What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

[Trollhattan]

That's the same thing.It's just terminology.

Anyway, English people have more ' ancient Briton ' blood that was traditionally acknowledged. There is an east to west gradient in the "germanicity" of the English.





I don't agree in the case of Japanese,no historians could identify the actual ethnic tribes ( i.e. Anglo-Saxon-Jute settled in parts of present day UK & the Norse in later centuries ) known as Yamato & etc and very few modern Koreans & Chinese share ancestral roots to those left the Asia continent for Japan islands pre-13th century.

Exact scenario for the Japanese,we all thought their ancestors were the Koreans & Chinese but in fact have signifant ancient proto-Mongoloid indigenous genetic component.






The ratio isn't 50-50.





They usually word it " half & half "

[Maciamo]

I don't agree in the case of Japanese,no historians could identify the actual ethnic tribes ( i.e. Anglo-Saxon-Jute settled in parts of present day UK & the Norse in later centuries ) known as Yamato & etc and very few modern Koreans & Chinese share ancestral roots to those left the Asia continent for Japan islands pre-13th century.
Exact scenario for the Japanese,we all thought their ancestors were the Koreans & Chinese but in fact have signifant ancient proto-Mongoloid indigenous genetic component.


Did you read the updated article The Origins of the Japanese people (http://www.wa-pedia.com/culture/origins_japanese_people.shtml) ? I suppose that what you call "ancient proto-Mongoloid indigenous genetic component" equates to Y-haplogroup C and D and mt-haplogroups N9 and M7a ?

[caster51]

ahira(Asherah)>>hashira(柱）:lol:
Asherah pole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah_pole




4v68XGRYTZo
9kbhyKxwJYU
myanKsdETSM
UEphC_eXpbs

Sumo:lol:
U9NqwW6Bka8

Part1 Eng/sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-8y96LVlsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uVVrePl9e8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoowLHXVTvI

some of them came to japan, too?


the Yayoi people crossed the see from Korea to Kyushu, bringing with them a brand new culture, based on wet rice cultivation and horses

there was no wet rice in korea peninsula at that time


Genome-wide SNP genotypes of the Japanese show that people from northern Japan (Tohoku and Hokkaido) are the most distantly related to the Han Chinese, while those from Western Japan (Kyushu, Chugoku, Kinki) are the closest. This confirms the theory of the continental Yayoi invasion from Kyushu

are there Yayois Genome-wide SNP genotypes ? I mean korean or chinese one?
more than 40% of kyushu ppl have D2. it is higher than average.
it means they raped Yayoi ppl?


Native Korean and Japanese words are often related when comparing Old Korean and Old Japanese, but few of them are really obvious to modern speakers.

what old korean language was related? what is old korean language?
http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~had26900/topics_&_items2/nihongo_chosengo.htm



However, thanks to natural affinities in sensitivities and tastes, South Korea and Japan appear to be culturally closer as ever nowadays
It is further if it says culturally.
Chinese, mongolian are far close.


Btw
Why did the Christianity come to Japan delaying behind the Buddhism 1000 years or more ..Francisco de Xavier ?
ridiculous... it took 1000years behind?
It　would have come to Japan earlier than him.

[caster51]

Tengu, torah...
Jl44umw3VjI

[Trollhattan]

It is further if it says culturally.

Chinese, mongolian are far close.






Koreans & Japanese have been culturally bonded by Chinese civilization,the former nationality is the most " Sinicized " East Asian people.

Koreans are culturally & geneitcally closest to the Chinese & Mongols.

[caster51]

the former nationality is the most " Sinicized " East Asian people

I think china and korea even asia are getting "Japanized":D

[Trollhattan]

I think china and korea even asia are getting " Japanized ":D





It's a reality through out Asia,I can see a smile on your face :D

China should've followed Japan in modernization instead of antagonized the country and acted big when it was in obvious decline with " primitive " weaponery included kung-fu :blush:

[JichaelMordon]

geocities .jp/bxninjin2004/data_room/13/Gwanggaeto.html
Way to many lies within this link. Its riddled with nationalistic bias. No serious historian would take that link seriously. They make the claim that Japan somehow conquered Korea in ancient times. Despite the fact that the three major Korean kingdoms at the time had iron and bronze weapons, armor, horse cavalry, chariots, larger population and organized government. Of which Japan at the time had none or very little of.
The Gwangetto stele makes none of the claims the author makes. The passage within the stele he is referring to is heavily damaged and can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

read passage below


The Imperial Japanese Army General Staff Office, which learned about the stele and obtained a rubbed copy from its member Kagenobu Sakōo in 1884, became intrigued over a passage describing the king's military campaigns for the sinmyo 辛卯 year of 391 (sinmyo being a year designator in the sexagenary cycle that characterizes the traditional Sino-oriented East Asian calendar).[1] Some officers in the Japanese army and navy conducted research during the 1880s and the rubbed copy was later published in 1889. Most Japanese scholars, notably Masatomo Suga, interpreted the passage as follows (brackets designating a "reading into" the text where the character is not legible):
"And in the sinmyo year the Wa (Japanese) came and crossed the sea and defeated Baekje, [unknown], and [Sil]la and made them subjects."
They presumed that Wa referred to a centralized Japanese government at the time that controlled the entire western part of Japan.
In the 1910s and 20s, Ryūzō Torii and other Japanese scholars traveled to Ji'an and observed the stele close hand. They found that the inscription had been repaired by clay and lime, and therefore questioned the credibility of the rubbed copy.[1]
The first Korean scholarly study was that of Chang in 1955.[2] He supposed that the subjects of the sentence 渡海破 and 以爲臣民 were respectively Goguryeo and Baekje. By Chang's interpretation the entire passage read as follows:
"And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects."
In 1959 the Japanese scholar Teijiro Mizutani published another important study.[3] He had acquired rubbed copies made before the repair of the stele and concluded that Sakō's copy had not been made by the rubbing method but rather had been traced, a method known in China as 双鉤塡墨.
The North Korean scholar Kim reported his conclusions in a 1963 article.[4] He had studied the Japanese chronicles Kojiki and Nihonshoki, and concluded that Wa referred to colonies of Samhan in Japan. He claimed that these colonies were established by Korean immigrants and centered around Kyūshū, Kinai, Izumo. Later, according to Kim, the colonies were absorbed by Yamato polity, which was also founded by Koreans. He also posited that the subject of 來渡海破百殘 was Goguryeo, and 百殘 was not the Baekje kingdom but Baekje's colony in Japan. Other North Korean scholar also argued for Goguryeo's invasion of Japan.[5]
Many Korean scholars reject the interpretation that Japan conquered Baekje and Silla on the basis of evidence that cites the contrary. It is difficult to tell when sentences begin or end because of the absence of punctuation and the necessity of reading into the text via context.[6] Furthermore, the subjects Baekje and Silla are not recognizably mentioned in the passage; only the first character for "Baekje" (百) is noted, and even the supposed first character of Silla is not complete (only 斤 as opposed to 新). Furthermore, the character "jan" (殘) was a character used derogatively by Goguryeo in place of the character "jae" (濟) in Baekje's official name (this may have denoted wishful thinking on the part of Goguryeo that another nation came and conquered Baekje). Thus, when taking into consideration the major absence of characters and lack of punctuation, the passage reads:
And in the sinmyo year the Wa (Japanese) crossed the sea. (Abbreviation of someone's title) made (?) subjects of (?) However, further analysis of the passage is that Goguryeo, not Japan, crossed the sea and defeated Baekje or Wa.
In the case of this interpretation, and the abbreviation of King Gwanggaeto's title in the passage, the passage states:
And in the sinmyo year the Wa crossed the sea. King Gwanggaeto (abbreviation) made Silla and Baekje subjects of (?). Some point out several facts that put in doubt the traditional Japanese interpretation of the sinmyo passage. Firstly, the term Wa at the time the stele was made did not solely refer to people from Japan but could also refer to the people from southern Korean, particularly from the Gaya Confederacy.[7][8]

[caster51]

geocities .jp/bxninjin2004/data_room/13/Gwanggaeto.html
Way to many lies within this link. Its riddled with nationalistic bias. No serious historian would take that link seriously. They make the claim that Japan somehow conquered Korea in ancient times. Despite the fact that the three major Korean kingdoms at the time had iron and bronze weapons, armor, horse cavalry, chariots, larger population and organized government. Of which Japan at the time had none or very little of.
The Gwangetto stele makes none of the claims the author makes. The passage within the stele he is referring to is heavily damaged and can be interpreted in multiple different ways
I think you should read the chinese and the korean document .
you should read Gwangetto stele.
Chinese scholars participated in studies of the stele from the 1980s. Wang Jianqun interviewed local farmers and decided the intentional fabrication had not occurred and the lime was pasted by local copy-making workers to enhance readability
Xu Jianxin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences discovered the earliest rubbed copy which was made before 1881. He also concluded that there was no evidence the Japanese had damaged any of the stele characters
I do not know why the Korean does not boast of this, "Goguryeo defeated Wa".:blush:

[JichaelMordon]

I think you should read the chinese and the korean document .
you should read Gwangetto stele.
Chinese scholars participated in studies of the stele from the 1980s. Wang Jianqun interviewed local farmers and decided the intentional fabrication had not occurred and the lime was pasted by local copy-making workers to enhance readability
Xu Jianxin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences discovered the earliest rubbed copy which was made before 1881. He also concluded that there was no evidence the Japanese had damaged any of the stele characters
I do not know why the Korean does not boast of this, "Goguryeo defeated Wa".:blush:

I made no mention of the stele being damaged by the Japanese. Although that is a huge possibility. Read the article I posted. I only mentioned that the stele was heavily damaged prior to its finding and its meaning lost over the centuries. The stele can be interpreted in many different ways due to its lost meaning. The stele doesnt even mention Baekje or Shilla outright. Only the first character for "Baekje" (百) is noted, and even the supposed first character of Silla is not complete (only 斤 as opposed to 新). We dont even know if it was actually referring to Baekje. The stele only mentions the damaged word 百. Baekje is spelled 百濟, not 百. The stele mentions the word 斤 which is the incomplete character of 新. Shilla is spelled 新羅. Obviously, 斤 in no way equals 新羅(shilla). Only a Japanese historian can interpret history in such a faulty way. Its delusional.

You also claim that that the stele was referring to Wa defeating Baekje and Shilla even though this is not stated in the stele or supported by historical records. The stele can be translated in many different ways because the characters are missing. Korean scholars translated the passage as-

""And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects."""

And this sounds a lot more realistic and is in fact supported by historical records. Goguryeo did in fact defeat Japan and subjugated both Shilla and Paekche during that time period.

source (De Bary, Theodore and Peter H. Lee, "Sources of Korean Tradition", p. 25-26)

On the other there is no historical record of Japan ever conquering Shilla and Baekje. Wa did not even possess an organized government, state, iron weapons, horses, cavalry, chariots and its population size was dwarfed by Korea's three kingdoms. So how exactly did Japan fight Goguryeo? The answer- Japan was in fact a colony of Baekje. Whenever Baekje was in trouble, they called up Japanese conscripts and equipped them with modern weaponry at the time. Remember, Japan didnt have iron weapons. Japan wasnt even an organized country, they were a colony controlled by the more powerful Korean kingdoms. Dont believe? Chinese records-The book of Sui states ""Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it [many rare and precious things], and regularly send their person there"".
Silla, Baekje and later Goguryeo colonized Japan and considered it a "treasure source" and regularly sent colonists to it. Thats very danming evidence and only Japanese historians deny it and claim that Koreans were somehow sending tribute to japan. As if that makes any sense lol.

To say that Wa somehow conquered two of Korea's three largest kingdoms at the time is downright laughable. No Chinese record mentions Wa defeating Shilla or Paekche at the time. None whatsoever. No Korean record mentions it either. The Gwangetto Stele is heavliy damaged and can be interpreted in many different ways so it doesnt count. Only a delusional Japanese historian can claim that Japan somehow defeat Korea.

[JichaelMordon]

Caster51, I havent read all of this topic yet, but I request you quit promoting your lies.

You remark that Korea did not have wet rice method. Korea had wet rice method long long before Japan ever did. Korea had wet rice method centuries before a Japanese state was even formed. Gaya was never a part of Japan nor was it "founded" by Japanese. It was a Korean state as acknowledged by the vast majority of sane historians. The same goes for Koguryeo and Baekje. They were Korean kingdoms and are still to this day Korean.

The fact is, you are no historian. You are a fraud. A fraud who only wants to believe what he wants to believe, no matter how delusional or preposterous.

[pipokun]

...
They were Korean kingdoms and are still to this day Korean.
...

At least, most Japanese incl. me and Chinese people are surely surprised at your sense of history.

[JichaelMordon]

At least, most Japanese incl. me and Chinese people are surely surprised at your sense of history.

