; they cary the dead body very much like Japanese carry a mikoshi. Balinese funerals are joyful and people swinging the "mikoshi" in the streets and making loud noise to scare the evil sprits. Basically, Bali is Hindu, but has mixed it with the original animist religion. Shinto is also an animisn, and we can see lots of other cultural similarities between non-muslim/non-christian Indonesia and non-buddhist Japan. For example, the wall and entrance around traditional houses and the style of Balinese temples and Japanese shrines. Buddhism, Islam and Christianity all arrived much later after the supposed original ancestors of the 2 archipelago split from each other, but have changed radically both societies. We have to look for the purely original culture (what might be very difficult nowadays) to find the connection existing in late prehistoric time.

Koreans ?

Japanese and Korean grammar are very similar. My Koreans acquaintances in Japan told me that some words were also almost identical, such as kazoku, sentaku or hakkiri. Both languages are classsified in the Altaic group of languages. Check this comparison of Altaic languages (http://www.concentric.net/~yoman1/home/altaic.html) together.

About half of Japanese vocabulary comes from Chinese via kanji compounds. However, it seems that there hasn't been any much direct migration from China to Japan, except a few scholars or monks. But ultimately, going back a few millenia, all East Asian are from Chinese-Mongolian origin. Linguistically and culturally, Japanese are closer to Koreans and Indonesians.

thomas
Sep 9, 2002, 16:19
Doubling of words is so common that there is a kanji that only means the word is doubled(" X") in written Japanese.

Orang orang = orang²

:)

Thanks for your excellent exposé, Maciamo!

moyashi
Sep 10, 2002, 01:51
hehe, the turtle boy story and the lost island of Atlantis finds proof in more of maciamo's posts :)

Have you found anything more about the Mongolian influence? I know that linguistically both Mongolians and Japanese share deep connections. Let alone appearance wise some are difficult to differienciate. Hmmm, WWI + WWII influences?

hua he
Apr 5, 2003, 00:39
suki in Japanese have the same meaning with suka in Malay

Well, actually the Malay term "suka" was translated directly from Hokkien dialect into Malay.

There is a group of people in Malaysia called "Baba" (also called Peranakan). They are mix-blooded descendants of Malay-Chinese (mostly Hokkien). So, Malay absorbed many Hokkien words into their language, like "pangkin" "di mana". The word "suka" in Hokkien and Malay have the same meaning.

dark_masamune
May 17, 2003, 11:02
i know from what i've studied, i believe the oldest known skeleton found in japan was believed to be at least 400,000 years old. there's a popular idea that because the japanese are much taller than their asian neighbors, there might have been some siberian influence, maybe even european at some point. correct me if im wrong, but the Ainu, being the indegnious class of japan shared alot of characteristics that weren't "typical asian." i also read in another book that some types of tools were excavated in northern honshu that didn't appear to be japanese at all, but norse. with language, the same can be considered of the entire world. it changes with times, based on legitamacy in religion, leadership, ect. not to mention being modified over such a long period of time. its my opinion that it did derive from korean and chinese influence, maybe brought with the first buddists. and eventually added on to. mexican spanish is another great example. spaniards taught the aztrecs their language for trade and missionary purpose but today its more or so a refined mexi-spainish-aztec language. adhering to their own culture and grammar.

halx
May 25, 2003, 20:42
Hello Maciamo,

probably I don't know much more about Bahasa Indonesia than you (and maybe I should better ask my Indonesian friends) but I think that doubling is not a plural in a grammtical sense but gives "enhanced" meaning to words. Word e.g. is kata but kata-kata is not just words but a sentence, orang is person but orang-orang may refer to a tribe or nation (actually orang alone already means people and I experienced Indonesians to use "people" for a single person), jalan is the street and jalan-jalan might be journey (using many roads probably) or means to take a walk (maybe also detour but I cannot remember). At least that is how I understood it.

Regard the similarity of suka and suki.: This also struck me in one of my first Japanses lessons but I think that could be pure coincidence. There was a very intersting issue of the German publication "Spektrum der Wissenschaften" dealing with the development and history of human languages. The basis of linguistic sciences is, simply put, comparison and one article warned against "obvious" analogies.

Finally you may find many Sanskrit words spread by Buddhism in Indonesian and hence may found similar words in all of south and sout-eastern Asia.

Just once again, I'm not a linguist and all I had to say might have been wrong :) but this topic has always excited me and your contribution is extremely interesting.

Tellklaus
Jun 9, 2003, 14:52
Ancient Korean word for Japanese "matsuri" was "ma'z'ri" which meant "welcome the Gods"

Hanada Tattsu
Aug 12, 2003, 17:02
Well, I think that two migrations happened in Japan. The first was by the Ainu, who arrived from Europe long before the Yayoi and Jomons from present day South Korea arrived, and drove the Ainu to Hokkaido and Okinawa, where they still reside today.

Maciamo
Aug 12, 2003, 22:03
Originally posted by Hanada Tattsu
Well, I think that two migrations happened in Japan. The first was by the Ainu, who arrived from Europe long before the Yayoi and Jomons from present day South Korea arrived, and drove the Ainu to Hokkaido and Okinawa, where they still reside today.

What do you mean from Europe ?

Ainu where from North East Asia (Siberia ?), weren't they ?

I've never heard of Ainu living in Okinawa and those in Hokkaido (less than 1% of all people in Hokkaido) have all mixed blood with Japanese nowadays

Hanada Tattsu
Aug 13, 2003, 12:36
No, I read that the Ainu were from Europe, not Western Europe, like England and France, but more of East Europe, like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. That's what I read.

And as for the Okinawa thing, when the Yayoi and Jomon migrated to Japan, they pushed the Ainu from the main islands, they pushed them down to Okinawa Island, and up to Hokkaido.

Maciamo
Aug 13, 2003, 20:14
From what I read, the only Ainu still living in Japan are restricted to Hokkaido. They used to occupy all the north of Japan (Tohoku) till a few centuries ago, then were pushed to Hokkaido (but maybe in the Edo period, not Jomon or Yayoi). People from Okinawa don't look Ainu at all. Their language is related to some native languages of Taiwan (i.e. not Mandarin Chinese), not to the Ainu language, nor Japanese. Besides, it would suprise me that Ainu would have ventured at sea to reach small islands hundreds of km off the coast of Kyushu which they might not have known of. From what I've read, Japanese already lived in Western Japan in Jomon and Ainu in the North-East. Not sure when Japanese arrived in Japan (and from where ? probably Korea, but they also seem to be related to Indonesians ?).

miyuki
Aug 16, 2003, 16:11
We have mainly 4 theories about Jomon Jin and Yayoi jin.
Recentry many people support (4).(Some deny (4).)

(1)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were thrown out of Japan by Yayoi jin.
(2)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were mixed with Yayoi Jin.
(3)Native Japanese gradually changed their physical features.
And they became Yayoi Jin.
(4)There lived Native Japanese.They were called Jomon Jin who had physical features from south ward.In Yayoi period,people who had physical features from nothern ward (Yayoi Jin) came to nothern Kyusyu from Eurasia.They went down to Kyusyu and up to Honsyu.Jomon Jin moved to Okinawa and Hokkaido.

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

I got these informations from some books.
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
Interesting!
:blush:

Maciamo
Aug 16, 2003, 21:00
I don't think Japanese are closer to Amerindians or Inuits than from Korean and Chinese (and even South-East Asian). Physically they are much closer to Korean and Chinese. SE Asian have darker skin and can be divided in subgroups. Cambodian have very dark skin, but not Vietnamese. Real Thai have brown skin, but many are white because of Chinese imigration (especiallu\y in Bangkok).

I read that Indonesians, Malays, Philipinos and Polynesians were all originally from South China and then migrated by boat.

Japanese can't be from the same Northern Mongoloid group as Ameridians because Ameridians went to America about 10.000 years ago, while even Han Chinese only invaded China from Mongolia only about 3000 years ago. Then, there were no other way than crossing from Korea before the first civilizations (2000BC in China) and the development of proper boats/ships.

Have a look at American Indians from Inuits to Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, Aztecs, Caribi, Tupi and Quechuas. Eventhough they were the same original group of migrants and it took no longer than 1000 years for them to spread from Canada to Chile/Argentina, they now look very different physically, but all have darker skin. If any of those people had lived in Jomon in Japan, they are probably extinct and surely haven't mixed with further migrants from Korea and China who are present day Japanese.

The ear wax thing is certainly just a matter of climate (even if its in the genes, it could change after a a only few hundred years, like physical features).

miyuki
Aug 17, 2003, 01:36
It is true that Japaneses are genetically close to Chineses and Koreans.

The ape-man from Africa reached Eurasia 1,000,000 years ago.
They reached China at least 400,000 or 500,000 years ago.
They already had Mongorian's features.
It is thought that some reached Japan.
(Other assertion: They went to south-east Asia.
They were ancestors of all Asians.
Some of them went to China,southern China to Japan.)
They were "old" Mongoroid (Jomon Jin) and had southern features.

Jomon Jin's gene were fit with people near Lake Bikal.
So some assert that "old" Mongoroid devided into three groups(Siberia,China,south-east Asia) from here.

Some "old" Mongoroid went to China(around Beijin) and Japan.
Others went to south-east Asia.

Others went to northern part of China,Siberia and crossed Bering sea to America.
Then they gradually got other features to live in cold regions.
They were "new" Mongoroid.
"New" Mongoroid in China or korea went to Japan in Yayoi period.
Thus, bodily features of Jomon jin and Yayoi jin were different.
It is said that Ainu and Okinawa people have Jomon jin's features.

Chinese,Koreans,South-east Asiens,Japanese,Native Americans and Inuits are genetically all Mongoroid.

In Kofun period(3rd-6th century), many people with skills were from China and Korea.We call them "Torai jin." They also lived in Japan.

Maciamo
Aug 17, 2003, 14:36
I've also noticed that some Japanese (out of 1000 maybe) had darker skin, almost like Indonesians (but they were pure Japanese, I am sure). Could they be descendant from the Jomon-jin who mixed with Yayoi-jin in Honshu, Kyushuu and Shikoku ?

What about Burakumin ? Do they have particular physical features ? How did people recognise them ?

In Edo-jidai, the Japanese class system was very similar to the Indian Caste system. In either country, there were 4 fixed classes (people cannot change class) + outclassed : the "Untouchables" in India and the "Burakumin" in Japan. Both were given dirty jobs and only them were allowed to kill animals and make leather.

In India, the caste system was established by (white) Aryan invaders around 2000BC to sepate dark-skinned native Dravidians and the new white-skinned ruling class (2 higher castes of priest and warriors). Obviously there has been some mixed blood since then, but generally upper-caste have fairer skin (sometimes blue-grey eyes) and lower castes and especially untouchables are darker.

Could the same have happen in Japan with Jomon-jin ? Are they the burakumin ? Do burakumin have darker skin ?

jspecdan
Aug 17, 2003, 16:27
This whole thing would explain why when I hear Korean I'm thinking that I'm hearing a totally different Japanese dialect. Korean sounds very similar to Japanese.

Maciamo
Aug 17, 2003, 17:29
Korean is 70% similar to Japanese. The grammar and word order is almost the same.

I don't speak Korean myself, but I've lots of Korean friends in Japan, some of whom speak very well Japanese and English as well, so they explained to me how similiar Korean and Japanese are.

As there are so many dialect of Japanese and that a Aomori-ben speaker wouldn't understand a Kagoshima-ben speaker, I guess some of Western Japan's dialect must be even closer to Korean. Unfortunately, I don't know anyobody who speaks Western Japanese dialects (such as Northern Kyushuu) and Korean. Any Japano-Korean linguists here ?

neko_girl22
Aug 17, 2003, 18:24
I can hardly speak "standard" Japanese let alone the kagoshima dialect here. Picking up a few words though like "kingo-kingo" and "tege-tege"..... it's fun :)
but confusing as I also know some kansai-ben (hubby is from Kobe originally)

miyuki
Aug 17, 2003, 22:01
(answer to post #15)

Burakumin is not a proper name to describe some nations nor some class.
I recognize it a kind of antiwords like an eskimo.
We learn about status distinctions like this.
(you may be boring.sorry...)

In Yayoi period, there were many small countries.
Each counties have rulers and slaves.

I am not sure where such ancient slaves came.
Jomon jin gradually moved toward the north and south.
As there were battles between each Yayoi jin's countries,they might be defeated people,I guess.

In Kamakura or Muromachi period,there were some people thought to be a lower class.
It mainly depended on their occupation.
They were gardeners or singers or performers who walked around village to village etc,.
Some of them made gardens of Ginkaku or Ryoan ji in Kyoto.
They had no houses or they lived by the side of rivers.
Because such non-productive places were free of duty.
As for them,if they wanted or if they could have a chance,they could change their occupation freely.

At Toyotomi Hideyoshi's age (Azuchi Momoyama period), he devided farmers and bushi by laws.By his laws,farmers couldn't be allowed to have any weapons or couldn't move their inhabited areas.

In Edo period, Bakufu succeded Hideyoshi's policy.
They fixed people's class by their occupation or inhabited areas.
They were bushi,farmer,craftman and merchants.
All of them were organized strictly.
They made farmer of low positions.
(They were origins of burakumin,you said.)
It is said that they had to make such positions so that they might not band together against bushi.
At that age, 85% of the populations were farmers. 7% were bushi.

<my opinion>
People had descriminated against some occupations or inhabited areas through such history.
But they could change their occupations or inhabited areas freely until Hideyoshi's age.
Edo bakufu used people's such consciousness in their system.
In fact,they tightened up their laws against farmers of law positions in times of dearth.
Your word "burakumin" may be after Meiji period,after the law on 1871 that made people free from class discrimination of Edo.
Government announced so,but it was not easy to change people's mind immediately.
As for us,educated people never use the word (I believe).

miyuki
Aug 17, 2003, 22:17
Maciamo san asked me about color of skin.....
sorry my answer is far from your question..............................

miyuki
Aug 17, 2003, 22:20
but I coudn't let your word pass.............................................. ................

miyuki
Aug 17, 2003, 22:23
please start your topic 'what's the orgin of japanese people' again............................................. .................................................. ...

Gaki
Aug 18, 2003, 21:27
It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.

BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.

A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ when he was in his search for the magical herb of immortality, sent thousands of people to the east for the "mushroom islands".
But of course we know these thing doesnt exist, and since they couldnt find and going back to China would only mean death (for not finding it, is an offence to the emperor). So these people who travelled to the east, found the island of Japan and settled there.

LOL ~ just re~read what i wrote and i sound like such a story-teller ^^;

Also you can see with facial looks there are many similarities between the two.

Maciamo
Aug 18, 2003, 23:03
The encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=18376&tocid=0&query=burakumin&ct=) has this explanation on the Burakumin. The term itself is apparently neutral ("hamlet peolpe") :

also called Eta (gpollution abundanth), outcaste, or guntouchable,h Japanese minority, occupying the lowest level of the traditional Japanese social system. The Japanese term eta is highly pejorative, but prejudice has tended even to tarnish the otherwise neutral term burakumin itself.

Unfortunately I haven't suscribed to this site, so I can't get the rest of the article. If someone has, or has a paper or CD-Rom version, could they give us more info.

miyuki
Aug 19, 2003, 00:47
I looled up my dictionaries.
Kojien and Super nihongo daijiten(CD-ROM) explain Buraku shortly.
But both don't have the word "Burakumin."
Others explain Buraku = villages.

Kojien (Iwanami)
Kokugo Jiten (Kadokawa)
Kanwa Tyu Jiten (Kadokawa)
Shin Kokugo Reikai Jiten (Syogakukan)
Shinsyu Kokugo Kanwa Jiten (Syueisya)
Super nihongo daijiten CD-ROM (Gakkenn)

miyuki
Aug 19, 2003, 04:23
I found the word in "Suiheisya sengen(1922)," which was the declaration that they demanded the degnity of human beings.
They called themselves so with pain and pride.

-Z3oM-
Sep 8, 2003, 00:25
japan ppl originated frm korea...www.uglychinese.org has the info

sonatinefan
Aug 27, 2004, 07:45
Hello,

Linguistically I read that Japanese is primarily Altaic, but with a significant Austronesian substructure. Perhaps this supports the theory that there were different factors-One from Southeast Asia, and another from Northeast Asia, and the Ainu.
I have also read a theory that the Altaic component of Japanese may be related to the language spoken in Archaic Koguryo, a kingdom located in Korea and Manchuria attested in 30 BCE.

Uncle Frank
Aug 27, 2004, 09:46
you turn them upside down, it says on their feet : "MADE IN JAPAN".

Frank

:? :blush:

Martialartsnovice
Oct 24, 2004, 05:34
Excuse Me, Maciamo

I like you are right when you sadi that the Ainu gene/bloodlines would have come from Lake Bakal in Siberia. But What led to the migration as you said was the ice age and land bridges. It was the case also for the Native American Indian Tribes, with their migration, they did it to follow their food supplies, afterwards the bridges were deestroyed by the glacial recession. It could have been the cases with the Ainu, they must have followed their food animals down the continent to the Isalnds of present day Japan (Nihon). As for the darker gene coloration, it could have been a migratory wave as noted in earlier postings, or it could have been a physical adaption to life on an Island. The Native Americans have beeen gene-mapped to their origins for common ancestory, and European and American scientists and genetists have found that most current Asian peoples and Native American Indian tribes share the same ancestoral beginings. But as for the ear wax idea, it is a physicla change to suit the enviroment of the persons surroundings.

ToMach
Nov 5, 2004, 01:27
Linguistically I read that Japanese is primarily Altaic, but with a significant Austronesian substructure. Perhaps this supports the theory that there were different factors-One from Southeast Asia, and another from Northeast Asia, and the Ainu.
I have also read a theory that the Altaic component of Japanese may be related to the language spoken in Archaic Koguryo, a kingdom located in Korea and Manchuria attested in 30 BCE.
Japanese has in deed some caracteristics that make it close to the Altaic languages (Turkic, Mongolian, Manchu-Tungusic, Korean), but the Altaic languages don't constitue a genetic language family, as Indo-European for example. Their similarities come from cohabitation and borrowing. It is thus not surprising that Japanese would share some of those similarities if it comes from NE Asia.
The evidence for a link with Austronesian is rather thin.
About Koguryo, the places name of this kingdom look similar to Japanese, but we don't know if it reflects the language of Koguryo neither what this language really was.


I have noticed myself quite a few similarities between Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language. Apart from the very similar pronounciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either "anda" or "kamu" with the same meaning and wa of using as "anata" and "kimi" in Japanese. Likewise, "suki" D‚« (to like) translates "suka" in Bahasa. Such similarities are striking. In both languages you can make a plural by doubling the word, like wareware in Japanese (ware = I or you, wareware = we). Doubling of words is so common that there is a kanji that only means the word is doubled(" X") in written Japanese. However, it is more common in Bahasa nowadays where it is almost systematical. Expressions like "ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri" also exist in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...), but not in European languages. I am not a specialist of any of these languages at all. I barely know a few words in Indonesian, but it's enough to see the link with Japanese.
Sorry to say that, but for me it is far away from enough to see a link with those 2 languages. You cannot establish a relationship with typological similarities (pronunciation, word order, grammatical constructions, etc) or with one or two words that look like (anata for "you" is quite recent in Japanese, and kimi means "lord" at first). The methodology of historical linguistics is far more exigeant.


Japanese and Korean grammar are very similar. My Koreans acquaintances in Japan told me that some words were also almost identical, such as kazoku, sentaku or hakkiri.
Those words are identical because they are borrowings of the same word in Chinese (not hakkiri)


I read that the Ainu were from Europe, not Western Europe, like England and France, but more of East Europe, like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
No the Aynu are definitely Asians, and more precisely mongoloids (not mongolians!). It is clear from biologic studies.


People from Okinawa don't look Ainu at all. Their language is related to some native languages of Taiwan (i.e. not Mandarin Chinese), not to the Ainu language, nor Japanese
Sorry, but this is entirely wrong. People from Okinawa and other Ryukyu islands are closer to Jomon people and to Aynu than Mainland Japanese. And they speak what we call "Ryukyuan", a sister language of Japanese, not related to the languages of Taiwan.


I don't think Japanese are closer to Amerindians or Inuits than from Korean and Chinese (and even South-East Asian). Physically they are much closer to Korean and Chinese. SE Asian have darker skin and can be divided in subgroups. Cambodian have very dark skin, but not Vietnamese. Real Thai have brown skin, but many are white because of Chinese imigration (especiallu\y in Bangkok).
You can't make conclusions from such basic observations. You have to look at the squeletons, blood, DNA, etc.


Japanese can't be from the same Northern Mongoloid group as Ameridians because Ameridians went to America about 10.000 years ago
They can, we can suppose that the Ameridians separated form the group very early (thus their great differences) and migraed, while the other stayed and evolved into what would become Chinese, Japanese and other NE Asian people


I guess some of Western Japan's dialect must be even closer to Korean. Unfortunately, I don't know anyobody who speaks Western Japanese dialects (such as Northern Kyushuu) and Korean. Any Japano-Korean linguists here ?
No, Western dialects are not closer to Korean.


Ancient Korean word for Japanese "matsuri" was "ma'z'ri" which meant "welcome the Gods"
Sorry to tell you that this is a lie. Now, if you have any concrete evidence, I would be glad to see it

bossel
Nov 5, 2004, 09:27
Sorry, but this is entirely wrong. People from Okinawa and other Ryukyu islands are closer to Jomon people and to Aynu than Mainland Japanese. And they speak what we call "Ryukyuan", a sister language of Japanese, not related to the languages of Taiwan.
Not quite so, I think. At least according to this
study: (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10380372&dopt=Abstract)

"In the principal components analysis 3 Japanese populations (Ryukyuans, Hondo Japanese, and Ainu) formed a cluster and showed the highest affinity to 2 Korean populations. In the phylogenetic tree Ryukyuans and Ainu were neighbors, but the genetic distance between them was larger than the distances between Ryukyuans and Hondo Japanese and between Ryukyuans and Korean populations."

canadian_kor
Nov 5, 2004, 10:21
ToMach, are you familiar with the horse-rider theory about the origins of Japanese? (That the ancestors of the Yayoi were horse-riders from Siberia that passed through Korea and conquered the Jomon natives.)

ToMach
Nov 5, 2004, 10:48
Not quite so, I think. At least according to this What I meant is that all Japanese and Aynu are a mixture of Jomon and Yayoi, and the Jomon element is the strongest in Aynu first, Ryukyuans second, and Mainland Japanese last. So, while they remain close to the Mainland Japanese, Ryukyuan people have also a quite strong affinity with Aynu


ToMach, are you familiar with the horse-rider theory about the origins of Japanese? (That the ancestors of the Yayoi were horse-riders from Siberia that passed through Korea and conquered the Jomon natives.)
I think you make a mistake here : the Horserider theory, first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. Thus they conquered not the Jomon but the Yayoi people, and are not the ancestors of modern Japanese.
But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.

Martialartsnovice
Nov 5, 2004, 12:13
Konnichiwa ToMach-san,

I see that you are deeply interested in the genetic/linguistical background of modern japanese people. I have also heard of the horserifer theory, and have drawn similar conclusions as to your findings. I have also noticed the skin pigmentation differences in the SE Vs NE Asian peoples. It could be as you mentioned about the Riders conquering the Yaori, but I have heard of Early Russian/Scandinavian migrations to the Siberian plains and the Eastern Asian areas via inland Rivers and sea voyages crossing the southern tip of Africa, and of certain Arabic passages through the Caucuss Mountains. It could have been as I mentioned earlier about Siberian connection. THe Siberia theory as I have heard it called seems to me the most logicla, Because One could ride the Danube down to the Russian border, then travel to the Volga, then travel across land to the Amur river in northern Mongolia/Southern Russia. Then from there it would have been a matter of time before people would have sailed for the Japanese island of Hokkaido or even the others.

But this is just theories that I heard or read, in my world studies I especially have concentrated on the Asian histories, especially dealing with the pre Euorpean contaact and the silk road era in China. Europeans owe the Asian and Middle Eastern scientists for there discoveries. Granted that Europe would have discovered them latter on there own. But it could have taken decades longer then it took there Asian counterparts. Yes the Greeks and the Romans did give us the road, arch, geometry, government, and other things but they didnt create the first ironclad warships, or discover fireworks, or coal, or paper money. For all this I am gratefull.

ToMach
Nov 5, 2004, 12:43
I have also noticed the skin pigmentation differences in the SE Vs NE Asian peoples.
I don't think that skin color is a reliable evidence, but yes there is a clive between NE Asia mongoloids and SE Asia ones.


It could be as you mentioned about the Riders conquering the Yaori, but I have heard of Early Russian/Scandinavian migrations to the Siberian plains and the Eastern Asian areas via inland Rivers and sea voyages crossing the southern tip of Africa, and of certain Arabic passages through the Caucuss Mountains. It could have been as I mentioned earlier about Siberian connection.THe Siberia theory as I have heard it called seems to me the most logicla, Because One could ride the Danube down to the Russian border, then travel to the Volga, then travel across land to the Amur river in northern Mongolia/Southern Russia. Then from there it would have been a matter of time before people would have sailed for the Japanese island of Hokkaido or even the others.
But we find no archeological or biological trace of a European migration to Eastern Asia nor Japan in prehistoric times.

canadian_kor
Nov 5, 2004, 14:10
I posted this link on another thread. I think this is the best info on the origins of the Japanese online: http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/paekch_e.html


I think you make a mistake here : the Horserider theory, first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. Thus they conquered not the Jomon but the Yayoi people, and are not the ancestors of modern Japanese.
But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.

So, what is your theory? Who do you believe the Yayoi were? Were they Tungusic peoples who entered the Japanese islands via Korea or another group that came from South East Asia/Polynesia? Personally, I believe that the Yayoi were a people who had two genetic roots: Tungusic and Mon-Khmer.

ToMach
Nov 5, 2004, 14:49
I posted this link on another thread. I think this is the best info on the origins of the Japanese online: http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/paekch_e.html.
As I said on the other thread :
I read the book some time ago, but it has two major flaws :
1. It relies too heavily on the horserider theory, which is rejected by most of the archeologists
2. It has too much Korean nationalistic points of view on the ancient history of Korea and Japan.


So, what is your theory? Who do you believe the Yayoi were? Were they Tungusic peoples who entered the Japanese islands via Korea or another group that came from South East Asia/Polynesia? Personally, I believe that the Yayoi were a people who had two genetic roots: Tungusic and Mon-Khmer
I am not an anthropologist neither an archeologist, so I don't have my own theory, but the consensus is that Jomon people (not a single homogeneous people, possibly different austronesian and/or austroasiatic people) arrived very early from South East Asia. Then arrived the Yayoi Korean-like people from the North East (but we don't know their first homeland), and they mixed more or less with Jomon people. The isolated Ryukyuan people got less mixed than the mainland and remained closer to Jomon, and Aynu are descendants of one of the Jomon people who remained very little mixed. This is what is called the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, and is accepted by most of the scholars and scientists in and out Japan.
For Mon-Khmer, what makes you believe that? By the way, at those time, I'm not sure we should speak of Mon-Khmer people, I prefer the broader term "austroasiatic".

canadian_kor
Nov 5, 2004, 14:59
As I said on the other thread :
I read the book some time ago, but it has two major flaws :
1. It relies too heavily on the horserider theory, which is rejected by most of the archeologists
2. It has too much Korean nationalistic points of view on the ancient history of Korea and Japan.


I am not an anthropologist neither an archeologist, so I don't have my own theory, but the consensus is that Jomon people (not a single homogeneous people, possibly different austronesian and/or austroasiatic people) arrived very early from South East Asia. Then arrived the Yayoi Korean-like people from the North East (but we don't know their first homeland), and they mixed more or less with Jomon people. The isolated Ryukyuan people got less mixed than the mainland and remained closer to Jomon, and Aynu are descendants of one of the Jomon people who remained very little mixed. This is what is called the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, and is accepted by most of the scholars and scientists in and out Japan.
For Mon-Khmer, what makes you believe that? By the way, at those time, I'm not sure we should speak of Mon-Khmer people, I prefer the broader term "austroasiatic".

I read somewhere that the modern Japanese has Mon genetic roots from South East Asia (possibly from the Vietnam-Cambodian region). National Geographic Japan once had an issue dealing with the Mon peoples in South East Asia and how similar many of them look to many modern Japanese.

Martialartsnovice
Nov 6, 2004, 02:37
:-)But the early migrations of the Scandinavians, That I spoke of, happened in the formation of the germanic tribes. Such as the Goths, Huns, and other such tribes. In one respect the skin color couldnt be used, as a link, due to varying exposures to sun.

ToMach
Nov 6, 2004, 21:45
I read somewhere that the modern Japanese has Mon genetic roots from South East Asia (possibly from the Vietnam-Cambodian region). National Geographic Japan once had an issue dealing with the Mon peoples in South East Asia and how similar many of them look to many modern Japanese.
This may indeed be possible. There are traces of migrations to Japan from Southern East Asia, but the details are not clear, and I don't think that the fact that those people "look similar" to Japanese is a sufficient proof.


:-)But the early migrations of the Scandinavians, That I spoke of, happened in the formation of the germanic tribes. Such as the Goths, Huns, and other such tribes. In one respect the skin color couldnt be used, as a link, due to varying exposures to sun.
There were maybe migrations of Scandinavian people to Germany, I don't know, but aside from the Mongoloids, there was no other massive migration to ancient Japan. And you shouldn't put the Huns along with the Goths as a Germanic tribe.

ToMach
Nov 12, 2004, 21:40
For people interested in the problem of the origins of the Japanese people, one of the best book is :
Hudson, Mark J. 1999 Ruins of Identity : Ethnogenesis in the Japanese Islands, University of Hawai'i Press
It is a critical synthesis of many studies : anthropology (genetics, virology, skeletons, dentology), archaeology and linguistics. It is not only about Japanese, but also Ryukyuans and Aynu.

Wang
Nov 12, 2004, 22:46
I am not an anthropologist neither an archeologist, so I don't have my own theory, but the consensus is that Jomon people (not a single homogeneous people, possibly different austronesian and/or austroasiatic people) arrived very early from South East Asia. Then arrived the Yayoi Korean-like people from the North East (but we don't know their first homeland), and they mixed more or less with Jomon people. The isolated Ryukyuan people got less mixed than the mainland and remained closer to Jomon, and Aynu are descendants of one of the Jomon people who remained very little mixed. This is what is called the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, and is accepted by most of the scholars and scientists in and out Japan.

I also think this is the most likely theory of the origins of the Japanese.

Now the question is where did the Yayoi come from? The following article was posted a while ago on this forum has found evidence that supports the theory that the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze.

"People who introduced irrigation techniques to the Japanese archipelago in the Yayoi Period (250 B.C.-300) were believed to have come to Japan either from the Korean Peninsula across the Tsushima Strait, or from northern China across the Yellow Sea.
The latest findings, however, bolster another theory suggesting the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze, which is believed to be the birthplace of irrigated rice cultivation.
Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, said the researchers compared Yayoi remains found in Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han (202 B.C.-8) in Jiangsu in a three-year project begun in 1996.
The researchers found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.
Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jomon Period.
But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said."

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news111.htm

canadian_kor
Nov 13, 2004, 06:47
For people interested in the problem of the origins of the Japanese people, one of the best book is :
Hudson, Mark J. 1999 Ruins of Identity : Ethnogenesis in the Japanese Islands, University of Hawai'i Press
It is a critical synthesis of many studies : anthropology (genetics, virology, skeletons, dentology), archaeology and linguistics. It is not only about Japanese, but also Ryukyuans and Aynu.

ToMach, can you give us a brief synopsis of the book?


I also think this is the most likely theory of the origins of the Japanese.

Now the question is where did the Yayoi come from? The following article was posted a while ago on this forum has found evidence that supports the theory that the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze.

"People who introduced irrigation techniques to the Japanese archipelago in the Yayoi Period (250 B.C.-300) were believed to have come to Japan either from the Korean Peninsula across the Tsushima Strait, or from northern China across the Yellow Sea.
The latest findings, however, bolster another theory suggesting the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze, which is believed to be the birthplace of irrigated rice cultivation.
Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, said the researchers compared Yayoi remains found in Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han (202 B.C.-8) in Jiangsu in a three-year project begun in 1996.
The researchers found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.
Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jomon Period.
But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said."

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news111.htm

Sorry to burst your bubble Wang, but the Yayoi did not come from eastern China. Scholarship generally agrees that the Yayoi were generally of the Siberian-Tungusic stock (with some mixing with the "original" Koreans) that entered Japan via Korea. That article is flawed, I believe.

Btw, I also read somewhere that the Ainu were not a proto-Caucasoid race, but Austronesian Negroids (like the Australian aborigines). I found this interesting, since some Ainus do have Australian aboriginal facial traits (however, many modern Ainus look virtually mongoloid with some caucasoid traits).

[To anyone reading] Another thing, why are many Japanese so adverse to the idea that their ancestors came from nomadic tribes from Siberia? I found this curious. It's like many of them (even some scholars) like to move away from the idea that Japan had any sort of connections with Siberia.

Wang
Nov 13, 2004, 07:13
Sorry to burst your bubble Wang, but the Yayoi did not come from eastern China. Scholarship generally agrees that the Yayoi were generally of the Siberian-Tungusic stock (with some mixing with the "original" Koreans) that entered Japan via Korea. That article is flawed, I believe.

Why is this article flawed? What counter evidence do you have?