Considering how the rest of the world laughs at Japan and China's textbooks and delusional view of history, im not surprised. Japan and China are so similar to each other. They just dont like to admit it. :D

P.S. only a complete idiot believes Koguryeo, Kaya and Baekje were Japanese rather than Korean kingdoms.

[Trollhattan]

At least, most Japanese incl. me and Chinese people are surely surprised at your sense of history.






He's ignorant of East Asia history :p

[JichaelMordon]

He's ignorant of East Asia history :p

And what exactly did I get wrong? Or is it because you guys simply disagree with me? Cant handle the truth?

[canadian_kor]

I laugh at all those people who downplay the genetic contribution of ancient Koreans to the modern Japanese stock. Did you know that scientists have found out that one of the major haplotypes in modern Japanese males is Haplotype O2b1 (about 32%)? Did you know that the parent haplotype of O2b1, which is haplotype O2b, is found among 30% of modern Korean males? Also, the modern Altaic Tungus males in modern-day Manchuria is 19% haplotype O2b. Also, the haplotype C3 is found in high frequencies in modern-day Ainu males (12.5%). Korean males have about 11% haplotype C3 (C3 is the nodal haplotype of modern Mongolians).

I have to admit, though, this doesn't prove that modern Japanese people are direct or pure descendants of ancient Koreans. Scientists have also discovered that many modern Japanese males also have haplotype D2 (which the parent haplotype, D, originated in the Andaman Islands east of India). So, according to modern scientists, modern Japanese people are a curious mixture of Altaic Tunguses from Central Asia (via Manchuria and Korea) and South Asian Austronesian groups (the concentration is more towards the former group than the latter, though).

[canadian_kor]

Another thing. Ancient Japan was conquered/invaded/inhabited by a mass of Paekche people from south-west Korea just before the Kofun period. In fact, one study, based on historical records, suggests that the Tungusic Aya tribe (the ancestors of the Yamato) were so numerous on the Honshu mainland that they could not find the presence of indigenous Austronesian/Jomon/Ainu tribes like the Azumi, Hayato, Kumaso, and the Emishi. There were also other Tungusic tribes in Japan but they apparently were not as numerous as the Aya tribe. This is from ancient Japanese records, so you cannot say this was fabricated by Koreans.

[Trollhattan]

lol,feed one's own desire to associate with that which is greater than you.

Nowadays,Japanese are wanted ( a desire out of inferiority complex ) by the Koreans and Chinese.They are no more or less related to any of these 2 East Asian ethnic groups.

[caster51]

And what exactly did I get wrong? Or is it because you guys simply disagree with me? Cant handle the truth?

I think thie is for you



IghQg-PLZEM

ni-oabqzMbQ

[caster51]

The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele(in the northeastern Chinese province of Jilin) was found in China. This rubbed copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one, including descriptions about ancient Japan. This fact became clear by Jo Kenshin's study. He is a professor at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
His study put an end to the controversy over the inscription on this stele from 70's. Some people claimed that Imperial Japanese Army had altered this inscription, but this theory could be proved incorrect conclusively.
The inscription on this stele says:
"Since 391, Wa(Japan) crossed sea and defeated Baekje, ?? and Silla and made them subjects."
In 1883, this rubbed copy was gotten by Sakoh Kagenobu, who was an officer of Japan Army General Staff. Japanese Army General Staff concluded that Japan had ruled Korean Peninsula in ancient times.
After the war, some people questioned the credibility of Sakoh's rubbed copy. In 1972, Lee, professor emeritus at Wako University, claimed that Japanese Army had altered this inscription to justify their expanding to Korean Peninsula. Lee's theory aroused great controversy between the researchers from 4 countries, Japan, China, Korea and North Korea. Since then the widely held theory was propounded, but this theory did not put an end to the controversy over the inscription under the condition that it's difficult to verify theories with the real thing.
Jo professor have been studying about 50 real rubbed copies in various nations of East Asia. Year before last, he found a rubbed copy copied in 1881 at the auction of Peking. This copy is older than Sakoh's one, which had been considered as the oldest until then. He captured this and Sakoh's to his PC and compared them. Then he found there is no sign of intentional alteration. This year, the outcomes of his study was published in the book, "The study of rubbed copies of Gwanggaeto Stele(TokyoDo)".
Jo professor stressed the significance of his study and said " This result will release us from proving the emperor-centered historic view of old Japan or Japanese army's involvement, and Gwanggaeto Stele will be appreciated as a pure historical record to reveal the history of East Asia from the 4th to 5th century." But a widely-accepted theory says this inscription describes Japan as a more powerful nation than it really was. This theory explains that the inscription exaggerates the achievement of Gwanggaeto who defeated Japan. Though Imperial Japanese Army's alteration is denied, this does not automatically mean ancient Japan ruled the whole Korean Peninsula.
This inscription is not the only record about ancient Japan's expanding to Korean Peninsula.
For example, Chinese book on history, Chronicles of Sui Dynasty("Zui Sho" in Japanese) describes Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power.
This book says;
Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power and have many rare things. Each of them respects Japan, and dispatches envoys who always come and go to Japan.
Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations(Sangokushiki in Japanese) says Baekje and Silla send their princes to Japan as hostages.
This book says;
In 397, Baekje establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Chonjiwan to Japan as a hostage.
In 402, Silla establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Mikishin to Japan as a hostage.
Japanese book on history, Chronicles of Japan("Nihonshoki" in Japanese) also records their expansion to Korean Peninsula, though there are various theories as to when each event happened.
These records are compliment one another and do not conflict with another(They are only representative examples).
These facts show that ancient Japan really ruled at least a part of Korean Peninsula.
I think this operation turned out to be improper. They had better claim Japan had invaded their nations without using such big words as "We had given Japan first culture and civilization!". And should they demand an apology from the invasion of over1600 years?
WA ppls in korean documents
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%80%AD%E3%83%BB%E5%80%AD%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%A2%E9%8 0%A3%E3%81%AE%E6%9C%9D%E9%AE%AE%E6%96%87%E7%8C%AE
Wa ppl in the Chinese documents
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%80%AD%E3%83%BB%E5%80%AD%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%A2%E9%8 0%A3%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E6%96%87%E7%8C%AE


The five kings of Wa (倭の五王) are kings of ancient Japan who sent envoys to China during the 5th century to strengthen the legitimacy of their claims to power by gaining the recognition of the Chinese emperor. Details about them are unknown. According to written records in China,....These titles for the military Sovereignly over the countries had no actual powers. The appointments reflected the struggle for hegemony over the region between Goguryeo and Wa, depicted in the Gwanggaeto Stele.[1]
使持節都督倭百斉新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓七国諸軍事安東太将軍倭国王
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_kings_of_Wa

[caster51]

Talhae of Silla

Talhae of Silla (?-80, r. 57-80) was the fourth king of Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. He is commonly called Talhae Isageum, isageum being the royal title in early Silla.
[edit] Background
He was a member of the Gyeongju Seok clan, one of the noble clans that shared the Silla throne during the early Common Era.
He was born in a small kingdom 1000 li1 northeast of Wa (Japan)[1]. (The name of the kingdom is Dapana-guk 다파나국 多婆那� 2 according to Samguk Sagi, or Yongseong-guk 용성국 龍城� [2] according to Samguk Yusa.) His father, King Hamdalpa, was a king of this kingdom, his mother was a queen or princess of another small kingdom.
wa ppls were kings of Silla
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla
Hogong

Hogong was a minister of Silla in the age of nation-building. It is recorded that he was originally from the Wa people of Japan, though his surname or clan name was unknown to the compiler of the Historical Records of the Three Kingdoms.[1] He was called Hogong (meaning "Duke bottle gourd") because he was putting on his bottle gourd when he came from Japan. He was a very important person in initial Silla because he appeared in stories of primogenitors of all royal families.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogong
Silla was made by the Japanese?:blush:

[Adulado]

http://img.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/2a/62/amatsukaze1/folder/1475373/img_1475373_55103769_0?1220884218
D2
http://blackshadow.seesaa.net/image/WS0060.jpg
Hokkado Ainu moved to north from South..
then, they were isolated in hokkaido

o3 came from the south, o2b however came from the north, the variation of o2b found in Japan shows colonization occurred much earlier.

[Adulado]

lol,feed one's own desire to associate with that which is greater than you.
Nowadays,Japanese are wanted ( a desire out of inferiority complex ) by the Koreans and Chinese.They are no more or less related to any of these 2 East Asian ethnic groups.

The question is who or what cultural sphere played the most role of state cultural political formation of Japan, I understand qinese want their own piece of the pie when it comes to who influenced who game but only thing they did is populate the area, that's it.

[canadian_kor]

Caster, your lies about the history of the Japanese people are appalling. Get your facts straight and admit that the ancient Koreans played a predominant role in the formation of the Japanese genetic stock.

O2b originated from Manchuria among the Tungusic tribes. It then passed down to Korea and then went to Japan where it slightly mutated becoming O2b1.

[caster51]

Caster, your lies about the history of the Japanese people are appalling. Get your facts straight and admit that the ancient Koreans played a predominant role in the formation of the Japanese genetic stock.

O2b originated from Manchuria among the Tungusic tribes. It then passed down to Korea and then went to Japan where it slightly mutated becoming O2b1.


I an not liying. all things are witten in the korean and chinese document
that is why I did not show Japanese one according to ancient document.
I think you should read korean document in Samguk Sagi at first

Of course a lot of people came via Korea Peninsula.

and kings of Chosun dynasy was mongolian or manchurian..
now, 40% of the Japanese have D2
Jomon ppl's population was small at that time.
The immigrant was with an invasion. Most of them might be men.
I think you should know the meaning of 40%of D2
they came as refgees or slaves?
Why does the Okinawa language look like Japanese though it is further than Korea?
there is few word that is same sound and meaning in them between korean and Japanese
Ｉt might be said a brother of different father.

in case of Jeju island, according to The Goryeosa or History of Goryeo
you can find an interesting one

http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/hash0153/imgs/c/c/cc68f147.jpg

[caster51]

there are many o2b1 ppl in southern Ryukyu and southern island in Japan...
I think O2b1 Japanese infuluenced korea oppositely
where did O2b1 ppi came from?
I think they came from around Jiangsu in china with wet rice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangsu

[canadian_kor]

there are many o2b1 ppl in southern Ryukyu and southern island in Japan...
I think O2b1 Japanese infuluenced korea oppositely
where did O2b1 ppi came from?
I think they came from around Jiangsu in china with wet rice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangsu

Caster, your ignorance in this matter is downright awful. The incline of the O2b marker is from north to south. The O2b marker originated in Manchuria among the Tungusic peoples. The parent haplotype of O2, which is NO, originated from Central Asia (near the Aral Sea). The idea that Japanese invaders came and settled in Korea during the Three Kingdoms period is an outright fabrication by you. Paekche people invaded Japan and conquered the Austronesian tribes. The reason why haplotype D2 is so high among Japanese males is because the Paekche Aya tribes allowed the primitive Austronesian males to intermingle with the recent invaders from Korea.

[caster51]

The reason why haplotype D2 is so high among Japanese males is because the Paekche Aya tribes allowed the primitive Austronesian males to intermingle with the recent invaders from Korea.

so, korean history ,the things that are written in Samguk Sagi is a lie?
so was the chinese documents about Wa and korean..:blush:


The idea that Japanese invaders came and settled in Korea during the Three Kingdoms period is an outright fabrication by you.

I want to see such documents about it. please show me.
if you can not, who would be a liar

[JichaelMordon]

lol,feed one's own desire to associate with that which is greater than you.
Nowadays,Japanese are wanted ( a desire out of inferiority complex ) by the Koreans and Chinese.They are no more or less related to any of these 2 East Asian ethnic groups.
Its the other way around buddy. Korea and China is becomming greater and Japan is waning. Korea is using ancient history to mock Japan. Because it shows how Japan couldnt have done anything without Korea's help. Not because of some silly delusional Japanese belief that Koreans are jealous. Really now, what is there to be jealous of? Japanese economy is crap. Its technology companies cannot keep up with Korea. China is going to become the next superpower while Japan is going to become a 3rd world country.

I think thie is for you
IghQg-PLZEM
ni-oabqzMbQ
I know who ChosonNinja is. He is a fraud, no Korean likes him or cares about it. Japan has frauds too. Of course Japan is desperate to find faults with Korea(because Korea can find so many against Japan) so they blame all of Korea over what ChosonNinja does. As if ChosonNinja was the absolute ruler of Korea. A sign of desperation. Sad sad Japanese. Now lets look at Japanese historical fabrication.
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/1487472/Asia-rises-against-whitewashing-of-Japans-atrocities.html
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4416593.stm
ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=36882
LOL, youtube videos vs professional news sites from around the world. Japan loses yet again. Only a Japanese person can be desperate enough to use youtube video to support his cause. Dont you find it funny that even the US sides with China on issues of Japanese warcrimes. It goes to show how often Japanese lie.

[JichaelMordon]

The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele(in the northeastern Chinese province of Jilin) was found in China. This rubbed copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one, including descriptions about ancient Japan. This fact became clear by Jo Kenshin's study. He is a professor at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
His study put an end to the controversy over the inscription on this stele from 70's. Some people claimed that Imperial Japanese Army had altered this inscription, but this theory could be proved incorrect conclusively.
The inscription on this stele says:
"Since 391, Wa(Japan) crossed sea and defeated Baekje, ?? and Silla and made them subjects."
In 1883, this rubbed copy was gotten by Sakoh Kagenobu, who was an officer of Japan Army General Staff. Japanese Army General Staff concluded that Japan had ruled Korean Peninsula in ancient times.
After the war, some people questioned the credibility of Sakoh's rubbed copy. In 1972, Lee, professor emeritus at Wako University, claimed that Japanese Army had altered this inscription to justify their expanding to Korean Peninsula. Lee's theory aroused great controversy between the researchers from 4 countries, Japan, China, Korea and North Korea. Since then the widely held theory was propounded, but this theory did not put an end to the controversy over the inscription under the condition that it's difficult to verify theories with the real thing.
Jo professor have been studying about 50 real rubbed copies in various nations of East Asia. Year before last, he found a rubbed copy copied in 1881 at the auction of Peking. This copy is older than Sakoh's one, which had been considered as the oldest until then. He captured this and Sakoh's to his PC and compared them. Then he found there is no sign of intentional alteration. This year, the outcomes of his study was published in the book, "The study of rubbed copies of Gwanggaeto Stele(TokyoDo)".
Jo professor stressed the significance of his study and said " This result will release us from proving the emperor-centered historic view of old Japan or Japanese army's involvement, and Gwanggaeto Stele will be appreciated as a pure historical record to reveal the history of East Asia from the 4th to 5th century." But a widely-accepted theory says this inscription describes Japan as a more powerful nation than it really was. This theory explains that the inscription exaggerates the achievement of Gwanggaeto who defeated Japan. Though Imperial Japanese Army's alteration is denied, this does not automatically mean ancient Japan ruled the whole Korean Peninsula.
This inscription is not the only record about ancient Japan's expanding to Korean Peninsula.
For example, Chinese book on history, Chronicles of Sui Dynasty("Zui Sho" in Japanese) describes Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power.
Do you even know how to read? Or do you only copy stuff from japanese wikipedia and parrot everything it says? I made no mention of the Japanese damaging the stele(although its a huge possibility). I only mentioned that Japan's translation of the stele was inaccurate and downright moronic.
Only the first character for "Baekje" (百) is noted, and even the supposed first character of Silla is not complete (only 斤 as opposed to 新). We dont even know if it was actually referring to Baekje. The stele only mentions the damaged word 百. Baekje is spelled 百濟, not 百. The stele mentions the word 斤 which is the incomplete character of 新. Shilla is spelled 新羅. Obviously, 斤 in no way equals 新羅(shilla). Only a Japanese historian can interpret history in such a faulty way. Its delusional.
You also claim that that the stele was referring to Wa defeating Baekje and Shilla even though this is not stated in the stele or supported by historical records. The stele can be translated in many different ways because the characters are missing. Korean scholars translated the passage as-
""And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects."""
And this sounds a lot more realistic and is in fact supported by historical records. Goguryeo did in fact defeat Japan and subjugated both Shilla and Paekche during that time period.
source (De Bary, Theodore and Peter H. Lee, "Sources of Korean Tradition", p. 25-26)
The Stele was a tribute to a Korean King but because of a lack of punctuation the writing can be translated 4 different ways, this same Stele can be intrepreted as Korea crossed to Sea and subjugated Japan depending on where you punctuate the sentence. Only a Japanese person interprets history in such a faulty way. Its laughable that Japan believes that 斤 somehow equals 新羅. Or that 百 equals 百濟. Or that Japan somehow conquered Korea. How did Japan conquer Korea? How? Korea was far far stronger. No Korea or Chinese historians record Japan ever conquering ancient Korea. Ancient records do however mention that Korea conquered Japan.
Typical Japanese history :D


This book says;
Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power and have many rare things. Each of them respects Japan, and dispatches envoys who always come and go to Japan.
This book says;
What an awful awful translation. The correct translation is
""Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it [many rare and precious things], and regularly send their person there"".
Silla, Baekje and later Goguryeo colonized Japan and considered it a "treasure source" and regularly sent colonists to it. Thats very danming evidence and only Japanese historians deny it and claim that Koreans were somehow sending tribute to japan. As if that makes any sense lol.
Typical Japanese history :D


Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations(Sangokushiki in Japanese) says Baekje and Silla send their princes to Japan as hostages.In 397, Baekje establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Chonjiwan to Japan as a hostage.In 402, Silla establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Mikishin to Japan as a hostage.
Only a Japanese person will interpret history in such a way. Baekje and Shilla sent those princes as emissaries. As foreign diplomats. The fact that you believe this somehow denotes Wa conquered Shilla and Baekje is laughable. Its neither supported by historical records or archaeology. Shilla sent its prince in order to secure military aid and control from japanese warlords at the time. Baekje also sent a prince for the same reason. They did so because both Shilla and Baekje were at war against each other and needed every single advantage to overcome the other. Baekje won out in the end and Wa later became a colony of Baekje.
Shilla, Goguryeo and Baekje regularily sent princes to its neighbors even during times of war. It was a cultural custom and method of diplomacy. Only a Japanese person can interpret it a different way.
Typical Japanese history :D

Japanese book on history, Chronicles of Japan("Nihonshoki" in Japanese)
You've lost all your credibility by mentioning the Nihonshoki. Half of the book dwells with fictional events. Including gods, flying people, dragons, lasers, time travel and cloud people. LOL. Not even Japanese historians use it as a historical reference. So what are you doing right now?
Typical Japanese history :D

also records their expansion to Korean Peninsula, though there are various theories as to when each event happened.
These records are compliment one another and do not conflict with another(They are only representative examples).
These facts show that ancient Japan really ruled at least a part of Korean Peninsula.
You actually believe Empress Jingu who supposedly conquered Korea was a real historical figure? Sorry to burst your bubble, but she never existed. You fail big time for using the Nihonshoki as evidence. Not even Japanese historians believe she's real.
Typical Japanese history :D

Talhae of Silla
wa ppls were kings of Silla
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla

LOL do you even know how to read? Talhae wasnt born in Japan. He was born 1000 li of Wa(Japan). Which is a very long distance. Or they could have also been referring to the Korean kingdom of Kaya whom was also called Wa. 1 Li during that time period was about 600 meters. So in other words, Talhae was born 600 km away from Japan. And that is if he was even a real person.
""According to the Samguk Sagi, when he was born as an egg, his father considered it an ill omen and had it boxed and floated at sea. The egg floated past Geumgwan Gaya and landed east of Gyerim (near today's Gyeongju, South Korea), where he was raised by an old man as a fisherman. His family is said to have taken over a high official's house by claiming to be metalsmiths.""
So basically, you claim that a person who was born far far away from Japan. And who was born in an egg that floated around the ocean for quite some time before being discovered by a fisherman somehow denotes to Japan conquering Korea.
Right........
Excuse me while I hold my laughter.
Typical Japanese history :D


Hogong
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogong
Silla was made by the Japanese?:blush:
How on earth does a single Japanese person working for the Korea king somehow denote to Japan making Korea? Mind you that there are a hundred times more recorded instances of Japan using Korean scholars and ministers to build its nations. And this is recorded within Japanese texts.
You want to use the Nihon Shoki? Well then read up on Korean scholar Wang In(Wani) who according to the Nihon Shoki you love so much taught Japan writing, Confucianism and manners.LOL

[JichaelMordon]

I an not liying. all things are witten in the korean and chinese document

You are in fact a liar. You twist history in such a biased and predictable manner. You claim that the stele was referring to Japan conquering Korea even though the stele makes no such claim. And heres why just in case your memory is sluggish.

0. The stele is centuries old and damage. Some of it is unreadable.
1. Baekje is spelled- 百濟. The stele only mentions the word 百.
2. Shilla is spelled 新羅. The stele only mentions the word 斤.
3. How the hell did you conclude that 百= 百濟 and 斤 = 新羅?
4. There is no punctuation within the stele's passage.
5. Due to the lack of punctuation, the stele can be translated in 4 different ways.
6. The stele can also be interpretted as ""And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects.""" and that sounds a lot more plausible.

As you can see, despite all that ive just mentioned. You still believe the passage was somehow referring to Japan conquering Korea despite the fact that-

0. Korea was far far larger in population and size.
1. Korea had iron weapons. Japan didnt.
2. Korea had organized government and military. Japan didnt.
3. Korea had horses, chariots and cavalry. Japan didnt.
4. Each Korean kingdom was centuries old and well established. Japan was a backwater.
5. Korea has sophisticated armor. Japan wore cloth.
6. Japan didnt have the technological means to transport a large number of warriors onto ships to invade Korea.
7. There is no Korean or Chinese record that mentions Japan ever conquering Korea.
8. Most Japanese historians do not believe the Nihonshoki's Korea conquest is real. Only you do.

How exactly did Japan conquer Korea again?


that is why I did not show Japanese one according to ancient document.

You used the Nihonshoki which is a work of fiction. The earlier chapters dealt with flying people, gods, dragons, magical weapons and time travel. I have every right to laugh at you for using it. Furthermore, Gwangettos stele and the the Nihonshokis claim does not fit the same time line. They are centuries apart.


I think you should read korean document in Samguk Sagi at first
Of course a lot of people came via Korea Peninsula.

Where exactly in the Samguk Sagi does it mention that Japan conquered Korea? Im pretty sure if such an event were real, it would be recorded to death. So where is it? Why isnt there even a tiny reference to it in Korean and Chinese records? You cant even find such references in Japanese records. The only record that mentions Japan conquering Korea was the Nihonshoki which dealt with magical monsters and fictional god emperors who came from the sky.


Im pretty sure if Japan conquered Korea in ancient times, the Samguk Sagi you are referring to would mention it.

Where does it mention in the Samguk Sagi that Japan conquered it? Where? Please tell me, cause im fully aware that you are full of crap.


So why is there no mention of Japan defeating Korea in the Samguk Sagi? Why instead is there mention of Korea regularly destroying/subjugating Japan?

Actually, there are several mentions in Korean recordsi of Korea defeating Japan. Records of Korean kingdoms subjugating Japan. Gwangetto defeating Japan. Shilla defeating Japan at the battle of Baekang. Goguryeo-Yamato war which Japan lost rather easily. And more.

I can tell for a fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.


so, korean history ,the things that are written in Samguk Sagi is a lie?

Nope, its not a lie. Atleast most of it isnt(excluding creation myths). Its just that you interpret history in a very very poor manner. Every single statement you have made thus far has been refuted with overwhelming evidence and ease. To make matters worse for you, you resort to fictional events and magical beings to somehow prove that Japan conquered Korea.


so was the chinese documents about Wa and korean..:blush:
I want to see such documents about it. please show me.
if you can not, who would be a liar

You interpret documents in such a funny and biased manner. You believe that any reference to a Korean scholar helping Japan somehow proves that Korea was a colony of Japan. LOL:D

[canadian_kor]

Caster doesn't want to admit that modern research has found out that modern-day Japanese people owe their existence to Korean invaders before the Kofun period. If Koreans from Paekche did not arrive in Japan in massive numbers the Japanese Islands today would be inhabited by a bunch of primitive Austronesian tribes and there would be no such thing as Sony, Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc.

[Trollhattan]

lol @ corean trolls' desperate attempt :D

[caster51]

Typical Japanese history

This book says;
Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power and have many rare things. Each of them respects Japan, and dispatches envoys who always come and go to Japan.
This book says;
What an awful awful translation. The correct translation is
""Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it [many rare and precious things], and regularly send their person there"".
Silla, Baekje and later Goguryeo colonized Japan and considered it a "treasure source" and regularly sent colonists to it. Thats very danming evidence and only Japanese historians deny it and claim that Koreans were somehow sending tribute to japan. As if that makes any sense lol.

I tell again I never show and use the Japanese ancient document.
those things are written in the chinese and korean documents
if there are some bloblem, it is that the korean could not read the Chinese character.
bring korean document in chinese characters as an opposite evidence
隋書　倭国（wa)伝
新羅 百濟皆以俀爲大國 多珎物 並敬仰之 恒通使往來

it would be enogh:blush:

http://www.geocities.jp/intelljp/cn-history/zui/wa.htm

[caster51]

Typical Japanese history

Originally Posted by caster51
Talhae of Silla
wa ppls were kings of Silla
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla
LOL do you even know how to read? Talhae wasnt born in Japan. He was born 1000 li of Wa(Japan). Which is a very long distance. Or they could have also been referring to the Korean kingdom of Kaya whom was also called Wa. 1 Li during that time period was about 600 meters. So in other words, Talhae was born 600 km away from Japan. And that is if he was even a real person.
""According to the Samguk Sagi, when he was born as an egg, his father considered it an ill omen and had it boxed and floated at sea. The egg floated past Geumgwan Gaya and landed east of Gyerim (near today's Gyeongju, South Korea), where he was raised by an old man as a fisherman. His family is said to have taken over a high official's house by claiming to be metalsmiths.""
So basically, you claim that a person who was born far far away from Japan. And who was born in an egg that floated around the ocean for quite some time before being discovered by a fisherman somehow denotes to Japan conquering Korea.
Right........
Excuse me while I hold my laughter.