ToMach
Nov 13, 2004, 08:47
ToMach, can you give us a brief synopsis of the book?
It supports the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, with Modern Japanese coming from a mixture of Jomon people from South Asia with Yayoi people from the Korean peninsula


Sorry to burst your bubble Wang, but the Yayoi did not come from eastern China. Scholarship generally agrees that the Yayoi were generally of the Siberian-Tungusic stock (with some mixing with the "original" Koreans) that entered Japan via Korea. That article is flawed, I believe.
Siberian? I don't think so. For Yayoi, we know that they came from the Korean peninsula, but maybe that before that they were in the Yangtze area, this is a possibility.


Btw, I also read somewhere that the Ainu were not a proto-Caucasoid race, but Austronesian Negroids (like the Australian aborigines). I found this interesting, since some Ainus do have Australian aboriginal facial traits (however, many modern Ainus look virtually mongoloid with some caucasoid traits).
Aynu are definitely NOT Caucasians. They are proto-Mongoloids, but not Negroids


[To anyone reading] Another thing, why are many Japanese so adverse to the idea that their ancestors came from nomadic tribes from Siberia? I found this curious. It's like many of them (even some scholars) like to move away from the idea that Japan had any sort of connections with Siberia.
From Siberia, I don't think so, so let's say "from the continent". And if the Japanese come from mainly Yayoi agricultors, they can not be nomadic tribes. But I don't think they are reticent to the idea of a migration from the continent.

canadian_kor
Nov 13, 2004, 13:39
It supports the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, with Modern Japanese coming from a mixture of Jomon people from South Asia with Yayoi people from the Korean peninsula


Siberian? I don't think so. For Yayoi, we know that they came from the Korean peninsula, but maybe that before that they were in the Yangtze area, this is a possibility.


Aynu are definitely NOT Caucasians. They are proto-Mongoloids, but not Negroids


From Siberia, I don't think so, so let's say "from the continent". And if the Japanese come from mainly Yayoi agricultors, they can not be nomadic tribes. But I don't think they are reticent to the idea of a migration from the continent.

Regarding the ethnography of the Ainu, click here: http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/jp-origin.htm

I don't know how one can say that the Yayoi were descendants of people from eastern China. If the Yayoi came into Japan through Korea, they were more likely to be of Tungusic origin. The Tungusic element arrived in Japan before the Paekche and Koguryo refugees arrived in Japan circa 400 AD.

Also, many of the Japanese may not be reticent of the idea that they came from the Asiatic continent, but they do downplay the idea that the Japanese in general descended from tribes that came from Siberia or Central Asia.

ToMach
Nov 13, 2004, 17:08
Regarding the ethnography of the Ainu, click here: http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/jp-origin.htm
I prefer not to rely on this rather Korean nationalistic website. When on another page (Who are the Koreans? (http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/go-chosun.htm)) you see such crap as :

The first Korean nation, Han-gook (also pronounced whan-gook, 桓國), was established in 7,197 BC and lasted 3,301 years. According to an archive recently discovered (桓檀古記), this nation was made of 12 tribes in the region of Lake Baikal in Siberia. About 5500 years ago, the climate in Siberia began to cool down and people from this nation began to move out in several directions. One group, sumiri (수밀이 須密爾 -- called the Sumerians by the Westerners), migrated to Mesopotamia and established the Ur, Urk, Lagash, Umma and other city states. The Sumerians had dark hair and share a common linguistic origin with the Koreans. Another group crossed the Beringia and moved into America, while a third group moved into Manchuria and the Korean peninsula. A branch of the America-bound group moved to Japan through Saccharin and pushed out Ainus who came from south centuries earlier.
The king of Han-gook dispatched about 3,000 colonists to the area around Mt. Baiktu, which was inhabited by primitive tribes - the Tiger and the Bear tribes. The Han colonists subdued these tribes and established a new nation, Bai-dal (배달국 倍達國, also called 구리 九黎 and 한웅 桓雄 in Chinese chronicles) in 3,898 BC. This new nation occupied much of Manchuria and expanded into China: at its peak, Bai-dal occupied Habook, Hanam, Shantung, Gangso, Ahnwhi, and Julgang provinces of China. Its culture flourished: creation of 'Chinese' characters, codification of the Oriental medicine, advances in farming methods, and other innovations commonly attributed to the Chinese. The Bai-dal kingdom lasted 1565 years under 18 kings.
Go-Chosun (also called Dangun Chosun) followed Bai-dal in 2333 BC and lasted 2096 years. It was the most powerful nation in Asia of its era but it is rarely mentioned in history books because Japanese and Chinese historians shy away from glorifying the Korean people.
I just cannot considere anything written there as serious.
By the way, the source quoted for "Ainus descended from the Jomon people who inhabited the Japanese island. The Jomon people belonged to the Negroid coastal people of the Sundaland during the last Ice Age" seems also very unreliable to me. And there are many things wrong in the rest of the article.

I don't know how one can say that the Yayoi were descendants of people from eastern China. If the Yayoi came into Japan through Korea, they were more likely to be of Tungusic origin. The Tungusic element arrived in Japan before the Paekche and Koguryo refugees arrived in Japan circa 400 AD.
But what if those Tungusic people were originally from that region of China?


Also, many of the Japanese may not be reticent of the idea that they came from the Asiatic continent, but they do downplay the idea that the Japanese in general descended from tribes that came from Siberia or Central Asia.
Again I don't think this is true anymore. Why do you have this impression?

ippolito
Dec 4, 2004, 04:17
A question Maciamo
When I was last year in Tokyo I saw many girls with boots (it was winter)
that were walking with difficulties....the same problem I have not seen in Korea..
is the seisan position that make some problems to jp women?

TuskCracker
Dec 12, 2004, 22:20
Malaysians

I lived in Malaysia. They are descendants of Polynesians.

—À铠赞
Mar 22, 2005, 19:34
It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.

BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.

A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ when he was in his search for the magical herb of immortality, sent thousands of people to the east for the "mushroom islands".
But of course we know these thing doesnt exist, and since they couldnt find and going back to China would only mean death (for not finding it, is an offence to the emperor). So these people who travelled to the east, found the island of Japan and settled there.

LOL ~ just re~read what i wrote and i sound like such a story-teller ^^;

Also you can see with facial looks there are many similarities between the two.
my history teacher taught me the same things...I believe it's not a belief....I think it's the truth....^^ any opinion??

tai2
May 1, 2005, 02:29
Great subject. Here is an interesting link ...

http://www.dai3gen.net/epage0.htm

Seems there are many varying opinions on this subject, I would be curious to know what is actually taught in elementary schools regarding the origin of Japanese people... anyone know?

ToMach
May 1, 2005, 02:56
I believe it's not a belief
Hum...interesting argumentation...
Let's say that's a myth, maybe the distorted reflect of part of the truth or not, and let's look for real evidence somewhere else.

Tonysoong
May 3, 2005, 01:16
Similarity between the Japanese language and the Fu-jian (southern China) dialect indicates that:

Anthropologically speaking, the Japanese may have originated from the south of China and may have at a time been brought to what's called Japan today by sea winds.

In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just something like the citystate wars within China.

Tonysoong
May 3, 2005, 01:29
Similarity between the Fu-jian (coastal south China) dialect and the Japanese language suggests that the Japanese people may have originated in China and then at one time carried to what's called Japan by sea winds.

In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just like one of those citystate warfares within China.

Hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

Wang
May 7, 2005, 04:11
In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just like one of those citystate warfares within China.

Hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way. :shock: :shock:

—À铠赞
May 7, 2005, 18:00
@wang

u are Taiwanese arent u? I believe u know the term ‰Ølor‰Ø‘°...these 2 words refer to Chinese..but we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China...but we just claim that they(Japanese,Korean) are came from the same anchestor with the Chinese who originated from China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world...it's have nothing to do with occupying other countries...

lexico
May 7, 2005, 20:27
I believe u know the term ‰Øl or ‰Ø‘°... we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....I think I see what you mean; and I'm trying not to misread your freindly intentions. Nevertheless, I believe we live in a time when 'ethnicity' has become a hypersensitive issue to many people. This, in my opinion, is due to the regrettable colonial experience of the 1800's-1900's that literally obliterated so many indigenous countries, cultures, and languages all over the non-west European sphere.

Please do not take my comment as a criticism of your explanation of ‰Ølor ‰Ø‘° nor of the customary use within China or Chinese speaking communities. But I for one would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from translating it as 'someone with a Chinese face.' I would much more appreciate the alternative translation 'Asian-looking.' Being called 'Chinese-looking' can be taken well; nevertheless it is still inaccurate ultimately.

I'm just asking for just a little political correctness, or simple courtesy, as it can become an emotional thing for many, many Asian-looking people who happen not to be Chinese either by country or ethnicity.

btw 'race' in 'yellow skinned race' or any 'race' should be avoided, I think, because it reminds us of WWII attrocities in a very, very disturbing way. I know you didn;t mean that though.
we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China.I'm quite relieved at your statement. :D

but we just claim that we (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) came from the same ancestor who stayed at China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world.There's just a little danger here. Just to give you an alternate theory, the lowlands of the latest glacial peaks were below the current sea level.

Please check the shallow underwaters region in yellow-green (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_wp.jpg) where the majority of hunter-gatherer-fisher-farmers of the early neolithic period of East Asia are believed to have lived in. I'd say most Asians are descended from those lowland peoples, with a relatively small contribution from the highland peoples if I am allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction.

Yet I too admit it makes popular myth and story telling fun and easy to understand for the children. ;-) No harm done as long as we don't take it literally.

What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way.Wang, while I understand your frustration at least on the superficial level, I somehow get the feeling that you are being paranoid about the Chinese legitimacy. Chill out, and you'll do just fine. Building up your resources and resourcefulness. Taiwan will have every right to exist and flourish as any other country. But contending with Mainland China for legitimacy would be asking for trouble it seems. Also picking on faults beyond what is acceptable as two equal countries in the international community is not cool. I don't know how to say it another way. Why can't you be diplomatic about your neighbor's faults ? You shouldn't try to use it to your advantage.

—À铠赞
May 8, 2005, 15:39
I think I see what you mean; and I'm trying not to misread your freindly intentions. Nevertheless, I believe we live in a time when 'ethnicity' has become a hypersensitive issue to many people. This, in my opinion, is due to the regrettable colonial experience of the 1800's-1900's that literally obliterated so many indigenous countries, cultures, and languages all over the non-west European sphere.

Please do not take my comment as a criticism of your explanation of ‰Ølor ‰Ø‘° nor of the customary use within China or Chinese speaking communities. But I for one would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from translating it as 'someone with a Chinese face.' I would much more appreciate the alternative translation 'Asian-looking.' Being called 'Chinese-looking' can be taken well; nevertheless it is still inaccurate ultimately.

I'm just asking for just a little political correctness, or simple courtesy, as it can become an emotional thing for many, many Asian-looking people who happen not to be Chinese either by country or ethnicity.

btw 'race' in 'yellow skinned race' or any 'race' should be avoided, I think, because it reminds us of WWII attrocities in a very, very disturbing way. I know you didn;t mean that though.I'm quite relieved at your statement. :D
There's just a little danger here. Just to give you an alternate theory, the lowlands of the latest glacial peaks were below the current sea level.

Please check the shallow underwaters region in yellow-green (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_wp.jpg) where the majority of hunter-gatherer-fisher-farmers of the early neolithic period of East Asia are believed to have lived in. I'd say most Asians are descended from those lowland peoples, with a relatively small contribution from the highland peoples if I am allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction.

Yet I too admit it makes popular myth and story telling fun and easy to understand for the children. ;-) No harm done as long as we don't take it literally.
Wang, while I understand your frustration at least on the superficial level, I somehow get the feeling that you are being paranoid about the Chinese legitimacy. Chill out, and you'll do just fine. Building up your resources and resourcefulness. Taiwan will have every right to exist and flourish as any other country. But contending with Mainland China for legitimacy would be asking for trouble it seems. Also picking on faults beyond what is acceptable as two equal countries in the international community is not cool. I don't know how to say it another way. Why can't you be diplomatic about your neighbor's faults ? You shouldn't try to use it to your advantage.
I want to say thank for reminding me this things...haha english is not my mother tounge...and I rarely speak english :bluush:
you have corrected my mistake well hehe...^^ :cool:

I want to correct my words about all chinese-lookin people originated from China...but I am quiet sure that we came from same anchestor...wat do you think lexico??

Grimmo
Dec 20, 2005, 03:44
What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way. :shock: :shock:

I've looked through many other japan-related web sites. Almost of all of them are dedicated to the same topic. But they say that chinese are from the south east or south west asia.

It seems that this web site is run by chinese, as I never see japanese themselves interested in this topic, or at least in expressing or propaganding their position.

Cheers.

Grimmo
Dec 20, 2005, 04:09
@wang

u are Taiwanese arent u? I believe u know the term ‰Ølor‰Ø‘°...these 2 words refer to Chinese..but we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China...but we just claim that they(Japanese,Korean) are came from the same anchestor with the Chinese who originated from China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world...it's have nothing to do with occupying other countries...

I said I saw some post from other forums, so this is just a copy and paste . In general, it looks to me that about half of japanese (or if I would be bold, around 60% of total japanese population)are somehow related to modern chinese and korean, but the rest seems to have a blood of Jomon/Ainu.

------------------------
Y chromosomal DNA variation in east Asian populations and its potential for inferring the peopling of Korea.

Kim W, Shin DJ, Harihara S, Kim YJ.

Department of Biology, Dankook University, Cheonan, Choong-Nam, Republic of Korea. [email protected]

We have examined variations of five polymorphic loci (DYS287, DXYS5Y, SRY465, DYS19, and DXYS156Y) on the Y chromosome in samples from a total of 1260 males in eight ethnic groups of East Asia. We found four unique haplotypes constructed from three biallelic markers in these samples of East Asians. The Japanese population was characterized by a relatively high frequency of either the haplotype I-2b (-/Y2/T) or II-1 (+/Y1/C). These dual patterns of the distribution of Y chromosomes (I-2b/II-1) were also found in Korea, although they were present at relatively low frequencies. The haplotype II-1 was present in Northeast Asian populations (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians) only, except for one male from the Thai population among the Southeast Asian populations (Indonesians, Philippines, Thais, and Vietnamese). The Japanese were revealed to have the highest frequency of this haplotype (27.5%), followed by Koreans (2.9%), Mongolians (2.6%), and mainland Chinese (2.2%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplotype I-2b was found to be 17.1% in the Japanese, 9.5% in Indonesian, 6.3% in Korean, 3.8% in Vietnamese, and 2.7% in Thai samples. These findings suggested that the chromosomes of haplotype I-2b were likely derived from certain areas of Northeast Asia, the region closest to Southeast Asia. Phylogenetic analysis using the neighbor-joining tree also reflected a general distinction between Southeast and Northeast Asian populations. The phylogeny revealed a closer genetic relationship between Japanese and Koreans than to the other surveyed Asian populations. Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.

PMID: 10721667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/deyap.gif
Fig. 2 Distribution of Y haplogroups in east Asia. Circle area is proportional to sample size, and the nine haplogroups are represented by different colors

The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

Haplogroups C-RPS4Y711 and K-M9 were widely but not evenly distributed in the east Asian populations. Haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 appears to be the predominant northeast Asian haplogroup, with high frequencies in Mongolians (Buryats, 37.3%; Khalkhs, 42.9%) and Manchurians (22.7%; Table 2, Fig. 2). The moderate frequency of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 Y-chromosomes in Korea (15.0%) implies a genetic influence from northern populations of east Asia, starting possibly in east Siberia. Su and Jin (2001) suggest that the RPS4Y711-T chromosome originated in east Asia, probably in the southeast, and then expanded to the north (Siberia), based on the genetic diversity of Y-STR markers. However, the observed low Y-STR diversity of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 chromosomes in their surveys of Siberian and central Asian populations compared with east Asian populations could also be explained by a more northern (Mongolian and/or Siberian) origin followed by genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes (Pakendorf et al. 2002). Recently, Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman (2003) have suggested that haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 expanded both through a southern route from Africa (e.g., India) to Oceania, and a northern one to Mongolia, Siberia, and eventually to northwest America. Further genetic surveys are required to test these hypotheses, with additional markers and more samples from diverse regions of Asia.
In contrast, M9-G Y-chromosomes show an opposing distribution to those carrying RPS4Y711-T in east Asia: they are more frequent in southern populations than in northern ones, showing a clinal variation from about 90% to 60% (Table 1). The haplogroups carrying the M9-G mutation and additional sublineages of M9-G in Korea appear to be at an intermediate frequency (81.9%) between southeast and northeast Asian populations. This result implies that the Korean population may be influenced by both the northeast and southeast Asian populations. Even within haplogroup O, the most frequent Korean STR haplotype (23-10-13 with the markers DYS390-DYS391-DYS393, 19% of haplogroup O; Table 3) is the most frequent in the Philippines (27%), whereas the second most frequent Korean haplotype (24-10-12, 16%) is the most frequent in Manchuria (45%). Thus, the distribution of haplogroups K-M9 and C-RPS4Y711 may reflect dispersals from both north and south. The settlement of each region at different times needs to be considered in order to understand the peopling of east Asia. Recently, Karafet et al. (2001) have noted that realistic explanations for the peopling of east Asia have to accommodate more complex multidirectional biological and cultural influences than earlier models have allowed.

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/depca.gif
Fig. 3 Principal components (PC) analysis of haplogroup frequencies in 11 east Asian populations (circle Koreans, open diamonds southeast populations, closed diamonds northeast populations)


In this study, the Koreans appear to be most closely related overall to the Manchurians among east Asian ethnic groups (Fig. 2), although a principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies reveals that they also cluster with populations from Yunnan and Vietnam (Fig. 3). The genetic relationship with Manchuria is consistent with the historical evidence that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had a common origin in the northern regions of the Altai Mountains and Lake Baikal of southeastern Siberia (Han 1995; Choi and Rhee 2001). Recent studies of mtDNA (Kivisild et al. 2002) and the Y-chromosome (Karafet et al. 2001) have also indicated that Koreans possess lineages from both the southern and the northern haplogroup complex. In conclusion, the peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process with an initial northern Asian settlement followed by several migrations, mostly from southern-to-northern China.

Grimmo
Dec 20, 2005, 04:14
This one I saw over and over again and posted on numerous other japan related sites.

------------------------
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v77n3/42338/42338.h tml
Y-Chromosome Evidence of Southern Origin of the East AsianSpecific Haplogroup O3-M122

Hong Shi,1,2,6 Yong-li Dong,3 Bo Wen,4 Chun-Jie Xiao,3 Peter A. Underhill,5 Pei-dong Shen,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,7 Li Jin,4,7 and Bing Su1,2,7

1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology and 2Kunming Primate Research Center, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 3Key Laboratory of Bio-resources Conservation and Utilization and Human Genetics Center, Yunnan University, Kunming, China; 4State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai; 5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA; 6Graduate School of Chinese Academy of Science, Beijing; and 7Center for Genome Information, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati

Received March 14, 2005; accepted for publication June 29, 2005; electronically published July 14, 2005.

The prehistoric peopling of East Asia by modern humans remains controversial with respect to early population migrations. Here, we present a systematic sampling and genetic screening of an East Asianspecific Y-chromosome haplogroup (O3-M122) in 2,332 individuals from diverse East Asian populations. Our results indicate that the O3-M122 lineage is dominant in East Asian populations, with an average frequency of 44.3%. The microsatellite data show that the O3-M122 haplotypes in southern East Asia are more diverse than those in northern East Asia, suggesting a southern origin of the O3-M122 mutation. It was estimated that the early northward migration of the O3-M122 lineages in East Asia occurred 25,00030,000 years ago, consistent with the fossil records of modern humans in East Asia.

It should be noted that when we discuss the origin and migration of human populations, a time periodwhich part of the human-population history is under scrutinyshould be clearly defined. Recent population movement and admixture could wipe out or significantly diminish the original genetic signatures of early population movements. Therefore, to extract information for modern human origin and early population movements that happened before the Neolithic period, population-specific markers, such as SNP markers on the Y chromosome, become useful for the study of regional population movements (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). At the same time, recent gene flow between distantly related populations can also be identified and removed in an analysis based on population specificity. Hence, in this sense, extreme caution should be exercised in selection of genetic markers in the study of the origin and early migrations of a continental population, because genetic variations introduced through recent gene flow could create false interpretations, as in two previous studies (Ding et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001). The same logic also applies to the selection of populations; ethnic populations with long histories of inhabitation in a region are always preferred for inferring early population histories.

In East Asian populations, there are three regionally distributed (East Asianspecific) Y-chromosome haplogroups under the M175 lineage (fig. 1)O3-M122, O2-M95, and O1-M119together accounting for 57% of the Y chromosomes in East Asian populations (table 1). The O3-M122 has the highest frequency (41.8% on average) (fig. 2) in East Asians, especially in Han Chinese (52.06% in northern Han and 53.72% in southern Han) (table 1), and it is absent outside East Asia. Previous studies have shown that O2-M95 and O1-M119 are prevalent in SEAS and probably originated in the south (Su et al. 1999, 2000a; Wen et al. 2004a, 2004b) (table 1). Therefore, tracing the origin of O3-M122 became critical for a full understanding of the origin and early migrations of modern East Asians.


http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v77n3/42338/fg2.jpg
The frequency distribution of the O3-M122 haplotypes in East Asian and other continental populations. The data used were from published studies (Su et al. 1999, 2000a, 2000b; Qian et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Lell et al. 2002; Jin et al. 2003; Wen et al. 2004a)

Martialartsnovice
Jan 2, 2006, 13:03
Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group. Europe's population is thought to have originated from groups of nomadic tribes that roam from the Central Asian Steppes, and the Balkans.

I know that when kanji, and katakana are used, they are a altered form of Chinese scripts. These I know developed into the characters today during Japans years in the centuries prior to the spread of Western Europes colonialization of the Indonesian archipleago and then Britains colonial holding of India, etc. These characters are faintlyu similar to their chinese counterparts.

Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.

The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.

Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia. That when the ancestors of the modern chinese started settling the Yangtze river valley and other river valleys, they each started to develop dialects that today have lead to the creation of Korean, Japanese, Chinese and other spoken languages in Southeast Asia.

bossel
Jan 3, 2006, 11:00
Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group.
That's no question. All human populations share the same root. All mongoloid populations share another root, somewhat closer to modern times. The problem is to point out the last common pre-Japanese ancestral population (& who it is shared with).


Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.
Polish is slavic, actually.


The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.
Modern languages are most often similar yet different from their ancient predecessors. I don't really understand what you mean by "based on regional dialects or archaic tongues".


Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia.
Doubtful. That there is a common root is obvious, but that this root still exists is improbable, since languages evolve over time (if they don't evolve, they're dead).

Martialartsnovice
Jan 5, 2006, 11:46
Thanks for the info

Question: What languages officially are recognized as dead or outdated, how are people today able to learn them. I know Latin has played a part in the formation of modern Spanish, Italian, French. Ancient Greek evolved into the modern greek spoken today.

IS it possible though to piece together a shall we say a Asian Latin or Greek that could be like the Rosetta stone in translating ancient Egyptian.

bossel
Jan 5, 2006, 23:14
Question: What languages officially are recognized as dead or outdated, how are people today able to learn them. I know Latin has played a part in the formation of modern Spanish, Italian, French. Ancient Greek evolved into the modern greek spoken today.

IS it possible though to piece together a shall we say a Asian Latin or Greek that could be like the Rosetta stone in translating ancient Egyptian.
Dead languages are usually defined as having no native speakers anymore. There is some ambiguity, though: Eg. Latin as such is dead, but has never died. As you said, it evolved into several other languages. & what we now learn as Latin, is only a snapshot of that language at a certain time/era.

As we are not sure about every detail of Latin pronunciation, we know even less about ancient Egyptian. We know the consonants from their hieroglyphs, but almost no vowls.

Latin & Egyptian are fairly easy to reconstruct in comparison to other "dead" languages which don't have a written record, but reconstruction is possible even for a language like Proto-Indo-European. What we then have is no more than an educated guess, though. The same should be possible for Japanese. But I don't know how reliable the guess-work for proto-Japanese is.

I just googled for proto-Japanese & found some 800 results. I suppose, you should do the same & judge for yourself whether you find the proposed ideas convincing.

Grimmo
Jan 6, 2006, 11:21
Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group. Europe's population is thought to have originated from groups of nomadic tribes that roam from the Central Asian Steppes, and the Balkans.

I know that when kanji, and katakana are used, they are a altered form of Chinese scripts. These I know developed into the characters today during Japans years in the centuries prior to the spread of Western Europes colonialization of the Indonesian archipleago and then Britains colonial holding of India, etc. These characters are faintlyu similar to their chinese counterparts.

Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.

The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.

Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia. That when the ancestors of the modern chinese started settling the Yangtze river valley and other river valleys, they each started to develop dialects that today have lead to the creation of Korean, Japanese, Chinese and other spoken languages in Southeast Asia.

Ethnically, japanese are quiet distinct according to the genetics study.

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/china3.png

Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP =Japanese. Han=Chinese

Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian populations.

hungarian_tom
Jan 12, 2006, 02:16
You were discussing about European roots of Japanese. And also mentioned the horserider ancestry. You mentioned most of the European nations as possible relation to the ancient Aynu people. However you've forgotten one. The Hungarians.

No, I do not want to say that Hungarians are relatives to the Japanese. If you go into Hungary you see only few faces with Asian motives. During the Hungarian's history in Europe, which is officially dating back to 896 AD, the Hungarian population was quite totally diversified with the around living nations. So, it is now hard to distinguish of the other nations in Central Europe.

If you search after Hungarian ancient history, most of the websites and the "official books" will claim that Hungarian people are belonging to Ugro-Finnic people, due to their language.

However the ancient Hungarian myths and legends, and ancient scriptures about Hungarian's origin tell a different story and only partially tolerate any Ugro-finnic relation. During the Communism the publications about this issue were banned, and all the autors and scientists who researched this field were proclaimed as dilettant and fantasying.

Yes. Some of the theories are really ridiculous. However if you deepen yourself into the ancient Hungarians history, and read lots of publications fianlly you can reach a conclusion that Hungarian people surely had relations to the Turkic people at least to the Hun (Xiong nu) people. I do not even mention the large amount of turkish words in the hungarian language, which one are officially proclaimed only as "borrowed" or "argued about it's origin."

You have lead this topic to very scientific level with these genetic proving. I do not understand much genetics, but eeven though I've read about that Japanese professor, Hideo Matsumoto (maybe I write it wrongly), that one tried to make the genetic map of the world.

He has also taken some samples (thousands) from Hungary in the 80's ? and finally has reached such a conclusion that in the largest amount of the Asian character in Europe has occured in the Carpathian Basin which one can be considered as real hystorical Hungary.

Another thing. If a Hungarian explorer or scientist is arriving to Central Asia or East Asia, and reveals his identity the original inhabitants of that region greet the and treat them more hospitally and warmly than the other Europeans.

Why? I've read not only once that in those peoples memory and legends-stories is existing a nation, which one once lived with them. Probably were even relatives to each other. But that nation in their memories took itself up and moved towards the far-far west and became part of Europe.

Whose are those people? The Turkish the Ukrainans, Lattvian?
Not really...

ƒGƒKƒ~@ƒiƒ~ƒI;EGAMI Namio;]ã@”g•v(’˜)


u™±“zEƒtƒ““¯‘°˜_v
#The Hypothesis concerning the Ethnic equality between the Xiongnu and the Huns.
w–¯‘°Œ¤‹†Š‹I—vx 1. “Œ‹ž:–¯‘°Œ¤‹†Š 1944/8/15. pp.71-117(+5).
—ðŽjlŒÃF‘O‹ß‘ã –kƒAƒWƒAˆê”Ê


ƒAƒ“ƒUƒC@ƒJƒYƒI;ANZAI Kazuo;ˆÀÄ@˜a—Y(–ó);ƒAƒ“ƒrƒXCƒ‹ƒC;HAMBIS, Louis(’˜)


wƒAƒbƒ`ƒ‰‚ƃtƒ“‘°x
Attila et Huns.
(•¶ŒÉƒNƒZƒWƒ…@536) “Œ‹ž:”’…ŽÐ 1973. 162p.
—ðŽjlŒÃF‘O‹ß‘ã ’†‰›ƒAƒWƒAˆê”Ê

ƒVƒQƒ}ƒc@ƒVƒ…ƒ“ƒVƒ‡ƒE;SHIGEMATSU Shunsho^;d¼@rÍ(’˜)


uƒGƒtƒ^ƒ‹‚̐¼‘J‚ɏA‚¢‚Ä(1)-(2)v
The Western Migration of the Hephthalites.
w—ðŽj’n—x 28:3,5. “Œ‹ž:“ú–{—ðŽj’n—Œ¤‹†‰ï 1916/9/1,11/1. pp.43-46,139-153.
—ðŽjlŒÃF‘O‹ß‘㠐¼ƒgƒ‹ƒLƒXƒ^ƒ“


ƒgƒNƒiƒK@ƒ„ƒXƒ‚ƒg;TOKUNAGA Yasumoto;“¿‰i@NŒ³(’˜)


uƒnƒ“ƒKƒŠ[‚É‚¨‚¯‚é‹ß”N‚̃tƒ“Œ¤‹†‚ɂ‚¢‚āv
Research on the Huns in Hungary.
w–¯‘°ŠwŒ¤‹†x 14:3. “Œ‹ž:“ú–{–¯‘°Šw‹¦‰ï 1950/2/15. p.84.
‘‹LFŠwŠE“®Œü ƒR[ƒJƒTƒXEƒ^ƒ^[ƒ‹


I cannot read Japanese. But probably there are some answers in those books.

But if those contradict against what I think, what about the recent studies in China-Turkestan about the similarity between Uyghur and Hungarian music? Motives of art? Similar stories?

I still do not know enough about it. I know that I know very little. But I decided to write this forum, even though it's about the origin of Japanese.

hungarian_tom
Jan 12, 2006, 02:59
By the time I found sg. interresting. I was overwhelmed! But I do not take this as "Holy Word"

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2000.6420145.x

Mitsuo
Feb 8, 2006, 04:12
I've heard that the japanese were mixed between Chinese, Russian, and Mongolian. I don't know.

TuskCracker
Feb 9, 2006, 07:16
Origin Of Japanese People

Is their consensus on the answer. Their is too much disagreement to figure this out !

Minty
Mar 19, 2006, 10:27
According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.
I got these informations from some books.
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
Interesting!

Well that the ear wax theories canft be right. In my family my mother my brother and myself have wet ear waxes, while my father, my other brother and my sister have dry ear waxes. There is no record whatsoever in our family tree that we have been mixed with Japanese or Native Americans. We are 100 percent Han.


for the ear wax idea, it is a physicla change to suit the enviroment of the persons surroundings

Most of our families members have lived together and some still live together for a long period of time, but the ear waxes differs among my family. After we migrated to other country/ies, our two different kinds of ear waxes among my family remained the same since birth.

Dharma
Mar 21, 2006, 12:25
It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.
BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.
A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ .

Here I listed two useful websites, you may want to have a look:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm
http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html

Actually I noticed that the Japanese traditions and costumes have a lot of similarities with Chinese Han Dynasty (e.g. tatami, low table) and Tang Dynasty Period.

Dharma
Mar 21, 2006, 12:37
What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way. :shock: :shock:

I just did an essay on "identity politics". What's your definition of claim? On Taiwan issues, the chairman of Taiwan National party just gave a speech in my Uni and I quite agree with his opinion: let's just remain current status, and when democracy from both reach an equilibrium level, unification is possible. The whole world is becoming smaller and smaller and I really like this word "Earth Village". Peopel need to learn to avoid extreme self-identification.We are not the most powerful being and there's no ownership to land or river. Where are these people who once created a brilliant page of their own nation? Ashes to ashes.....

pipokun
Mar 21, 2006, 22:52
How loud voice was from PRC embassy or government for his visit?
Taiwanese officials' visit has been still sensitive matter here.

By the way, this is what Jiang Zemin addressed his speech at my uni in 1998.

’†‘‚͐¢ŠEÅ‘å‚Ì”­“W“rã‘‚Å‚ ‚èA‚¢‚Ü‚È‚¨ŽÐ‰ïŽå‹` ‚̏‰‹‰’iŠK‚É‚ ‚è‚Ü‚·B
PRC is the largest developping country in the world, and still the first stage of socialism.
Hope that the stage advances to 1.01 beta or something now.

Grimmo
Mar 27, 2006, 19:54
Here I listed two useful websites, you may want to have a look:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm
http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html
Actually I noticed that the Japanese traditions and costumes have a lot of similarities with Chinese Han Dynasty (e.g. tatami, low table) and Tang Dynasty Period.

Han chinese is originated from south east and south west asia.

http://www.uglychinese.org/Chinese_migration.jpg

The following figures came from National Science Museum at Ueno/Shinjuku, and supposed to reflect how the mainstream scientist (inland/overseas) sees the origin of japanese people.

http://www.kahaku.go.jp/special/past/japanese/ipix/5/img/5_26_03.jpg

Mainstream hypothesis of migrations into the Japanese islands from Sibelia and Korea. Red=Jomon/Ainu (native islanders), Yellow=Yayoi (korean/chinese)

http://www.kahaku.go.jp/special/past/japanese/ipix/5/img/5_17_03.jpg

It is known that japanese shares about 60% of genes from continents, and 40% from Ainu/Jomon, proto-caucasoid.