脱解本多婆那國所生也 其國在倭國東北一千里

1000li to north east from wa was 多婆那國
if there was wa in kyusyu, there is 多婆那國 around Tottori or kansai
Kaya was also a part of WA

anyway ,1000li in book of sill at that time was around 75~80km

there are some discriptions about distance
for example, from tushima and iki island was 1000li
Daifang Commandery to Yamatai(japan) 12,000li
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daifang_Commandery

二年春正月(AD58?)、拜瓠公為大輔。二月、親祀始祖廟。
then
in 59, 三年春三月、王登吐含山、有玄雲如蓋、浮王頭上、良久而散。夏五月、與倭國結好交聘

[Trollhattan]

Frankly,Coreans' deep-seated inferiority complexes are getting tiresome and embarrassing :p.

It's like " we Coreans don't have blah blah blah of our own,so let's hijack one " :D

[JichaelMordon]

lol @ corean trolls' desperate attempt

Thats it? After everything ive said, this is the best you could do?

Very very sad Japanese troll :D


I tell again I never show and use the Japanese ancient document.
those things are written in the chinese and korean documents
if there are some bloblem, it is that the korean could not read the Chinese character.
bring korean document in chinese characters as an opposite evidence
隋書　倭国（wa)伝
新羅 百濟皆以俀爲大國 多珎物 並敬仰之 恒通使往來
it would be enogh
geocities.jp/intelljp/cn-history/zui/wa.htm

The Chinese document(book of Sui) you are referring to is very well known. Unfortunately you mistranslated the passage intentionally. You took your own biased and ridiculous translation and twisted it into another one of your lies.
The correct translation for the passage is-

""Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it [many rare and precious things], and regularly send their person there"".

This is the correct translation. The book of sui mentions that Shilla and Baekje considered Wa to be a treasure source of material wealth and regularly sent colonists to take those resources. Not some ridiculous translation about how Shilla and Baekje viewed Japan as a great country and sent envoys to Japan in submission.

Remember, Japan at the time period had

1. No iron weapons.
2. No sophisticated armor.
3. No horses
4. No cavalry
5. No chariots
6. Smaller population
7. No organized government structure
8. primitive tech level

Your translation is ridiculous because not only is it mistranslated in your favor, but it does not fit the historical time period we are talking about. I cant believe you still think Japan conquered Korea. Wheres the evidence?

Typical Japanese historical fabrication :D


脱解本多婆那國所生也 其國在倭國東北一千里
1000li to north east from wa was 多婆那國
if there was wa in kyusyu, there is 多婆那國 around Tottori or kansai
Kaya was also a part of WA

Kaya was never a part of Japan. It was a Korean kingdom and most Japanese historians agree it was never Japanese. Not only is there no historical source or text that mentions Kaya being Japanese, but there is also no circumstantial or archaelogical evidence to prove Japan conquering Kaya or any Korean kingdom. Kaya had iron weapons, organized government, horses, cavalry etc. Stuff Wa Japan did not have. You live in a fantasy world if you believe primitive Japanese people in tiny rift raft boats could cross the sea and defeat Kaya's well equipped and armored cavalry army with wooden sticks, stones and low quality farming implements. Especially when Japan had no organized government and very little in organized military. If you believe otherwise, then show me a record that proves Kaya was Japanese. Also name the battle in which Japan supposedly beat Kaya. Otherwise, shut up with your lies.

Typical Japanese historical fabrication :D


anyway ,1000li in book of sill at that time was around 75~80km
there are some discriptions about distance
for example, from tushima and iki island was 1000li
Daifang Commandery to Yamatai(japan) 12,000li
wikipedia.org/wiki/Daifang_Commandery
二年春正月(AD58?)、拜瓠公為大輔。二月、親祀始祖廟。
then
in 59, 三年春三月、王登吐含山、有玄雲如蓋、浮王頭上、良久而散。夏五月、與倭國結好交聘


1000 Li does not equal 75-80 km. 1 Li during the time when the Samguk Sagi was written was about 500 m or .5 km. 1000 Li= 500 km. Not 75-80km. Not even close.
500 km is a long distance away from Wa Japan. That means Talhae wasnt Japanese. You claim that he was Japanese even though the book states he wasnt and that he was born far away from Wa. In fact, the Samguk sagi mentions that Talhae was born on Tapana, not Wa Japan. Again and again, you get historical facts wrong. Do you ever give up?

But thats besides the point. Do you even know how Talhae was born? Talhae wasn't a real person. Who cares if he lived 1 Li from wa or 500,000 Li from wa. He was a mythological character. Talhae was born as an egg. His father considered this bad luck so he threw the egg into the ocean. The egg drifted into the ocean for quite some time before being discovered by fishermen. The fishermen raised him as a human being.

Sounds realistic huh(sarcasm)? Not surprising since you believe everything written in the Nihonshoki to be real. Please say hi to any magical flying time travelling supermen if you see one.

Typical Japanese historical fabrication :D


[QUOTE=Trollhattan;651188]Frankly,Coreans' deep-seated inferiority complexes are getting tiresome and embarrassing
It's like " we Coreans don't have blah blah blah of our own,so let's hijack one "

Jealous of what? What is there to be jealous of? Sorry but nobody in the world is envious of Japan. Japan is a dying nation. There is nothing to be jealous of. Koreans are not jealous of Japan being the only country to get nuked ok?

If you have nothing intelligent left to say, then I suggest you shut up and leave. You're only making the Japanese side look childish and unable to debate properly.

[Adulado]

lol,feed one's own desire to associate with that which is greater than you.
Nowadays,Japanese are wanted ( a desire out of inferiority complex ) by the Koreans and Chinese.They are no more or less related to any of these 2 East Asian ethnic groups.

it might be true to some people.

[caster51]

""Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it [many rare and precious things], and regularly send their person there"".

This is the correct translation. The book of sui mentions that Shilla and Baekje considered Wa to be a treasure source of material wealth and regularly sent colonists to take those resources. Not some ridiculous translation about how Shilla and Baekje viewed Japan as a great country and sent envoys to Japan in submission

:blush:
新羅, 百濟皆以俀爲大國,
then
多珎物 ,並敬仰之 恒通使往來
:D
敬＝ to respect
仰＝to look up to

Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country, with many rare and precious things; also [Silla and Baekje] respect and look up to them, and regularly send embassies there


Korean History Record Samguk Sagi : 三國史記 新羅本紀 : 元年 三月 與倭國通好 以奈勿王子未斯欣爲質

Korean History Record Samguk Sagi : 三國史記 百済本紀 : 六年夏五月 王與倭國結好 以太子腆支爲質 秋七月大閱於漢水之南

Chinese History Record Book of Song : 宋書 列傳第五十七 夷蠻 : 詔除武使持節、都督倭新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓六國諸軍事、安東大將軍、倭王。興死，弟武立，自稱使持節、都督 倭百濟新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓七國諸軍事、安東大將軍、倭國王

[caster51]

Remember, Japan at the time period had
1. No iron weapons.
2. No sophisticated armor.
3. No horses
4. No cavalry
5. No chariots
6. Smaller population
7. No organized government structure
8. primitive tech level
Your translation is ridiculous because not only is it mistranslated in your favor, but it does not fit the historical time period we are talking about. I cant believe you still think Japan conquered Korea. Wheres the evidence?
according to Records of Three Kingdoms chapter WA in 3th C
用矛楯木弓 木弓短下長 竹箭或鐵鏃
WA ppl use iron:D

[caster51]

Kaya was never a part of Japan. It was a Korean kingdom and most Japanese historians agree it was never Japanese. Not only is there no historical source or text that mentions Kaya being Japanese, but there is also no circumstantial or archaelogical evidence to prove Japan conquering Kaya or any Korean kingdom. Kaya had iron weapons, organized government, horses, cavalry etc. Stuff Wa Japan did not have. You live in a fantasy world if you believe primitive Japanese people in tiny rift raft boats could cross the sea and defeat Kaya's well equipped and armored cavalry army with wooden sticks, stones and low quality farming implements. Especially when Japan had no organized government and very little in organized military. If you believe otherwise, then show me a record that proves Kaya was Japanese. Also name the battle in which Japan supposedly beat Kaya. Otherwise, shut up with your lies

kaya was not included korea three kingdom.
of course there are many discription about kaya like WA
:D

自稱使持節、都督倭百濟新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓七國諸軍事、安東大將軍、倭國王

I think you should read Gwanggaeto Stele carefuly

the ninth year, kihae, of Yongnak [ A.D. 399], Paekchan [Paekche], in violation of its sworn oath, concluded a peace with the Wa. The king responded by making a tour down to P'yonyang, where an envoy sent from Silla reported to him, saying "The Wa people have filled our territory and are overwhelming and smashing our walls and moats. Since, as slave-guests, we have become your subject people, we take refuge in Your Majesty and ask for your command." The great king in his benevolence praised the sincerity of their loyalty and sent the envoy home to impart [a secret plan] to the Silla king.

In the tenth year, kyongja [A.D. 400], the king sent five myriads of troops, both foot and horse, to go to the aid of Silla. The whole area from Namgo-song to the Silla capital was filled with Wa people. At the approach of our government troops the Wa enemy retreated. [Our government troops came following their tracks; attacking the Wa] from behind, our troops reached Chongbal-song in Imnagara, which forthwith surrenderd.

The troops of the Alla people seized the Silla capital. It was full of Wa people, who flooded over the walls [in flight?].

In the fourteenth year, kapchin [A.D. 404], the Wa rose up and made an incursion into the territory Taebang. The king's forces, having waited for them at a critical point, surprised and assaulted them. The Wa marauders [Woegu] were utterly defeated, and countless numbers of them had their throats cut.

In the seventeenth year, chongmi [A.D. 407], the king issued instructions for the dispatch of five myriads of troops, foot and horse, [to wipe out the Wa marauders once and for all. When the marauders turned back and invaded P'yongyang, the royal] army engaged them in battle, smiting them mightily and wiping them out entirely.

Wa type of short armor 倭系帯金式短甲
http://www.kyuhaku.jp/exhibition/images/s_17/p11-l.jpg
In Busan museum、 these armours are called wA type of armour which were descoverd in Kaya

http://www.bell.jp/pancho/kasihara_diary/images/h18j/1029-21.jpg

In japan, 764 Iron armors was discoverd
in kaya, only 80..

[caster51]

1000 Li does not equal 75-80 km. 1 Li during the time when the Samguk Sagi was written was about 500 m or .5 km. 1000 Li= 500 km. Not 75-80km. Not even close.
500 km is a long distance away from Wa Japan. That means Talhae wasnt Japanese. You claim that he was Japanese even though the book states he wasnt and that he was born far away from Wa. In fact, the Samguk sagi mentions that Talhae was born on Tapana, not Wa Japan. Again and again, you get historical facts wrong. Do you ever give up?
But thats besides the point. Do you even know how Talhae was born? Talhae wasn't a real person. Who cares if he lived 1 Li from wa or 500,000 Li from wa. He was a mythological character. Talhae was born as an egg. His father considered this bad luck so he threw the egg into the ocean. The egg drifted into the ocean for quite some time before being discovered by fishermen. The fishermen raised him as a human being.
Sounds realistic huh(sarcasm)? Not surprising since you believe everything written in the Nihonshoki to be real. Please say hi to any magical flying time travelling supermen if you see one.
anyway 1000li(about 435km) to northeast from wa is kansai area
there are a tanbakoku(丹波）and tanakoku(丹那国）..　same sound of 多婆那国
Talhae wasn't a real person
we do not care at all about him
anyway, acording to korean myth, silla was made by wa ppl
:D:D

Truth about the Koreans and Korea in Authorized History books
is this a true?
:D
9scIILkrT2I



Koreans are not jealous of Japan being the only country to get nuked ok?
korea aka Chosen was Japan at that time:p
many korean also died by them

[JichaelMordon]

新羅, 百濟皆以俀爲大國,
then
多珎物 ,並敬仰之 恒通使往來
敬＝ to respect
仰＝to look up to
Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country, with many rare and precious things; also [Silla and Baekje] respect and look up to them, and regularly send embassies there
Korean History Record Samguk Sagi : 三國史記 新羅本紀 : 元年 三月 與倭國通好 以奈勿王子未斯欣爲質
Korean History Record Samguk Sagi : 三國史記 百済本紀 : 六年夏五月 王與倭國結好 以太子腆支爲質 秋七月大閱於漢水之南
Chinese History Record Book of Song : 宋書 列傳第五十七 夷蠻 : 詔除武使持節、都督倭新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓六國諸軍事、安東大將軍、倭王。興死，弟武立，自稱使持節、都督 倭百濟新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓七國諸軍事、安東大將軍、倭國王

Your translation is awful.

Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country is innaccurate. The correct translation is "Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a large country".
The 大 makes no reference to Japan being "great". 大 is translated into large, not great. The book of Sui was written by Chinese historians who believed their country was at the center of the earth. A Chinese historian would never ever ever ever mention the word "great" with Wa Japan. The word Wa was in fact a derogatory term for the Japanese and implied island dwarf. The Chinese referred to themselves as great. Not Japan.

You also minimize the characters 多珍物 which translates into "many precious treasures/objects". The entire passage was talking about Japan's natural resources, otherwise they wouldn't have even mentioned it. So far the translation goes as followed "Shilla and Baekje both view Japan as a large country with lots of precious/rare treasures/resources". Obviously implying that both Koreans viewed Japan as a cash cow rather than a nation who conquered them. This makes even more sense because at the end of the passage they mentioned 恆通使往來 which translates into "both sent people on missions/envoy"(for those treasures).

仰 has multiple definitions. One of them is "admire" and admire fits this sentence far more than "to look up". Afterall, the entire passage was talking about Japan's resources. So heres the correct translation

新羅、百濟皆以倭為大國，多珍物，並敬仰之，恆通使往來

""Shilla, Paekche both view Japan as a large country(landmass). With lots of rare treasures(treasures). Both respectfully admire it(treasures). And send missions to it(landmass)"".

Notice how the passage was not talking about the Japanese government or emperor. Why? Because the passage was only talking about Japans landmass and resources. LOL. You need to quit lying and making stuff up.

And you still haven't proven that Japan conquered Korea. Even if the passage we were talking did in fact refer to what you claim, it still doesnt prove anything. So wheres the evidence that Japan conquered Korea?

Typical Japanese fraud :D


according to Records of Three Kingdoms chapter WA in 3th C
用矛楯木弓 木弓短下長 竹箭或鐵鏃
WA ppl use iron

Those Wa iron implements were bought from Korean kingdoms- Baekje and Kaya or brought over by Korean immigrants. Japan needed Korea at that time period to use iron implements. This isn't my own opinion, this is the opinion of MOST SCHOLARS. Japanese included(add www).

staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/KoreanFe/KoreanFe.html#Heading4

In fact, Japans earliest iron discoveries were all of Korean design. LOL. Go to a Japanese museum that deals with Kofun era and early Yayoi. Everything is copy of Korean iron technology.

Typical Japanese history:D


kaya was not included korea three kingdom.
of course there are many discription about kaya like WA
:D
自稱使持節、都督倭百濟新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓七國諸軍事、安東大將軍、倭國王

Are you joking? Kaya is Korean. Go type Gaya Kingdom or Kaya Kingdom into google, yahoo or any other search engine. All sites list it as Korean. Kaya is a korean kingdom. Are you forgetting that Shilla conquered and ate Kaya? And Kaya's people became Shilla people?

Typical Japanese thief:D


I think you should read Gwanggaeto Stele carefuly

I think you should read it carefully, because I easily refuted your argument. Of course, you seemed to have conveniently ignored it.

Typical Japanese history:D


Wa type of short armor 倭系帯金式短甲
kyuhaku.jp/exhibition/images/s_17/p11-l.jpg
In Busan museum、 these armours are called wA type of armour which were descoverd in Kaya

Wa type armor? No. Korea type armor? Yes.
Kaya = Korean kingdom. Kaya was not a Japanese kingdom.
Dont you find it funny that Kaya had horses, iron weapons, iron armor, organized government etc. But Wa at the same time period didnt have any?
LOL pitiful Japanese, trying to steal other peoples history. Kaya had Iron weapons and armor. But Wa didnt. If Kaya was Japanese, why did Japan lack horses and iron weapons at the time? Why did they have to trade with Kaya and Baekje for those items?

Typical Japanese logic:D


bell.jp/pancho/kasihara_diary/images/h18j/1029-21.jpg
In japan, 764 Iron armors was discoverd
in kaya, only 80..

From Kaya. Kaya of course being a Korean kingdom.

Typical Japanese :D

[JichaelMordon]

anyway 1000li(about 435km) to northeast from wa is kansai area
there are a tanbakoku(丹波）and tanakoku(丹那国）..　same sound of 多婆那国
Wrong. Even in the myth, Talhae wasn't Japanese. He wasn't born in Wa. He was born in 500km away from japan in a country called Tapana.
Typical Japanese historian :D


Talhae wasn't a real person[/B]
we do not care at all about him
anyway, acording to korean myth

Wrong again.

Talhae didn't make Shilla. He wasnt the first king of Shilla or even the second or third. Bak Hyeokgeose was the first king and founder of Shilla. Yuri was the third king. Talhae was the fourth. The fifth king of Shilla wasn't Talhae's son or even his daughter. It was Yuri's(3rd king) son Pasa. The 6th king Jima was Pasa's son. And the blood line continued onwards. You know nothing about Shilla's bloodline. Talhae's bloodline did not succeed him. Not that it really matters because he never existed. He's a myth.

And how exactly does Talhae's existence equate to Shilla people being Japanese? Are you on drugs? Bak Hyeokgeose who founded Shilla wasn't from Wa. The native people who formed Shilla wern't from Wa either. They were refugees from an even older Korean kingdom called Gojoseon. But of course, you didnt know that. Because you were too busy lying to yourself.

Typical Japanese historian :D

, silla was made by wa ppl
Dumbest comment ever.
Typical Japanese :D

Truth about the Koreans and Korea in Authorized History books
is this a true?
:D

Authorized? No Korean historian uses creation myths as evidence.

Talhae wasn't Japanese. He was never Japanese. He was born 1000 Li from Japan in a country called Tapana. Tapana and Wa were 2 different countries. Quit claiming they are the same thing. If He was born in Wa, then the book would have stated that he was born in Wa. Not Tapana.

He was born as an egg which his father threw into the ocean. The egg drifted across the ocean for days and landed in Korea. An elderly Shilla fishermen founded the egg and raised the egg into a man. When he became an adult, he worked for the Shilla king and eventually the king gave the throne to him. Absolutely nothing to do with Japan.

Not that any of this really matters because Talhae WASNT EVEN A REAL PERSON.
Quit bringing up legends and myths into this debate. Its no wonder why you believe the Nihonshoki is real.

Typical Japanese historian :D


9scIILkrT2I
korea aka Chosen was Japan at that time:p
many korean also died by them

I didnt view that video because I dont care, and I bet its dumb as hell.

Seriously, how the hell does a youtube video prove anything? If you were a historian who resorted to youtube videos to prove something, you would be laughed out of the building.

Typical Japanese behavior :D

[caster51]

Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country is innaccurate. The correct translation is "Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a large country".
The 大 makes no reference to Japan being "great". 大 is translated into large, not great. The book of Sui was written by Chinese historians who believed their country was at the center of the earth. A Chinese historian would never ever ever ever mention the word "great" with Wa Japan. The word Wa was in fact a derogatory term for the Japanese and implied island dwarf. The Chinese referred to themselves as great. Not Japan.

You also minimize the characters 多珍物 which translates into "many precious treasures/objects". The entire passage was talking about Japan's natural resources, otherwise they wouldn't have even mentioned it. So far the translation goes as followed "Shilla and Baekje both view Japan as a large country with lots of precious/rare treasures/resources". Obviously implying that both Koreans viewed Japan as a cash cow rather than a nation who conquered them. This makes even more sense because at the end of the passage they mentioned 恆通使往來 which translates into "both sent people on missions/envoy"(for those treasures).

At first, it was not china that considerd wa was a great country:D

新羅, 百濟皆以俀爲大國,
then
多珎物 ,並敬仰之 恒通使往來

Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a large country".....
大国＝large country?:blush:
that is why the korean loves to shout 大韓民国 De-han min gook!!!


Vertical rectangular plate armor ceased to exist by the middle of the fifth century. In its place, the Gaya began using plate armor from Japan. As evidence of the spread of Japanese imports, Japanese armor from the fifth century A.D.--such as triangular plate body armor, horizontal rectangular plate body armor, and pointed helmets--has been found in Gaya tombs. Nonetheless, it was Mongol bowl-shaped helmets and mail armor that were the most common panoplies from the fifth century on..........
http://www.gayasa.net/gaya/English/Museum/download/gapju.doc
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:VY-yKtS5eHwJ:www.gayasa.net/gaya/English/Museum/download/gapju.doc+Japanese+short+armor+busan+iron&cd=2&hl=ja&ct=clnk&gl=jp

年戊戌，教遣偏師觀帛慎土谷。因便抄得莫新羅城加太羅谷男女三百餘人，自此以來朝 貢論事。九年己亥，百殘違誓與倭和通。王巡下平穰，而新羅遣使白王云，倭人滿其國境 ，潰破城池，以奴客為民，歸王請命。太王恩後稱其忠誠，時遣使還，告以□訴。十年庚 子，教遣步騎五萬，往救新羅，從男居城至新羅城，倭滿其中。官兵方至，倭賊退□□□ □□□□□來背息，追至任那加羅，從拔城，城即歸服。安羅人戍兵拔新羅城，□城。倭 滿，倭潰城大
Wa ppl go back to mimana Kaya..
Silla capital was filled with Wa people
again,Gwanggaeto Stele
http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%A5%BD%E5%A4%AA%E7%8E%8B%E7%A2%91%E6%96%87

[JichaelMordon]

You really dont know when to give up do you? And why did it take you forever to write up such a tiny and poorly crafted reply?

At first, it was not china that considerd wa was a great country
新羅, 百濟皆以俀爲大國,
then
多珎物 ,並敬仰之 恒通使往來
Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a large country".....
大国＝large country?
that is why the korean loves to shout 大韓民国 De-han min gook!!!
大= large and big.
It can mean great, however the book of Sui obviously did not imply 大 as great within the text. Did you even bother to read the book of Sui? Or any other Chinese record of the time period?
You claim that Shilla and Baekje viewed Japan as a great "country". How the hell is this possible when Japan wasn't even considered a true country by Chinese sources? Whenever Chinese records of the time mentioned Japan, they mentioned it as a land mass rather than as a unified country. Chinese records did not view Japan as a singular country. All Chinese records during that time period state repeatedly that Japan was a loose confederation of 100 or more disorganized and primitive tribes each with different kings and leaders. Yet you claim Japan somehow conquered Shilla and Baekje? Lets look at Chinese historical records before and after Gwangettos time.
Book of Han(Chinese historical text)
Beyond Lo-lang in the sea, there are the people of Wo. They comprise more than one hundred communities.
Book of Wei(Chinese historical text)
The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities.
Book of Wei(again)
Over one thousand li to the east of the Queen's land, there are more countries of the same race as the people of Wa. To the south, also there is the island of the dwarfs [侏儒國] where the people are three or four feet tall(LOL). This is over four thousand li distant from the Queen's land.
Book of Later Eastern Han
The Wa dwell on mountainous islands southeast of Han [Korea] in the middle of the ocean, forming more than one hundred communities
Book of Sui
During the Wei dynasty, over thirty countries [of Wa-kuo], each of which boasted a king, held intercourse with China.
Hou Han Shu
Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary. The King of Great Wa resides in the country of Yamadai
Historical evidence of the time clearly shows that Japan wasn't a unified country. It wasn't a country at all. It was a land mass where various warlords/kings waged war and fought each other. Each and everyone one of those warlords had their own "country" with different kings.
Really now, are you so stupid as to believe Shilla and Baekje viewed Japan as great? Japan did not even have iron weapons, horses or even a unified government. They were as chaotic and disorganized and humanly imaginable. For what fathomable reason is there for Shilla and Baekje to view Japan as "great"? Large I would understand. Great however is simply ridiculous. Shilla and Baekje were technologically, economically and militaristically centuries ahead of the entire Japanese peninsula. In fact, records of the time clearly state that the Wa living in Japan were downright primitive and moronic.
Book of Sui
These barbarians do not know how to measure distance by li and estimate it by days.
Hou Han Shu
Four thousand li away to the south of the queen's land, the dwarf's country [侏儒國] is reached; its inhabitants are three to four feet in height. After a year's voyage by ship to the southeast of the dwarf's country, one comes to the land of naked men and also to the country of black-teethed people [裸國黑齒國]; here our communication service ends.
For what sane reason would those two kingdoms label Japan as great? Please tell me because only an insane person could lie his way out of this one. And while you're at it, please provide evidence that Japan conquered those two Korean kingdoms. Because you have yet to do so. Seriously, how the hell did Japan conquer Shilla and Baekje during Gwangettos time? I would really like to know what kind of story you can cook up this time. I would also like to know where you get your cooky theories and stories from.
Heck, Japan would not become a single country until almost 1000 years later during Hideyoshis time. And yet you still believe that the book of sui was referring to Japan being "great"? Sorry buddy but most Japanese scholars or at least the sane ones admit that the book of sui was referring to 大 as being large rather than great. Are you so stupid as to not even understand Kanji- your own native language? 大 in Japanese also means large. Do you know why 大 is written the way it is? Its because its supposed to resemble a man stretching his arms and legs as far and wide as possible. It denotes the person trying to be as BIG as possible. Hence its defintion as being large/big.
Give it up. The book of Sui was obviously referring to 大 as BIG. Not some delusional belief that it was referring to Japan as great. How exactly was Japan great during Shilla and Baekjes time period? Japan lacked iron weapons, armor, organized government, horses, cavalry, a unified country and more. There is no reason to denote Japan as being great, because the book was obviously implying Japan as being a large landmass. Hence the reference to Japan's natural resources within the text and because Japan was a disorganized mess of competing warlords. Japan as I stated earlier wasn't even a country during Gwangettos time period.
Japan would not become a unified country until over 1000 years later. I realize that you're not a very good debater and resort to biased nationalistic lies, but Jesus Christ do you set the standards of Japanese history lower than imaginable.
Typical japanese historical fabrication :D