Grimmo
Mar 27, 2006, 19:59
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/19/10/1737
Free Online Journal Edition

The Emerging Limbs and Twigs of the East Asian mtDNA Tree
Toomas Kivisild*, Helle-Viivi Tolk*, J&#252;ri Parik*, Yiming Wang, Surinder S. Papiha, Hans-J&#252;rgen Bandelt and Richard Villems*

*Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Estonia;
Department of Medical Genetics, Sun Yat-Sen University of Medical Sciences, People's Republic of China;
Department of Human Genetics, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;
Department of Mathematics, University of Hamburg, Germany

We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China. This approach assists in the interpretation of published mtDNA data on East Asians based on either control region sequencing or restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing. Our results confirm that the East Asian mtDNA pool is locally region-specific and completely covered by the two superhaplogroups M and N. The phylogenetic partitioning based on complete mtDNA sequences corroborates existing RFLP-based classification of Asian mtDNA types and supports the distinction between northern and southern populations. We describe new haplogroups M7, M8, M9, N9, and R9 and demonstrate by way of example that hierarchically subdividing the major branches of the mtDNA tree aids in recognizing the settlement processes of any particular region in appropriate time scale. This is illustrated by the characteristically southern distribution of haplogroup M7 in East Asia, whereas its daughter-groups, M7a and M7b2, specific for Japanese and Korean populations, testify to a presumably (pre-)Jomon contribution to the modern mtDNA pool of Japan.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/vol19/issue10/images/medium/mbev-19-10-16-f03.gif
Fig. 3.\Phylogenetic reconstruction and geographic distribution of haplogroup M7. a, A network of HVS-I haplotypes, which comprises the superposition of the most parsimonious trees for the three postulated sets of M7a, M7b, and M7c sequences. The mutations along the bold links were only analyzed for a few Japanese sequences (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ) and\toward the root of M\for some Chinese sequences (this study): the corresponding individuals with (partial) coding region information are boxed. Numbers along links indicate transitions; recurrent HVS-I mutations are underlined. The age of mtDNA clades is calculated (along the tree indicated by unbroken lines) according to Forster et al. (1996) , with standard errors estimated as in Saillard et al. (2000) . Sample codes (and sources): AI\Ainu (Horai et al. 1996 ); CH\Chinese (Betty et al. 1996 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ; Qian et al. 2001 ; Yao et al. 2002 ; this study); IN\Indonesian (Redd and Stoneking 1999 ); JP\Japanese (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Horai et al. 1996 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ; Seo et al. 1998 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ); KN\Koreans (Horai et al. 1996 ; Lee et al. 1997 ; Pfeiffer et al. 1998 ); MA\Mansi (Derbeneva et al. 2002 ); MJ\Majuro (Sykes et al. 1995 ); MO\Mongolians (Kolman, Sambuughin, and Bermingham 1996 ); PH\Philippines (Sykes et al. 1995 ; Maca-Meyer 2001 ); RY\Ryukyuans (Horai et al. 1996 ); SB\Sabah (Sykes et al. 1995 ); TW\Taiwanese Han (Horai et al. 1996 ) and aboriginals (Melton et al. 1998 ); UI\Uighur (Comas et al. 1998 ; Yao et al. 2000 ); YA\Yakuts (Derenko and Shields 1997 ). b, Frequencies of the subgroups of M7 in Asian populations are inferred from the preceding HVS-I as well as partial HVS-I and RFLP data (VN\Vietnamese: Ballinger et al. 1992 ; Lum et al. 1998 ). Mainland Han Chinese are denoted as follows: GD\Guangdong, LN\Liaoning, QD\Qingdao, WH\Wuhan, XJ\Xinjiang, YU\Yunnan (Yao et al. 2002 ), SH\Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999 ). The number of M7 sequences in relation to the sample size is indicated under each pie slice proportional to the M7 frequency

--------------------------------------
So chinese is much closer to Vietnam, and Thailand, and Nepal in terms of genes.

Some tiny portions of SK shares Jomon and Ainu bloods, (YAP+: 2% of SK, mtDNA markers: 5% of SK). This msut be due to the recent colonization of korea, and possibly long-time trade relationship.

Grimmo
Mar 27, 2006, 20:27
According to genetic results, apporx. 60% or more Japanese are of continental origin (korean/chinese). However, there are significant jomon/ainu bloods in them.

I think on average, japanese appearances are nowhere in east asian.
My guess is due to the the distorsion introduced by jomon/ainu bloods, and their unique facial structures. I guess, there must be some japanese who could be almost deemed as chinese or korean, but there are japanese who is completely outside the chinese/korean facial features.

---------------
http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/brown99.pdf

The first modern East Asians ?:
another look at Upper Cave
101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Peter Brown
Department of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
University of New England
Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/minatogawa.gif

MINATOGAWA 1
The Minatogawa 1 male skeleton was found in 1970 at the
Minatogawa limestone quarry on Okinawa (Suzuki and Hanihara 1982).
111
The first modern East Asians?: another look at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Three female skeletons, in varying states of preservation, and assorted
other fragments were also recovered. The Minatogawa skeletons have
been described in detail in Suzuki and Hanihara (1982), with Suzuki
(1982) describing the crania. Additional comparative information can
be found in Baba and Nerasaki (1991). The Minatogawa 1 cranium is
not as complete as Liujiang and Upper Cave 101, particularly in the
basi-cranium, facial skeleton and temporal regions. Several of the
dimensions used in the analysis to follow had to be estimated.
Unlike Liujiang and Upper Cave there does not appear to have
been any concern over the reliability of the dating of Minatogawa.
Radiocarbon dates of 18,250 }650 to 16,600 }300 years BP were obtained
from charcoal inside the fissure (Kobayashi et al. 1974). Fluorine content
of human and non-human bones within the site suggested that they
were contemporaneous (Matsufura 1982). Assuming that the site was
well stratified, that the carbon dates do bracket the skeletons and that
the skeletons were not intrusive, then Minatogawa remains do have a
strong claim to being the earliest modern human skeletons in East Asia.

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/minatogawaPC.gif

Overall, the scatter plot of Functions 1 and 2 indicate the relative morphological
similarity of the modern and Neolithic Chinese groups, while the
modern Japanese are closer to a wider range of East Asian and Native
American populations. Plots of the total group dispersions associated
with Figure 3 revealed the large degree of overlap between the Neolithic
and modern Chinese and between the modern Japanese, Anyang,
Hainan and Native American groups. The Eskimo and Ainu were more
distinct, as were both of the Australian Aboriginal groups.

Please note that northern and southern japanese are in the middle point between N/S chinese and ainu/jomon/minatogawa. This represents the japanese population
divided into the two completely diverged skull/facial structures.

Grimmo
Mar 27, 2006, 20:29
I presume that on the northernmost japan (aomori, akita, etc), people's face can have many features like ainu, jomon, minatogawa, but no chinese like facial structures could be expected, because of the genetic distributions of YAP+ and DE-YAP and some mtDNA markers. The rest will be defined as yayoi coming from the continent through korean peninsula.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/londonross/facetype2.gif
The results show the average faces of east asian (and some other related)populations.

Please notice that N/S japanese faces are slightly different from N/S chinese. I think this is due to the ainu/jomon population and/or mixtures of both natives and continentals.

Northern chinese are independent of modern yayoi japanese facial structures. Southern chinese are somewhat similar, so the southern chinese tribes may have immigrated to japan through korea 2kya, which now comprises the 60% of total japanese population.

Please note the ainu/jomon (native japanese islanders) which should represent roughly 40% or less of total japanese population (by the results of genetic analysis) shows dissimilarity to the Northern/Southern chinese.

Grimmo
Mar 27, 2006, 20:32
Method of matching up the morphological data with samples:
So what does Ainu and Northern Japanese really look like?
Superficially, we have to consider the representative of the population rather than averaging out. I think the person from the noble family seems to be the most suitable sample for dissecting the phenotype of northern japanese. This is due to the traditional japanese system that samurai or any noble class belong to the lords so the number of years these lords govern means that the samurai under the hierachy has lived with them and rather stay in one place for the long period of time.
Traditional samurai (bushi) and aristocrat (kuge) are hereditary. It's not like your boss fussing around his people, and throw them away. They have very limited capability to even fire off their workers. Except a few dictators like Oda Nobunaga, and Taira no masakado, local lords have to take care of people as much as they do to their family. You can verify this by looking at the cheap furnitures of the lords, if you ever had a chance to visit shiro au japon. In cases the noumin (farmers) complain to the central authority (Tenno or Shogun), they themselves be replaced with other guys. Attachment of those nobles to their lands are unusual by western standard, and can only be understood in cultural context.
From heian to edo period, japanese feudal systems impose severe restrictions (shouen seido to baku han taisei) on moving of people. People belongs to shou (or han), and are not allowed to move to other prefectures. This is why japanese calls their society, mura (village). They don't accept outsiders, for if they do it, they will be punished by the highest authority to illegally admit people from the outside. This static nature of society seems to be of particular importance, as this seems to be a much powerful tool to separate the population.
Taking samples based on locations are justified given that northern han and southern han chinese are sometimes merely classified by their birthplaces, although researchers claim that they do more surveys, but in countries other than japan, you have to make quiet a strong assumption. How about Caviella at Stanford? He's using this method on northern and southern han chinese population. So as long as we stick to the old Japanese population, our method does not go beyond the conventional research method. You just need to take the oldest pictures of the oldest family people, then I think the method is accurate enough.
The figure above of the National Science Museum at Ueno shows the predicted distributions of modern japane ethno-demography. We see the strong support for assuming that eastern, north eastern, northern japan, and southern japan has the higher frequency of habitation of native islanders. The comparison of skulls with, say, central japanese may reveal some morphological differences between each of japanese populations.
I think some renowned or famous guys in this field like Philip Deitiker used more radical approaches for classifying people by looks, and that's similar to mainstream genealogist. I used more conventional approaches than these people. I used the Brown's resutls (posted above) based on Howell's approaches and tried to match up the results with some historical figures who has more information known than J-POP or K-POP singers who only has the birthplace on their profiles. These samurai has a history of some up to 1000 years or more , and this makes me feel that they are representative of both ainu/jomon and yayoi japanese.
Northern Japanese
Mutsu Munemitsu, A minister of Foreign Affair
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/mutsu.jpg
He is nothern japanese from the noblest family in northern japan.
His family tree is from Hiraizumi-Fujiwara clan (Emishi related Ainu).
His ancestor includes some figures like Date Masamune, and the origin of family dates back more than 1000 years ago,
The same person
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Munemitsu_Mutsu_2.jpg
Iinuma Sadakichi (1853-1931) born in Aizu-han
http://img5.picsplace.to/img5/16/iinuma.jpg
Eastern Japanese
Katsu Kaishu, Admiral of the Shogun's fleet
http://www.cgj.org/150th/jpegs/kanrin8.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Kaishu_Katsu_2.jpg

Grimmo
Mar 27, 2006, 20:36
Now, having said about the nothern japanese (northern can be replaced by northernmost). I would like to mention about the southernmost japanese.
They are known to be related to Ryukyuan/Okinawan, and their phenotypes seem to be fairly ainu, but they seem to be mixed with continentals, so they show more varieties. Prime Minister Koizumi's family comes from the noble family in Kagoshima-ken, and he belongs to this class of people.

Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War (no involvement in WWII)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Togo%28Europe%29.JPG

Southernmost Japanese. His ancestor was a neighbor of koizumi's.

Togo Heihachiro in his 58 years old
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/ADMIRALTOGO.JPG
Okubo Toshimichi, Revolutionary, A founder of Meiji Government
Born in Kagoshima, Southernmost Japan
http://www.ndl.go.jp/portrait/260_260/427-53/001/0005_r.jpg

He is the suppoter of domestic development and resisted the
"Conquering of Korea".

He suppressed regional rebellions by the former
samurai class that ended with the Satsuma Rebellion,
but was assassinated by a former samurai in 1878.

His background is middle-ranking samurai, and his phenotype
seems to be from the relation to Ryukyuan, native islanders.

The same person
http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/okubo.gif

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 00:19
http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/china3.png
Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP =Japanese. Han=Chinese

Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian population.

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 00:24
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/AinuGroup.JPG
Group of Ainu people, 1904 photograph, taken in Hokkaido Japan
From Wikipedia "Ainu People"
Due to intermarriage with the Japanese and ongoing absorption into the predominant culture, few living Ainu settlements exist. Many "authentic Ainu villages" advertised in Hokkaido are simply tourist attractions.
If you search the Ainu people over the Web, you will most likely see the fake Ainu people's picture. These are fake japanese pretending to be ainu for tourism
http://www.arco-iris.com/George/images/ainu_pair.jpg
http://library.osu.edu/sites/rarebooks/japan/images/full/supplement/16.jpg

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 00:28
Komura Jutaro (Southern Japanese), Minister of Foreign Affair, Harvard Graduate
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/komura.jpg

Akiyama Saneyuki (Southern Japanese), Hero in Japan-Russo War, Vice-Admiral, died in 1918
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/saneyuki_01.jpg

Akiyama Yoshifuru (Southern Japanese), General, The founder of Japanese Cavalry
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/yoshifuru_03.jpg

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 19:09
Average (not necessarily typical) Korean face
http://www.andongkim.com/articles/2005/08/media/koreanfaceavg16.jpg
http://www.andongkim.com/articles/20...koreanface.htm
Korean scientists allegedly produced what they call, "the average Korean face". The Korean Institute of Science and Technology information (KISTI) working together with the Catholic Institute for Applied Anatomy made computer tomographic scans of Koreans last year and with the aid of a supercomputer produced a "digital Korean" -- a 3-D video of the average Korean's physical structure.
Do you see much differences from the northen japanese?
Northern han CHINESE face.
http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393
Perception of Facial Esthetics by Native Chinese Participants by Using Manipulated Digital Imagery Techniques
Sample population
The Chinese rater group consisted of 85 native Chinese participants from Beijing. Of these raters, 38 were women, and 47 were men (45% women and 55% men). Their mean age was 26.3 } 5.3 years.
Manipulated digital imagery technique
An adult native Chinese male and female stimulus face (A) was selected for digital distortion (Figures 1 and 2 ). Both subjects were 24 years old and were chosen because they exhibited Class I occlusions with average dental proclination and balanced lower facial skeletal proportions previously established as norms for this population. They were meant to be representative of the average facial profile for this ethnic group. Because the Chinese have a shorter than average anterior cranial base and a dental proclination greater than Caucasian norms, their gnormalh profile would be classified, by Caucasian standards, as bimaxillary protrusive.29,30 This profile was selected as representative of the gnormalh Chinese participant.
http://www.angle.org/archive/0003-3219/070/05/figure/i0003-3219-070-05-0393-f01t.gif
FIGURE 1. The gnormalh Chinese male stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions
http://www.angle.org/archive/0003-3219/070/05/figure/i0003-3219-070-05-0393-f02t.gif
FIGURE 2. The gnormalh Chinese female stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 19:10
YAYOI (KOREAN, chinese, continental-related) Japanese
I will complete my posts of noble Japanese by attaching the pictures of the people who are born in the country which is one of the closest to Korean Peninsula. Choshu.

Japanese Modernization actually comes from the union of Choshu (Yamaguchi-ken, Korea or Continental) and Satsuma (Kagoshima-ken, Native islanders such as Ainu, Ryukyuan, Jomon) Clan. It may be possible to compare the two? I think it is a nice idea to see the immediate differences with the earlier posted picture capturing only native islanders (mainly Satsuma clan).

Let's look at the central japanese people (Yayoi aka Korean), born in Choshu (Yamaguchi-ken). I chose them because of the traditional baku-han system which forbids the moving of people between state defined prefectures. These Samurai belong to their lords regardless of locations, so the most samurai forms secluded community based on some central isle lords like Ouchi, Mouri clans.

Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, born in Choshu
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/ito_01.jpg

He is a central japanese from Yamaguchi-ken. Geographically, Yamaguchi is one of the closest country to Korea. He could be one of the Korean-origin Japanese.

His obsession with Korea is known by his infamous annexation of Korea.

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 19:11
Another Yayoi (aka Korea, China, other continentals) Japanese, Born in Choshu
Okuma Shigenobu, The minister of Foreign Affair
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/okuma.jpg
He is from Choshu, Yamaguchi. He is a typical central Japanese.
His look is in contrast to those Shimazu-clan and northern japanese noble.

Katsura Taro, Prime Minister, Born in Choshu (Chinese, Korean, continental, related)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/11_KatsuraT.jpg

He is the most tactful politician devising the overthrow of Shogun Regime, and hand the power back to imperial family. He was sent to Germany to learn strategy and tactics.

As with Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, his background is humble, and from not so wealthy background.

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 19:13
Now Let's assess the Chinese appearance. We'll take samples from the historical figures again for the reasons that they are less subject to the mixes with other asian, or even caucasoids. I tried to choose samples mostly from southern han chinese because of morphological results stating the closer proximity to general japanese population including both jomon and yayoi

Note: Northern and Southern han chinese comprises 90% of total population in china.

Yuan Shikai, Han Chinese General, Republic president, dictator and chinese emperor
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Yuan_Shi-Kai.jpg

K'ung Hsiang-hsi, Chinese Banker and Politician
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/HHKung.jpg

Name: Sung Chiao-jen (1882–1913) Chinese revolutionary and political leader, later assasinated allegedly by Yuan Shikai.
Ethnicity: han chinese
BirthPlace: unknown
Lineage: unknown

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c0/Sung_Chiao-jen.jpg/469px-Sung_Chiao-jen.jpg


Name: Hu, Die
Ethnicity: han chinese
BirthPlace: Shanghai?
Lineage: unknown

http://student.science.nus.edu.sg/~scip9109/zxr-shanghai/sh_Hu_Die.jpg

Name: Ruan Lingyu
Birthplace: Shanghai
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Lineage: Unknown

http://image.muzi.com/icon_c/20068_001_a.jpg

Name: Chen Duxiu (1879–1942), founder of Chinese Communist Party (Anhui Patriotic Association), Controversial figure as he stayed in Japan for a while. Later became Trotskyist
Birthplaces: Anhui (Central China)
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Lineage: Unknown

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Chen2..JPG


Name: Li Dazhao (1888-1927), Chinese intellectual who cofounded the Communist Party of China with Chen Duxiu in 1921. Studied Political Economy at Waseda University.
Birthplaces: Unknown
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Lineage: Unknown

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Li-dazhao.jpg

Name: Wang Ming (1904-1974) a senior leader of the early Chinese Communist Party (CCP)
Birthplace: Anhui
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Lineage: Unknown
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Wang_Ming.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Wang_Ming2.jpg


Name: Hu Shih (1891-1962) Chinese philosopher and essayist. He studied at Cornell and Columbia University. Known to be influenced by John Dewey. Important figure in May Fourth Movement.
Birthplace: Shanghai
Ethnicity: Han chinese
Lineages: Ancestry in Anhui
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Hu4.jpg
Chen_Duxiu and Hu Shih
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Chen_Duxiu.jpg

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 19:15
Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Communist Party of China
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/Mao-young.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Mao.gif

Sun Yat-sen
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/photos/hist_other/sun.jpg

Zhou Enlai, Premier of People's Republic of China
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Joenlai.jpg


Example Picture: (Information from wikipedia)
Name: General Chiang Kai-shek, leader of the Kuomintang
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
BirthPlace: Zhejiang Province.
Lineage: Jiangsu, juncture between North China and South China

http://www.uniphoto.co.jp/english/images/china/july/july_4.jpg

Grimmo
Mar 30, 2006, 19:16
Observe that eyes of chinese are almost all double eyelids with obscure lines. Also, their facial structure especially around eyes and eyebrows are almost flat.

Now looking back japanese eyes, they don't usually have a double eyelid, but the facial surfaces between eyes and eyebrows are not flat, more depth in 3 dimension. Protruding eyebrow and sunken eyes.


JAPANESE FACE: (Ryukyuan/Ainu/Jomon)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Togo%28Europe%29.JPG
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/mutsu.jpg
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/komura.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Taisuke_Itagaki_4.jpg
http://www.ndl.go.jp/portrait/260_260/427-53/001/0005_r.jpg
http://img5.picsplace.to/img5/16/iinuma.jpg

CHINESE FACE:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/Mao-young.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Joenlai.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/TVSoong.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/aa/Yuan_shikai.jpg
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/photos/hist_other/sun.jpg

SOUTHERN HAN CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids. Also notice that eye and eyebrows are positioned on almost the same level, giving even flater impressions. The epicanthic fold are heavily expressed. Jaws are wider, and possibly roundly formed

JAPANESE: Eyes are placed deeper inside the skull, giving the sunken eyes with single eyelid, or double eyelids formed along with skull (in chinese face, double eyelids are simply formed with eye folds. Japanese double eyelids, if any, have a clear line aligned with skulls, and expressed outerior on the face surface as opposed to chinese interior eyelid). Epicanthic folds not highly expressed, but idyosyncrasies of eyes are expressed as the narrowly visible area of the eyes. Jaws are narrow, and possible crooked teeth are often observed

Minty
Mar 30, 2006, 21:52
Observe that eyes of chinese are almost all double eyelids with obscure lines. Also, their facial structure especially around eyes and eyebrows are almost flat.

Most Chinese do not have double eye lids, the examples you picked just so happened to be a group who does.

Many East Asian girls are undergoing eyelid surgery known as blepharoplasty.
The surgery involves making incisions at the top of the upper eyelid, removing the fat, and thus transforming the single 'slanted' eyelid into a double 'creased' eyelid.

Statistics show that 50% of Asian women are born with single eyelids. This surgery is especially prominent in Korea and Japan. Possibly in Chinese societies too but Chinese are poorer (due to communist China) so in general, most can't afford this kind of surgery.


Now looking back japanese eyes, they don't usually have a double eyelid, but the facial surfaces between eyes and eyebrows are not flat, more depth in 3 dimension. Protruding eyebrow and sunken eyes.

It is true a lot of Chinese have flatter features but I do not think most Japanese have 3 dimensional features and I have seen a lot of Japanese and Chinese.


SOUTHERN HAN CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids. Also notice that eye and eyebrows are positioned on almost the same level, giving even flater impressions. The epicanthic fold are heavily expressed. Jaws are wider, and possibly roundly formed

The stereotypical southern Chinese:
•Has almond-shaped eyes
•Is shorter and has a smooth, round face (more than likely, no facial hair)

I think you should not use movie stars as examples because they usually have double eye lids as it is considered to be beautiful in not just Chinesefs taste but in East Asian's perception of beauty in general. Most Chinese do not have double eye lids.


JAPANESE: Eyes are placed deeper inside the skull, giving the sunken eyes with single eyelid, or double eyelids formed along with skull (in chinese face, double eyelids are simply formed with eye folds. Japanese double eyelids, if any, have a clear line aligned with skulls, and expressed outerior on the face surface as opposed to chinese interior eyelid). Epicanthic folds not highly expressed, but idyosyncrasies of eyes are expressed as the narrowly visible area of the eyes. Jaws are narrow, and possible crooked teeth are often observed

Of course Chinese and Japanese donft really look the same but in comparison to Indians or Vikings...etc they do. Itfs just like Germans and French donft really look the same but in comparison to Koreans or Arabians...etc they do.

My husband is often mistaken to be German in Europe but he is French.
Actually his ethnicity is half Belge half Italian but he is French as he is born and has lived in France all his life.

When I took him to Taiwan for vacation one of the sales girls in the bridal shop actually thought he was Middle Eastern.

So ridiculous just because he has dark brown hair and black beard and her perception of French are either white people who have light brown hairs or blonde hairs. :mad: :shock: But he has never been mistaken not to be of European descendents from any one else before.

Grimmo
Mar 31, 2006, 01:44
Thank you for the reply, Minty.
I presume that you didn't have enough time to
go through all my posts, and jumpt through conclusion
and made comments, which are understandable.
Japanese gene stocks are, strictly speaking, from four major ethnicity:
1) Ainu and jomon, native islander
2) Yayoi: South west sibelian (including korean)
3) Yayoi: South east asian (including han chinese)
4) Polynesian:
(2) and (3) does make up approximately 50% of total japanese population, or could be even 60% given that this race is admixtured with (I) and (4).
So, if can generalize a bit,
(1)Ainu/jomon: 40%
(2)Chinese/Korea: 50%
(3)Polynesian: 10%
A few things I want to ask is:

Statistics show that 50% of Asian women are born with single eyelids.
-- where is the source of this?


The stereotypical southern Chinese:
•Has almond-shaped eyes
•Is shorter and has a smooth, round face (more than likely, no facial hair)
-- Interesting comment. Your description of southern han chinese could be more biased than my comment. Could you demonstrate your points by giving the examples? Guidelines are that it has to be a picture taken from 1800-1950 so that the lineages are much clearer than modern asian, who are more difficult to traced.


Most Chinese do not have double eye lids, the examples you picked just so happened to be a group who does.
-- My point is more or so that with a thick eye fold, double eyelids can be much easily formed, and does not necessarily mean that all chinese are double eye-lids. But northeastern asian's morphology generally supports the single eyelid theory. Quality of double eyelids on japanese and chinese are certainly different in these regards, if there is one speaking of on japanese at all.
Lastly, why chinese people likes to state that they are the same people as japanese? Don't they have a pride? In terms of Morphology and genetics, many japanese are remote to han chinese people, and lumping all together is misleading, because some japanese looks caucasoid or polynesian than chinese. If more than 40% of that race is not looking chinese, then the claim of identity in east asia does not hold.

Grimmo
Mar 31, 2006, 03:10
Regarding the origin of chinese people, han chinese are the
mutants of south east and south west asian (e.g., vietnamese,
thais, and nepalese)

http://www.uglychinese.org/Chinese_migration.jpg

Japanese Ainu and Jomons are called the proto-caucasoids, and
very different from han chinese people. Maybe, Japanese you saw was only
yayoi (continental) japanese, or mixed jomon/yayoi.

Grimmo
Mar 31, 2006, 03:39
Hi

just found an interesting image on jomon (native islander) and yayoi (continental, korean and chinese). Does anyone have more pictures on this?

http://www.rickdom.com/archives/images/jomon.jpg

bossel
Mar 31, 2006, 09:48
Hi
just found an interesting image on jomon (native islander) and yayoi (continental, korean and chinese). Does anyone have more pictures on this?
May I ask what you're trying to prove by flooding this thread with these portraits (& other pics)? Judging from your (Ken?) thread in another forum, there is probably more to come.

Outer appearance (esp. modern) is much too varied to conclude from this on what happened 2000 years ago. Concentrating on "nobility" won't do the trick either, because you don't know how much incest has been going on.

Do you have any source for your idea that Ainu are proto-caucasoid?


Itfs just like Germans and French donft really look the same
Er..., what's the difference? I suppose, there is a greater difference between a French Fleming & a Mediterranean Frenchman than between the Fleming & a Rhinelander.
Both France & Germany have quite a mixed population, anyway.

Grimmo
Mar 31, 2006, 20:32
Outer appearance (esp. modern) is much too varied to conclude from this on what happened 2000 years ago. Concentrating on "nobility" won't do the trick either, because you don't know how much incest has been going on.

I don't how much lies in their family tree is in their nobles, but I clustered them in the regions of high ainu gene density and low ainu gene density.



Do you have any source for your idea that Ainu are proto-caucasoid?

To show that Ainu is proto-caucasoid, I cannot merely concern the population in east asia. We know the two types of proto-caucasoid features in tiny minority of native north american and native aborigine. By proto-caucasoid, there has to be one of the three conditions satisfied:

1) Ancestral to the modern caucasoid and mongoloid in central asia
2) Split from both population 30-50k years ago
3) Facial features common to other known proto-caucasoids (either north american or Australian Aborigine)

1) hard to prove by population genetics, as the extensive mutation and speciation makes it diverse even within the same proto-caucasoids cluster. Main problem is extreme environmental variation and the extinction and assiimilation of species so that we no longer have an ideal pure proto-caucasoid reference population. In the north sibelia and Australia, the temperature difference can be a factor. But if you like I can post the genentic connection of Ainu to native northern americans, although at the moment, my institution are not subscribed to that particular journal.

2) This is rather lengthy to show, and still disputed widely. Possibly, another one whole page of this thread. Should I do it? Bossel?

3) Minatogawa man found in Okinawa, Aomori, and Hokkaido was posted above. please refer back to my earlier posts. In principal component analysis, Jomon's morphology is the closest to Australian Aborigine. Ainu and Eskimo forms another cluster in comparison with other population, both are close to Minatogawa man skull, and there may be a possible connection.

Minty
Apr 1, 2006, 00:43
where is the source of this?
From here:

http://www.asianbleph.com/faq.html


Interesting comment. Your description of southern han chinese could be more biased than my comment.

Umc possibly but these are very rough stereotypes, and are largely perflexed both by additional stereotypes by province (or even county) and by real life.


Could you demonstrate your points by giving the examples? Guidelines are that it has be a picture taken from 1800-1950 so that the lineages are much clearer than modern asian, who are more difficult to trace the root.

I donft think our appearances have changed much since the 1940s. The best examples are my grand parents who have the features close to a typical Southern Chinese I describe but I donft think it is a good idea to put my familyfs picture on the web. I donft think by just picking famous Chinese people mainly from or close to the Second World War periods on the web indicates the looks of most Southern Chinese, because famous Chinese do not necessarily equate typical Chinese appearances. For example, Mao Zedong I have never met any other southern Chinese that look like him.
The large majority of inland Chinese actually appear mainly "northern", just not as paedomorphic/neotenic as Koreans and Japanese.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/toothlog/f31207a6.jpg
Dwellers of northern China are "northern", southern coastal China "southern" and central Chinese intermediate.


My point is more or so that with a thick eye fold, double eyelids can be much easily formed, and does not necessarily mean that all chinese are double eye-lids. But northeastern asian's morphology generally supports the single eyelid theory. Quality of double eyelids on Japanese and chinese are certainly different in these regards, if there is one speaking of on japanese at all.

Right, it just that when I read gSOUTHERN HAN CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids.h It looks like to me you are saying generally Southern Chinese have double eyelids . I don't think a lot of the Chinese have double eye lids.


Lastly, why chinese people likes to state that they are the same people as japanese? Don't they have a pride? In terms of Morphology and genetics, many japanese are remote to han chinese people, and lumping all together is misleading, because some japanese looks caucasoid or polynesian than chinese. If more than 40% of that race is not looking chinese, then the claim of identity in east asia does not hold.

I donft think Chinese like to state Japanese and Chinese are exactly the same people, but we do consider the fact that all three groups (Chinese Japanese Koreans) of people consist to the same varieties. The nearest being said is that "Japanese and Korean culture evolved from Chinese culture".

If there are any Chinese who claimed that then the reply I would suggest is deep-seated Sino centric mentality as ancient China was the "dominant cultural focush for the domain for over 2000 years, there is a scrap of sinocentricism among some modern Chinese today.

But for me it is my personal experiences that lead me to believe some of us do look similar. Every time I go to the Japanese restaurant they always greet me in Japanese, after about five to six or so times they remember that I am not one of their own then start to talk to me in English. The Japanese on the streets, the ones in tours I have been in also often have approached me and asked whether I am Japanese? So it is them who led me to make this conclusion it is not me who initiate this.

Ancient HuaXia people of upper Yellow River Basin and Dong-Yi kins of China's Shandong Peninsula were the two descents of Han Chinese afterwards admitted Northern/Northeastern nomadic clans plus a few other Mongoloid ethnicities over a sweep of time evolved to what's modern day Han Chinese, which is more a cultural individuality than a monumental ethnicity because it's a genetically " Heinz 57 ".

According to history, Koreans and Japanese migrated from Asia continent, but these two countries are mostly of northern nomadic stock plus a percentage of the population is of Han Chinese lineage.

At least 50% Japanese population share classic Tungusic-Manchu looks with Koreans of Paekche/PUYO ancestry. There is commixture of Polynesian lineage within her people. Certain amount of Koreans and Japanese do appear kind of Northern and coastal region Han Chinese, some Koreans can delineate their kinfolks to Chinese inheritance to China' Shandong Peninsula.

Only the native Japanese Ainu people appear Australoid or the maybe the mixed of Astroloid and Mongloid, I think and the remainder of Japanese appear closer to Mongoloid.

Its true Japanese are genetically nearer to Koreans than the adulterate modern-day Han Chinese, majority of the Japanese gene pool descended from Korea's antique Southern realms expected to geographical propinquity.
Koreans and Japanese are NE Asians rooted on their Mongoloid origins of north-eastern nomadic on the Asia continent.


Er..., what's the difference? I suppose, there is a greater difference between a French Fleming & a Mediterranean Frenchman than between the Fleming & a Rhinelander.
Both France & Germany have quite a mixed population, anyway.

Yes I agree and I know about the certain amount of mixed population between Germans and French but I wonft say they are exactly the same.

French ethnicity is mainly Celtic and Latin and Teutonic and their minority is with Slavic, North African Sub-Saharan African, Indochinese and Basques

I think Germans are mostly Germanic people where as minority in Germany are Turks, Italian and Greeks.


Facial features common to other known proto-caucasoids (either north american or Australian Aborigine)

Huh? I thought Australian aboriginals are Astroloid and North American Indians are Mongloid.

Minty
Apr 1, 2006, 00:44
Geez I double posted by mistake.

The picture I gave is a volunteer, he looks like quite a lot of the southern Chinese guys I know, but it does not mean southerners must look like this.

Grimmo
Apr 1, 2006, 01:18
Hi Minty,
thank you for the reply, I'll try to read and write back.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/toothlog/f31207a6.jpg
Thank you very much for the cooperation. I'll try not ask his
personal info other than his root, and lineage. :wave:

Grimmo
Apr 2, 2006, 08:10
Let me first comment on the pic. I agree that his look can be southern han. But I can say his nose structure is closer to northern han. On the whole, face is han. Jaws are not as round or squared as northern asian. But it looks to me that his face, eyes placed flat to the surface, and his short -ended nosebridge, does not seem contradictory to my generalization.

Evolutionary process of han chinese probably starts from south east asia, as found by genetic studies linking south east asian and northern han chinese, and some portions of Korean and japanese population. As the population from the south to north proceeded, we can see that the nose can be narrower, and eyes gain more fats to protect from the extreme cold on the north.

By proto-caucasoid in North America, we sometimes refer to Kennewick man, but I simply use the result of studies linking Kennewick man with "some" Australian aborigines.

Here is some anthoropoligical description of kennewick man. I have to warn you that they didn't filter based on morphology and genetics, so the conclusion derived from the article should not be trusted.



http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/hive/Kenn-Man/Kennewic.htm
Homo sapiens first appeared less than 200,000 years ago, likewise in equatorial Africa. This earliest incarnation we might call Proto-Negroid. One part then moved to North Africa and the Middle East sometime in the period 100,000 to 70,000 B.P. For a long time this new "sapient" form, our ancestors, co-existed with Neanderthals, Homo erectus and perhaps yet other human sub-groups until finally, probably about 45,000 years ago, Homo sapiens alone developed the intellectual tool of language, which enabled him to out-compete and exterminate the other types. (Cf. Ian Tattersall's article in the January 2000, Volume 282, Number 1 edition of Scientific American, referred to in the table above.)

With this first move northward, the first split also occurred: those that remained in equatorial Africa became the ancestors to modern African Negroes or Blacks; the emigrants, on the other hand, gave rise to the rest of humanity.

One strand of the emigrants (still Proto-Negroid) kept to the southernmost portions of Asia and, migrating eastward, gave rise to the Proto-Negroid peoples of Australia and the Melanesian islands north and northeast of it, such as New Guinea, as well as to the subtropical populations of southeast Asia (~40,000 B.P.). Some of this same southern strand continued on even further: sailing up around the Pacific Rim (or perhaps directly eastwards), they eventually colonized South America, thereby becoming the first humans - the true "Native Americans" - in the western hemisphere. All of this happened before the appearance of the Mongoloid type (Amerinds) in the Americas. These early migrants did not spend very much time, if any, in the frigid vicinity of Ice-Age glaciers, and were not subjected to the fierce evolutionary pressures that awaited those who took a glacially slow route through the north. Thus these first South Americans changed little from the earliest Homo sapiens prototype and retained much of the Proto-Negroid nature of their ancestors.

In contrast to this southern emigrant stream, the northernmost portions of the Middle Eastern remainder of the African emigr&#233;s spread out to the northwest, north and northeast, losing their dark skin pigmentation in proportion to their northward advance and becoming Proto-Caucasoid (~70,000-50,000). The groups farthest east took to boats and reached (~25,000-15,000 B.P.) Japan, Polynesia and, finally, North America, where they became the ancestors of Kennewick Man, Stick Man and many other pre-Indians. In north Eurasia in the late Ice-Age period of 40,000 to 20,000 years ago, this Proto-Caucasoid northern branch underwent considerable pressures of natural selection due to the intensely cold winters. Among other things, these pressures selected for increasingly higher intelligence and the larger brains required to support it. During this time and especially over the seven-thousand-year period from about 22,000 to 15,000 years ago, the cold-tolerant Proto-Mongoloid form gradually emerged in the barren, icy wastes north of Lake Baikal. Meanwhile the less severe conditions closer to the Mediterranean, Black and Caspian Seas allowed a more "leisurely" evolution. Thus from the Proto-Caucasoid base emerged the Caucasoids in the west and the Mongoloids in the mid-Siberian east, while the less-pressured, easternmost northerners, who formed the basis of the Jomon culture and the later Ainu, did not change very much at all during this period.

So it came about that the Negroid peoples of Australia and Melanesia, together with the earliest inhabitants of South America, retained more of the traits of the earliest, Proto-Negroid forms of Homo sapiens, and are most closely related to African Negroes.

In a parallel manner, the White peoples of Europe retain somewhat more of the traits of the early, northern group of humans (Proto-Caucasoids) before the emergence of the Mongoloid type in the east, than do the Mongoloids. This explains why the Kennewick Man, Stick Man and other pre-Amerind North American relatives (as well as the Ainu of Japan) give an initial impression of being Caucasoid, since Whites are generally closer to the pre-split (and pre-Mongoloid) northern prototype, than are the Orientals who have diverged more strongly from it. (On this, see also "RACE, EVOLUTION AND BEHAVIOR: A Life History Perspective," 2nd Special Abridged Edition, Professor J. Philippe Rushton, U. of Western Ontario.)

bossel
Apr 2, 2006, 12:11
By proto-caucasoid, there has to be one of the three conditions satisfied:
1) Ancestral to the modern caucasoid and mongoloid in central asia
Proto-caucasoid as I understand it would mean the population from which the caucasoids evolved. Any evidence that the Ainu actually are direct descendents of that population?


2) Split from both population 30-50k years ago
:souka: Do you mean that Ainu were actually predecessors of both caucasoid & mongoloid races? That would mean that they were proto-caucasoid/mongoloid.


3) Facial features common to other known proto-caucasoids (either north american or Australian Aborigine)
Aborigenes are proto-caucasoid, too? Amerindians, as well? Caucasoid ancestry must be very heterogenous, then.


2) This is rather lengthy to show, and still disputed widely. Possibly, another one whole page of this thread. Should I do it? Bossel?
If you think that anyone would read it. I suppose, a link to some peer-reviewed articles would suffice.


Jomon's morphology is the closest to Australian Aborigine. Ainu and Eskimo forms another cluster in comparison with other population,
Morphology, hmm? Not very convincing, esp. since Ainu are said to be derived from Jomon. Skulls give hints, but not more, IMO.

Grimmo
Apr 2, 2006, 15:38
Proto-caucasoid as I understand it would mean the population from which the caucasoids evolved. Any evidence that the Ainu actually are direct descendents of that population?

Genetically, the idea of proto-caucasoids are obscure, because the phylogeny of proto-caucasoids would not choose them to be common ancestor of Caucasoids. When I said this term, I confess I don't have much idea except certain skull feature.

I have no proof, either. The idea of grouping ainu/jomon into mongoloid or caucasoid, is rejected many times. I presume that people just made up and use the proto-caucasoid which does not fit in the description of more generic mongoloid, caucasoid, and negroid. Ainu/Jomon is unique and does not need to be classed, but because scientist likes to group them up, they invented a few obscure terms. Still, proto-caucasoids are not the best term for any of modern races, because of admixtures, and environmental variation in the population.


Aborigenes are proto-caucasoid, too? Amerindians, as well? Caucasoid ancestry must be very heterogenous, then.

I need to warn you that I assumed too much regarding Australian Aborigines (they also have racial mixtures within). There is a study of comparing the skulls of Kennewick man, and some residents in Oseania (or Australia) showing some proximity. I said I used this result, but as minty pointed out, this is the weakest assumption. I don't have any support evidence backing my assumption that these two share the closer common ancestor either, I mean genetically. So this idea can be rubbish, but more or less an idea I advocate,


Morphology, hmm? Not very convincing, esp. since Ainu are said to be derived from Jomon. Skulls give hints, but not more, IMO.

The field of linking up genotypes with phenotypes in evolutionary setting is new, and there are no serious studies published yet, accoding to the professor I talked to. Morphological results will be useful as there will be findings on the genotyped markers of these facial features, some day. For a moment, it will be a speculation, and stays in the level of social or anthoropological science.

Minty
Apr 3, 2006, 05:46
Let me first comment on the pic. I agree that his look can be southern han. But I can say his nose structure is closer to northern han. On the whole, face is han. Jaws are not as round or squared as northern asian. But it looks to me that his face, eyes placed flat to the surface, and his short -ended nosebridge, does not seem contradictory to my generalization.

It is very difficult to determine southern and northern Chinese even the two are genetically quite different. I pick him because I have seen thousands of Chinese who look roughly like that. In the case of Chinese, it is not accomplishable to search for an individual model or an original as symbolic of her community, exclusively for potentially definite cultural factors.

What I don't agree on your arguments are the bits where you discussed about the double eye lids of East Asians. Are you certain when Japanese have double eye lids they are mostly of what your pictures suggested? It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.

If that is really the case why they couldnft tell I am not Japanese by just looking at me, I am sure other Chinese or Koreans, possibly even Vietnamese probably have experienced similar things.

http://www.naz.nevada.edu/Macau_University_2005/Resize%20of%20Rotation%20of%20DSC08408_small.JPG

I found a Chinese girl which has a rather typical Chinese face.

http://www.webplay.cn/UserFiles/Image/music/singer/ht/wangJie/logo_1.jpg

This is a Taiwanese singer, his face is quite typical of Han, Chinese.

http://saychinese.nazin.net/bbs/data/music/임현제.jpg

http://www.richiesfamily.com/view2004/2004-04-126.jpg

This is Ren Xian Qi, a Taiwanese singer.

I choose these two celebrities because they are not pretty boys, but rather average Chinese looking, they are famous for their talents not for their looks unlike some others.

http://myspace-121.vo.llnwd.net/00412/12/19/412409121_l.jpg
Another Chinese person with a common chinese face.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5379/496/1600/mongoloids.jpg

Out of these three pictures which one do you think is Japanese, Chinese and Korean?

Why don't you take a quiz to see whether you can determine who is who?

Below is the link to the quiz:
http://www.alllooksame.com/

Grimmo
Apr 3, 2006, 10:42
It is very difficult to determine southern and northern Chinese even the two are genetically quite different. I pick him because I have seen thousands of Chinese who look roughly like that. In the case of Chinese, it is not accomplishable to search for an individual model or an original as symbolic of her community, exclusively for potentially definite cultural factors.

But northern and southern had are in the same genetic cluster if you compare the population to japanese. We call the difference between north and south han, the distance by isolation, or speciation. Southern han is ancestral to northern han, and south east asian and tibetan is ancestral to southern han. Northern han was split from southern han long time ago, and underwent some environmental variations, but they are essentially closer to each other than to Machus, Korean, Mongols, who northern han was also mixed with over the years.


What I don't agree on your arguments are the bits where you discussed about the double eye lids of East Asians. Are you certain when Japanese have double eye lids they are mostly of what your pictures suggested? It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.
If that is really the case why they couldnft tell I am not Japanese by just looking at me, I am sure other Chinese or Koreans, possibly even Vietnamese probably have experienced similar things.

You have not stated my argument correctly. My argument is that half of japanese population (called jomon/ainu) has a distinct genetic composition in contrast to south east+west asian cluster including northern/southern han, and northern asian like korean and mongols.

Yayoi japanese are entirely continental, and when you say japanese, you only points to this class of people. They are continental people so they do look similar to korean and chinese, or not distinguishable at all.

Jomon japanese who comprise about 40% of japanese do live in the northermost honshu, and southern parts of islands. Your experiences and observations may not be so useful, as that would be isolated events.

Japanese who lives in the islands for 30 years has seen so much more faces, and be more familiar with the many types of japanese. If you insist the empirical observations over the science, you may as well to consult those japanese who preferably moved from one place to another, and living in japan long time. The idea of asking chinese about the similarity or dissimilarity between han chinese and japanese are not seemingly sensible, as even japan-resident chinese would stay in the certain parts of islands only and staying for not longer than 10 years and they do not see variations of people therein. In your case, I have an impression that you have not even come to stay in japan for a few days, then the idea of empirical observations is too weak for making any points.


Below is the link to the quiz:
http://www.alllooksame.com/

I know this web site very well. It's used as a propaganda to make "all look like same". To be fair, this is an attempt of art, and admirable to some extent.

What the site is doing is to pick korean people who looks chinese or japanese (doesn't matter if their moms are japanese or chinese) and decorate them like japanese or chinese, or vice versa. If the comparisons be made between only jomon japanese and han chinese, that would probably turn to "alllookdifferent.com"

I never think this arbitrary effort would ever outweigh the scientific approach. It's only useful for one-sided view to lump japanese and korean together with han chinese.

Grimmo
Apr 3, 2006, 10:54
You said eyes are not different in both japanese and han chinese, but
the quick comparisons do seem to show that they look different.
Japanese
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/komura.jpg
Chinese
http://www.webplay.cn/UserFiles/Image/music/singer/ht/wangJie/logo_1.jpg




Japanese
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Taisuke_Itagaki_4.jpg
Chinese
http://myspace-121.vo.llnwd.net/00412/12/19/412409121_l.jpg




Japanese
http://www.ndl.go.jp/portrait/260_260/427-53/001/0005_r.jpg
Chinese
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/toothlog/f31207a6.jpg

Minty
Apr 4, 2006, 02:31
You said eyes are not different in both japanese and han chinese, but
the quick comparisons do seem to show that they look different.

No, I said gIt is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.h

Anyway if you are going to compare Chinese with single eye lids you should compare them with Japanese people with single eye lids.

I found this Japanese studentfs picture on the web, a lot of the Japanese students or young people that I have seen look like this:

http://www.menzies.school.nz/general/Japanese%20student%20(9).jpg

Another Japanese student:
http://static.flickr.com/32/37524899_ceea725a55_m.jpg

And another one:
http://www.teaching-in-japan.com/images/japanese-student.jpg

A Japanese male student with single eye lid:
http://www.matsuo.mech.keio.ac.jp/japanese/student/2003/p.03.watanabe.jpg

Japanese and Chinese celebrities (comparison of double eye lids), most celebrities have double eye lids. Seriously I have rarely seen Japanese with sunken eyes.

http://img205.exs.cx/img205/9643/2003109163718304834su.jpg
Vivian chow a famous Chinese beauty from HK wearing Manchurian clothes with double eye lids.

http://image2.sina.com.cn/ent/d/2004-02-18/U105P28T3D306327F326DT20040218154235.jpg

Chinese actor with double eye lids

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9357/jia35it.jpg
Chinese actress wearing Han fu ( Hanfs traditional clothes) with double eye lids.

http://news1.eastmoney.com/life/STARIMAGE/100003000008/2004112500001138.jpg

Japanese celebrity Yumi Adachi (ˆÀ达—C实 ), she has double eye lids.

http://www.ting163.com/singer/singerimg/95222kou.jpg[img]

Japanese celebrity Kou Shibasaki (ŽÄèK) she also has double eye lids.
[img]http://www.ting163.com/singer/singerimg/95222kou.jpg

Japanese celebrity Yonekura, Ryoko (•Ä仓™yŽq) Another Japanese celebrity who has double eye lids.
http://img.anyp.cn/top/200510/r01.jpg

What makes you think Japanese mainly have sunken eyes?

Anyway I never said gallh Japanese and Chinese look the same but we are not that far in appearance as you have argued.

Grimmo
Apr 4, 2006, 04:13
You are either too obssesed with this topic of scientific interest, or trying to show something:souka:

Most pictures you showed me are Yayoi-looking, and I showed to you the Jomon looking japanese people who has been around for centuries and ruling japan. As I said half of japanese are continental like you, and they have a relative similarity to south east/west sino-tibetan, and NE asian race.

If you don't want to diminish your credibility. you must distinguish the Jomon and Yayoi japanese.

Minty
Apr 4, 2006, 04:56
You are either too obssesed with this topic of scientific interest, or trying to show something
Most pictures you showed me are Yayoi-looking, and I showed to you the Jomon looking japanese people who has been around for centuries and ruling japan. As I said half of japanese are continental like you, and they have a relative similarity to south east/west sino-tibetan, and NE asian race.
If you don't want to diminish your credibility. you must distinguish the Jomon and Yayoi japanese.

:okashii: No, you are the one obsessed with this by flooding this thread with numerous pictures. I only start showing pictures to you because you want me to show you. I never said Chinese look like Jomon people.
But I do find Chinese people are not so different in appearance as Yayoi which is the majority of the Japanese people.
Anyway it is not as if though no Chinese have sunken eyes it is just not common at all.


Japanese gene stocks are, strictly speaking, from four major ethnicity:
1) Ainu and jomon, native islander
2) Yayoi: South west sibelian (including korean)
3) Yayoi: South east asian (including han chinese)
4) Polynesian:
(2) and (3) does make up approximately 50% of total japanese population, or could be even 60% given that this race is admixtured with (I) and (4).
So, if can generalize a bit,
(1)Ainu/jomon: 40%
(2)Chinese/Korea: 50%
(3)Polynesian: 10%

Grimmo
Apr 4, 2006, 07:02
No, you are the one obsessed with this by flooding this thread with numerous pictures. I only start showing pictures to you because you want me to show you.
I asked you because I was not sure if you got my point. As for the pictures, mine is more or so scientifically motivated with systematic sampling of nobility under certain parts of islands, whereas you merely cited anyone you think related to japanese randomly.

I never said Chinese look like Jomon people.
But I do find Chinese people are not so different in appearance as Yayoi which is the majority of the Japanese people.
That's good. At least, you are convinced that jomon are different from chinese.

Anyway it is not as if though no Chinese have sunken eyes it is just not common at all.
I am aware of that, but those having sunken eyes do resemble northern asian than jomon japanese. There must also be jomon bloods in chinese and korean too, because of the japanese colonization of some parts of korea and china. But those are not to be called han ethnicity, because they are in modern definition mixed.

Minty
Apr 5, 2006, 01:47
I asked you because I was not sure if you got my point. As for the pictures, mine is more or so scientifically motivated with systematic sampling of nobility under certain parts of islands, whereas you merely cited anyone you think related to Japanese randomly.

Oh please, this is the last time I will answer to you. I knew you would say my pictures are biased. Funny thing is when I first showed you pictures of what I considered as common Chinese you didnft complaint they were inaccurate because they looked different from what you considered as the appearances of Japanese.

But after I showed you pictures of what I considered as the appearances of Yayoi ( the majority ), as my pictures do looked similar to those pictures of what I considered as common Chinese, you started to question the reliability or validity of my pictures.

So it is you who are biased.

Even you choose famous pictures of Japanese nobles who are not likely to be mixed outside of Japanese ethnicities for a long time because of their laws, but it does not mean most Japanese look like that.

I had selected some celebrities or Chinese volunteers who look close to some of the Southern Chinese that I know who have not been mixed with goutsidersh in their blood, if the Pop stars have been mixed with others they are known, because they are famous, so people are curious where they came from. Examples are Takeshi Kaneshiro (Half Japanese Half Taiwanese) Michele Reis (Half Chinese from Macau and half Portuguese)cetc.


These samurai has a history of some up to 1000 years or more , and this makes me feel that they are representative of both ainu/jomon and yayoi japanese.

You are trying to show pictures of people who have strong lineage of both ainu/jomon and yayoi people where as I only am saying the Chinese people donft look that different to Japanese people and I meant the yayoi because they are the majority. I never indicated Okinawa people neither because they are the minority.


That's good. At least, you are convinced that jomon are different from Chinese

I never said they are the same people as Chinese, when I say Japanese peoplefs appearance are not that far from Chinese I meant the majority (the yayoi), you sir are putting words in my mouth.


I am aware of that, but those having sunken eyes do resemble northern Asian than jomon japanese. There must also be jomon bloods in chinese and korean too, because of the japanese colonization of some parts of korea and china. But those are not to be called Han ethnicity, because they are in modern definition mixed.

One of my deceased members of my family who was born before the Japanese invasion actually had sunken eyes.

But I would not link this to the Jomon because there are no records of my family ever been mixed with them. And no you donft get the see the pictures of my family; we are not your guinea pigs. Once again I never said anything about Japanese people are the same people as Chinese. I never said Jomon/Ainu/Okinawa people look like Chinese, I only said the majority (the yayoi people) are not so different in appearance to those of Chinese.

Grimmo
Apr 5, 2006, 02:02
Even you choose famous pictures of Japanese nobles who are not likely to be mixed outside of Japanese ethnicities for a long time because of their laws, but it does not mean most Japanese look like that.
And if my attempt was succesful, it's called the random sampling without bias within jomon population, or yayoi population. I was not interested in how all japanese looks like, but how the ancestor of japanese looks and where they came from which is the subject at hand.

I would very much appreciate if you can do the same, like posting the pictures of Confucius family.


Even you choose famous pictures of Japanese nobles who are not likely to be mixed outside of Japanese ethnicities for a long time because of their laws, but it does not mean most Japanese look like that.
Of course, 50% are enough to be considered "majority".
For example, han chinese is majority, because they comprise
90% of the total chinese population.


One of my deceased members of my family who was born before the Japanese invasion actually had sunken eyes.
But I would not link this to the Jomon because there are no records of my family ever been mixed with them.[\QUOTE]
Northern asian has sunken eyes and high nosebridge, but their distinct phenotypes are nothing similar to japanese.

[QUOTE]And no you donft get the see the pictures of my family; we are not your guinea pigs.
Come on, your friend is not guinea pig. I did not insult your friends or anything. You and your friend did it to prove your point, which only proved that chinese eyes are flat to the facial surfaces.

dangdaga
Apr 21, 2006, 18:39
you turn them upside down, it says on their feet : "MADE IN JAPAN".

Frank
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2250/60158873350585tu.jpg

Grimmo
Apr 29, 2006, 15:50
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/W-MAP.GIF

Grimmo
May 16, 2006, 08:16
Regarding origin of han chinese, the link is very informative. I hope this one will be spread to enlighten people.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10953&st=0

Blututh
May 16, 2006, 08:34
Here's the current theory of human migration patterns, commonly accepted by the scientific community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_migration

ippolito
May 29, 2006, 17:54
1 Korean
1 chinese
3 Japanese

wich is my score?
Ippolito










It is very difficult to determine southern and northern Chinese even the two are genetically quite different. I pick him because I have seen thousands of Chinese who look roughly like that. In the case of Chinese, it is not accomplishable to search for an individual model or an original as symbolic of her community, exclusively for potentially definite cultural factors.
What I don't agree on your arguments are the bits where you discussed about the double eye lids of East Asians. Are you certain when Japanese have double eye lids they are mostly of what your pictures suggested? It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.
If that is really the case why they couldnft tell I am not Japanese by just looking at me, I am sure other Chinese or Koreans, possibly even Vietnamese probably have experienced similar things.
http://www.naz.nevada.edu/Macau_University_2005/Resize%20of%20Rotation%20of%20DSC08408_small.JPG
I found a Chinese girl which has a rather typical Chinese face.
http://www.webplay.cn/UserFiles/Image/music/singer/ht/wangJie/logo_1.jpg
This is a Taiwanese singer, his face is quite typical of Han, Chinese.
http://saychinese.nazin.net/bbs/data/music/임현제.jpg
http://www.richiesfamily.com/view2004/2004-04-126.jpg
This is Ren Xian Qi, a Taiwanese singer.
I choose these two celebrities because they are not pretty boys, but rather average Chinese looking, they are famous for their talents not for their looks unlike some others.
http://myspace-121.vo.llnwd.net/00412/12/19/412409121_l.jpg
Another Chinese person with a common chinese face.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5379/496/1600/mongoloids.jpg
Out of these three pictures which one do you think is Japanese, Chinese and Korean?
Why don't you take a quiz to see whether you can determine who is who?
Below is the link to the quiz:
http://www.alllooksame.com/

ricecake
Jun 13, 2006, 13:37
Well, I think that two migrations happened in Japan. The first was by the Ainu, who arrived from Europe long before the Yayoi and Jomons from present day South Korea arrived, and drove the Ainu to Hokkaido and Okinawa, where they still reside today.

CORRECTION ..... Yayoi CAME FROM China's coastal region.

ricecake
Jun 13, 2006, 13:39
And as for the Okinawa thing, when the Yayoi and Jomon migrated to Japan, they pushed the Ainu from the main islands, they pushed them down to Okinawa Island, and up to Hokkaido.



Ancient Okinawa people WERE CHINESE.

ricecake
Jun 13, 2006, 14:07
Regarding origin of han chinese, the link is very informative. I hope this one will be spread to enlighten people.



Caught you ..... MC420 RAT ?

I knew you're A VERY DEDICATED Viet-troll make time wallpaper Asian forums with FICTITIOUS THEORY of Chinese and Viets same root crap talk.

Didn't CHF member Prince of South OUTSMARTED YOU by deciphered the " marker CLUES " in those so-called DNA report CONCLUDED NO GENETICS TIE BETWEEN your lowly Viets and Han Chinese.He and I communicated via several PM's,he also agreed you're A TROUBLEMAKER.He wrote in one PM,he ridiculed you with passages from Sun Zi's strategy of war philosophy.

You're A VICIOUS FELLA .... what's your problem with Chinese ? Are you in alot of psychological PAINS for Chinese rejection as " EQUALS ".If so,go seek a certified therapist or psychiatrist.

ricecake
Jun 13, 2006, 15:12
Han chinese is originated from south east and south west asia.
http://www.uglychinese.org/Chinese_migration.jpg


The UPPER ARROW denoted as " Han/Tibetan in Chinese script " CLEARLY POINTS TO upper Yellow River Basin where Hua-Xia tribes settled,with ORIGIN MIGRATION ROUTE THROUGH Tibet Kunlun mountains.These ancient tribal people were one of two early Han Chinese origins,along with other half-lings Dong-Yi of Shandong peninsula.Han Chinese race is MAINLY OF North Eastern Asian stock.Nowadays,Han IS A CULTURAL IDENTITY not a race.

The TWO LOWER ARROWS point to Yangtze River where Miao and Yao ancestors settled,plus various indigenous tribes made settlement in southern China what's today's China's Gunagxi/Canton/Fujian provinces PROBABLY CAME NORTHWARD THROUGH Vietnam or SE Asia.Those ancient southern China's indigenous tribes later labeled as Yue by Chinese historians MIGHT HAVE GENETICS TIE TO Viets,Thais,and Laotians with their languages in the Tai-Kadai group.

China's SW region has ABORIGINAL MINORITIES with some have blood-tie to Viets who are passionate searching for " southern Chinese blood connection ",this is where Vietnamese can find their long " lost siblings " if scientifically proven.

ricecake
Jun 13, 2006, 18:19
Regarding origin of han chinese, the link is very informative. I hope this one will be spread to enlighten people.


Of-course,you have a " hidden agenda " to spread otherwise you wouldn't surf this forum.

This is a thread on " origin of Japanese people ",WHY are here to talk about Han Chinese which is a " Heinz 57 " race with multiple origins and it's MORE A CULTURAL IDENTITY nowadays.

Do you have a full time job ?

You have UNHEALTHY INFACTUATION with " Han Chinese origin " ?

Are you a Vietmnamese of mixed-heritage with paternal Chinese ancestry,neglected by Chinese people don't accept you as " full Chinese " ?

caster51
Jun 13, 2006, 23:34
“ꕶl‚̓AƒWƒAl‚͐â‘΂Ɏ‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚È‚¢‚Æ‚³‚ê‚éB‚x‚` ‚o+ˆâ“`Žq‚ðŽ‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚邱‚Æ‚ª”»–¾‚µ‚Ä‚«‚Ä‚¢‚éB‚±‚ê‚ ͐æq‚µ‚½‚Æ‚¨‚è“ꕶl‚ª‚©‚Ȃ葁‚¢ŒÃ‚¢’iŠK‚Å”’lŽí‚ ©‚çŽ}•ª‚©‚ꂵ‚½ˆ×‚¾‚ÆŽv‚í‚ê‚éB–{“y“ú–{l‚Í‘S‘Ì‚Ì7 5“‚ÉYAP+ˆâ“`Žq‚ð‚•p“x‚ÉŽ‚lŽí‚ŁA‚±‚ê‚͏­”–¯‘ °‚ðœ‚¢‚ăAƒWƒA‚Å—BˆêB‚¿‚Ȃ݂ɓꕶl‚Ì––åá‚Å‚ ‚éƒ AƒCƒkl‚ÍYAP+ˆâ“`Žq‚ð88“Ž‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚éB‚±‚ÌŽ–‚©‚ç“ú– {l‘S‘Ì‚ª“ꕶ‚ÌŒŒ‚ðŒp‚¢‚Å‚¢‚邱‚Æ‚ª•ª‚©‚èA“ú–{l‚ ͊ç•t‚«ˆÈŠO‚É‚à’†‘l‚âŠØ‘l‚È‚Ç‘¼‚Ì“ŒƒAƒWƒAl‚É” ä‚ׁA‚©‚È‚èˆÙŽ¿‚È–¯‘°‚Å‚ ‚鎖‚ª”»–¾‚µ‚Ä‚«‚Ä‚¢‚é
http://bbs.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.php?board_id=thistory&page=7&nid=1682225
http://bbs.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.php?board_id=thistory&page=64&nid=1682289

Grimmo
Jun 15, 2006, 07:57
Caught you ..... MC420 RAT ?
I knew you're A VERY DEDICATED Viet-troll make time wallpaper Asian forums with FICTITIOUS THEORY of Chinese and Viets same root crap talk.

You're A VICIOUS FELLA .... what's your problem with Chinese ? Are you in alot of psychological PAINS for Chinese rejection as " EQUALS ".If so,go seek a certified therapist or psychiatrist.

I'm not MC420. He merely cited other guys' posts. As far as I read his posts in CHF, I do not see any evidences linking me with MC420. Anyway, you made an interesting all-by-single-person hypothesis, but I can attest that it is an incorrect assumption.

ricecake
Jun 15, 2006, 09:34
Oddly though,you purposedly didn't cite one CHF poster SMARTLY DECIPHERED " marker clues " in so-called DNA reports CONCLUDED NO GENETICS TIE between Han Chinese and Viets.

You aka MC420 thought you could " hoodwinked " Chinese on lack of English comprehension,instead that poster RIDICULED YOU with passages from SunZi's strategy of war philosophy.

Grimmo
Jun 15, 2006, 09:38
Oddly though,you purposedly didn't cite one CHF poster SMARTLY DECIPHERED " marker clues " in so-called DNA reports CONCLUDED NO GENETICS TIE between Han Chinese and Viets.
You aka MC420 thought you could " hoodwinked " Chinese on lack of English comprehension,instead that poster RIDICULED YOU with passages from SunZi's strategy of war philosophy.

What kind of science is that? you mean "NO" ties to chinese? Certainly, it sounds like a pseudo-science. Maybe, you can invite your masterful scientist to your JT forum, so hypes
can be properly challenged.

GablurW
Jul 9, 2006, 16:27
I think alot of confusion could be avoided if we distinguish between the type of Japanese, and use precise language..i.e. Yayoi-Japanese. Just as people distinguish between Malay-Indonesians and Chinese-Indonesians. I also observed here that people referring to the Han Chinese as though they are of uniform ethnicity. But the 'Han' Chineses truly homogeneous people? People from different parts of China seem to have distinguishing features. Further, the Chinese migrants in S-E asian countries, Hong Kong and Taiwan also look somewhat different from the majority of the mainland's regions from my personal experience, but that's going out of topic.

Pachipro
Jul 10, 2006, 05:15
Have not really researched the subject thoroughly, but here is an interesting theory that you might find interesting concerning "Who Are The Japanese?" (http://asis.com/~stag/japanese.html)

Any thoughts?

GablurW
Jul 10, 2006, 15:20
Can't see any resemblance between Jews and modern Japanese, which looks more similar to other neighboring east asians.

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 11:51
I think there are@so many middle east or mexican :p looking peoples in japan.
japanese ppl is basicaly thickly haired more than other east asian
If the Japanese has mustache and beard , it is likely to understand clearly.

ricecake
Jul 11, 2006, 12:10
Indeed,there are many illegal Mexicans living in California claimed " Japanese blood :cool: " relation with understanding of their Aztec ancestors left ASIA CONTINENT over 10,000 years ago.



Mexicans can go to Japan fill those 3D jobs plus a chance to rekindle " special ancestral roots " :lol: with Japanese people,they're quite hard working we can ensure you on that.

GablurW
Jul 12, 2006, 01:27
An interesting read about the Hakka ethnic group living in China. http://www.amoymagic.com/FJAdv/Roundhouses.htm

The relationship between the Hakkas and the Japanese was also echoed here.

Also, http://www.cbs.org.tw/english/hakka/p42.html

GablurW
Jul 12, 2006, 01:29
http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/history.htm#Hakka%20and%20She%20people%20in%20Fuji an
Comments? Further these Hakka (Guest/Migrating People orginated from Northen China) people have contributed significantly to the population of the Chineses people now living all over SE-Asia, Taiwan, HongKong, and many now reside in the Fujian/Guandong region of China and they have only relatively recently been accepted as part of the Han Chineses cultural group.