Vertical rectangular plate armor ceased to exist by the middle of the fifth century. In its place, the Gaya began using plate armor from Japan. As evidence of the spread of Japanese imports, Japanese armor from the fifth century A.D.--such as triangular plate body armor, horizontal rectangular plate body armor, and pointed helmets--has been found in Gaya tombs. Nonetheless, it was Mongol bowl-shaped helmets and mail armor that were the most common panoplies from the fifth century on..........
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Did you even bother to read the link you posted. Kaya did buy "some" Japanese armor probably out of curiosity, but the vast majority of armor used by the Kaya army was still of Korean origin. And really, what does this have to do with anything again? It still doesnt change the fact that Japanese armor was Korean.

Face it, you've lost this debate. Its over. Kaya is a Korean kingdom. Japan didnt even have access to iron weapons and iron armor and had to trade with Korean kingdoms to obtain them. Its funny how you claim that Kaya was a Japanese kingdom. Yet for some strange reason Japanese people were living in mud huts, didnt even wear clothes, no access to iron weaponry and armor and didn't even have an organized government. Meanwhile Kaya had all of the listed above and more.
Truly ironic isnt it?
Typical japanese historical fabrication :D

.gayasa.net/gaya/English/M...load/gapju.doc
//74.125.153.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=jp
Wa ppl go back to mimana Kaya..
Silla capital was filled with Wa people
And what does that have to do with anything? There were lots and lots of Korean people in ancient China? Did that mean Korea conquered all of China? There are Koreans in America today. Does that mean Korea conquered America? Wa was filled to the brim with Korean immigrants. During the Nara period, a large segment of the nobility were Korean and Chinese immigrants. So what does that have to do with anything?
Nothing. Just like your entire argument.
Who the hell cares if Wa people lived in Korea? Koreans also lived in Japan as well.
My goodness does your logic suck. If you're going to make a point. At the very least make an intelligent one.
Typical japanese historical fabrication :D

[Trollhattan]

got to love this video ... :blush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWipITcTk-k&feature=related

[JichaelMordon]

got to love this video ... :blush:


Typical Japanese inferiority complex.:D
Typical Japanese immaturity.:D

Japan can not beat Korea at anything so they make videos like this.

Korea doesnt even have to try hard to find videos negative about Japan. None of the links I post are even made by Koreans lol.

youtube.com/watch?v=JdRlhMd9Vbs

nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-2DLove-t.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

youtube.com/watch?v=BTxZXKsJdGU

youtube.com/verify_age?&next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DUx74kJLv7KY

youtube.com/watch?v=6iZlVN3gEso

rjkoehler.com/2009/11/05/samsung-now-bigger-than-nine-of-japans-major-electronics-companies/

nationmaster.com/graph/hea_pla_sur_pro_percap-plastic-surgery-procedures-per-capita

bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=acYH_ZqAefdw

snopes.com/risque/kinky/panties.asp

news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/japan-tech-giants-slump-as-skorean-rivals-rebound-20091031-hq1l.html

as-link.com/en/news_list.asp?newsid=25

youtube.com/watch?v=qc_5CKARbZg

Typical Japanese abnormality.:D

[Pachipro]

I am not as well educated in Asian history as you seem to be Jichael Morden and don't claim to be. But, whether you agree with caster51 or not, it would be nice if you could have a humane, civil debate without the blasting of someone for their viewpoints. This is not a forum for flaming someone for their viewpoints, but rather to understand where they are coming from and to have an intelligent debate. There are many other forums where you would be most welcome with your flaming.

Also, it would be wise to understand where the person you are flaming is from. caster51 is Japanese and may not be able to answer in fluent English as fast or as clearly as you would like. It would behoove you to take that into consideration before slamming him.

Besides, he has been here much longer than you and, whether right or wrong, adds much to this forum and gives an insightful Japanese viewpoint and he slams no one.

Also, you seem to lack an understanding of the Japanese people and their educational system. Whether you agree with it or not, it would still help if you had an understanding of it which you seem to severely lack for, if you were so educated, you wouldn't be as flameheaded as you are just to prove you know more than he does just because you read it in a book or were taught it at university far removed from the actual place where it occurred.

Your profile states that you have never been to Japan so, without a clear understanding of Japanese culture, history, and thinking, how can you justify your viewpoints and severe lambasting of caster51 as you fail to provide links for your justifications so that others may read and debate.

You seem to be great at referring to Chinese history and translations and who is to say they are correct in their history and teachings?

Every country has their own view on history and teach it to their children in the best way they deem fit when actual fact usually shows that it is usually not the case. America is a typical example in their conquering of west and the native Americans. The truth is, history, any country's history, is far from what we or they are taught. It is all propaganda in one way or another.

Also, have you read this entire thread? Since you seem to be so educated in this subject I would be interested in reading your views/debate concerning the other viewpoints posted which you seem to ignore but enjoy honing in on caster51 and slamming him.

How about commenting on the other posts with your vast knowledge especially from grimmo, Maciamo, and bossel among others as this thread goes back more than 7 years with much, much more information than you have posted. I would be interested in reading your comments referring to their information also.

In the end, read the entire thread, understand where the other person is coming from, and be civil, please, in your replies. Also, links would be very much appreciated as most of us here are here to learn something. Thanks.

[JichaelMordon]

I initially tried to be civil and still am to some degree. But then he went insane. He began parroting the material on radical right-wing sites and posting racist youtube videos to discredit me. He was creating one lie to back up another lie. It all eventually came crashing down on him.

To make matters worse, caster seems to have a habit of intentionally mis-translating Chinese historical texts to suit his own agenda. He does this in order to trick anyone who cannot read Chinese characters. Which is vile and unacceptable in my opinion.

If he wants a proper debate, then tell him to behave as well.


Your profile states that you have never been to Japan so, without a clear understanding of Japanese culture, history, and thinking, how can you justify your viewpoints and severe lambasting of caster51 as you fail to provide links for your justifications so that others may read and debate.

I've been to Japan. Its just that when I registered my account, I didn't bother to fill in any of the optional content(hobbies, interest and what not).


You seem to be great at referring to Chinese history and translations and who is to say they are correct in their history and teachings?
Every country has their own view on history and teach it to their children in the best way they deem fit when actual fact usually shows that it is usually not the case. America is a typical example in their conquering of west and the native Americans. The truth is, history, any country's history, is far from what we or they are taught. It is all propaganda in one way or another.

Thats not being fair to history. Its true that records can be tainted and meaning lost over the centuries. However if we were to assume all historical texts as mere propaganda then the human race would have no history. And that is a tragedy.

Historians use Chinese records because they were the most accurate and well written for the time. Chinese records were also supported by the records of other Chinese kingdoms during that time period as well as second hand evidence and archaeological finds.


Also, have you read this entire thread? Since you seem to be so educated in this subject I would be interested in reading your views/debate concerning the other viewpoints posted which you seem to ignore but enjoy honing in on caster51 and slamming him.

I am not "educated" within the field of genetics. I do not know where the Japanese people came from or really care(other than a slight curiosity). I only began commenting when Caster51 claimed that Japan somehow conquered the Korean kingdoms of Shilla, Baekje and claimed that Kaya was a Japanese kingdom.

[Trollhattan]

S Koreans take the " crown " for history fabrication ... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIhoBy6a0BY

[JichaelMordon]

S Koreans take the " crown " for history fabrication ... :D
youtube.com/watch?v=dIhoBy6a0BY

You see what I mean? This is why I cant take the Japanese side seriously. They do not even bother debating properly. Whenever they lose, they throw a fit. Its so typical of them. What is the point of bringing up doctored youtube videos that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand?

PS Trollhattan, that video was taken way way out of context. The show did not support any of the claims mentioned within that video. The entire premise of that show was to summarize a whacky book/theory and then to discredit the theory.

The guy who uploaded that video intentionally deleted the portion of the video that discredits the theory. Let me repeat again. The show did not support the ideas claimed in that video. The Japanese guy who uploaded that video intentionally deleted the portion of the show that discredits the entire theory.

None of this is taught in Korean schools, are in Korean textbooks or taken seriously by the vast majority of Korean historians. You want to talk about historical fraud? Why dont we look to Japan then.

Japan- largest historical and archaeological fraud in recent memory.
================
wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Fujimura

t-net.ne.jp/~keally/Hoax/how.html

archaeology.org/0101/newsbriefs/godshands.html

museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/permalink/the_stone_age_discoveries_of_shinichi_fujimura/
================
This fraud was going on for years and was taught in Japanese schools. Published within Japanese textbooks. Children graduated from school after being taught, tested and believing this lie.

Ultimately it was discovered for the fraud that it was. A huge embarrassment for Japanese archaeology and history. They had to overhaul Japanese textbooks and change the curriculum. Someone committed suicide because of it and the rest of the world stood and watch in amazement.

It was THAT bad.

[caster51]

You see what I mean? This is why I cant take the Japanese side seriously. They do not even bother debating properly. Whenever they lose, they throw a fit. Its so typical of them. What is the point of bringing up doctored youtube videos that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand?

ask the chinese who can read chinese characters:blush:

[JichaelMordon]

ask the chinese who can read chinese characters:blush:

If thats all you have left to say in support of your right wing supremacist argument, then I guess this debate is pretty much over. You've lost.

大= large or big. Read my last comment on the subject(which you've either ignored or could not refute).

(add www and . at the beginning)
wa-pedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=651652&postcount=296

Give it up. Your wasting your own time if you still believe your magical view of history is taken seriously by anyone other than radical fringe groups. No historian, not even Japanese historians believe in or support what you are proposing.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

"漢委奴国王印"

http://www.geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/003_07/kinninn2.jpg

[JichaelMordon]

"漢委奴国王印"
geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/003_07/kinninn2.jpg

Why are you showing me this? Its an imperial seal of China that was used by a Japanese king who submitted to the Chinese emperor.
I dont know how to read the hiragana/katakana that is on the right.

[Adulado]

I don't now if this idiot above is Korean or not. I wish mod gave him a warning, he shows trollish signs no different than that of a qinese who claims Koreans and Japanese came from qina. How would you feel if a qinese called you a qinese?

[JichaelMordon]

I don't now if this idiot above is Korean or not. I wish mod gave him a warning

If anyone deserves a warning, it would be you. Hypocrite.


he shows trollish signs no different than that of a qinese who claims Koreans and Japanese came from qina. How would you feel if a qinese called you a qinese?

Not once have I claimed Japan or Japanese people were Korean. I could care less about the origins of Japanese people. In fact I have yet to even comment on that subject.

If you actually bothered to read what ive written, you would realize how off base your comments are. As I said earlier, I have yet to even comment on the origins of Japanese people or make even the slightest claim that Japan originated from Korea, France or the planet Uranus. I simply dont care. My argument with caster and that troll was over an entirely different matter that had nothing to do with Japan's origins and genepool.

If you have no idea what is going on, then dont bother commenting at all. It only makes you look foolish.

[Adulado]

If anyone deserves a warning, it would be you. Hypocrite.
Not once have I claimed Japan or Japanese people were Korean. I could care less about the origins of Japanese people. In fact I have yet to even comment on that subject.
If you actually bothered to read what ive written, you would realize how off base your comments are. As I said earlier, I have yet to even comment on the origins of Japanese people or make even the slightest claim that Japan originated from Korea, France or the planet Uranus. I simply dont care. My argument with caster and that troll was over an entirely different matter that had nothing to do with Japan's origins and genepool.
If you have no idea what is going on, then dont bother commenting at all. It only makes you look foolish.