Hakka and Japanese Culture

Hakka culture might be a key component of Japanese culture.
It is hard not to notice that spoken Hakka dialect/language and Japanese language are closer than Mandarin and Japanese. Certain Japanese also resemble Shandong Chinese, distinct from the Ainu features of Hokkaido. Some Japanese friends point out that Hakkas look like Japanese. In fact the strong adherance to tradition and stubbornness are very characteristic of both Hakka and Japanese. The following is an account that could provide some support to the link between Hakka and Japanese culture.
Qin dynasty, Xu Fu, Yamoto, and Yayoi culture
The earliest record of Chinese travelling to Japan was in Qin dynasty when Qin Shihuangdi sent Xu Fu with a company of 3000 boys and girls to obtain longevity medicine. They started out from Shandong and reached what they called Peng Lai (Ying Zhou) which is Kyushu today. In Kyushu, there are significant traces of Xu Fu and his company including Xu Fu's tomb. Xu Fu's landing place should be around Fukuoka (The Hill of Fu), which was named in memory of him.
To be entrusted by Qin Shihuangdi with such an enormous task at that time, Xu Fu at 36 years of age was obviously a very capable person who was also higher up in the official rank. One theory is that he actually used this proposal to leave Qin. He brought a whole fleet of ships fully loaded with all kinds of supplies. It is also clear that Xu Fu had travelled back to China more than once to gather supplies. So, likely he brought more people over for the long trip. The crew he brought over stayed in Japan and became the Yamato clan. That is why some Japanese look like Shandong people, which should be Han/Hakka in genetic trait.
The history of Japan is very vague as to how the empire started. Only legends exist. Japanese culture has two major components: The Jomon culture and the Yayoi culture. The native Jomon culture was based on hunting and fishing, dating back to 10,000 years ago.
The Yayoi culture, which suddenly emerged around 250 BC - 250 AD as a very advanced culture, bears all the marks of Qin/Han culture including paddy rice cultivation, bronze mirror, coins, bronze weapons, bells, etc. The three major symbols of the Japanese Kingdom : bronze mirror, sword, and the royal seal stone are exactly the same as the Qin symbols. With no archaeological precedent of a gradual evolution, Yayoi culture has to be introduced from outside, and the most probable source was China. The Yayoi culture spread northeastward towards the Kanto plain and eventually became the mainstream of the Japanese culture.
Japan's celebration of the "birthyear" of Shen Wu Tian Huang (Ten-no) was held every 50 years (last held 1930 and 1980) as a very sacred ceremony simultaneously in a memorial celebration of Xu Fu. The beginning of Shen Wu Tian Huang was in the same time period of Xu Fu's landing in 219 BC. So these two are too coincidental not to be related. Shen Wu Tian Huang is supposed to be the Father of the Japanese kingdom. The celebration actually could be for the birthyear of the Empire rather than a person.
Did Xu Fu start out from Shandong or Guangdong?
There is also a hypothesis that Xu Fu started out from Guangdong because the spoken Japanese sounds like Guangdong dialect more than Mandarin. However, Qin Shihuangdi's active area was in the north. It would be hard to trust someone so far from the south. The climbing of Taishan (Shandong) by Qin Shihuangdi was well documented by Li Si's stone engravings on Taishan. So, Shandong is a place frequented by QSHD. It is natural that he might want to watch the ships set sail to fetch the longevity medicine too. As pointed out by a netter friend, Shandong dialect actually has some similarities to Hakka (see language page). If Hakka was indeed the official language commonly used in Qin-Tang dynasties, then that was the language Xu Fu and his crew spoke. So, it would be natural for the Japanese spoken language to bear some resemblance of Hakka.
For detailed evidence of Xu Fu's excursion to Japan, please consult a book by Yu Jin Hong : "Xu2 Fu2 Dong1 Du4 Zhi1 Mi2 Xin1 Tan4" (A New Study on the Riddle of the East Expedition by Xu Fu), Jiangsu People's Press. 1990.
Buddhism, Wei - Tang period
Buddhism was spread to Japan during Wei-Jin and Tang period. There were more and more interactions between the two countries. In Wei Zhi (history of Wei) the word "Wo" (Japanese "Wa", Mandarin "He") first appeared to represent the Japanese kingdom.
Hakka language was highly likely the official language in Tang dynasty (see language section about Tang poems). In Japan, much of the government bureaucratic system, including the names of bureaus still use the system developed from Qin-Han to Tang period.
Examples of ancient Han/Hakka culture and Japanese culture
Japanese culture retains many of the ancient Chinese custom including deep bowing, seating on tatami with low table (only after Song did high chairs become popular in China), the women's dress and headdress, the way pipa ( a pluck string musical instrument, Japanese call it biwa) is held at an angle rather than upright. These can be easily verified in the murals of Dun Huang, which were done from Wei-Jin to Tang. In terms of calligraphy, the early Japanese masters favored Wang Xi-Zhi (Jin) while the contemporaries follow Yan Zhen-qing (Tang).
Please see a copy of Wang Xi-Zhi's "Lanting Prologue" in my own calligraphy (142K), or a a section of larger size (67K). I have also translated Lan Ting Xu (Prologue for the the Gathering at Orchid Pavillion") into English.
Because Xu Fu went to Japan prior to the purge of Confucianism by Qin Shihuangdi, in some ways the earlier Han/Hakka culture was preserved in the original form more so in Japan.
So, Hakka has significant influence on Japanese culture.
The following is a letter from a Japanese friend supporting the similarity of Hakka and Japanese characteristics.
From [email protected] Feb 13 09:41:21 1996
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:12:37 +0900
From: Kobo Inamura
To: "'[email protected]'"
Subject: Hakka culture and Japan
Dear Sir,
I read your article on the Hakka Home page with enthusiasm.
It is true that the characteristics of the independent, but probably the
most conservative minded or stubbornness to preserve one's culture are held
much in common by Hakka people and Japanese.
I met several students in Japan, who happened to come from Mainland China,
but their behavior seems to be different from ideology indoctrinated
students from Beijing.
The architecture of the round big house tradition still remains in this
country, even though fading out quickly.
I wish your study of the relations between Hakka and Japan further develop
into the future.
At least I have never heard of Hakka persons who did not feel comfortable to
stay in Japan and vice versa.
Probably one more thing in common is that they(Hakka and Japanese) are the
most enthusiastic book readers. Do you know any country where so much number
of books and titles are published? Japanese are reading books even in the
crowded trains.
Sincerely yours,
Kobo Inamura
First posted December 5, 1995.
All rights reserved. S. L. Lee. 1995.
#top

GablurW
Jul 12, 2006, 12:51
The "theory" on Hun origin of Hakka was based on very fragmentary blood typing and DNA analysis done by Japanese and Russian researchers.

According to DNA typing by Hideo Matsumoto (1966) who gathered blood from China, Korea, Rusia, Taiwan, and Southeast Asia countries and found the folloiwng: [extracted from Kiang's book]
&iexcl;@

GM genes
&iexcl;@ AG AxG ABST AFBB
North Mongoloids (Koreans, Japanese, Hakka) 45% 15% 25% 15%
Malaysian, Polynesian, Southern Chinese

10%
5% 85%
Burma, Assam, Tibetan, Nepal, Malayo-Polynesian ~0% ~100%

The author thus concludes that Hakkas like Koreans and Japanese were from Baikal Lake as a subgroup of the Altaic people.

ricecake
Jul 12, 2006, 13:27
Funny,Hakka people have blood-tie to Koreans and Japanese.:souka:

konnyaku
Jul 13, 2006, 00:48
...or is there something else that hinders her power of discernment? :p

I'm a white American guy, and even I can tell Japanese people apart from other Asians. To put it bluntly, most Japanese persons look like the hybrid offspring of a pair consisting of an East Asian and a southern European (Greek or Jew?). That's not to say that the Japanese are closely related to any extant European population; in fact, I am almost certain that they are very distant from each other in terms of line of descent. The fact remains, however, that morphologically at least, Japanese people have a relatively high incidence of certain physical traits that are extremely rare among other East Asian populations. I think this is likely to be due to "shared retention" by the ancestors of the Europeans and the Japanese aborigines of a certain suite of physical traits that was typical of the original Eurasians, while the ancestors of continental East Asians underwent several severe changes to their skeletal (and especially facial) morphology during their most recent stage of evolution. This scenario seems to be supported by the fact that ancient skeletons of modern humans found anywhere in Eurasia, and even the oldest human skeletons found in the Americas, all appear to possess rather Caucasoid morphology, and skeletons that exhibit the prototypical features of the Mongoloid race appear only later in the archaeological record.

I rarely have any difficulty distinguishing Japanese from Chinese or Koreans, but the continentals can be a troublesome bunch.

The unusual features of the Japanese that set them apart clearly in most cases from any of the continental East Asians are:

1) Japanese tend to have a more pronounced facial topography (i.e., a rather "bumpy" or "projecting" look to the face, such as around the eyebrows, rather than the smooth and flat contours of Chinese or Koreans)

2) Japanese tend to have a more perceptually salient nose. This can be either more salient in simply the degree of projection from the surface of the face, or more salient in terms of the total volume of the nose (i.e., including the width). In general, Japanese seem to exhibit a much greater variety of nose sizes and shapes than do continental East Asians, and I have met many Japanese who even have "bumpy" noses with several bulges and constrictions in the contour of the nose, as I have otherwise only observed in Europeans. Chinese and Koreans appear to have only smooth-contoured noses, regardless of whether they are flat and broad (as is common in southern Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) or narrow and slightly projecting. This feature is particularly relevant for distinguishing Japanese men from Chinese or Korean men, because women of every nationality tend to be rather paedomorphic when it comes to their noses.

3) Japanese people tend to have a diminutive lower facial region. They often have small jaws, which may be the direct cause of their propensity for having poor alignment of the teeth. Continental East Asians, on the other hand, seem to have huge jaws, flaring malars (cheekbones), and a generally large and imposing lower face when viewed from a Caucasian perspective.

4) Japanese people often have rather translucent skin, similar to that of Europeans, when they are not tanned. Therefore, Japanese people often have rosy cheeks and a generally healthy-looking complexion. When they do tan, they tend to take on a reddish-brown color. The Chinese and Koreans, on the other hand, are almost all cream- or beige-colored ("pasty") from the start, and they have completely opaque skin, so that it is impossible for them to have rosy cheeks and they always look sort of sickly unless they are tanned, in which case they take on a yellow-brown color.

As for distinguishing Chinese and Koreans by sight, I think it is quite difficult, but not impossible. They both have a propensity for big faces with a smoothly rounded outline, but Koreans tend to be more extreme in the width of their faces, so that they often have a nearly circular look, whereas Chinese tend to have more elliptical faces when viewed directly from the front. Chinese also more frequently have double eyelids and larger eyes that seem to bulge out of their (flat) sockets. Korean people tend to have very small eyes and no eyelid creases. Among East Asians, Chinese people also have a peculiar tendency towards prognathism, so that they often have bulging mouths that look somewhat reminiscent of black Africans. The big, bulgy eyes and mouth that appear so frequently among Chinese people seem to me to suggest some sort of affinity with populations of Southeast Asia. Also, I'm not totally sure about this, but I have a hunch that Koreans more frequently have a sort of oily shine to their skin, whereas Chinese people's skin tends to be more dull and dry-looking.

ricecake
Jul 13, 2006, 01:22
Some Japanese scientists discovered a population of tattoo'ed indigenous :cool: SE Asian tribe in Burma in the 1980's,proclaimed these people are Japanese's ancestors.:wave:

caster51
Jul 13, 2006, 11:42
interesting story about •¼—§_‹{(Heitate-jingu kumamoto)
http://www.eva.hi-ho.ne.jp/suruga/heitategoopage.htm
‚U‚O‚O‚O”N‘O‚©‚ç‚ ‚Á‚½•¶Žš‚ō‚Ü‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Æ‚¢‚¢‚Ü‚·
@@@•\F@gƒAƒ\ƒqƒmƒIƒIƒJƒ~h|||ˆ¢‘h“ú‚Ì‘å_ i”ì_‚̏‘i‘Δn‚̈¢”ä—¯•¶Žš(_‘㕶Žšj‚Æ“¯‘Ì‚Å‹L Ú
http://www.kumashoko.or.jp/soyou/spot/heiritsu.htm
http://judith1c.exblog.jp/i11/
Judith Carpenter, a famous psychics healer, She has been participating in the festival for more than ten years .

It is said that the Heitate Shrine has a duty to care for the peace of the world. The shrine is the keeper of the efive masksf and each year on August 23 a ceremony is held for world peace.
Since the ceremonies have been public, I have represented the white mask - one day we all look forward to the day all masks may be represented for peace.
FIVE MASK MEANING: Five coloured people to gather at the Shrine so everyone is one.
http://www.judithcarpenter.com/gallery.html

•¼—§_‹{‚Í‹ãB‚Ì‚Ö‚»‚Ɉʒu‚·‚éA‚“VŒ´_˜b”­Ë‚Ì’n ‚Å‚·B‘¾ŒÃ‚̐̂©‚琢ŠEl—Þ‚Ì‘c_‚ðâJ‚Á‚½‚Æ‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢ ‚Ü‚·B‚»‚µ‚āA‚±‚ê‚ðŽÀØ‚·‚鐔X‚̏؂̈ê‚‚Ƃµ‚āu ŒÜF_–ʁv‚ƌĂ΂ê‚éA¢ŠElŽí‚Ì‘c_‚ðŒ`‚Ç‚Á‚½–ؐ» ‚Ì’¤‘œ–Ê‚ª•ò”[‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚Ü‚·B‚±‚̌ܐF_–ʂ̌ܐF‚Ƃ́A¢ŠE‚ܑ̌ål Ží‚Ì”§‚̐F‚ð•\‚µ‚½‚à‚̂ŁA‚»‚Ì‹NŒ¹‚Æ‚³‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Ì‚ª A‰©l(ƒAƒWƒAŒn)‚Å‚·B‚»‚µ‚āA‚»‚ÌŒã”Þ‚ç‚ÌŽq‘·‚ª¢ ŠEŠe’n‚ɍL‚ª‚èA‚»‚Ì•—“y‚â‹CŒó‚Ȃǂɉe‹¿‚ðŽó‚¯AÔ l(ƒlƒCƒeƒBƒuEƒAƒƒŠƒJƒ“)AÂl(ƒAƒWƒA“ì•”)A”’l (”’lŒn)A•l(•lŒn)‚Ö‚Æ”h¶‚µ‚½‚Æ‚¢‚í‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚Ü‚·
ŒÃ‘ãƒGƒWƒvƒgAƒ†ƒ_ƒ„l(ˆêà‚ł̓‚[ƒ[)‚É‚æ‚Á‚ĉ^‚΂ꂽu…‚̋ʁv‚à•ò”[:okashii: B
they said "All races have spreaded from here". :relief: :relief:
japanese Kabbalah
http://www006.upp.so-net.ne.jp/yuyumuso/uuhasso/okuhito/oku2/qbl-index.html

Minty
Jul 14, 2006, 07:55
...or is there something else that hinders her power of discernment? :p
.
Mind you the Japanese themselves can't tell I am not Japanese. It is them who mistaken me as one of them. I often get them approaching me because they thought I am Japanese. Most of the time I can tell Japanese, Korean and Chinese apart, I never approached a Chinese who is Japanese before.

You may be able to tell the different East Asians apart but many other white people can't, my experiences tell me that.

Color red
Oct 27, 2006, 17:05
...or is there something else that hinders her power of discernment? :p
I'm a white American guy, and even I can tell Japanese people apart from other Asians. To put it bluntly, most Japanese persons look like the hybrid offspring of a pair consisting of an East Asian and a southern European (Greek or Jew?). That's not to say that the Japanese are closely related to any extant European population; in fact, I am almost certain that they are very distant from each other in terms of line of descent. The fact remains, however, that morphologically at least, Japanese people have a relatively high incidence of certain physical traits that are extremely rare among other East Asian populations. I think this is likely to be due to "shared retention" by the ancestors of the Europeans and the Japanese aborigines of a certain suite of physical traits that was typical of the original Eurasians, while the ancestors of continental East Asians underwent several severe changes to their skeletal (and especially facial) morphology during their most recent stage of evolution. This scenario seems to be supported by the fact that ancient skeletons of modern humans found anywhere in Eurasia, and even the oldest human skeletons found in the Americas, all appear to possess rather Caucasoid morphology, and skeletons that exhibit the prototypical features of the Mongoloid race appear only later in the archaeological record.
I rarely have any difficulty distinguishing Japanese from Chinese or Koreans, but the continentals can be a troublesome bunch.
The unusual features of the Japanese that set them apart clearly in most cases from any of the continental East Asians are:
1) Japanese tend to have a more pronounced facial topography (i.e., a rather "bumpy" or "projecting" look to the face, such as around the eyebrows, rather than the smooth and flat contours of Chinese or Koreans)
2) Japanese tend to have a more perceptually salient nose. This can be either more salient in simply the degree of projection from the surface of the face, or more salient in terms of the total volume of the nose (i.e., including the width). In general, Japanese seem to exhibit a much greater variety of nose sizes and shapes than do continental East Asians, and I have met many Japanese who even have "bumpy" noses with several bulges and constrictions in the contour of the nose, as I have otherwise only observed in Europeans. Chinese and Koreans appear to have only smooth-contoured noses, regardless of whether they are flat and broad (as is common in southern Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) or narrow and slightly projecting. This feature is particularly relevant for distinguishing Japanese men from Chinese or Korean men, because women of every nationality tend to be rather paedomorphic when it comes to their noses.
3) Japanese people tend to have a diminutive lower facial region. They often have small jaws, which may be the direct cause of their propensity for having poor alignment of the teeth. Continental East Asians, on the other hand, seem to have huge jaws, flaring malars (cheekbones), and a generally large and imposing lower face when viewed from a Caucasian perspective.
4) Japanese people often have rather translucent skin, similar to that of Europeans, when they are not tanned. Therefore, Japanese people often have rosy cheeks and a generally healthy-looking complexion. When they do tan, they tend to take on a reddish-brown color. The Chinese and Koreans, on the other hand, are almost all cream- or beige-colored ("pasty") from the start, and they have completely opaque skin, so that it is impossible for them to have rosy cheeks and they always look sort of sickly unless they are tanned, in which case they take on a yellow-brown color.
As for distinguishing Chinese and Koreans by sight, I think it is quite difficult, but not impossible. They both have a propensity for big faces with a smoothly rounded outline, but Koreans tend to be more extreme in the width of their faces, so that they often have a nearly circular look, whereas Chinese tend to have more elliptical faces when viewed directly from the front. Chinese also more frequently have double eyelids and larger eyes that seem to bulge out of their (flat) sockets. Korean people tend to have very small eyes and no eyelid creases. Among East Asians, Chinese people also have a peculiar tendency towards prognathism, so that they often have bulging mouths that look somewhat reminiscent of black Africans. The big, bulgy eyes and mouth that appear so frequently among Chinese people seem to me to suggest some sort of affinity with populations of Southeast Asia. Also, I'm not totally sure about this, but I have a hunch that Koreans more frequently have a sort of oily shine to their skin, whereas Chinese people's skin tends to be more dull and dry-looking.
This is a very insightful comment. I am amazed how you can figure out all these details despite your white background.

Marky
Jul 25, 2007, 03:33
Hmmm..... Quick Question, even though I am new here, I was wondering, who exactly are the Ainu/Jomon? Were they descendants of a group of Africans (proto-negroid or negroid) that settled in South Asia and then traveled to Japan?

Second, about the features of Japanese folks. I understand some (not all) have Caucasoid features. But how much of the features and how frequent?

Third, I know this is off topic, but in regards to China (and well Japan too), were the first dynasties/ruling parties/governments Black?

Chidoriashi
Jul 25, 2007, 08:53
Marky> you are about 9 months off topic.... you might want to start a new thread.

Naito-Kori
Aug 1, 2007, 06:43
The Japanese origin's are from Africa some 1000years ago,
The first people that left Africa were from East Africa.
skeleton remains were said to reseblem Negroid, from Cave Mintojawa.
These findings cannot be found in any school or Library.
Modern human's evolved from a single Afrikan origin's as opposed to the multiple origin's. These 65 branches of Afrikan race share similar DNA mutation with the Chinese and Koreans.
DNA that provide information about GENETIC -variations among people
were examineded, and they revealed that all Afrikan's and Japanese have
A great deal in common genetically.
This research broke the theory that Ainu were the ancestor's of the Japanese.
The slanted eye is a trait which came from the Afrikan's.
This facial type is typically Negritic, common racial characterstic generally found in east afrika. At the bottom of this is the ancestor of the Japanese.

allq
Oct 4, 2007, 05:06
The Japanese originated from Korea. This is borne by western research studies on genetics, cultural and linguistics which all agree on the Korean origination hypothesis, although Japanese and Chinese researchers themselves have a personal bias and hidden agenda and would rather obscure this tie with Korea. But the relationship is obvious first from the similarity of the language---as someone pointed out earlier, Korean sounds like another dialect of Japnese---to even anyone who is unfamiliar with any studies. Here are some more facts: 1) The first horses that appeared on Japanese islands came from Korea 2000 years ago. 2) Korea and Japanese grammar is nearly identical. 3) Kyushu which is closest to the Southern tip of Korea is hypothesized as the place as where Japanese cultural bloom began because it is the area in which you will find the oldest and culturally significant early Japanese artifacts. As mentioned, Kyushu is closest to the Southern tip of Korean. The early Japanese artifacts unearthed are identical to artifacts unearthed in the area of Southern Korea in the same time period

I would recommend the book Korean Impact on Japanese Culture: Japan's Hidden History by Jon Covell and Alan Covell for those interested in this topic.

caster51
Oct 4, 2007, 11:54
korean does not have a DNA YAP+ at all that 50&#37; of japanese men have.


I would recommend the book Korean Impact on Japanese Culture: Japan's Hidden History by Jon Covell and Alan Covell for those interested in this topic.

they are neither archeologist nor histrian.
they are art scholar............

tokapi
Oct 4, 2007, 12:21
The Japanese originated from Korea.



http://www.hanbooks.com/hanofkor.html

The Koreans originated from China & Mongolia :blush:

allq
Oct 4, 2007, 15:48
I've never claimed Koreans are identical in DNA as Japanese. It is obvious that Japanese are a mix of races like Jomon and Yayoi which is the prevailing view among scholars. Japanese have multiple origins including Malay/Polynesian, Ainu. Still, it is interesting that when you speak about Japanese early history, linguistics and such it's synominous with Korean, such as the example of the first horse ever appearing on the Japanese islands came from Korea thousands of years ago. While the horerider theory of the 1960's developed by a Japanese was never fully tested because there was no way to examine DNA at the time, modern DNA studies verified that the first horses were Korean. So the horses which is depicted in Kurosawa samarai movies came from Korea interestingly enough. As any Japanese historian would know, horses were held in high esteem in early Japanese history FYI.

Other facts: the reverential Nihongi which is the holy grail of early Japanese (or history of how Japan first began) history revered by Japanese historians is written by a Korean. In the Nihongi, there are hundreds of entries about trade and exchange with Korea which is meticulously recorded, whereas curiously hardly any mention (zero?) of any such exchange with China.

Carter and Covell do an excellent job of examining early Japanese art and architecture and finding its exact replica in early Korean art, especially of the Paekje era. The similarities are undeniable.

"The Koreans originated from China & Mongolia "---Uh proof? You've linked to a book but there is no mention in the link of your assertion that "Koreans originated from China & Mongolia." Phony link, don't you think? The link is abit phony like your post?


Koreans did not originate from China. Koreans probably confuse Mongolia with Siberia since that they are in the same region. The prevailing view among scholars is that Koreans originated from the Siberian region---and this similarity is borne out by physical distinctiveness of Korean appearance in terms of height, stocky build etc. which is obviously very different from Chinese who generally do not have the same build or look. Koreans do share some genetic similarities with people of Manchurian region because Koreans originally lived in that region, not that they originated there, before migrating further south to the peninsula which is consistent with the history recorded for the Korean kingdoms, Paekje, Silla Koguryo.

Posts so far proves my point that there are personal biases among Chinese and Japanese to obscure any relationship. Still, the predominance of evidence is irrefutable and there are countless scientific study after study on this topic (in diverse fields like linguistic, genetic, cultural, historic, archeological) which come out with the same exact conclusion. A simple search on the internet would suffice for any unbiased research on this topic, preferably one from a westerner.

kireikoori
Oct 5, 2007, 00:53
The Koreans originated from China & Mongolia :blush:
Mostly Mongolia. I agree with allq that they are more Siberian than they are Chinese.

allq
Oct 8, 2007, 22:16
^^^Koreans do not originate from China. This is borne out in a number of DNA studies which shows that Korean DNA is distinctive from Chinese DNA, hence indicating different origins. To anyone unfamiliar with these studies, it would still be obvious from the fact that Koreans and Chinese do not even look similar.

tokapi
Oct 8, 2007, 22:44
S Korean actress Lee Young Ae

http://images.google.com/images?q=lee+young+ae+&hl=en&rlz=1T4SKPB_enUS232US233&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

Taiwan's Chinese actress

http://www.brigittelin.com/GeneralPostcards.htm

http://www.brigittelin.com/PhotoGallery4.htm

http://www.brigittelin.com/PhotoGallery5.htm


Mongolian or Siberian looking :P ?

allq
Oct 9, 2007, 01:23
^^^It's quite pathetic that you post pics of actresses to prove your idiotic case. Also, aren't you the one who provided that phony link hanbooks.com for your flimsy case that Koreans originate from China? Please do not waste bandwith with your fake and misleading posts to spread your sinocentric propanda which proves nothing.

Also, every researcher knows that you need DNA to prove for any case concerning origins. DNA studies all confirm that Korean and Chinese have different origins and Koreans are NOT related to Chinese.

There is solid DNA evidence that Chinese have origins in SE asia. Also, many Chinese I've seen do look amazingly like Vietnamese. I can't tell them apart most of the time. In fact, Chinese and Vietnamese and Thai languages sound extremely similar, all being tonal languages. Thai language supposedly originated in China.

tokapi
Oct 9, 2007, 03:19
"The Koreans originated from China & Mongolia "---Uh proof? You've linked to a book but there is no mention in the link of your assertion that "Koreans originated from China & Mongolia."



http://www.hanbooks.com/hanofkor.html

This book is an official publication,a page map with 3 ancient migration arrows from China's Shandong Peninsula,Mongolia & China's NE region.

by Korean Overseas Culture and Information Service

size: 24.5x17cm 652pages

allq
Oct 9, 2007, 04:02
^^^^ Uh where? I've never heard of this study or theory. If you actually click on the link there is no mention whatsoever any kind of migration flow. Also, the Korean Overseas Culture and Information Service as genetic institute? It sounds more like an institute promoting tourism.

As to Chinese origins, I paste below a summary of a recent study by reknowned Chinese genetic Li Jin, who is a very famous genetist who studied the whole Chinese population. This is the prevalent view as to Chinese DNA and origins. Obviously Chinese and SE asians are closely related:

Saturday, July 15, 2000


Modern humans, or Homo sapiens, might migrate from Africa into China by way of Southeast Asia between 18,000 years and 60,000 years ago, researchers say.

This latest research finding by Chinese scientists and their international colleagues concluded that modern humans might have moved from Africa to China replacing Mono erectus (archaic upright- walking human beings) there to become the ancestors of the country 's modern humans.

The conclusion is based on the comparison and analysis of Y- chromosome DNA using samples of the extant 88 populations living in East Asia, Southeast Asia and the Oceania, says Li Jin, one of the Chinese researchers of the study "Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project."

Li Jin is a professor of both the National Human Genome Center in Shanghai and the Institute of Genetics of Fudan University.

Scientists found that the variations of Y-chromosome in north China are derived from those in south China, a result proved as that a small number of settlers of African origin moved to northern China due to the hurdle of the mighty Yangtze River. And Polynesians, who live in the islands in the Pacific Ocean, are found to have different Y-chromosome to Taiwanese, forcing scientists to reconsider the hypothsis that Polynesians were descendants of ancestral Taiwanese aborigines.

As a whole, nearly all Y-chromosome variations in East Asia and the Oceania could be found among those in Southeast Asia, adds Li Jin.

So, the findings also indicate that modern humans migrated from Africa to Southeast Asia nearly 60,000 years ago.

Subsequently, the migrants were believed to have headed for two directions: one moved northwards to south China and then spread to the country's northern areas by crossing the Yangtze River, and the other went to Indonesia and ultimately reached the Oceania.

The Y-chromosome research is an important method for tracing the human migration patterns and the findings make clear the relationships between people groups in Southeast Asia, and East Asia and the Oceania, says another major Chinese researcher Jiayou Chu, who is a professor of the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences.

This latest research result was published in today's issue of the Proceeding of National Academy of Sciences, a U.S. journal.

The finding means that scientists have made headway in the pursuit of human origin, though the conclusion that modern Chinese human beings migrated from Africa still remains controversial, says academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences Zhu Chen, who is also the director of Shanghai's National Human Genome Center.

In 1987, the U.S.'s scientists brought forward a theory based on mitochondrial DNA evidence that all human beings originated in Africa and later migrated to other corners of the globe. In the intentional academic circles, few arguments were raised about the theory that all palaeoanthropic mankind originated in Africa. Meanwhile, the scientists note that fossils of Peking Man who lived 500,000 years ago and Yuanmao Man over 1.7 million years ago were found in China, but both lack any direct hereditary connection with modern Chinese man.

There is a disconnection or "faultage" in fossils of palaeoanthropic Chinese who lived some 60,000 to 100,000 years ago, researchers say.

Coinciding with the fossil record, Chinese scientists discovered last year that primitive elements of DNA found in modern Chinese are identical with those found in Africans.

The discovery has provided weighty evidence on the genetic basis for the theory that modern Chinese were not evolved from the archaic upright-walking human beings in China but originated in Africa.

caster51
Oct 11, 2007, 10:23
Japanese Genetic Roots: Ainu and Native South Americans

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=JFQlIp8VvFU
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=CguNE9vcd-8
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=wSPmpK5OR3M

tokapi
Oct 11, 2007, 10:30
More colorful flavors to Japanese origin :cool:

I think a good percentage of modern day Japanese have European & Middle Eastern MALE ANCESTORS,they replaced the ones from ancient times :cool:

These Japanese's forebears NOT originated from Korea or China :blush:

allq
Oct 12, 2007, 06:07
You actually have ZERO knowledge of genetics as proven by your posts. Are you like 14? Japanese most certainly do not have European or Middle Eastern roots. Maybe they WISH to have those roots--but all you have to walk around the streets of Tokyo to notice that Japanese look and are 100&#37; asian.

As to Japanese having Ainu roots, maybe like 5%; they certainly do not comprise a significant portion of the population and their contribution to the Japanese gene pool is certainly overplayed by the Japanese to obscure the "asianess" of their background to tie them in somehow with European. Their contribution to the culture and genepool of Japan is minimal at best. And even any caucasian would laugh at the notion that Japanese are somehow a hebrew tribe like the 12 tribes of Israel or some such nonsense.

Japanese are genetically a mix of Korean, Malay/Polynesian and Ainu.

Many Japanese however like to obscure their background by coming up with ridiculous unsupportable theory such as they have austronesian roots or their ancestors are from South America or some such nonsense, anything but to admit the most plainly obvious.

pugtm
Oct 12, 2007, 07:15
now look who is speaking out of ignorance

allq
Oct 12, 2007, 07:40
Uh I think you are very ignorant.
Are you contending that the Japanese is related to Hebrew or some such nonsensical claim?
If so, do you know of linguistic, archeolgocal, genetic study which proves that Japanese are indeed a lost semitic tribe. I thought not.
I am merely repeating what I read on linguistic study forum in which a Japanese made the comment that they are one of the lost tribes of Israel and a bunch of linguists (whom I assume were caucasian) attacked him/her because the theory as unscientific and the person making it to be "immature" among other nasty comments. I think linguists take their field quite seriously to consider their field a science and do suffer flakey comments like that very easily. Some Japanese seem to take the theory quite seriously though. Below is the link. The discussion was very interesting.

forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-2562520253c/t-195192.html

pugtm
Oct 12, 2007, 08:02
according to some scholars there are links apparently. just because i dont sit around the whole day and read linguistic abstracts and post them doesn't mean they cant exist. many connections between the far east and the middle east have been found. and im not saying that japanese are all descendants of jews. they are in fact closely related to koreans but that a lost tribe did at one time come to japan i think it is highly likely. and by the way i dont see you putting any evidence of your theories either.

allq
Oct 12, 2007, 08:18
I don't sit around all day "reading abstracts" and post them. I am new here. I hardly post in this forum. There are dozens of SOUND and REPUTABLE scientific articles on the theories I proposed. You need only have to do simple search on the internet as I've mentioned in my previous post.

tokapi
Oct 12, 2007, 08:21
Eh ... :?

Some S Koreans have excessive thirst for Japanese affinity :okashii:

pugtm
Oct 12, 2007, 08:30
although i would like a lot more research done on the subject(maybe genetic) go search online and you will also find research that says that some of the lost tribes came to japan. though mainly anthropological in nature. And its good to have an open mind in any case.
that japanese have epicanthic folds no one is questioning. and i dont think any of us really care except in an abstract curious way who came to japan in ancient times. its just a passing curiosity. we all have the same roots if you go back far enough. though why you are so vehement about a subject like this i cant really tell. its not like we are slandering your family tree.

allq
Oct 12, 2007, 08:40
Eh...or shall we say...some Chinese have an excessive thirst for Korean affinity......as well as Japanese. Or some people who need to chime in "Chinese" every 5 seconds to unrelated topics and without scientific proof. You're posts are kinda pathetic.

I don't think a mere 6 posts on a Japanese forum counts as sufficient for someone who has an Japanese obsession.... Genetics/Linguistics/ is my interest. I don't need to apologize for it.

tokapi
Oct 12, 2007, 08:48
someone who has an Japanese obsession....



ALL your posts here speak on your behalf :blush: :okashii:

Uncle Frank
Oct 12, 2007, 09:17
listing some textbooks or links to back up the posts. Might be nice to know if the info comes from watching a Japanese anime show, or talking to the sushi chef at your local deli.

Uncle Frank

:okashii:

kireikoori
Oct 13, 2007, 02:12
lol, at first I found myself more agreeing with allq, now I find myself more agreeing with tokapi.

Whether the Y DNA found in Ainu is particularly European or not, they were still Caucasoid. Race, apart from genetics is just appearance, like skin color and facial features. There's no denying the fact Ainu were quite Caucasian looking. This Ainu may be a small part of Japanese population but it's certain had the chance to mix in with the rest. Just look at Ken Hirai. 5&#37; is certainly not a nothing.

Also, Northern Europeans, especially the Finnish are quite mongoloid. Though they're more Haplogroup N than Haplogroup O. Saying "%100 Asian" is a confusing thing considering Southern Europeans are more Caucasoid than Northern ones.