Your obsession talks 1000 words already. If you don't want insist you're an idiot shut up already, don't make Koreans look bad.

[JichaelMordon]

Your obsession talks 1000 words already. If you don't want insist you're an idiot shut up already, don't make Koreans look bad.

Obsession of what? You didn't even know what this entire debate was about in the first place. What gives you the right to make such a comment? I suggest you go back to that little hole where you came from.

[Adulado]

That coming from you I'll take it as if you're an idiot as we all know there's no remedy for idiots, i'm out.

[JichaelMordon]

That coming from you I'll take it as if you're an idiot as we all know there's no remedy for idiots, i'm out.

Dont let the door hit you on your way out.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Remains prove the history.
The gold seal was given the Japanese king in 57 in the Christian era by the Chinese emperor.
This proves that a Japanese traded with China in those days, and it proves the existence of the country.



1. No iron weapons.
2. No sophisticated armor.
3. No horses
4. No cavalry
5. No chariots
6. Smaller population
7. No organized government structure
8. primitive tech level

1. Inariyama Sword : It was discovered from an old burial mound of Saitama.
It was written as dedication for 471 years.
2. The armor was excavated from the old burial mound, too.
We can watch them at the Tokyo National Museum and other many local museums.
3.4. A horse was imported into Japan in Burial Mound age.
　　The model of harness and the horse is excavated from the old burial mound
5. chariots does not seem to have been suitable for the Japanese topography.
6.From a number and the size of the old burial mound, I can suppose that Japan had more population 　　than Korea.
　Japan has more population now than Korea.
7.The group of the scale to receive the recognition as the country from a foreign country existed.
　　The gold seal proves it.
8.　I was not inferior in all fields.
　　There was it in a basal level.
　　Existing Japanese cultural heritage proves it.

[JichaelMordon]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Remains prove the history.
The gold seal was given the Japanese king in 57 in the Christian era by the Chinese emperor.
This proves that a Japanese traded with China in those days, and it proves the existence of the country.

Japan wasn't a unified country. There was no "Japanese" country during that time period. Japan was a landmass inhabited by the people of Wa who were split into dozens of communities each with different kings/tribal leaders. No different from America before the arrival of Columbus.

These communities would wage war against each other for centuries and would not unite into a true singular country(Japan) as we know it until 1500 years later. During Hideyoshis time. Here are some Chinese records of the time period as evidence

====Chinese records on Japan's status during that time period==========
Book of Han(Chinese historical text)
Beyond Lo-lang in the sea, there are the people of Wo. They comprise more than one hundred communities.

Book of Wei(Chinese historical text)
The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities.

Book of Wei(again)
Over one thousand li to the east of the Queen's land, there are more countries of the same race as the people of Wa.

Book of Later Eastern Han
The Wa dwell on mountainous islands southeast of Han [Korea] in the middle of the ocean, forming more than one hundred communities

Book of Sui
During the Wei dynasty, over thirty countries [of Wa-kuo], each of which boasted a king, held intercourse with China.

Hou Han Shu
Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary.
=======

Its true that Japanese communities of the past maintained relationships with the Han dynasty of China. And this is actually well known. I even mentioned it 2 pages ago. However, it still favors my argument either way. This does not signify Japan the country as trading with China or Korea. It signifies one of the more than 100 communities trading with mainlanders.

Chinese record(history of Wei)
The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities. During the Han dynasty, [Wa envoys] appeared at the Court; today, thirty of their communities maintain intercourse [with us] through envoys and scribes.

As you can see, it wasn't Japan that maintained relations with China. It was the tiny fractured communities of Wa people.


1. Inariyama Sword : It was discovered from an old burial mound of Saitama.
It was written as dedication for 471 years.

Only one problem though, Gwangetto ruled during 374-413 AD. Over a century before Japan's earliest sword. By that time period, all three Korean kingdoms had complicated iron weaponry, cavalry and armor. Japan didnt. You can see why its very unlikely that Japan- a fractured country of over 100 warring tribes without organized government, iron weapons and armor was somehow able to cross the sea in large numbers and defeat the technologically and numerically superior Korean kingdoms of Shilla and Paekche.

The Inariyama Sword was a special made gift for one of the Wa kings of the island. It was tailored made for him. This in no way signifies that the vast majority of Japanese people during that time period used iron weapons as was the case on the mainland. Japan would not truly reach the iron age until much later. And they would only use iron weapons in combat much later as well.

One more thing, the sword is in such poor condition that its date is difficult to establish. The swords age ranges from 471 AD to 521.


2. The armor was excavated from the old burial mound, too.
We can watch them at the Tokyo National Museum and other many local museums.

Whats your definition of sophisticated armor?

Because all complicated plate and metal armor during that time period were of Korean design(Kaya, Baekje etc).


3.4. A horse was imported into Japan in Burial Mound age.
　　The model of harness and the horse is excavated from the old burial mound
5. chariots does not seem to have been suitable for the Japanese topography.

The Kofun era ended in 538 AD which was still centuries after Gwangettos time. Horses were not native to Japan and had to be brought over from the mainland and bred over the centuries.


6.From a number and the size of the old burial mound, I can suppose that Japan had more population 　　than Korea.
　Japan has more population now than Korea.

Of course Japan has a larger than population than Korea right now. The northern half of it is starving. And how exactly can you measure population size using size and number of burial mounds?

Type in "Korea three kingdoms" into google or any other search engine and you'll see that Korea was much larger back then. The Korean kingdoms during that time period were already established and possessed stable government structure and modern farming technology of the time. Population growth was stable within the peninsula.

Hokkaido, Okinawa and the northern half of Honshu was not a part of the Wa people during that time period. What constituted Wa Japan during that time period was small. Most of it being the southern half of Honshu. Japan during that time period did not possess a stable government. Communities relied on less efficent methods of farming or hunting and gathering.

Korea had a far far larger population then Japan back then.


7.The group of the scale to receive the recognition as the country from a foreign country existed.

Primitive African and Native American tribes of the past also traded and established relations with powerful western nations during the time of colonization. It doesnt really mean those tribes were "Advanced".


　　The gold seal proves it.
8.　I was not inferior in all fields.
　　There was it in a basal level.
　　Existing Japanese cultural heritage proves it.

Japan as a single functioning country would not come into existence until 1500 years after than Han dynasty period or 1300 years after Gwangettos time. The gold seal only proves that a few Japanese communities out over of 100 traded and maintained relations with the Han dynasty. Japan was still a chaotic island of 100 or more warring communities with different leaders and views.

[Chidoriashi]

Your translation is awful.

Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country is innaccurate. The correct translation is "Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a large country".
The 大 makes no reference to Japan being "great". 大 is translated into large, not great. The book of Sui was written by Chinese historians who believed their country was at the center of the earth. A Chinese historian would never ever ever ever mention the word "great" with Wa Japan. The word Wa was in fact a derogatory term for the Japanese and implied island dwarf. The Chinese referred to themselves as great. Not Japan.

You also minimize the characters 多珍物 which translates into "many precious treasures/objects". The entire passage was talking about Japan's natural resources, otherwise they wouldn't have even mentioned it. So far the translation goes as followed "Shilla and Baekje both view Japan as a large country with lots of precious/rare treasures/resources". Obviously implying that both Koreans viewed Japan as a cash cow rather than a nation who conquered them. This makes even more sense because at the end of the passage they mentioned 恆通使往來 which translates into "both sent people on missions/envoy"(for those treasures).

仰 has multiple definitions. One of them is "admire" and admire fits this sentence far more than "to look up". Afterall, the entire passage was talking about Japan's resources. So heres the correct translation

新羅、百濟皆以倭為大� ，多珍物，並敬仰之，恆通使往 來

""Shilla, Paekche both view Japan as a large country(landmass). With lots of rare treasures(treasures). Both respectfully admire it(treasures). And send missions to it(landmass)"".

Notice how the passage was not talking about the Japanese government or emperor. Why? Because the passage was only talking about Japans landmass and resources. LOL. You need to quit lying and making stuff up.


I don't often, or even now necessarily agree with many of the things Caster claims, but I would like to point out some things.

Now, I do not know Chinese, but I do know Japanese, so I would like to ask you something. If the Chinese just considered Japan to be a large landmass at the time then why do they use the character 国 for country. .and not something more adequate to describe something that was nothing more than a large landmass to them?

Another thing, I know that 大 means large usually, but being stuck next to 国 in any circumstance that I have ever seen it is not just referring to the size of the country. In my Japanese dictionary 大国 is described as, yes a large landmass, and having a large population, but in the same definition it says also someplace with 国力, meaning as you probably can guess, national strength or power. Once again I do not know Chinese so maybe they use the word differently, but maybe this could be the reason for some of differing interpretations of these phrases?

Also just curious here, but what exactly do you believe the "many rare items/treasures" to even be referring to?

[Chidoriashi]

Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary. The King of Great Wa resides in the country of Yamadai


And not to nitpick here. And maybe I have taken this out of context.... but why in the quote that you provided to us is "Wa" referred to using "great" in English? Is this just a bad translation from somebody else?

[Adam]

We have mainly 4 theories about Jomon Jin and Yayoi jin.
Recentry many people support (4).(Some deny (4).)

(1)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were thrown out of Japan by Yayoi jin.
(2)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were mixed with Yayoi Jin.
(3)Native Japanese gradually changed their physical features.
And they became Yayoi Jin.
(4)There lived Native Japanese.They were called Jomon Jin who had physical features from south ward.In Yayoi period,people who had physical features from nothern ward (Yayoi Jin) came to nothern Kyusyu from Eurasia.They went down to Kyusyu and up to Honsyu.Jomon Jin moved to Okinawa and Hokkaido.

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

I got these informations from some books.
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
Interesting!
:blush:

Yes I am not Japanese or a scientist, but I am struck by how some Japanese have some physical similarities to Amerindians (which Chinese for example do not), and I find it strange that no one has paid much attention this connection. It seems logical that those northern asians that crossed the bering strait toward the Americas during the ice age would also go South to Japan which was also connected to eastern Russia by land. I agree that Japanese ancestry is probably mostly Korean and Chinese, but I think what makes Japanese slightly different is the Amerindian-Jomon connection. If you look at for example Emperor Akihito, he looks similar to a native American or native Mexican.

[moonpanda]

They are from common C3 stock, very near.:p

[moonpanda]

There are 3 major male specific gene carriers, YDNA haplogroups, in present Japan:
(1) Jomon Aboriginese D2
(2) Dongyi-Hui/Mo (Yemaek in Korean) O2b/O2b1
(3) Xufu Mission O3/O2a
they were nuclear fuels that trickled in Japan from about BC200. Control bars were pulled up around AD200 at Yamato (pref. Nara) and chain reaction completed around AD250 when the first sovereign queen died. Japan was born.

[obione46]

Japan wasn't a unified country. There was no "Japanese" country during that time period. Japan was a landmass inhabited by the people of Wa who were split into dozens of communities each with different kings/tribal leaders. No different from America before the arrival of Columbus.

These communities would wage war against each other for centuries and would not unite into a true singular country(Japan) as we know it until 1500 years later. During Hideyoshis time. Here are some Chinese records of the time period as evidence

====Chinese records on Japan's status during that time period==========
Book of Han(Chinese historical text)
Beyond Lo-lang in the sea, there are the people of Wo. They comprise more than one hundred communities.

Book of Wei(Chinese historical text)
The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities.

Book of Wei(again)
Over one thousand li to the east of the Queen's land, there are more countries of the same race as the people of Wa.

Book of Later Eastern Han
The Wa dwell on mountainous islands southeast of Han [Korea] in the middle of the ocean, forming more than one hundred communities

Book of Sui
During the Wei dynasty, over thirty countries [of Wa-kuo], each of which boasted a king, held intercourse with China.

Hou Han Shu
Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary.
=======

Its true that Japanese communities of the past maintained relationships with the Han dynasty of China. And this is actually well known. I even mentioned it 2 pages ago. However, it still favors my argument either way. This does not signify Japan the country as trading with China or Korea. It signifies one of the more than 100 communities trading with mainlanders.

Chinese record(history of Wei)
The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities. During the Han dynasty, [Wa envoys] appeared at the Court; today, thirty of their communities maintain intercourse [with us] through envoys and scribes.

As you can see, it wasn't Japan that maintained relations with China. It was the tiny fractured communities of Wa people.



Only one problem though, Gwangetto ruled during 374-413 AD. Over a century before Japan's earliest sword. By that time period, all three Korean kingdoms had complicated iron weaponry, cavalry and armor. Japan didnt. You can see why its very unlikely that Japan- a fractured country of over 100 warring tribes without organized government, iron weapons and armor was somehow able to cross the sea in large numbers and defeat the technologically and numerically superior Korean kingdoms of Shilla and Paekche.