Japanese get their "Asian genes" from the Norther Asians. There's some Chinese in there, but it's mostly north of Huang He. That which is not that Ainu Caucasoid comes from mostly Altaic North Asians like Siberians and Monlgolians. The Koreans happen to be North Asian Altaic people as well.

Asians and Europeans are just a bunch of Central Asians anyway of course we're going to have similarities. People have been interacting and mixing and stuff before we had concepts like "Europeans" and "Asians".

I apologize UncleFrank, for I do not have any links to add to the conversation at the moment. But I will do my best to find some upon my next posting at this thread.

allq
Oct 14, 2007, 00:30
If there is anyone who is caucasian-like in appearance, it's probably Koreans bcause of all the asian ethnicities they probably the ones who can compete with caucasians in terms of height and build and not look misplaced. This is probably one of the reasons everyone is so fascinated with Korean dramas accross asia. People are probably not used to that kind of appearance. Moreover, many Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian because they believe that they look similar--and I find some of my Mongolian friends don't dispute this fact. Yet, I doubt any Korean would seriously suggest that they are part-caucasian or the like.

Keirkoori, you're quoting a mismash of theories that seem to appease what you "want" Japanese to be rather than what actually are. And sorry to burst your bubble, Japanese certainly do not look caucasian or central asian. First of all they lack the powerful build and body type. Also, I have noticed that Japanese faces are rather small and petite, whereas central asians have long and wide faces. I think it best to stick to scientific sources rather than emotional arguments like this.

For those asking for sources on my theories, everyone knows the jared diamond article on Japanese roots from Discover magazine. A link can be found here:

discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455/

Jared Diamond is the pulitizer winning author of the books guns, steel germs. He is very well known scholar in the States.

Also, with regard to actual similarites of early Korean and Japanese art, please refer to the following photos of 4-6 Century artifacts:

Gaya Helmet: Korea

flickr.com/photos/pressapochista/216583254/

Kofun Helmet: Japan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KofunHelmet.jpg

Silla Sword: Korea

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SillaSwordHilt.jpg

Kofum Sword: Japan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KofunSwordHilts.jpg

Silla Crown: Korea

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SillaCrownGuimet.jpg

Kofun Crown: Japan

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/KofunCrown.jpg

Budha Statue: Korea

flickr.com/photos/pravin8/35484439/

Budhs Statue: Japan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AsukaBodhisattva.JPG

More examples can be found in the book by Jon Covell and Alan Covell which I've already mentioned in a previous link.


With regard to language similarities, I think you need an expert knowledge of both Korean and Japanese to have an opinion of this. Anyway here's a post from a turkish guy who compared grammatical features of both languages:

I was exposed a little to Korean and I was amazed by grammatical similarities between Japanese and Korean - particles, word order, endings, politeness levels, etc. The endings and particles are not the same but the pattern is similar and you can map them.

"I go to school":

Japanese (私は) 学校へ 行きます。 ((watashi-wa) gakkō-e ikimas)
Korean: (저는) 學校 (학교) 에 가요. ((jeo-neun) haggyo-e gayo.)

(The grammatical pattern is identical for Korean and Japanese:
(optional: I-topic marker) school - direction marker go - polite ending.

The same phrase in Chinese Mandarin will be quite differently structured:
我去学校。 or 我到学校去。
Wǒ q&#249; xu&#233;xi&#224;o. or Wǒ d&#224;o xu&#233;xi&#224;o q&#249;.





Sorry about the posting the addresses. I don't have enough posts to my name to actually link the pages.



You will also notice that all of my sources tend to western as I find asian studies to be biased to further their own political agenda. Check out this article on the BBC:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1008051.stm

pipokun
Oct 14, 2007, 19:03
It is just a diet difference.
People in the DPRK and South Korea may be in the same ethnic group, but if you would be much shorter and had poorer body if you were raised in the North.
Or it is the definition of beauty that differs over time.
Miss Nippon (http://www.sponichi.co.jp/miss_nippon/past/index.html) in the last 50 years is the good example.

allq, where did you take your history education, in the state or South Korea?
Many Korean patriots like you criticise the Japanese textbook, but do you have anyone saying no against the ultra-nationalistic mixture of history and mythology in your country?
I was a bit surprised to read the history textbook telling your great Dangun is a historical fact. It is true to say that the book was written in the 13th century and described the Korean mythology, but...


You will also notice that all of my sources tend to western as I find asian studies to be biased to further their own political agenda. Check out this article on the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1008051.stm
Archaeologist exposed as fraud
Political agenda? Just a fraud.

caster51
Oct 15, 2007, 00:22
allq:

at that time , half of korean peninsula was ruled by "WA"

Goldiegirl
Oct 15, 2007, 00:58
Everytime I read "What's the origin of the Japanese people?", I always want to reply.....Japanese mothers! :)

diceke
Oct 15, 2007, 01:23
Effects of famine: Short stature evident in North Korean generation

YANJI, China — At 16, Myung Bok is old enough to join the North Korean army. But you wouldn't believe it from his appearance. The teenager stands 4-feet-7, the height of an American fifth- or sixth-grader.

Myung Bok escaped the communist North last summer to join his mother and younger sisters, who had fled to China earlier. When he arrived, 14-year-old sister Eun Hang did not recognize the scrawny little kid walking up the dirt path to their cottage in a village near the North Korean border, whom she hadn't seen for four years.



http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=korea14&date=20040214

tokapi
Oct 15, 2007, 01:45
Everytime I read "What's the origin of the Japanese people?", I always want to reply.....Japanese mothers! :)



More factual than hearsays :blush::giggle:

kireikoori
Oct 15, 2007, 03:46
If there is anyone who is caucasian-like in appearance, it's probably Koreans bcause of all the asian ethnicities they probably the ones who can compete with caucasians in terms of height and build and not look misplaced. This is probably one of the reasons everyone is so fascinated with Korean dramas accross asia. People are probably not used to that kind of appearance. Moreover, many Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian because they believe that they look similar--and I find some of my Mongolian friends don't dispute this fact. Yet, I doubt any Korean would seriously suggest that they are part-caucasian or the like.
Both Koreans and Japanese are capable of being Caucasian looking. But I find it seems to happen more often in Japanese.
Japan does have an Ainu population, Korea has none at all. Caucasian is a facial thing, not a height thing.

If Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian it's because Koreans are most likely Atlaic people. So that would make sense to me. Japanese are also Altaic people.


Japanese certainly do not look caucasian or central asian.
Some most certainly do. That 5% has an influence. You're saying "Japanese certainly do not look caucasian.." that includes 128 million.
I didn't not say Japanese people are Caucasian. I said there was a Caucasian influence.

First of all they lack the powerful build and body type.
Plenty of Caucasians are short. I'm only 5"7' myself. When I was in Japan plenty of guys were taller than me.


Central Asians
Where are you getting this Central Asians from?
The only time I mentioned Central Asians was when I said ALL Asians and Europeans come from Central Asia. Before then we all were black people.

Other than that I was merely stating that Japanese people, Korean people, Mongolian people and Siberian people are all Altaic. And all have more in common with each other than any do with Chinese. The ONLY Chinese Japanese have in them is slight amounts of North Chinese. Other than that they are Korean, Mongolian and Siberian in origin. That and a tribe of Caucasians called "Ainu" that outside of Japan only exist in Russia.


For those asking for sources on my theories, everyone knows the jared diamond article on Japanese roots from Discover magazine. A link can be found here:
http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455
Jared Diamond is the pulitizer winning author of the books guns, steel germs. He is very well known scholar in the States.
Some quotes from your site.

being very similar in appearance and genes to other East Asians, especially to Koreans
Indeed. Because Koreans and Japanese are both Altaic people.


hey are often classified as Caucasoids (so-called white people) who somehow migrated east through Eurasia to Japan. In their overall genetic makeup, though, the Ainu are related to other East Asians, including the Japanese and Koreans.
Their genetics is irrelevant, they are still Caucasian in appearance and so still Caucasian.

The Article says the non-Ainu who inhabited Japan were Northern invaders. However the Northern invaders inevitably, while often suppressing the Ainu, mixed with the Ainu.


But this view is difficult to reconcile with the distinctiveness of the Japanese language. Everyone agrees that Japanese does not bear a close relation to any other language in the world. Most scholars consider it to be an isolated member of Asiafs Altaic language family, which consists of Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungusic languages.
Again, something I have said. Japanese and Koreans are Altaic people. As can be seen from their language.


Anyway here's a post from a turkish guy who compared grammatical features of both languages:
I was exposed a little to Korean and I was amazed by grammatical similarities between Japanese and Korean - particles, word order, endings, politeness levels, etc. The endings and particles are not the same but the pattern is similar and you can map them.
"I go to school":
Japanese (Ž„‚Í) ŠwZ‚Ö s‚«‚Ü‚·B ((watashi-wa) gakkō-e ikimas)
Korean: (저는) ›{Z (학교) 에 가요. ((jeo-neun) haggyo-e gayo.)
(The grammatical pattern is identical for Korean and Japanese:
(optional: I-topic marker) school - direction marker go - polite ending.
The same phrase in Chinese Mandarin will be quite differently structured:
‰ä‹ŽŠwZB or ‰ä“žŠwZ‹ŽB
Wǒ q&#249; xu&#233;xi&#224;o. or Wǒ d&#224;o xu&#233;xi&#224;o q&#249;.
Sorry about the posting the addresses. I don't have enough posts to my name to actually link the pages.
Of course Japanese and Korean have lots of similarities, they are both Altaic languages not Sino-Tibetan.

allq
Oct 15, 2007, 06:43
Interesting, I am getting such an emotional reaction to my posts. I'm not a nationalist, and I have no opinion on the textbook issues regarding Japanese distortions. I'm not educated on such issues and I couldn't care less as to how Japanese conducts its affairs. As I've stated my interests lie mainly questions concerning genetics, linguistics, archealogy etc.

I would recommend the book Korea's Impact on Japanese History: Japan's Hidden History by Jon Covell and Alan Covell. I've given only a few examples of artifacts replicated by the Japanese. Also, as to the nationalist Caster's post, these artifacts have been dated and generally the Japanese replicas date about 100-200 years later than the comparative Korean artifacts which date much earlier. I would recommend this book for more such examples.

Also, as to Caster's ridiculous post, regarding Wa's supposed control of the Korean peninsula---I refer you to the above book which suggests otherwise--also, logistically have does a country with primitive technolgocial capibility conquer a country...not to mention there no archeological or historical evidence whatsoever of this every happening. Also if you really want to pursue this, the seven branch sword supposedly given by the Peakhe king to the kingdom of Wa, clearly stating the Wa was a servant state of Paekche does imply the exact opposite--that Paekche conquered Wa and the plethora of Paekche artifacts in Japan gives much credence to this idea. Please educate yourself. You can find more information on the seven-branched sword on wiki or I can provide a link.


True South Korean experience height explosian after better nutrition beginning after the Korean war. I have read that the average height of Koreans are very similar to Southern Europeans now---and each generation gets taller and taller. It's pretty interesting reading the reactions of non-Koreans w/ regard to their opinion of Korean actors commenting on their height. I can deduce by the fact that it is even commented on that it's probably a rarity in their own population.


North Korean are malnutritioned and it's a sad thing and a low blow to see trolls on the board taking advantage of this. Still, the North Koreans do have the same body structure as that I recognize among South Koreans such as stocky, broad shoulder, relatively large boned horizontally build etc, that if given the proper nutrition they would reach South Korean height. But it is still a fact that (South) Koreans ARE tallest among the asian groups borne out by scientific study after study. I can provide examples of these population height studies upon request.

Keikoori, I'm not going into a ridiculous argument of which population is more caucasian looking. Also, Ainus did live in the Korean peninsula--and some Koreans still have small traces of Ainu DNA. However, Ainus are now extinct on the peninsula. Due to this similarity of paleo-siberic evidence scholars have suggested that at one time Korea and Japanese islands were once connected before the glacier melting and the rise of sea levels.


And pipkun, my sources are WESTERN not Korean or asian for that matter, thus how could the content of my posts be a mix of history and myth? Neither Jared Diamond or the Covells, who are American and I doubt are hardly are trying further some kind of Korean agenda. Ridiculous. Not to mention that Jared Diamond is extremely well known pultizer prize winning author whom I doubt would be pursuaded by any side.

Keirkoori if you actually read that post carefully you will realize that the similarites are not really owed to the fact that they are thought of as altaic languages. The guy's point is that grammars of both language is startlingly identical to every detail as the placement of particles. I think you will have a better appreciation of this if you actually have knowledge of both languages.

caster51
Oct 15, 2007, 09:19
Also, as to Caster's ridiculous post, regarding Wa's supposed control of the Korean peninsula---I refer you to the above book which suggests otherwise--also, logistically have does a country with primitive technolgocial capibility conquer a country...not to mention there no archeological or historical evidence whatsoever of this every happening. Also if you really want to pursue this, the seven branch sword supposedly given by the Peakhe king to the kingdom of Wa, clearly stating the Wa was a servant state of Paekche does imply the exact opposite--that Paekche conquered Wa and the plethora of Paekche artifacts in Japan gives much credence to this idea. Please educate yourself. You can find more information on the seven-branched sword on wiki or I can provide a link.

http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26762
I will keep this topic because I have not finished..

why did Yamato help the Baekje
because there were so many wajin(japanese) at that time.
I think there were still same ppl that were stayed in korea from somewhere in china to japan.
and, most refugees from korea was as same as the Japanese who were living in korea or manchuko for immigration or occupation.

for example there are many Japanese castles in Korea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waeseong
it can not say "Japanese castle's origin was from Korea and
japanese were from korea"

magatama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magatama
Korea was not a place of origin of jade.

tokapi
Oct 15, 2007, 09:58
Checked out Professor William Wayne Farris' "Sacred Texts and Buried Treasure". He has a very detailed, balanced, and respectable analysis of Korean-Japanese relations. I whole-heartedly recommend it.


Regarding similarities of Korean and Japanese art and architecture, many are made by immigrant Korean craftsmen !


Professor Walter Edwards (of Tenri University) is one of the top Western scholars on the evolution of the kofun. He also wrote a rebuttal to Gari Ledyard's article. "Galloping along with the Horseriders".He says that kofun found in South Korea resemble 5th century keyhole-shaped kofun. However, even in the Yayoi period, round burial mounds had annexed rectangular portions that are believed to have once held ceremonies for the dead. These evolved into the keyhole-shaped kofun that are so well known today in the late 3rd/early 4th century. Therefore, by the time of any supposed Horserider invasion, keyhole shaped kofun were already on their way in development. Edwards is no die-hard Japanese nationalist who posits a Japanese invasion of Korea (keep in mind he's an archaeologist--that's his evidence), but he believes that keyhole-shaped kofun were one example of a cultural aspect that moved from Japan to the peninsula. He makes no claim of a political rulership over Korea, but gives evidence of bilateral relations between Paekche and Japan (an anachronistic term, really) as making this claim possible.


Therefore, the more I read, the more I can't see kofun shape as supporting the Horserider Theory.

tokapi
Oct 15, 2007, 10:27
Don't forget the view that northeast Asians (Ainu) mixed with South East Asians (Malayo-Polynesian speaking peoples) to form the Jomon People. The Jomon People then inhabited the Japanese archipelago until the great migrations of southern Chinese and Koreans mixed the melting pot a bit more to form the Yayoi People.

I've recommended it before and I will recommend it again: J. Edward Kidder, Jr.'s "Himiko and Japan's Elusive Chiefdom of Yamatai" provides a *fantastic* view of Jomon, Yayoi, and Kofun period Japan.

diceke
Oct 15, 2007, 22:00
North Korean are malnutritioned and it's a sad thing and a low blow to see Chinese trolls on the board taking advantage of this. Still, the North Koreans do have the same body structure as that I recognize among South Koreans such as stocky, broad shoulder, relatively large boned horizontally build etc, that if given the proper nutrition they would reach South Korean height. But it is still a fact that (South) Koreans ARE tallest among the asian groups borne out by scientific study after study. I can provide examples of these population height studies upon request.

Huh?:okashii:
Where are the Chinese trolls?
An ad hominem attack is a nice way to reply to the factual evidence.

tokapi
Oct 15, 2007, 22:37
Huh?:okashii:
Where are the Chinese trolls?



I guess this S Korean troll doesn't know you're an ethnic Japanese ( expat ) living in Taiwan :giggle::D:emblaugh:

allq
Oct 15, 2007, 22:44
Those are flimsy ridiculous theories, and as usual you quote scholars on the periphery not mainstream scholarship. That does not explain that plethora of Paekhe artifacts that are all over Japan. It should be noted, there is zero archeological or historical evidence in Korea to indicate ever that it was conquered by Wa. However, there are tons of early Koreanic art and architecture in Japan which indicate the exact opposite. I refer you to the book by the Covells.

Not only that it is logistically impossible because at the time Wa was technology primitive whereas Korea very advanced technogologically in terms of use of metal weaponry and horses to conduct relatively modern warfare. In fact, Korean introduced experimentation with regard to metals and horses to Japan. How does a country with lack of sophisticated weaponry conquer a country like Korea which already very sophisticated metal workers as indicated by the examples of Silla, Gaya, Paekje artifact I've linked above? In fact, to acquire this modern weaponry, Wa had to import technology from Korea. It even is recorded in Nihongi that early Japan was dependent on trade with Korea for import of modern techonogy. Half of the Nihongi is dedicated to entries on Korea. Hence, it is logically and logistically impossible and it is a dream that is conjured by Japanese nationalists to reconcile to the fact that there are TONS of early Koreans artifacts from Silla, Gaya, Paekje littered all over the Japonic islands.

Also, with regard to Southern Chinese contributing to Yayoi. I doubt that. Both Koreans and Japanese do not share DNA with Southern Chinese. In fact, Japanese and Southern Chinese DNA differ extremely. Hence, there is no genetic evidence and the exact opposite can be inferred: Southern Chinese had little contribution to the peopling of Japan, if any. I will link the genetic study on this upon request.

tokapi
Oct 15, 2007, 22:51
Just to let you guys know, J. Edward Kidder, Jr. has done a new translation of the Wei Zhi section on the Wa in his recent "Himiko and Japan's Elusive Chiefdom of Yamatai" (2007). It's *very* well done.

His case for Yamatai being located in the Kinai is also very convincing and well-argued.

tokapi
Oct 16, 2007, 13:09
korean does not have a DNA YAP+ at all that 50% of japanese men have.



That's right caster51,Korean males share more DNA markers with Chinamen :-)


Study of Korean Male Origins (abstract)[5]

Sunghee Hong, Seong-Gene Lee, Yongsook Yoon, Kyuyoung Song
University of Ulsan College of Medicine, 388-1 Poongnap-dong, Songpa-ku, Seoul, Korea

Population studies of genetic markers such as HLA variation and mitochondrial DNA have been used to understand human origins, demographic and migration history. Recently, diversity on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome (NRY) has been applied to the study of human history. Since NRY is passed from father to son without recombination, polymorphisms in this region are valuable for investigating male-mediated gene flow and for complementing maternally based studies of mtDNA. Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of Korean. By using 38 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphism markers, we analyzed the genetic structure of 195 Korean males. The Korean males were characterized by a diverse set of 4 haplogroups (Groups IV, V, VII, X) and 14 haplotypes that were also present in Chinese. The most frequent haplogroup in Korean was Group VII (82.6%). It was also the most frequent haplogroup in Chinese (95%) as well as in Japanese (45%). The frequencies of the haplogroups V, IV, and X were 15.4%, 1%, and 1%, respectively. The second most frequent haplogroup V in Korean was not present in Chinese, but its frequency was similar in Japanese. We have tried to correlate the Y variation with surname to determine how well the clan membership corresponds to Y variation. There were 37 surnames in our sample but genetic variation structure did not correlate with surnames. "

tokapi
Nov 21, 2007, 11:35
I found this English-subtitled video about the root of japanese people. :cool:

Delves into genetic research which has totally changed notions of who the Japanese are. Overturns Koreans' claim that the Japanese are descendants of Koreans. Rather, the Japanese are a very diverse people made up of Ainu, Okinawan, Chinese, Korean, and various other genetic sequences.

The Modern Japanese were thought to be a mixture of ancient Jomon and Yayoi Peoples. Recent Genetic Research has proven that the Jomon and Yayoi People themselves were a mixed ethnicity even when they first reached the Japanese Islands.

Complete report .... http://oniazuma.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/idenshi/

tokapi
Nov 21, 2007, 12:39
Here are detailed percentages .... :cool:

tokapi
Dec 4, 2007, 15:47
Koreans did not originate from China.



FYI .... ancient Korea's Koryo Dynasty founder 王建 Wang Geon was of Han-Chinese descent :-)

"Korean: there is one Chinese character for the surname Wang. Some sources indicate that there are fifteen Wang clans, but only two can be identified: the Kaesong 開城 Wang clan and the Chenam Wang clan. The Kaesong Wang clan, which originated in China, ruled the Korean peninsula for almost five hundred years as the ruling dynasty of the Koryo period (918–1392). There are some indications that the Kaesong Wang clan was present in the ancient Choson Kingdom (?194 bc). When the Chonju Yi clan seized power in 1392 and established the Choson kingdom, many of the members of the Kaesong Wang clan changed their names and went into hiding to avoid being persecuted by the new ruling dynasty. The Chenam Wang clan is also of Chinese origin. The Chenam Wang clan is much smaller than the Kaesong Wang clan."

As for the Wangs changing their lastname,one theory was that they changed 王 to 全.

* KOREAN WANG CLAN

Korean Wang clan existed even before " LeLang Commandary " during China's Han Dynasty controlled northern part of Korea peninsula.One of the Ministers of Old Chosun (Wang Hyob:王俠) had Wang family name at the time of the destruction of Old Chosun (Han Shu and/or Post Han Shu). Wang In (王仁) of Baekje who transmitted Chinese characters 千字文 to Japan most probably came from this clan.

Japanese sources attribute to this scholar of Paekche in the Kojiki & Nihon Shoki,the name of Wani (王仁) is linked to that of Achiki 阿直岐.

http://www.indopedia.org/Lelang_commandery.html

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0043-8243(199202)23&#37;3A3%3C306%3ACCACCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8

Source: http://genealogy.familyeducation.com/surname-origin/wang :-)

tokapi
Dec 4, 2007, 21:23
As to Japanese having Ainu roots, maybe like 5%;



Ainu is @ over 25% same as Chinese, http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CguNE9vcd-8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_period

tokapi
Dec 10, 2007, 18:57
at that time , half of korean peninsula was ruled by "WA"



It's over-stretched but you're absolutely accurate caster51 :-)

' Wa 倭 ' was existed in the southern part of Korea


<韓>在<帶方>之南, 東西以海爲限, *南與<倭>接, 方可四千里. 有三種, 一曰<馬韓>, 二曰<辰韓>, 三曰<弁韓>. <辰韓>者, 古之<辰國>也. <馬韓>在西.

Source: 《三國志》魏書 東夷傳 ( Legend of 3 Kingdoms ) Book of Wei Dong-Yi/Eastern Barbarian Chronicles

If 'Wa' simply existed in Japanese islands,this description is not possible. *It says Samhan's southern territory borders Wa :-)

tokapi
Dec 12, 2007, 13:05
But the relationship is obvious first from the similarity of the language---



There certainly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages.It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true.

Korean is similar, if not related, to Japanese.They are grammatically pretty identical whereas vocabulary wise they are no.

Racial characteristics do not always correlate with the langage spoken by particular people.

Since when did language groups denote race :okashii:?

tokapi
Dec 12, 2007, 13:15
According to Chinese history records, Huimo ( Yemak 穢貊 ) was formed by two peoples ( Korean nationalists staunchly claimed these were their ancient ancestors ).One being Hui (穢) and the other being Mo (貊). Hui people used to populated around China's Shangdong peninsula. Mo people used to populated around the northern edge of China's Hebei and Shangxi provinces. Some branches of Hui (穢) people and Mo (貊) people migrated to Manchuria. After their arrival to the southern Mancuria and North Korea, some clans of Hui and Mo merged and evloved into a new tribal alliance of Huimo ( Yemak 穢貊 ) at the eastern side of North Korea.Some of Hui and Mo populated a large territory of southern and south-central Macnhuria. They did not merged into a single people initially and live independently in Southern Manchuria. Maybe I should change the wording of Huimo system into Hui-Mo system just to make a distinguishing from that single Huimo tribal alliace in the eastern North Korea.Later,they became the Puyo 夫餘 clans ( predecessor of Baekje or Paekche in southern Korea peninsula ).

Oh ... ultra-nationalist Koreans romanticized that Yamato Royal House was founded by the Puyo people.

kireikoori
Dec 12, 2007, 13:56
There certainly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages.It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true.
Finnish scientist? What Finnish scientist? And how do you know that there isn't any truth to what this so called Finnish scientist said?

tokapi
Dec 23, 2007, 19:08
There is solid DNA evidence that Chinese have origins in SE asia. Also, many Chinese I've seen do look amazingly like Vietnamese. I can't tell them apart most of the time. In fact, Chinese and Vietnamese and Thai languages sound extremely similar, all being tonal languages. Thai language supposedly originated in China.



Genetic relationship of populations in China on the PNAS website,it is quite long and I scanned through but still can't find anything that substantiate your claim.

Source: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714

Quote: " genetic evidence does not support an independent origin of Homo Sapiens in China ".The phylogeny also suggested that it is more likely that ancestors of the populations currently residing in East Asia entered from Southeast Asia." from the abstract, and "Now that we have established that populations in East Asia were subjected to genetic contributions from multiple sources: Southeast Asia, Altaic from northeast Asia, and mid-Asia or Europe. It would be interesting to estimate relative contributions from each source.Unfortunately,the current study involved only mostly minority populations.A study involving populations across the country is necessary to reveal such a picture"

At the conclusion,what I see is that the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " ( not the Han Chinese, mind you).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_China#Demographics_of_the_eth nic_minorities

Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets does not share the M122 genetic marker with the Hans. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not.

I read the other article on PNAS, and quote

"Usually, most Chinese immigrants to the U.S. (and to other countries, like Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan, etc.) come from southern China, and this is certainly true of the cell lines from California residents from China born in the mainland, collected by Louise Chen and Alice Lin at Stanford and used in our surveys (2, 7, 8). Han-Chinese living in the south of China mostly came originally from the North, but they did so at very different times, and thus had different times for gene flow from the earlier settlers,that is the minorities"

The statement sort of confirm Han Chinese from south China " mostly came originally from the north ", which substantiate Li Hui theory of one of his 3 streams where in one stream the peoples passed through tibetan plateau to arrive in North China were ancestors of the Han-Chinese and Tibetans, carrying the genetic marker M117.PNAS site states that "Han-Chinese living in the south of China mostly came originally from the north, but they did so at very different times".

Virtually all Han Chinese share the same paternal and maternal lineage except for few southern groups that had Austronesian maternal ancestors.The many migrations ( referenced Tang & Song history chronicles ) into southern China have diluted the bloodlines.

The fact is that the Han Chinese majority and ethnic Vietnamese didn't share a common root.Any culture similarity,language similarity and genetic similarity in the south are due to chinese expansion to the south,and cultural diffusion, and mixing with the local people but not by common root. its simple as that.It is a fact that Vietnamese culture shares similarities with Chinese culture is due to Chinese influence like how Chinese influenced Korean and Japanese,not by common root.Another fact that the northern Han-Chinese migrated southward in large numbers and some have mixed with the locals and thats the reason they are genetic related ( same scenario with both Japanese & Koreans because their ancestors originally from Asia continent which is today's China excluding Russian Far East Territory & outer Mongolia ).

Series of civil warfare, rebellions, famines and barbarian invasions in Northern China led to mass migrations of Chinese people from devastated Northern China to the fertile and peaceful Southern China. An estimated 20 million people migrated from Northern China to Southern China from 800AD – 1250AD, to flee from prosecution and escape from the destitute and war-ridden Northern China.Through these waves of migrations to the south,Middle Chinese language was brought into Southern China.Eventually evolved into several dialects,a major one of these dialects is Cantonese.

Vietnamese is an Austro-asiatic language,not Austronesian.Thus the language is related to that of the Khmers and Mons.The negrito people of Malaya (Asli people) also speak this language.In this latter case,it is likely they were a mixed race adopting the language of the dominant group). We should also note that the original speakers of Austro-asiatic (and for that matter, Austronesian) are also Mongoloids.The differences in features only indicate the amount of negrito blood in them due to intermarriage. Paleolithic Negrito people (who look like the Australian Aborigines) lived in most of Southeast Asia and South China prior to the big migration of Mongoloids southwards, which displaced these peoples. Other contribution of course also include climate and diet.

It is a fact that Vietnamese language has at least 60&#37; of Chinese loanwords due to Chinese cultural influence and dominance,50% of Chinese loanwords in Korean and Japanese languages,again not by common roots.

************************************************** ********

Below are credible and interesting sources that any interested reader can find out more about the former ancient kingdom of Champa in southern part of Vietnam and her people.

Concerning my personal "impression" of the former Champa kingdom, here is just but one conclusion from Authors Peter and Sanda Simms who wrote, "Champa had been proved to be an extremely powerful and civilized nation."

There is a Vietnamese scholar named Dr. Thanh Liem Vo of Australia who wrote about the Cham people as follows:

"…the vast majority of the population in Central Vietnam are from Cham descendants but assimilated into Viet culture wholely." Listen to their accent!!

Mr Pham Van Dong ( a Cham descendant ) was Prime Minister of North Vietnam for 45 years.Former S Vietnam president Mr Nguyen Van Thieu ( also a Cham descendant).They both did nothing for Chams...No one in South and Central Vietnam can say for sure they have no Cham or Cambodian blood.

tokapi
Dec 23, 2007, 19:36
Koreans probably confuse Mongolia with Siberia since that they are in the same region.



Some of your Korean compatriots have clear identity ( ethnic origin ) tho

Vietnamese refugee L&#253; Dương C&#244;n (李陽焜) was progenitor of 花山李氏 (The Hwasan Lee clan).Former South Korean president Syngman Rhee reportedly told the local Korean press that he was a descendant of Vietnamese Ly.:-)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_people_in_Korea

tokapi
Dec 25, 2007, 11:27
Japanese and Chinese researchers themselves have a personal bias and hidden agenda.



How about Koreans re-examine own idiocy of extremism & fanaticism :bluush:


Hyung Il Pai, Constructing "Korean" Origins.A Critical Review of Archaeology, Historiography, and Racial Myth in Korean State Formation Theories. Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard East Asian Monographs, 2000. 543 pages. ISBN: 0-674-00244-X.

Source: http://koreaweb.ws/ks/ksr/ksr01-10.htm

Nationalism has been a major force in the creation of the Korean state in the 20th Century. It was fueled during the colonial period when it underpinned the struggle for independence. Korean intellectuals promoted patriotism, and with it a sense of nationhood, yet the question of identity suddenly became an important issue when Japanese archaeologists began digging into Korea's past. Their activities and those of anthropologists, paid for largely by the Japanese government, focused on the history and culture of Korean civilization. The Japanese military government planned to assimilate the Korean people and the outcome of the studies, so it hoped, would serve to facilitate the assimilation process. It also made efforts to prevent expressions of a distinct Korean identity. For that purpose it imposed strong censorship and ruled that, among other things, the Korean Confucian institution was to be broken down, Korean history books rewritten, and Japanese taught as the primary language at schools.

After the liberation, the ensuing strong anti-Japanese sentiments helped the state to further boost nationalism, this time in order to increase competitiveness and productivity, improve national unity, and preempt criticism of the government. The success of South Korean president Park Chung Hee's policy of cultural indoctrination, in particular, was such that today most South Koreans share the same ideas about their unique cultural heritage and 5,000-year history. Park's nationalism focused on the threat from foreign powers and the uniqueness of Korea's national identity. It involved advocating old Confucian values that underscored the responsibility shared by all strata of society in achieving the state's economic and political objectives. Perhaps under the influence thereof, many Koreans, both scholars and laymen, began dealing with their colonial past their own way. They did so either by blaming the Japanese for stripping the country of its cultural treasures and economic resources, and leaving the country in ruins, or by rewriting the history of Korea, which they considered to have been greatly contrived by the Japanese during the colonial period. The starting point was to "prove" the historical truth of the myth of Tan'gun, who allegedly founded the first Korean state as early as 2333 B.C. Popular support for adopting the Tan'gun theory was significant, and was further gained under Park's rule. Due to this widespread support, and the fact that many of these historians gained prestigious positions in the academic world, the misconceptions stand largely uncorrected and continue to thwart objective Korean historiography.

In Constructing Korean Origins, Hyung Il Pai tackles most of the post-colonial historiographical constructions. With great dexterity she examines how and whether Korean historians have used the available data in formulating their many preconceived theories on the existence of Tan'gun's very early and purely Korean civilization, which, so they argue, was one of formidable cultural development and influence. Based on her findings, she shows that, instead, the first Korean state was not an isolated culture and cannot have been formed until much later.

In terms of the number of pages, the book is divided in two sections. The first part is made up of seven chapters, and the second of a relatively long section (127 pp.) of appendices, followed by the notes, bibliography, glossary and index. In the introduction, "The Formation of Korean Identity" (pp. 1-22), Pai summarizes the factors that led to the current trends in historiography. She outlines the nationalist cultural policy of South Korea's post-war governments and the nationalist activities of scholars, and explains how they have managed to shape the Korean identity. Urged on by the fast industrialization and urbanization, the government has become the arbiter in terms of which archaeological sites are salvaged from destruction by building projects. According to Pai, it is now "the supreme authority over the 'authentic domain of identity'" (p. 13).


* Author ( ethnic Korean ) Hyung Il Pai was born and raised in Seoul, South Korea

http://www.eastasian.ucsb.edu/content/people_pai.html

tokapi
Dec 25, 2007, 12:12
Here is a Japanese language website on Dr Hyung Il Pai

http://www.nichibun.ac.jp/research/faculty/staff3/pai.html

tokapi
Dec 25, 2007, 21:12
Koreans are NOT related to Chinese.




S Korean surname website source verified & confirmed ethnic Koreans of Chinese origin.:-)


* 孔氏 ( Gong/Korean or Kong/Chinese )

http://www.surname.info/gong/gong1.html

( ancestor's hometown China's Qufu 曲阜 )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qufu

Former S Korea Foreign Minister Gong Ro Myung ( of late 1990's ) admitted in newspaper interviews that his family originally from China's Shandong peninsula.


* China's Ming General 陳璘 during Korea's Injim War against Japanese invasion.His grandson settled in Korea peninsula,and one S Korean male offspring made a personal visit to Chinese ancestor's tomb in China's Canton province 3 years ago.

http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5/news.xinhuanet.com/overseas/2005-12/08/content_3893337.htm

* 陳氏 ( Chen ) ( ancestor originally from Canton China )

http://www.surname.info/jin/gwang_dong.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Lin_&#37;28Ming%29

tokapi
Dec 26, 2007, 08:52
it is a dream that is conjured by Japanese nationalists to reconcile to the fact that there are TONS of early Koreans artifacts from Silla, Gaya, Paekje littered all over the Japonic islands.




Technological culture was of Han-Chinese origin

Blind nationalism is most prevailing in Korean academia :p


This is REAL history without any political agenda.

References:

Pai, Hyung Il. "Lelang and the 'Interaction Sphere': An Alternative Approach to Korean State Formation." Archaeological Review from Cambridge 8:1 (1989): 64-75.

Pai, Hyung Il. "Culture Contact and Culture Change: The Korean Peninsula and its Relations with the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang." World Archaeology 23:3 (February 1992): 306-319.

One of the most controversial topics in Korean archaeology and history concerns the Han Lelang commanderies that were established in the Korean peninsula during the Han dynasty in 108 BC and lasted for 400 years.

In the traditional view, the importance of the Lelang in Korean history was seen in its role as the common enemy, at the time when Korea first experienced colonial rule.Such sentiment is so strong that there are actually some Korean ultranationalists who even deny the very existence of the Lelang commandery.

This view has been further complicated by the fact that some of the earliest archaeological work on Lelang was initiated by the Japanese around the time of the First World War. Back then, the ulterior motives of territorial claims by the Japanese Government General's Office of Korea over the Korean peninsula and Manchuria made some Japanese Lelang scholars claim that Han Lelang culture in Korea was a purely Han Chinese phenomenon, with no native Korean variants and forms.

But what really were the relations between the Korean Peninsula and the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang? Hyung Il Pai (1992) presented a more balanced theoretical view that may help reconcile the nationalistic view of contemporary Korean scholars with pre-war Japanese colonial interpretations of Han Lelang's position in Korean prehistory. Basically,she argued that social and regional differentiation in the Korean peninsula were not possible without initial Han contact. Before the Lelang period, regional differences find expression ony in terms of minor variation in pottery styles. In contrast, third-century texts of the Weizhi (300 years after initial Han contact) reveal the existence of various guo 国 (or tribal kingdoms) such as Puyo, Koguryo, Okcho, Eastern Ye and Samhan. They are recorded as having distinctively different social organizations, subsistence systems, customs, and rituals.

The most important "traits of civilization" such as iron technology, writing, gold craftsmanship, and intesive rice agriculture, were derived from Han Lelang culture. Such widespread distribution of ideas and technology would not have been possible without the elite distribution network of seals, bronze mirrors, and luxury Han goods which stimlulated the initial exchange network.

According to Pai (1992), once this network was established in the core areas of Lelang, it quickly spread to all other parts of Korea and into southern-western Japan, forming the "Lelang Interaction Sphere" in Korean prehistory (that included Koguryo, Wa of Japan, and Samhan - Chinhan, Pyonhan, and Mahan)".Without this initial phase, the second stage of the interaction sphere that comprised Koguryo, Paekche, Silla, and Kofun Japan, would not have been possible. Extensive trade and diplomatic activities were heightened and reinforced by competition and warfare with Yamato Japan and the three kingdoms. These states shared common features in palatial architecture, in the spread of Buddhism and associated sculpture, as well as in gold artwork and jewellery.

http://www.eastasian.ucsb.edu/content/people_pai.html

tokapi
Dec 26, 2007, 12:22
Koreans and Chinese do not even look similar.




Majority modern day northern Han-Chinese ( local populations of Shandong peninsula & provinces north of Yangtze River ) and Koreans look exactly alike,it's hard to tell them apart because they share same ( original ancient northern Hans & Mongols ) ancestral roots.:-)

tokapi
Dec 27, 2007, 18:46
Interestingly,in Saga prefecture of Japan, there is an unknown grave on a hill that is supposedly dedicated to Xu Fu ( 徐福 ), though one might say that it could be a tourist gimmick.Meanwhile, Fukuoka ,the largest city in Kyushu Island and where Xu Fu ( 徐福 )was rumoured to have landed, was named after two places, Fuku(福) and Oka 岡.One could perhaps guess that the place Fuku was name after Xu Fu, whose name in Japanese was jou fuku.There are other places in the island of Kyushu which may point to Xu Fu's arrival in Japan.

But it seems to be only a legend.There were probably Chinese immigrants moving to Japan via Korea and the Ryukyus, but I think it would be pretty untrue to say that the Japanese are solely the descendants of these Chinese immigrants.

Early Chinese legend never said that the Japanese were descendants of Xu Fu ( 徐福,the Daoist alchemist) and the large number of boys and girls he brought with him. Instead, in the Sanguo Zhi ( 三國志 ) and Hou Hanshu ( 後漢書 ), the first two dynastic history chronicles to describe Japan, Xu Fu's new home is identified as a different island called Chanzhou 澶洲 or Danzhou 亶洲. Sun Quan is said to have sent a fleet to find this island, but they were unsucessful and only reached Taiwan or Okinawa (known as Yizhou 夷洲). There is no suggestion that it was Japan.

It was only in recent Chinese history that people started to claim that Xu Fu ( 徐福 ) was the ancestor of the Japanese.This is motivated by silly Chinese nationalistic pride.

tokapi
Dec 29, 2007, 20:27
In fact, Japanese and Southern Chinese DNA differ extremely.



Hearsay or your baseless biased opinion ?! :p

Japanese are about the same height as many Southeast Asian groups but shorter than most North East Asians ( northern Han-Chinese & Koreans,they're blood siblings )...maybe as tall as Hong Kong Chinese people and a lot of Taiwan Chinese ( southern Han-Chinese stock ).

Abstract Using the data on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) restriction polymorphism, the gene pools of Koreans (N = 164) and Mongolians (N = 48) were characterized. It was demonstrated that the gene pools were represented by the common set of mtDNA haplogroups of East Asian origin (M*, M7, M8a, M10, C, D4, G*, G2, A, B*, B5, F1, and N*). In addition to this set, mtDNA haplogroups D5 and Y were identified in Koreans while Mongolians possessed haplogroup Z. Only in Mongolians, a European component with the frequency of 10.4&#37; and represented by the mtDNA types belonging to haplogroups K, U4, and N1, was identified. Phylogenetic and statistical analyses of the data on mtDNA variation in the populations of South Siberia, Central, and East Asia suggested the existence of interpopulation differentiation within these regions, the main role in which was played by the geographical and linguistic factors. Analysis of the pairwise F ST distances demonstrated close genetic similarity of Koreans to Northern Chinese, which in turn, were clearly different from Southern Chinese populations. Mongolians occupied an intermediate position between the ethnic groups of South Siberia and Central/East Asia.

tokapi
Jan 1, 2008, 10:29
1) The first horses that appeared on Japanese islands came from Korea 2000 years ago.

3) Kyushu which is closest to the Southern tip of Korea is hypothesized as the place as where Japanese cultural bloom began because it is the area in which you will find the oldest and culturally significant early Japanese artifacts.




1) J. Edward Kidder, Jr. (who released a 400+ page book on the history, archaeology, and mythology surrounding Himiko and the location of Yamatai this Spring) covers the history of horses in Japan in his article "The Archaeology of the Early Horse-Riders in Japan". You can read it in "The Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan". He also provided some great evidence that discredits a few pillars of Egami's horseriders theory.Of course,every theory has aspects that reflect cultural/social/historical currents.

I recommend you guys checking out his article. I'll only lay out a few points he made in this post.

-The Kiso horse is indigenous to Japan, yet it's presently endangered. The horse that spread throughout the archipelago was imported from Korea.

-Horses began to be ridden widely in the 5th century.

-It was expected that aristocrats know how to ride horses.

-The native horses were from the Late Jomon period (1000 B.C.-300 B.C.)

-He gives 114.5 cm as an average height for the indigenous horses (measured up to the "withers")

-Yayoi horses are, on average, 132 cm (again, "withers")

-Jomon and Yayoi (300 B.C.-250 A.D.) sites don't imply the eating or sacrifice of horses. I believe Farris mentioned they were beasts of burden, however they apparently weren't ridden, yet.

-After the Yayoi period, horses began to be used in religious rituals. They were sacrificed. The Taika Reforms of the 7th century prohibited the sacrificing of horses (among other mourning practices after one's lord/leader had died).

-Horse sacrifice is actually a bit debated, as Kidder wonders why the Japanese would sacrifice the few horses that lived on the islands during the first years of the Kofun period.

-The use of horse haniwa around kofun seems to imply that the Japanese believed that horses were mediums or intouch with the spiritual world. 8th century rituals involving horse figures attest to this.

There's a lot more information in the short article. If you can get your hands on it, it'd go nicely with Walter Edwards rebuttal of Egami's theory. Both are from an archaeological standpoint.

A reputable Japanese archaeologist 樋口隆康 noted 2 Chinese migration routes

* China's lower Yangtze River ( today China's coastal provinces of Jiangsu & Zhejiang ) > northern Kyūshū 九州 of Japan

* southern China via Taiwan and Ryukyus ( Okinawa ) > southern Kyūshū 九州 of Japan

日本考古学研究家 " 樋口隆康 "

http://www.google.com/search?q=&#37;E6%A8%8B%E5%8F%A3%E9%9A%86%E5%BA%B7&hl=en&rlz=1T4SKPB_enUS232US233&start=0&sa=N

『日本人はどこから来たか』(樋口隆康著、講談社現代新書)は、考古学者の日本人起源論である。樋口は日本 人を「日本列島に住み、同じ体質を持ち、日本的な文化を持つ一群の人類群」と定義した上で、「日本人の起源 とは日本文化の起源である」という立場から、起源を、日本文化の形成過程に求めている。他分野の知見も参考 にし、石器や土器、稲作の伝来や農具など発掘から得たデータをもとに考察する樋口は、文化は樺太、朝鮮半島 、(中国)東シナ海、台湾・南西諸島、小笠原諸島の5ルートから日本に移入されていて、その合成により日本 文化は形成されたが、中でも中国江南地域から東シナ海を通って伝えられた文化が最も重要な役割を果たしてお り、形成時期は弥生時代である、という仮説をたてる。

Source: http://shinshomap.info/theme/roots_of_japanese_g.html

Japanese-English translation website: http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/

tokapi
Jan 11, 2008, 06:13
We must not mistake the true definition of " Yayoi 弥生 ",it dedicates to a history era ( 弥生時代 ) of Japan between 300 BCE-250 CE and culture & people designated to this period.By no means,it implies " monolithic " race or origin of Yayoi population.I am open to & entertain the idea of " migration waves " or " various origins " of Yayoi population.Japanese recent Genetic Research has proven that the Jomon and Yayoi People themselves were mixed ethnicities.I think people of SE Asian & Pacific lslanders blended in and interbred with the rest of the population since they weren't the majority.

related thread ... http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9496

tokapi
Feb 13, 2008, 14:21
* I have found one updated research on Yayoi

The migrations in Yayoi period happened way before there was any nation-state in Korea peninsula.And now,the re-evaluations of carbon 14 had indicated the possibility that maybe Yayoi period began 500 years earlier than previously recognized ( BC 800 ).


It is noteworthy that this is the first time that NMJH has been awarded a Grant-in-Aid for Creative Scientific Research from the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology for research on, "The Origin of the Farming in the Yayoi Period and East Asia: Establishment of High-Precision Chronology by Carbon 14 Age Analysis", the NMJH Centers of Excellence grant since 1997

" The Origin of the Farming in the Yayoi Period and East Asia: Establishment of High-Precision Chronology by Carbon 14 Age Analysis" (2004-2008) (General Organizer: NISHIMOTO Toyohiro)

NMJH has been conducting studies on the application of high-precision C14 dating techniques with the use of Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS).This research was approved in order to confirm preliminary results that the Yayoi period had started in the 10th century BCE, or 500 years earlier than previous archaeological theories have proposed. At the end of 2003, NMJH established a research facility to create a framework for C14 dating experiments. With the award of the grant, the group decided to conduct nation-wide research on age determination, primarily of Yayoi period remains.

In the 2004 fiscal year, more than 2,000 samples of wood, seeds, and carbide residue on earthen vessels were extracted from 190 sites; among them, measurements were conducted on 500 samples. As a result, we speculate that irrigated rice cultivation of the Yayoi cultures first appeared in northern Kyushu approximately 930 BCE and that the "early Yayoi" period began around 800 BCE. We also tentatively concluded that "early Yayoi" culture appeared in the Chugoku and Kinai areas between 700 and 600 BCE, 100 to 200 years later than northern Kyushu. We are also beginning to get a clear picture of ocean reservoir effects and millet.

English Source: http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/e_kenkyuu/report2004.html

Natl Museum of Japanese History: http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/english/index.html

tokapi
Feb 13, 2008, 14:39
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/kenkyuu/news/index.htm

九州北部の弥生時代早期から弥生時代前期(年表参照)にかけての土器(夜臼Ⅱ式土器・板付Ⅰ式土器)に付着 していた炭化物などの年代を、AMS法による炭素14年代測定法によって計測したところ、紀元前約900~ 800年ごろに集中する年代となった。

http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/kenkyuu/news/hyou.htm

The above link chart indicates earlier Yayoi periods of northern Kyushu island in concurrent with Zhou Dynasty and Spring & Autumn of China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_and_Autumn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_&#37;28state%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Wu

* origin of Kimono ( 呉服 ) or Gofuku ( literally translated as "Costume of Wu" ).

http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35391

tokapi
Feb 16, 2008, 12:33
”¹l : ƒI[ƒXƒgƒƒlƒVƒAŒn‚̌Ñã“ú–{•”‘°
Hayato : An Austronesian speaking tribe in southern Japan

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110000577490/en/

* Earliest ancient Chinese history chronicle identified black-teeth indigenous islanders populated present day southern foremost Japanese archipelago.

Color red
Feb 24, 2008, 02:34
Here are detailed percentages .... :cool:

You are repeating to use the chart of the same source, from 1998 NHK documentary based on professor horai's own independent seminary works.

You did not appreciate the copyright laws by not citing the original sources, and remember you are not quoting the academic sources, but treat commercial sources without giving names, creation date, and company name.

You are also ignoring my comments or warnings of misuse and violation of copyright laws on the publication dates of "original academic sources", so please excuse me to repeat my previous posts below.

Horai published a book in 1997, and results are mostly then-2 years old (listed below), meaning that the chart you give much credits are done on 1990-1995, ancient by the standard of genetic science.

Horai S., Hayasaka K., Kondo R., Tsugane K. and Takahata N.: Recent African origin of modern humans revealed by complete sequences of hominoid mito chondrial DNAs. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 92, 532-536, 1995.
Horai S.: Evolution and origins of man: clues from complete sequences of hominoid mitochondrial DNA. Southeast Asian J. Trop. Med. Publ. Health, 26(Suppl. 1), 146-154, 1995.
Horai S.: Origin of Homo sapiens inferred from the age of the common ancestral human mitochondrial DNA. In The origin and past of modern humans as viewed from DNA (S. Brenner and K. Hanihara, eds.), pp. 171-185, World Scientific, 1995.
1Horai S., Kondo R., Sonoda S. and Tajima K.: The first Americans: Different waves of migration to the New World inferred from mitochondrial DNA sequence polymorphisms. In Prehistoric dispersal of Mongoloids, (T. Akazawa and E. Szathmary, eds.), pp. 270-283, Oxford University Press, 1996.

A chart I quoted below is created in 2005, and 2006, and by the reputed western scholors, for that reason, I tend to believe them comparing to the Horai's studies based on outdated unreliable methodology, without an international team, and published 12 years ago.

What also bothers me is that your comments do not match the description of chart which is highly inappropriate.:okashii:

http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/W-MAP.GIF

Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer
and farmer Y chromosomes

Michael F. Hammer, Tatiana M. Karafet, Hwayong Park et al, 2006
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/kinnchii/japan1.jpg

Below is the Hammer's results on the three major genetic lineages of Japanese people.

Haplogroup C (M130, M216)
High frequencies among the indigenous populations of Mongolia, the Russian Far East, Polynesia, Australia, and at moderate frequency in the Korean Peninsula, Manchuria, Japan and India.
*about 10% of Japanese population has Haplogroup C

Haplogroup D (M174)
High frequencies among the indigenous populations of Tibet, Japanese Archipelago (Ainu of Japan), Andaman Islands, Tajikistan
*about 35% of Japanese population has Haplogroup D

Haplogroup O (M175):
High frequencies among the indigenous populations of Austronesia, China (Sino-Tibetan, Han chinese of China), Tai, Cambodia, Vietnam, Hmong-Mien, Japan, Korean Peninsula
*about 50% of Japanese population has Haplogroup O

In case you are refering to Austronesian by Pacific Islanders, you may find the following guide as useful (from MacDonald, 2005).

Haplogroup K (M-9):
High frequencies among Melanesian, New Guinean, indigenous people of Fiji, Solomon Islands
*Japanese people is not known to have this haplogroup.

Haplogroup K is found at low to moderate frequencies (5%) in the indigenous population of South east Asia, Northern Han Chinese and Southern Han Chinese.

Color red
Feb 24, 2008, 02:47
”¹l : ƒI[ƒXƒgƒƒlƒVƒAŒn‚̌Ñã“ú–{•”‘°
Hayato : An Austronesian speaking tribe in southern Japan
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110000577490/en/
* Earliest ancient Chinese history chronicle identified black-teeth indigenous islanders populated present day southern foremost Japanese archipelago.

The article is published in 1998, and did not link with updated results of genetic science. Before you post, please give a courtesy of citing publication years and at least an abstract of article.

You are also stating something not in the article. Please be cautious on the use of academic materials.


Don't forget the view that Northeast Asians (Ainu) mixed with South East Asians ( Malayo-Polynesian speaking peoples) to form the Jomon People.

Your view is new to me, and to mainstream geneticist. Ainu is usually not grouped with Northeast Asian. South east asian is not an isolate gene stock, and known to share the Haplogroup O with all of East Asia, the dominant among East Asians including Southern Han Chinese, Northern Han Chinese.

For details of mainstream geneticist view of Japanese origin, please find the below, and I hope it useful to you.

Genetics
PNAS | August 28, 2001 | vol. 98 | no. 18 | 10244-10249

The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity

R. Spencer Wellsa,b, Nadira Yuldashevaa,c, Ruslan Ruzibakievc, Peter A. Underhilld, Irina Evseevae, Jason Blue-Smithd, Li Jinf, Bing Suf, Ramasamy Pitchappang, Sadagopal Shanmugalakshmig, Karuppiah Balakrishnang, Mark Readh, Nathaniel M. Pearsoni, Tatiana Zerjalj, Matthew T. Websterk, Irakli Zholoshvilil, Elena Jamarjashvilil, Spartak Gambarovm, Behrouz Nikbinn, Ashur Dostievo, Ogonazar Aknazarovp, Pierre Zallouaq, Igor Tsoyr, Mikhail Kitaevs, Mirsaid Mirrakhimovs, Ashir Charievt, and Walter F. Bodmera,u

ABSTRACT
The nonrecombining portion of the human Y chromosome has proven to be a valuable tool for the study of population history. The maintenance of extended haplotypes characteristic of particular geographic regions, despite extensive admixture, allows complex demographic events to be deconstructed. In this study we report the frequencies of 23 Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphism haplotypes in 1,935 men from 49 Eurasian populations, with a particular focus on Central Asia. These haplotypes reveal traces of historical migrations, and provide an insight into the earliest patterns of settlement of anatomically modern humans on the Eurasian continent. Central Asia is revealed to be an important reservoir of genetic diversity, and the source of at least three major waves of migration leading into Europe, the Americas, and India. The genetic results are interpreted in the context of Eurasian linguistic patterns.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/kinnchii/pq1713050001-1.jpg

Cranial Morphology
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/171305898v1

Anthropology
Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: A comparative craniofacial view

C. Loring Brace*,, A. Russell Nelson*,, Noriko Seguchi*, Hiroaki Oe˜, Leslie Sering*, Pan Qifeng÷, Li Yongyi, and Dashtseveg Tumen**
* Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, 1109 Geddes Avenue, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; Department of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071; ˜ Department of Statistics, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; ÷ Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, 27 Wangfujing Dajie, Beijing 100710, China; Department of Anatomy, Chengdu College of Traditional Chinese Medicine, 13 Xing Lo Road, Chengdu, Sichuan, People's Republic of China; and ** Department of Anthropology, Mongolian Academy of Sciences, Ulaanbaatar-51, Mongolia

Communicated by Kent V. Flannery, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, June 18, 2001 (received for review January 2, 2001)

Abstract
Human craniofacial data were used to assess the similarities and differences between recent and prehistoric Old World samples, and between these samples and a similar representation of samples from the New World. The data were analyzed by the neighbor-joining clustering procedure, assisted by bootstrapping and by canonical discriminant analysis score plots. The first entrants to the Western Hemisphere of maybe 15,000 years ago gave rise to the continuing native inhabitants south of the U.S.-Canadian border. These show no close association with any known mainland Asian population. Instead they show ties to the Ainu of Hokkaido and their Jomon predecessors in prehistoric Japan and to the Polynesians of remote Oceania. All of these also have ties to the Pleistocene and recent inhabitants of Europe and may represent an extension from a Late Pleistocene continuum of people across the northern fringe of the Old World. With roots in both the northwest and the northeast, these people can be described as Eurasian. The route of entry to the New World was at the northwestern edge. In contrast, the Inuit (Eskimo), the Aleut, and the Na-Dene speakers who had penetrated as far as the American Southwest within the last 1,000 years show more similarities to the mainland populations of East Asia. Although both the earlier and later arrivals in the New World show a mixture of traits characteristic of the northern edge of Old World occupation and the Chinese core of mainland Asia, the proportion of the latter is greater for the more recent entrants.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/kinnchii/pq1713058004.gif

Fig. 4. A dendrogram based on the samples used to construct Fig. 3, plus a Bronze Age Mongolian group and four others from the Western Hemisphere. (A) The neighbor-joining method was used on 1,000 bootstrap samplings to generate the pattern displayed. (B) The relationships among the groups are also displayed by canonical discriminant function scores. The first discriminant function accounts for 48% of total variation, and the second accounts for 16%.

Japanese has multiple origins, and I can briefly categorize them into three categories.

(1) Yayoi (North East Asian) Japanese (Continental, Korean, Manchus, Mongols)

(2) Yayoi (South East Asian) Japanese (Continental, Han Chinese, Hmong, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Thais, Phillipinos)

(3) Jomon Japanese (Emishi-tohoku, Ainu-hokkaido, Kumaso-kagoshima, Ryukyuan-okinawa, and people rooted in shikoku and kanto, and others who interbreds with Yayoi. Note: Ancient Japanese Knight's class', samurai, crania were known to be much common with Ainu.)

The Emishi: What Anthropology tells us
http://www.emishi-ezo.net/emishi_anthro.html

Who Were the Emishi?
http://www.isn.ne.jp/%7Esuzutayu/MHJapan/WhosEmishi.html

The pictures below were from emshi-ezo.net.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/kinnchii/image002.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/kinnchii/image001.png

Color red
Feb 24, 2008, 03:00
On the similarity of materials to those posted on other forum

Please have a look at:

Japan's Yayoi period, updated research
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21329

User dingy posted very similar materials like yours, tokapi although dingy was banned for his/her trolling, and for statement without courtesy of authors dingy quoted. dingy's use of obscure materials also worsened his/her reputation to effect his/her bans from the forum.

Anyway, I wanted to point this out to Tokapi because you, Tokapi, should know that you are either quoted, or quoting the similar materials on other forum.:blush:

bammbamm&pebbles
Oct 20, 2008, 06:59
Dual origins of the Japanese:

A set of 81 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) was used to trace the origins of Paleolithic and Neolithic components of the Japanese paternal gene pool, and to determine the relative contribution of Jomon and Yayoi Y chromosome lineages to modern Japanese. Our global sample consisted of >2,500 males from 39 Asian populations, including six populations sampled from across the Japanese archipelago.

a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi,contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p31g0300430k6215/

I would say any sample below 2,000, any sampling that does not strictly follow a well defined statistical method be kept at bay by calling them hypotheses.

The small sample size is enough to raise serious doubts about the reliability of the study; most genetic group studies conducted these days suffer from the same problem. Furthermore, the sampling method employed is not even defined.Often times academic studies are hampered by such fundamental flaws lending numerous theoretical and factual errors to creep in. Academic publishing has become more an issue of competition for suvival pushing otherwise good intuitions to deteriorate into sensational hypothesising that stops at just that. The temptation to manipulate data by "weeding out" unfavourable "stray occurences" to force statistics with superficial appeal are sometimes detected, but not always. The extent to which dishonest science has become fashionable is a problem that needs to be addressed before getting too serious about any particular study result.


Actually,in term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different. Majority modern day Koreans have broad face and big head whereas the Japanese typically have sharp narrow face and small head.Also,most Koreans are stocky build oppose to the Japanese are mostly smaller build.

Great disparity of these basic physical characteristics are sufficient to ' debunk ' any argument that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than with other NE Asian group

bammbamm&pebbles
Oct 21, 2008, 20:42
The Japanese are more ' indigenous ' than you all previously believed.


Abstract:

Based on the frequencies of these two clades (my note - Y haplogroups D, O-P31 and O-M 122, which account for 86.9&#37; of Japanese Y haplogroups), we estimate the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%, with the highest frequency in the Ainu (75%) and Ryukyuans (60%). On the other hand, Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages, with the highest contribution in Kyushu (62.3%) and lower contributions in Okinawa (37.8%) and northern Honshu (46.2%). Interestingly there is no evidence of Yayoi lineages in the Ainu.

...and...

In summary, our data suggest that Paleolithic male lineages entered Japan at least 12,000-20,000 years ago from Central Asia, and were isolated for thousands of years once land bridges between Japan and continental Asia disappeared at the end of the last glacial maximum (~12,000 years ago). More recently, Y chromosomes that originated in Southeast Asia expanded to Korea and Japan with the spread of wet rice agriculture. The ages and spatial patterns of haplogroups D and O in Japan are concordant with the hypothesis that Y chromosomes spread via a process of demic difussion during the Yayoi period (Sokal and Thomso, 1998). Each of the populations carrying these differentiated lineages made separate contributions to modern Japanese, both genetically and culturally. In contrast to previous models, we propose that the Yayoi Y chromosomes descend from prehistoric farmers that had their origins in Southeastern Asia, perhaps going back to the origin of agriculture in this region. This places the Yayoi in the context of other population expansions stimulated by the acquisition of agriculture, whereby farmer societies gained advantage over hunter-gatherer societies (Diamond and Bellwood, 2003). In this case, however the Jomon hunter gatherers may have held off the onslaught of farmers for thousands of years as a result of their highly succesful brand of subsistence.The data indicate, however, that Jomon genes survive in contemporary Japanese, possibly because their unique and varied culture complemented that of the immigrant famers.

From Michael F. Hammer et al. (2005)


Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.

A set of 81 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) was used to trace the origins of Paleolithic and Neolithic components of the Japanese paternal gene pool, and to determine the relative contribution of Jomon and Yayoi Y chromosome lineages to modern Japanese. Our global sample consisted of >2,500 males from 39 Asian populations, including six populations sampled from across the Japanese archipelago. Japanese populations were characterized by the presence of two major (D and O) and two minor (C and N) clades of Y chromosomes, each with several sub-lineages. Haplogroup D chromosomes were present at 34.7% and were distributed in a U-shaped pattern with the highest frequency in the northern Ainu and southern Ryukyuans. In contrast, haplogroup O lineages (51.8%) were distributed in an inverted U-shaped pattern with a maximum frequency on Kyushu. Coalescent analyses of Y chromosome short tandem repeat diversity indicated that haplogroups D and C began their expansions in Japan ~20,000 and ~12,000 years ago, respectively, while haplogroup O-47z began its expansion only ~4,000 years ago. We infer that these patterns result from separate and distinct genetic contributions from both the Jomon and the Yayoi cultures to modern Japanese, with varying levels of admixture between these two populations across the archipelago. The results also support the hypothesis of a Central Asian origin of Jomonese ancestors, and a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi, contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p31g0300430k6215/


* In geographic accuracy,SE Asia ( which has been false representative of Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia,these nations are nowhere near eastern part of Asia continent ) is China's coastal region of Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces.

bammbamm&pebbles
Oct 23, 2008, 06:35
The Fallacy of Sinophobia

There is a major misconception that has been pushing certain Japanese and Korean scholars to find non-Chinese origin for them to feel safe, but the source of their fear was a phantom, a propagandist claim within their neo-Confucian factions that used sinocentrist rhetoric of their times to gain unfair advantage over liberalist ideas.

One needs not fight a Chinese enemy that does not exist. The great diversity of the origin and evolution of Chinese civilisation that has been gaining steady momentum should rid the need for pursuing a non-Chinese origin for there is no such thing as a single Chinese origin.

It is to point out the fact that many Japnaese and Korean sources blindedly followed the "Out-of-Lake Baikal/Mongol Hypothesis of Japanese/Korean Origin" which has become rather popular during the 1970's in the so-called Egami's "Horserider Theory of Japanese Origin.".But this theory has few supporters nowadays,as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.

bammbamm&pebbles
Oct 24, 2008, 17:38
Korean males don't carry DNA YAP+ that 50&#37; of Japanese counterparts have.Ainu not even related to Korean populations ( past and present ),*Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%

Consider the *Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages,which has a Southeast Asian origin established by *2005 academic source.How is Japanese ethnicity place in NE Asian racial group not more genetically related to continental SE Asian peoples ?!

Overall modern day Koreans don't have a definite ' SE Asian ' origin component in their gene pool as is the case for both Chinese & Japanese are of ' dual NE & SE Asian origins '.

* http://www.springerlink.com/content/p31g0300430k6215/

Final point,nearly 50% of immigrants via Korea peninsula in 4th or 5th century were actually Chinese ancestry,their familiy registries recorded in Japan's Shoban 諸蕃.

http://www.myj7000.jp-biz.net/clan/03/03.htm

pipokun
Oct 24, 2008, 23:57
...
One needs not fight a Chinese enemy that does not exist. The great diversity of the origin and evolution of Chinese civilisation that has been gaining steady momentum should rid the need for pursuing a non-Chinese origin for there is no such thing as a single Chinese origin.
...

So true. And probably patriotic Han Chinese people may claim the Qin and the Tang dynasty were the great dynasties by the Han Chinese, but it is really hard to define what was the Han-Chinese ruled dynasty.

Color red
Oct 25, 2008, 09:33
According to genetic science, chinese are mostly composed of homogeneous people.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o142/kinnchii2/WorldYHaplo-1.jpg

(28) Chinese (Northern Han)
(31) Japanese
(32) Koreans
(33) Philipinos
(35) Malaysians

Majority of Northern Han Chinese shares a lineage with south east asian.

bammbamm&pebbles
Oct 25, 2008, 10:01
China is a wonderful diverse place same as America.


HGM2002 Poster Abstracts: 11. Genome Diversity
------------------------------------------------------------------

Study of Korean Male Origins

Sunghee Hong, Seong-Gene Lee, Yongsook Yoon, Kyuyoung Song
University of Ulsan College of Medicine, 388-1 Poongnap-dong, Songpa-ku, Seoul, Korea

Population studies of genetic markers such as HLA variation and mitochondrial DNA have been used to understand human origins, demographic and migration history. Recently, diversity on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome (NRY) has been applied to the study of human history. Since NRY is passed from father to son without recombination, polymorphisms in this region are valuable for investigating male-mediated gene flow and for complementing maternally based studies of mtDNA. Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of Korean. By using 38 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphism markers, we analyzed the genetic structure of 195 Korean males. The Korean males were characterized by a diverse set of 4 haplogroups (Groups IV, V, VII, X) and 14 haplotypes that were also present in Chinese. The most frequent haplogroup in Korean was Group VII (82.6&#37;). It was also the most frequent haplogroup in Chinese (95%) as well as in Japanese (45%). The frequencies of the haplogroups V, IV, and X were 15.4%, 1%, and 1%, respectively. The second most frequent haplogroup V in Korean was not present in Chinese, but its frequency was similar in Japanese.

http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0542.htm


* Professor Masao Oka on " Race,Ethnicity,Migration of Japan ",an archaeologist noted the Japanese people came from 5 population groups.

(1) north-eastern Asiatic Tungusic
(2) Austro-Asiatic
(3) Altaic group
(4) south-eastern Asiatic group of Austronesian origin
(5) ethnic group of Melanesian origin

http://books.google.com/books?id=_ffOut-Ay_8C&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=Oka+Masao&source=web&ots=Gu9GMHZmU_&sig=c-Pdpbru408IkAJhg_rwv_IXXqo&hl=en

newd
Nov 8, 2008, 14:04
More about the research:
In recent years, more archaeological and genetic evidence have been found in both eastern China and western Japan to lend credibility to this argument. Between 1996 and 1999, a team led by Satoshi Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, compared Yayoi remains found in Japan's Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han Dynasty (202 BC-8) in China's coastal Jiangsu province, and found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.[8] Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jōmon period. The genetic samples from three of the 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains.
Surprisingly, Japanese also display the highest frequency of haplogroup O3a5, which is a Han Chinese and Sino-Tibetan specific O3 branch.
Xue et. al.
Japanese
Haplogroup O3a5 (O3e) 10/47= 23&#37;
This frequency is about 5% higher than the frequency of O3a5 among Manchus, Koreans and other Northeast Asians.
For North Koreans, the frequency of O3a5 is lower than some Tungusic populations. Overall, the Koreanic haplogroup O3 were the least influenced by Sinitic populations.

Whereas pure haplogroup C3 (M217) was observed at a high frequency among Tungusic (20%) and Koreanic (16%) populations. The frequency of haplogroup C3 among Japanese was only 1%. This means Japanese origins were NOT from Siberia.

Haplogroup D was observed among Japanese (25%) and Tibetans (40%). Was also observed among Han Chinese, Mongolians and Koreans.

DNA sequence SNP study done by Japanese researchers in 2005.

Biggest contributor of DNA of each East Asian people is bolded
Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Uniquely Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Uniquely Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Uniquely Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

The biggest components in Japanese are Chinese, Korean, Okinawan.
It's a fact that Korean peninsula was not as isolated as Japanese islands. But, this meant one people could settle on the peninsula, but Japan became an island of migrants. This is maybe why Koreans have the least Japanese and Chinese components, whereas Japanese and Chinese have higher Japanese and Chinese components to their DNA.

grapefruit
Nov 30, 2008, 14:19
More about the research:
In recent years, more archaeological and genetic evidence have been found in both eastern China and western Japan to lend credibility to this argument. Between 1996 and 1999, a team led by Satoshi Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, compared Yayoi remains found in Japan's Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han Dynasty (202 BC-8) in China's coastal Jiangsu province, and found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.[8]
This is interesting. If you try Japanese cuisine and Huaiyang cuisine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaiyang_cuisine), you will find out that these two share a lot. Some of my Chinese friends even say that Shanghai dialect (Wu Dialect) sounds like Japanese :blush:.

sonatinefan
Dec 7, 2008, 05:31
A book which investigates the relationship between the Japanese and Koguryoic Languages:

Koguryo: The Language of Japan's Continental Relatives: An Introduction to the Historical-Comparative Study of the Japanese-Koguryoic Languages

grapefruit
Dec 7, 2008, 06:53
A book which investigates the relationship between the Japanese and Koguryoic Languages:
Koguryo: The Language of Japan's Continental Relatives: An Introduction to the Historical-Comparative Study of the Japanese-Koguryoic Languages

Well,the relation between Japanese, Korean, and other Altaic languages has not been settled. It's hard to say which scholar's argument holds true.

sonatinefan
Dec 7, 2008, 07:24
Indeed, these are contested points. Nonetheless, a strong case for relationship with Koguryoan has been made here.

caster51
Dec 7, 2008, 08:16
according to chosun Ilb,Korean DNA is middle of the Chinese DNA and the Japanese one
I dont know what the middle means...
http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20081205000032

grapefruit
Dec 7, 2008, 09:44
Indeed, these are contested points. Nonetheless, a strong case for relationship with Koguryoan has been made here. Any scholar who asserts particular connection to proto-Japanese would say their theory is more convincing than others. A quick googling led to me the following article severely criticizing the book:


Unfortunately, Beckwithfs ambitious work is heavily flawed in many aspects, of
which I will provide only a few examples. First, I deplore the general opacity of his
methodology, since most of his reconstructions are his own, quite different from the
ones adopted in mainstream Chinese (Baxter 1992; Sagart 1999; Starostin 1989, 1998-
2003) and Japanese (Martin 1987) historical phonology, and it is unclear how they were
arrived at. His comparisons thus use reconstructions that are too often problematic,
sometimes simply incorrect, or, worse, just circular.

The review concluded,


In conclusion, Beckwithfs book is a valuable attempt to have a new look at the
Koguryo fragments, within the broader scale of a global ethnolinguistic study of
Ancient Eastern Asia. Nevertheless, its too many methodological shortcomings forbid
us to accept Beckwithfs reconstructions and conclusions, although it is quite clear that
some of the Koguryo place names indeed represent in all likelihood a language related
to Japanese that was once spoken in the center of the Korean peninsula.

http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/19/41/11/PDF/review-Beckwith-Koguryo.pdf

Adulado
Dec 7, 2008, 10:23
Koguryoic relationship theory is quite old, I had made a valid quotation on another thread:

"The essence of my model is as follows. I contend that
the Jōmon culture (c. 10,000–300 BCE) on the Japanese
archipelago was the product of Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian
people, while the Yayoi culture (c. 300 BCE-300 CE) was the
product of Kaya (Karak) people from the southern Korean
peninsula together with Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian
aborigines. The proto-Japanese people, speaking proto-
Japanese language, were formed during the Yayoi period. I
contend that the Kaya dialect of the Korean language provided
the basic structure of the proto-Japanese language although
lexically (in loan words) and phonologically (in sound), the
influence of Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages was
substantial. I also regard the early tomb culture (c. 300-375 CE)
as an extension of the Yayoi culture.
The late tomb culture (c. 375-675 CE) was, however,
brought about by the Yamato kingdom, the first unified state
on the Japanese islands that was newly established at the end
of the fourth century by the Paekche people from the Korean
peninsula. Syntactically (in patterns of word arrangement) and
morphologically (in systems of word formation), the similarity
between the Korean and Japanese languages was very much
strengthened. However, the lexical and phonological influence
of the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages cast a long
shadow on the subsequent evolution of the Japanese language.
Therefore, by the early ninth century at the latest, due to ever
increasing lexical, semantic (in meaning) and phonological
differences, the people of the Korean peninsula and the people
of the Japanese islands could no longer directly communicate
with each other without interpreters."

My observation is that formation of Yamato coincide with the findings of early Kaya tombs and Kaya styled objects inside the tombs.

grapefruit
Dec 7, 2008, 11:49
I
contend that the Kaya dialect of the Korean language provided
the basic structure of the proto-Japanese language although
lexically (in loan words) and phonologically (in sound), the
influence of Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages was
substantial.
Can you clarify the status of the proto-Japanese language? Was it a pidgin/creol or a second language spoken by the speakers of the Kaya dialect or by the speakers of the an Ainu or Malayo-Polynesian language?




Syntactically (in patterns of word arrangement) and
morphologically (in systems of word formation), the similarity
between the Korean and Japanese languages was very much
strengthened. However, the lexical and phonological influence
of the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages cast a long
shadow on the subsequent evolution of the Japanese language.
Therefore, by the early ninth century at the latest, due to ever
increasing lexical, semantic (in meaning) and phonological
differences, the people of the Korean peninsula and the people
of the Japanese islands could no longer directly communicate
with each other without interpreters.
This sounds like the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages were the substrata of the proto-Japanese language. So, are you saying the proto-Japanese language started as a second language spoken by the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian people?

caster51
Dec 7, 2008, 15:28
i think Kaya ppl was wajin.
they were not Today's korean origin

Adulado
Dec 7, 2008, 20:56
Can you clarify the status of the proto-Japanese language? Was it a pidgin/creol or a second language spoken by the speakers of the Kaya dialect or by the speakers of the an Ainu or Malayo-Polynesian language?



This sounds like the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages were the substrata of the proto-Japanese language. So, are you saying the proto-Japanese language started as a second language spoken by the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian people?


It was pretty much like the early Germanic migrants to UK who led a segregated life from natives and didn't mix (much) with them. Japanese commoners at that time didn't wear clothes, only nobles did.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm

caster51
Dec 7, 2008, 22:04
Japanese commoners at that time didn't wear clothes, only nobles did.

:blush:................

grapefruit
Dec 8, 2008, 00:06
It was pretty much like the early Germanic migrants to UK who led a segregated life from natives and didn't mix (much) with them. Japanese commoners at that time didn't wear clothes, only nobles did.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm

If they were segregated, it does not make sense. Why were basic words vastly adopted from the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages? In England, such adoption of words from the Celtic did not take place, did it?

sonatinefan
Dec 9, 2008, 04:12
Granted, that review isn't glowing. But even with its critical tone, note this excerpt from the portion you quoted:

"although it is quite clear that some of the Koguryo place names indeed represent in all likelihood a language related to Japanese that was once spoken in the center of the Korean peninsula."

caster51
Dec 9, 2008, 15:33
"although it is quite clear that some of the Koguryo place names indeed represent in all likelihood a language related to Japanese that was once spoken in the center of the Korean peninsula."

???:blush:

I think some documments are needed in these opinions.
i think chinese ones are good as third person.

you should explain okinawan language and Yamato language..
why does Okinawa language that is further than Korea look like Japanese?

about altaic...
if you can not speak, how do you express by body language.
for example, "I kill you"(svo) how do you express by body language?
I think "I you kill"(sov) is more natural by body language..
The possibility of the altaic grammar as the conversation to be generated naturally is high.
however ,writing system is another story


anyway. koguryo ppl and Kudara were not today's korean's origin.
Kudara's dominant ppl and commoners spoke different languages.

Adulado
Dec 9, 2008, 23:30
i think Kaya ppl was wajin.
they were not Today's korean origin


anyway. koguryo ppl and Kudara were not today's korean's origin.
Kudara's dominant ppl and commoners spoke different languages.

lawl...:clueless:


i think chinese ones are good as third person.

I think not since qinese documents are good reference for distorted history.


you should explain okinawan language and Yamato language..
why does Okinawa language that is further than Korea look like Japanese?

Till now no one explained the early tombs found in Japan and keeps being neglected.


If they were segregated, it does not make sense. Why were basic words vastly adopted from the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages? In England, such adoption of words from the Celtic did not take place, did it?

It did, but just because similar migration occurred that doesn't mean subsequent events happened in the same way also, depend on geographical position, social and political situation, among other things that might have affected the evolution of the Japanese language.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6361Lovis.htm

sonatinefan
Dec 10, 2008, 02:16
Supposing a relationship between a Koguryoan language and Japanese, there would likely be an interaction with a strong pacific island/austronesian substratum as well.

sonatinefan
Dec 10, 2008, 03:23
Wikipedia (whose value as a source is admittedly somewhat questionable) lists the Koguryo hypothesis as the most widely accepted theory of relationship:

(search wikipedia for "classification of Japanese language" sorry, not been a member long enough to post urls)

caster51
Dec 10, 2008, 08:42
Wikipedia (whose value as a source is admittedly somewhat questionable) lists the Koguryo hypothesis as the most widely accepted theory of relationship

many koguryo refugees might came to Japan
so was like him
http://nippon-kichi.jp/article_list.do;jsessionid=7720707AFCAE7FBCEA89E37 9301B655E?p=2025&ml_lang=en

渤海 Balhae sent the mission to japan 37times for 200years from 727.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balhae
they say Balha and Japan were brother country.
it was because they want to restrain enemy, silla..

However....
dont forget this one....


1. The history of Korea has quite a lot of taboos. One of them is the fact that ancient Japan "ruled" Korea.

2. In this age, Japan was fought off by Goguryeo. But this history is not written in Korean history textbooks. The reason comes from the fact that Japan's expansion of this age conflicts with their delusion, which is "Ancient Korea brought first culture and civilization to Japan." .

3. There are quite a lot delusions, which are nonobjective, in historical view of Korea. But we should not leave their delusions lay, just because they are the people who "can believe only what they want to believe". Because their delusions distort the facts, often hurt national interests unreasonably, and can encourage even their territorial ambition.

4. Korean side avoid public places or objective methods to end many problems caused by their delusions. Instead of them, they try to force their "historical view" by propaganda. This applies to the kumdo problem.

5. The expansion of ancient Japan is a desirable instance which was settled by the objective evidence
1. Why isn't Korea proud of defeating ancient Japan?

There are some unwritten facts in Korean history textbooks(note1).

As I wrote before, the modernization and independence by Japan is one of such historic taboos.

Related articles 1 2

Now I will introduce another historic taboo, which is ancient Japan's expansion to Korean Peninsula. Korean history textbooks do not describe this fact, too.

Japan's expansion is also recorded on Gwanggaeto(The king of Goguryeo(B.C.37?-A.D.668) stele, which is designated a World Heritage Site. But some historians of Korea or from Korea have claimed that this record did not originally supported ancient Japan's expansion because Japanese Army had altered this record. Though their claim turned out to be a groundless accusation, their claim have been preventing this stele from being subjected to study for years.

But do you wonder why Korean historians want to deny fighting off the invasion of ancient Japan ?
Korean textbooks describe proudly they fought off Hideyoshi's expansion. They also describes proudly Gwanggaeto fought off ancient Japan's expansion as his stele.
Why don't they accept ancient Japan's expansion?

2.Because they want to believe "they had given Japan first culture and civilization".

The reason seems to be their fantasy, based on petit Sinocentrism, which is that Korea imparted culture and civilization to Japan in the first place.

It is true that their textbooks(translated version) describe how many culture came from Korean Peninsula one after the other. But most of them seem to originate from China and I can see some description includes evident mistakes though I am not very familiar with this age.
Additionally their textbooks go so far as to describe that Korea "civilized" Japan on the assumption that they had been excellent in terms of culture.

Additionally I have seen several times the Korean messages on bbs with translational function that Japanese were the same as Aborigine (The person, who posted this article, seemed to use this word in discriminatory connotation) till Koreans came to Japan.
They seem to think Japan had neither culture nor civilization before Buddhism came to Japan in the 6th century(The fact is that ancient Japan ruled the territory from Kinki to Kyushu till the latter half of the 4th century.).

I am surprised their surprising view(Korea gave Japan culture and civilization) which seem to be general view to many Koreans who have been educated in Korea. It is inconvenient that Japan expanded to Korea before to them.(As I will write later, this view conflicts with the Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations (Sangokushiki in Japanese)).

I have a feeling that many Koreans (including Korean descents) give priority to their "pride" than historic truth in education and research. The same can be said to their view on the inscription on Gwanggaeto stele.

3.Now, Korea began to force their delusion on the world!

By the way, I was surprised to find a Korean textbook describes Baekje(an old dynasty of Korean Peninsula(?-A.D.660) ruled Kyushu, which is a part of Japan. Perhaps any historical record did not support this story, or Baekje's expansion to Japan has no foundation. But it would seem that one historical record is considered to be a ground.

The record say Baekje ruled "some islands" other than apart of Korean Peninsula.
-> The words, "some islands" "must" include Kyushu, a part of Japan, by extension!

This "must" theory made Baekje have expanded to Japan. Certainly Kyushu is a big island..

But watching this, I can't sit complacent anymore, only complaining they are the people can believe only what they want to believe.
Because, for example, such an incoherent delusion might make Lee Seungman(the first president of south Korea) demand a part of Kyushu as their new territory. Additionally, a Korean political organization have a groundbreaking claim which is "returning Tushima island". Not only that, a local public entity designated "the day of Tsushima", and there is a stele which have a inscription "Tsushima is the Korean territory"! Oh, this stele was established recently in case.
But then when did Tsushima belong to Korea at all?

This applies Takeshima(Korean name: Dokdo) problem and "Sea of Japan" problem. The former problem is Korean government's illegal occupation of Japanese island. The latter one is Koreans complain the name of "Sea of Japan". They claim that the international name of "Sea of Japan" should be changed into "East sea" which is local name in Korea.
Their delusions are causing these problems. In other words, these problems are occurring because they shout "Admit our delusions!" at Japan and the world.

4.They force their delusion by propaganda.

They always try to force their delusions mostly by their propaganda about these problems. This also applies to "kumdo" problem. More or less they never want to end the matters in a public place or by objective methods.

About Takeshima problem, Korean government never stand the trial of International Court of Justice, though they agreed on it when concluding normalization treaty between Japan and South Korea.
About "Sea of Japan" problem, the Korean government said they agreed to negotiate only when Japanese government made concession to Korea. This is the same as refusing negotiation. Instead of negotiation, an organization of Korea named VANK, makes many Koreans or Korean descents, including elementary school students, send excessively large number of e-mails to many famous sites with world maps to change their maps. VANK receives subsidies from Korean government.

It goes without saying that international sporting events are just what they need to make propaganda from their eyes. For example, WC, WBC and Olympic games.

Hmm...when writing this, I'm going to be sick.

5. A desirable instance which was settled by the objective evidence.

I will introduce you the newspaper article about Gwanggaeto stele. This article reports this stele's inscription conclusively proved not to have been altered(=this stele supports Japan's expansion to Peninsula.).

I think this is a desirable instance settled by the objective evidence.


--------- quote ----------

The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele was found

This copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one.

The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele(in the northeastern Chinese province of Jilin) was found in China. This rubbed copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one, including descriptions about ancient Japan. This fact became clear by Jo Kenshin's study. He is a professor at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. He majors in Japanese ancient history.

His study put an end to the controversy over the inscription on this stele from 70's. Some people claimed that Imperial Japanese Army had altered this inscription, but this theory could be proved incorrect conclusively.

The inscription on this stele says:
"Since 391, Wa(Japan) crossed sea and defeated Baekje, ?? and Silla and made them subjects."
In 1883, this rubbed copy was gotten by Sakoh Kagenobu, who was an officer of Japan Army General Staff. Japanese Army General Staff concluded that Japan had ruled Korean Peninsula in ancient times.

After the war, some people questioned the credibility of Sakoh's rubbed copy. In 1972, Lee, professor emeritus at Wako University, claimed that Japanese Army had altered this inscription to justify their expanding to Korean Peninsula. Lee's theory aroused great controversy between the researchers from 4 countries, Japan, China, Korea and North Korea. Since then the widely held theory was propounded, but this theory did not put an end to the controversy over the inscription under the condition that it's difficult to verify theories with the real thing.

Jo professor have been studying about 50 real rubbed copies in various nations of East Asia. Year before last, he found a rubbed copy copied in 1881 at the auction of Peking. This copy is older than Sakoh's one, which had been considered as the oldest until then. He captured this and Sakoh's to his PC and compared them. Then he found there is no sign of intentional alteration. This year, the outcomes of his study was published in the book, "The study of rubbed copies of Gwanggaeto Stele(TokyoDo)".
Jo professor stressed the significance of his study and said " This result will release us from proving the emperor-centered historic view of old Japan or Japanese army's involvement, and Gwanggaeto Stele will be appreciated as a pure historical record to reveal the history of East Asia from the 4th to 5th century." But a widely-accepted theory says this inscription describes Japan as a more powerful nation than it really was. This theory explains that the inscription exaggerates the achievement of Gwanggaeto who defeated Japan. Though Imperial Japanese Army's alteration is denied, this does not automatically mean ancient Japan ruled the whole Korean Peninsula.

Yoshimura Takehiko, a professor at Meiji University majors in ancient history, appreciated this study and said "The rubbed copy found recently is so credible that we can say this copy ended the great controversy for long years. The method of study is comparing pictures in PC, which was unpredictable 10 years ago. This can become possible in I.T. age."

On the contrary, Lee professor emeritus disputed, "He identified the year copied on the strength of the attachment to this rubbed copy. But there is a doubt whether the copy is a real thing. This study did not clear the suspicion against Japanese army completely."

Footnote: Gwanggaeto Stele
This stele was built (Jilin Province) in 414, after 2 years after Gwanggaeto died, to reward his accomplishment. Gwanggaeto was the king of Goguryeo(0? - A.D.668) which ruled from the north China to the north Korean Peninsula. This stele is 6.2 meters high, and the tallest gravestone in east Asia. The outcomes of his wars and the other accomplishment are incused with 1800 characters. In 1880, an official of China(Sino) discovered this. This stele is designated a World Heritage Site with tombs nearby.

On the the 19th page of the Yomiuri newspaper morning edition 2006/04/14

--------- unquote ----------

This inscription is not the only record about ancient Japan's expanding to Korean Peninsula.

For example, Chinese book on history, Chronicles of Sui Dynasty("Zui Sho" in Japanese) describes Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power.

This book says;
Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power and have many rare things. Each of them respects Japan, and dispatches envoys who always come and go to Japan.

Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations(Sangokushiki in Japanese) says Baekje and Silla send their princes to Japan as hostages.
This book says;
In 397, Baekje establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Chonjiwan to Japan as a hostage.
In 402, Silla establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Mikishin to Japan as a hostage.

Japanese book on history, Chronicles of Japan("Nihonshoki" in Japanese) also records their expansion to Korean Peninsula, though there are various theories as to when each event happened.

These records are compliment one another and do not conflict with another(They are only representative examples).

These facts show that ancient Japan really ruled at least a part of Korean Peninsula.

I think this operation turned out to be improper. They had better claim Japan had invaded their nations without using such big words as "We had given Japan first culture and civilization!". And should they demand an apology from the invasion of over1600 years?

http://www.geocities.jp/bxninjin2004/data_room/13/Gwanggaeto.html


think Kaya ppl was wajin.
they were not Today's korean origin
anyway. koguryo ppl and Kudara were not today's korean's origin.
Kudara's dominant ppl and commoners spoke different languages.
lawl...

I think you should read Book of the Later Han,Book of Sui
etc...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Later_Han

sonatinefan
Dec 10, 2008, 09:18
Well, to be honest that stuff you quoted above strikes me as thoroughly clouded by nationalistic bias. I think Japan's heritage is glorious enough as it is-It doesn't require embellishment of this kind.

grapefruit
Dec 10, 2008, 14:30
It did, but just because similar migration occurred that doesn't mean subsequent events happened in the same way also, depend on geographical position, social and political situation, among other things that might have affected the evolution of the Japanese language.

This is not an explanation for language borrowing or generation. It sounds like an excuse for not being able to explain the facts with the model.
If the two groups are segregated and the outsiders have adopt the local language, often lexicon, syntax, and phonology resemble the local language. If you are proposing pidignization/creolization, the substrate language influences phonology and syntax to some extent, but lexicon is hardly influenced. You should study more about the process of piginization and creolization, before proposing a model of language creation.





It did, but just because similar migration occurred that doesn't mean subsequent events happened in the same way also, depend on geographical position, social and political situation, among other things that might have affected the evolution of the Japanese language.



Come on. Place names do not count as basic vocabulary. :blush: If the influence of Celitic words is limited to place names, I have to conclude there is no lexicon from Celtic to English.

caster51
Dec 11, 2008, 20:29
Talhae of Silla
Talhae of Silla (?-80, r. 57-80) was the fourth king of Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. He is commonly called Talhae Isageum, isageum being the royal title in early Silla


He was born in a small kingdom 1000 li northeast of Wa (Japan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla#cite_note-0

Hogong
Hogong was a minister of Silla in the age of nation-building. It is recorded that the details of his tribal and clan affiliation were unclear, but he was originally from the Wa people of Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogong

asob
May 19, 2009, 05:35
Aynu are definitely NOT Caucasians. They are proto-Mongoloids, but not Negroids .

Ainu are Negroids. Ainu have haplogroup D, which is the same as Andanman Islander and is definetely Negroids. Actually, Majority of Japanese are Negroid and Australoid.
- Haplogroup D: 38&#37; (Same as Andanman Islander, Negroid)
- Haplogroup C: 15% (Same as Australian Arboritive, Australoid)
so 53 % of Japanese are of Negroid/Australoid origin, only less than 47% are
of Mongoloid, which is half Korean (O2b) and half Chinese (O3/O1)

The funny thing is that Japanese always boast their Caucasoid origin of Ainu turn out to be Negroid origin.:okashii:
But Japan is quite different from Asian mainlander since it is majority of Negroid/Australoid and the asian mainlanders are always mongoloid majority.
Japanese culture has a lot of its unique features. Korean are too much affected by the Chinese.

In any case, Japan is quite successful in modern world. Be proud of your own achievements and be confident with own your origins. Frankly, I am always lol whenever I read those tons of Japanese 'theses' to prove Ainu are of Caucasoid to show Japanese superior to other Asian. Some whites supermacist try to prove that Negroid/Australoid people are dead dumb, now Japanese provide an excellent counter example. Japanese have highest avg IQ in the world although they are majority of Negroid/Australoid people.
Go! Negroids. Go! Australoids. Go! Japanese brethers.

caster51
May 21, 2009, 22:07
which is half Korean (O2b)

??

O2b was origin of around Yangtze River's civilization that was defeated by Yellow River's one


I am always lol whenever I read those tons of Japanese 'theses' to prove Ainu are of Caucasoid to show Japanese superior to other Asian.

???
I think no Japanese says Ainu are of Caucasoid

Trollhattan
May 22, 2009, 06:13
Source for O2b ?

The speculation on Japanese origins takes a bizarre turn,I now read Australoid @ some anthro forums.

I think it's the Westerners appreciated the idea of Ainu being of Caucasoid race so they can stake an ancestral claim on Japanese people.

caster51
May 22, 2009, 16:04
http://img.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/2a/62/amatsukaze1/folder/1475373/img_1475373_55103769_0?1220884218


D2
http://blackshadow.seesaa.net/image/WS0060.jpg


Overall, however, the highest proportions of haplogroup O2a have been found among the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nicobar Islands, a territorial possession of India that is located just south of the Andaman Islands and just north of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, and among the aboriginal inhabitants of Orissa state in eastern India. The Nicobarese aborigines and the Juang people of Orissa, India are nearly 100&#37; haplogroup O2a. The Korku people in central India (Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra states) are also about 80% haplogroup O2a.

As for haplogroup O2b, the highest frequencies are found among Japanese and Koreans (up to 40% among some samples of Koreans and up to 35% among some samples of Japanese), but the O2b Y-DNA found among Japanese is mostly O2b1a-47z, whereas among Koreans it is mostly O2b1*(x47z); in other words, most of the Japanese haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes have a further mutation that is absent from the majority of Korean O2b Y-chromosomes. This distinction between the Korean variety of O2b and the Japanese variety of O2b seems to be quite sharp; only about 5% or fewer Koreans belong to the typically Japanese O2b1a (versus about 22% of Japanese; however, frequencies among Korean samples vary from approx. 0% to approx. 12% for this subclade, suggesting a possibility of significant regional variation within the Korean population in regards to the occurrence of haplogroup O2b1a), and the same proportion of Japanese (about 5%, but varying from approx. 2% to approx. 7% depending on the sample) belong to the typically Korean subclade, O2b1*.

Also, it seems that the haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes found in Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Thailand, etc.) are divided between haplogroup O2b1*(x47z) and O2b1a-47z, just as the O2b Y-chromosomes found in Korea and Japan are divided between these two subgroups. This suggests that the 47z mutation that defines the (typically Japanese) haplogroup O2b1a-47z should have occurred prior to the interaction(s) that brought haplogroup O2b1* and O2b1a to their present locations in Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, and Korea. The O2b Y-chromosomes found in Manchuria, however, apparently belong only to haplogroup O2b*(xO2b1), which suggests that these haplogroup O2b ancestors split off and migrated into the ancestral Manchurian population prior to the emergence of the subclades, O2b1 and O2b1a.

Hokkado Ainu moved to north from South..
then, they were isolated in hokkaido

Trollhattan
May 22, 2009, 17:00
Thanks ... caster51

Alright,the O2b Y-DNA found among Japanese is mostly O2b1a-47z.How is it trace to Yangtze River's civilization ?!

caster51
May 22, 2009, 22:53
Thanks ... caster51
Alright,the O2b Y-DNA found among Japanese is mostly O2b1a-47z.How is it trace to Yangtze River's civilization ?!

Japan is a culture of rice farm that was origin of Yangtze River
I think The Japanese culture very similar with hmong, lao, vietnamese..
A lot of Japanese will sentimentalize there..


http://www.kodai-bunmei.net/blog/miyaozokuA-0031.jpg

and this one..
http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=618056&postcount=44
However, the Jomon culture is a base in them

Trollhattan
May 23, 2009, 10:59
Japan is a culture of rice farm that was origin of Yangtze River.I think The Japanese culture very similar with Hmong & Vietnamese..





How did you draw the conclusion of any past ties between Japanese and those two SE Asian ethnic groups ?! Were some of Japanese forefathers related to them and can you provide pre-historic tribal identities ?

caster51
May 23, 2009, 19:35
Japan is a drift of various culture and ppls.
of course, those two SE Asian ethnic groups are one of them


Were some of Japanese forefathers related to them and can you provide pre-historic tribal identities ?
If rice farm is seen, it might be clear.
they could could get to Kyushu in Japan if they get on small ship by the Japan Current
for example, Utagaki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utagaki
this is seen in SE asia even today
Japan blue is similar with hmong color..
an interesting legend, it is said he was hamong or miao..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Fu
however, this was around BC 225...

anyway, if you consider boat ppl from vietnam in japan at vietnam war, it is easy to guess.
I think it is easier than from korea Peninsula
http://images.google.co.jp/images?hl=ja&lr=&um=1&q=&#37;E9%95%B7%E6%B1%9F%E6%96%87%E6%98%8E%E3%80%80%E6 %97%A5%E6%9C%AC&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20

Maciamo
Dec 19, 2009, 18:40
I have updated the article The Origins of the Japanese people (http://www.wa-pedia.com/culture/origins_japanese_people.shtml) for the second time since last year (and fourth time since 2002). I have added a comprehensive genetic analysis of Y-DNA and mtDNA lineages in Japan, identifying the Yayoi and Jomon origins.

Trollhattan
Dec 20, 2009, 15:07
Maciamo,do you consider the English people are of German-Scandinavian origins or Anglo-Saxon-Jute & Viking origins ?

Japanese certainly know who their ancestors were,mainly Jomon & Yayoi not proto-Mongoloid Siberians & Sino-Korean peoples as they often refer being " 50&#37; 縄文人 " & " 50% 弥生人 " amongst themselves.

Loving
Dec 21, 2009, 23:51
The Ainu haplogroup formed about 40&#37; of the modern Japanese fatherline,and in fact Ainus have nothing to do with Caucasians genetically,they are more related to the Africans(Ainus typical haplogroup D,which is closely linked to the modern Africans( DE and E).While the physical anthropologists often grouped the Ainus together with some south pacific islanders.

Loving
Dec 21, 2009, 23:56
There is no proof whether the haplogroup O was from south China or Southeast Asian,but one thing for sure is, it has formed the majority of East and Southeast Asian populations today.Among the eastAsians,Han Chinese haplogroup O is over 60&#37; on the average(higher in South Chinese than North Chinese),Koreans 80%+,the Japanese got the least (50%+)

Loving
Dec 22, 2009, 00:06
O2b/O2b1 are the largest Haplogroup component in modern Japanese which was also from the South,the discovery of higher diversity of O2b in South Chinese provinces and southeastAsia suggest its origin was in South China or SoutheastAsia,O2b is also observed in some Southern Tungusic populations such as Manchu at low frequency which is probably due to the influence from Korean peninsula and South Han Chinese

Maciamo
Dec 23, 2009, 19:33
Maciamo,do you consider the English people are of German-Scandinavian origins or Anglo-Saxon-Jute & Viking origins ?

That's the same thing. It's just terminology. Anyway, English people have more 'ancient Briton' blood that was traditionally acknowledged. There is an east to west gradient in the "germanicity" of the English. I have written on Eupedia about the Genetics of the British and Irish people (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24907).



Japanese certainly know who their ancestors were,mainly Jomon & Yayoi not proto-Mongoloid Siberians & Sino-Korean peoples as they often refer being " 50% “ꕶl " & " 50% –퐶l " amongst themselves.

Yayoi = Sino-Korean
Jomon = Paleolithic inhabitants of Japan, ultimately from Austronesia and Siberia.

The ratio isn't 50-50. It is more Jomon in Okinawa, Tohoku and Hokkaido, and more Yayoi elsewhere.

Maciamo
Dec 23, 2009, 19:46
The Ainu haplogroup formed about 40% of the modern Japanese fatherline,and in fact Ainus have nothing to do with Caucasians genetically,they are more related to the Africans(Ainus typical haplogroup D,which is closely linked to the modern Africans( DE and E).While the physical anthropologists often grouped the Ainus together with some south pacific islanders.

We all descend from Africans. The Ainu descend from some of the earliest humans to leave Africa, around 50,000 years ago. The first wave of modern humans to colonise Europe only did so 40,000 years ago, and a lot of the modern genes didn't leave the Middle East until 10,000 to 3,000 years ago.



There is no proof whether the haplogroup O was from south China or Southeast Asian,but one thing for sure is, it has formed the majority of East and Southeast Asian populations today.Among the eastAsians,Han Chinese haplogroup O is over 60% on the average(higher in South Chinese than North Chinese),Koreans 80%+,the Japanese got the least (50%+).

Ultimately haplogroup O arose in Central Asia during the Ice Age, just like the Eurasian haplogroups R1a and R1b. There are still O* people among the modern Tajiks, Crimean Tatars, Uzbeks, Kazakhs and Uyghurs. The other subclades developed after the migration to East Asia. I can imagine that haplogroup O around around Tajikistan around 35,000 years ago, just before East Asia was recolonised from Central Asia.