The Inariyama Sword was a special made gift for one of the Wa kings of the island. It was tailored made for him. This in no way signifies that the vast majority of Japanese people during that time period used iron weapons as was the case on the mainland. Japan would not truly reach the iron age until much later. And they would only use iron weapons in combat much later as well.

One more thing, the sword is in such poor condition that its date is difficult to establish. The swords age ranges from 471 AD to 521.



Whats your definition of sophisticated armor?

Because all complicated plate and metal armor during that time period were of Korean design(Kaya, Baekje etc).



The Kofun era ended in 538 AD which was still centuries after Gwangettos time. Horses were not native to Japan and had to be brought over from the mainland and bred over the centuries.



Of course Japan has a larger than population than Korea right now. The northern half of it is starving. And how exactly can you measure population size using size and number of burial mounds?

Type in "Korea three kingdoms" into google or any other search engine and you'll see that Korea was much larger back then. The Korean kingdoms during that time period were already established and possessed stable government structure and modern farming technology of the time. Population growth was stable within the peninsula.

Hokkaido, Okinawa and the northern half of Honshu was not a part of the Wa people during that time period. What constituted Wa Japan during that time period was small. Most of it being the southern half of Honshu. Japan during that time period did not possess a stable government. Communities relied on less efficent methods of farming or hunting and gathering.

Korea had a far far larger population then Japan back then.



Primitive African and Native American tribes of the past also traded and established relations with powerful western nations during the time of colonization. It doesnt really mean those tribes were "Advanced".



Japan as a single functioning country would not come into existence until 1500 years after than Han dynasty period or 1300 years after Gwangettos time. The gold seal only proves that a few Japanese communities out over of 100 traded and maintained relations with the Han dynasty. Japan was still a chaotic island of 100 or more warring communities with different leaders and views.

I think you are all over the show..you quote chinese literature, but do you know what they are saying? I think the more you go on,
the more of a fool you will show of yourself..your information is only half-value... re the sword that japan didnt have that you claim,
which or rather what sword you talking about? can you clarify? as starters?

[obione46]

Yes I am not Japanese or a scientist, but I am struck by how some Japanese have some physical similarities to Amerindians (which Chinese for example do not), and I find it strange that no one has paid much attention this connection. It seems logical that those northern asians that crossed the bering strait toward the Americas during the ice age would also go South to Japan which was also connected to eastern Russia by land. I agree that Japanese ancestry is probably mostly Korean and Chinese, but I think what makes Japanese slightly different is the Amerindian-Jomon connection. If you look at for example Emperor Akihito, he looks similar to a native American or native Mexican.

absolutely not.. he does not look a bit like american indian..total different facial strucures...

[obione46]

chidoriashi, you are absolutely right.. if what jichael was saying was correct, the chinese would have used the term　大地　rather than
the word they used 大国、which obviously then they recognized japan as a country, and in this word, a great country!!..think jichael
needs a bit more studying in his native korea...

[ushiwakamaru]

I think we're getting way of point here. We can all agree that Korean Kingdoms largely influenced, and populated Yamato during the Kofun (Yamato) Period. But I think it would be better to continue discussing who was present during the time of Yamatai confederacy, and who were the original Yayoi. Note: There is a difference between the three.

[ushiwakamaru]

Here's the point I was trying to get to: Say, for now, that the Yayoi were all proto-Korean migrants (which looking at mtDNA makes seem like undeniable fact).

Where, then, did they get the custom of tatooing themselves to ward off spirits? Tattooing was not practiced in the Korean Peninsula, though it was a tradition among the Jomon.

Why did they pull out people's front teeth to differentiate kin from outsiders (a tribal ritual in neolithic Chinese Hemudu culture)?

Why was their clothing- the yokohau, a wrap-around skirt, for men, and the kantoui, a tunic, for women - so different from Korean dress? Although the "hanbok" had not been invented yet, the basic central-Asian design that it originates from had followed migrants all the way through Korea, and one would expect it to have continued to the Japanese Islands. Wa-jin did not start wearing anything resembling the Korea jeogori and baji until later.

Just food for thought.

[Index]

Amzing this thread is still going-almost teny years old. And Maciamo is back too :)

[Uplutea]

And after centuries of animosity, Koreans and Japanese emigrants who toiled to relocate around the world in countries spread over 4 million sq miles each, decide to set up shop no more than 5 miles of each other. As shown by Japantowns and Koreatowns in San Francisco, Sydney, Brazil and many other cities, it's clear that we can't live without each other. Biggie And Tupac, the Workers Party Sinn Fein vs the Provisional Sin Fein, the Yanks vs Sox: Just another feud in the bucket of Freud's "Narcissism of the minute" (der Narziﾟmus der kleinen Differenzen) "the phenomenon where adjacent territories, with more in common than not, engage in constant feuds, i.e. in the minute differences of details). Most likely however, whether Korean or Japanese, one of their ancestors bred with the enemy.
Koreans residing on one of hundreds of micro islands around the peninsula, speak a dialect almost indistinguishable from Japanese called Zainichi.

[Minty]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615218/

Now I can't remember who was it, maybe there were more because this has been years ago some people in here try to say that Japanese were Koreans. And they are North East Asian stock, where as Chinese are related to Vietnamese ( well, ancient Vietnam was under Chinese control) I won't be too surprised if there are links in blood, but apparently according to this study Koreans have 83% South East Asian Origins.

I found one:

^^^It's quite pathetic that you post pics of actresses to prove your idiotic case. Also, aren't you the one who provided that phony link hanbooks.com for your flimsy case that Koreans originate from China? Please do not waste bandwith with your fake and misleading posts to spread your sinocentric propanda which proves nothing.

Also, every researcher knows that you need DNA to prove for any case concerning origins. DNA studies all confirm that Korean and Chinese have different origins and Koreans are NOT related to Chinese.

There is solid DNA evidence that Chinese have origins in SE asia. Also, many Chinese I've seen do look amazingly like Vietnamese. I can't tell them apart most of the time. In fact, Chinese and Vietnamese and Thai languages sound extremely similar, all being tonal languages. Thai language supposedly originated in China.

We may have link with South East Asians because we are all over the place in South East Asia, and Chinese men who intermarry South East Asian women are common, but according to this research Koreans have high percentage of South East Asian origins!

Another one:
Japanese Genetic Roots: Ainu and Native South Americans

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=JFQlIp8VvFU
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=CguNE9vcd-8
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=wSPmpK5OR3M

And another:

You actually have ZERO knowledge of genetics as proven by your posts. Are you like 14? Japanese most certainly do not have European or Middle Eastern roots. Maybe they WISH to have those roots--but all you have to walk around the streets of Tokyo to notice that Japanese look and are 100% asian.

As to Japanese having Ainu roots, maybe like 5%; they certainly do not comprise a significant portion of the population and their contribution to the Japanese gene pool is certainly overplayed by the Japanese to obscure the "asianess" of their background to tie them in somehow with European. Their contribution to the culture and genepool of Japan is minimal at best. And even any caucasian would laugh at the notion that Japanese are somehow a hebrew tribe like the 12 tribes of Israel or some such nonsense.

Japanese are genetically a mix of Korean, Malay/Polynesian and Ainu.

Many Japanese however like to obscure their background by coming up with ridiculous unsupportable theory such as they have austronesian roots or their ancestors are from South America or some such nonsense, anything but to admit the most plainly obvious.

[Minty]

From what I read, the only Ainu still living in Japan are restricted to Hokkaido. They used to occupy all the north of Japan (Tohoku) till a few centuries ago, then were pushed to Hokkaido (but maybe in the Edo period, not Jomon or Yayoi). People from Okinawa don't look Ainu at all. Their language is related to some native languages of Taiwan (i.e. not Mandarin Chinese), not to the Ainu language, nor Japanese. Besides, it would suprise me that Ainu would have ventured at sea to reach small islands hundreds of km off the coast of Kyushu which they might not have known of. From what I've read, Japanese already lived in Western Japan in Jomon and Ainu in the North-East. Not sure when Japanese arrived in Japan (and from where ? probably Korea, but they also seem to be related to Indonesians ?).


The Japanese originated from Korea. This is borne by western research studies on genetics, cultural and linguistics which all agree on the Korean origination hypothesis, although Japanese and Chinese researchers themselves have a personal bias and hidden agenda and would rather obscure this tie with Korea. But the relationship is obvious first from the similarity of the language---as someone pointed out earlier, Korean sounds like another dialect of Japnese---to even anyone who is unfamiliar with any studies. Here are some more facts: 1) The first horses that appeared on Japanese islands came from Korea 2000 years ago. 2) Korea and Japanese grammar is nearly identical. 3) Kyushu which is closest to the Southern tip of Korea is hypothesized as the place as where Japanese cultural bloom began because it is the area in which you will find the oldest and culturally significant early Japanese artifacts. As mentioned, Kyushu is closest to the Southern tip of Korean. The early Japanese artifacts unearthed are identical to artifacts unearthed in the area of Southern Korea in the same time period

I would recommend the book Korean Impact on Japanese Culture: Japan's Hidden History by Jon Covell and Alan Covell for those interested in this topic.


Also, with regard to Southern Chinese contributing to Yayoi. I doubt that. Both Koreans and Japanese do not share DNA with Southern Chinese. In fact, Japanese and Southern Chinese DNA differ extremely. Hence, there is no genetic evidence and the exact opposite can be inferred: Southern Chinese had little contribution to the peopling of Japan, if any. I will link the genetic study on this upon request.

https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/yayoi-era-yields-up-rice/who-were-the-yayoi-people/making-sense-of-dna-data-and-origins-of-the-japanese/


According to this study, 'surprisingly, Japanese also display the highest frequency of haplogroup O3a5, which is a Han Chinese and Sino-Tibetan specific O3 branch."

This frequency is about 5% higher than the frequency of O3a5 among Manchus, Koreans and other Northeast Asians.

The study concludes with the following statement" in a nutshell, what we can evince and conclude from all the DNA data that has been presented is that the Japanese people are a people with mixed diverse origins, formed from many waves of migrations from various locations in the remote past as well as in the more recent past.'

[Minty]

...or is there something else that hinders her power of discernment? :p

I'm a white American guy, and even I can tell Japanese people apart from other Asians. To put it bluntly, most Japanese persons look like the hybrid offspring of a pair consisting of an East Asian and a southern European (Greek or Jew?). That's not to say that the Japanese are closely related to any extant European population; in fact, I am almost certain that they are very distant from each other in terms of line of descent. The fact remains, however, that morphologically at least, Japanese people have a relatively high incidence of certain physical traits that are extremely rare among other East Asian populations. I think this is likely to be due to "shared retention" by the ancestors of the Europeans and the Japanese aborigines of a certain suite of physical traits that was typical of the original Eurasians, while the ancestors of continental East Asians underwent several severe changes to their skeletal (and especially facial) morphology during their most recent stage of evolution. This scenario seems to be supported by the fact that ancient skeletons of modern humans found anywhere in Eurasia, and even the oldest human skeletons found in the Americas, all appear to possess rather Caucasoid morphology, and skeletons that exhibit the prototypical features of the Mongoloid race appear only later in the archaeological record.

I rarely have any difficulty distinguishing Japanese from Chinese or Koreans, but the continentals can be a troublesome bunch.

The unusual features of the Japanese that set them apart clearly in most cases from any of the continental East Asians are:

1) Japanese tend to have a more pronounced facial topography (i.e., a rather "bumpy" or "projecting" look to the face, such as around the eyebrows, rather than the smooth and flat contours of Chinese or Koreans)

2) Japanese tend to have a more perceptually salient nose. This can be either more salient in simply the degree of projection from the surface of the face, or more salient in terms of the total volume of the nose (i.e., including the width). In general, Japanese seem to exhibit a much greater variety of nose sizes and shapes than do continental East Asians, and I have met many Japanese who even have "bumpy" noses with several bulges and constrictions in the contour of the nose, as I have otherwise only observed in Europeans. Chinese and Koreans appear to have only smooth-contoured noses, regardless of whether they are flat and broad (as is common in southern Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) or narrow and slightly projecting. This feature is particularly relevant for distinguishing Japanese men from Chinese or Korean men, because women of every nationality tend to be rather paedomorphic when it comes to their noses.

3) Japanese people tend to have a diminutive lower facial region. They often have small jaws, which may be the direct cause of their propensity for having poor alignment of the teeth. Continental East Asians, on the other hand, seem to have huge jaws, flaring malars (cheekbones), and a generally large and imposing lower face when viewed from a Caucasian perspective.

4) Japanese people often have rather translucent skin, similar to that of Europeans, when they are not tanned. Therefore, Japanese people often have rosy cheeks and a generally healthy-looking complexion. When they do tan, they tend to take on a reddish-brown color. The Chinese and Koreans, on the other hand, are almost all cream- or beige-colored ("pasty") from the start, and they have completely opaque skin, so that it is impossible for them to have rosy cheeks and they always look sort of sickly unless they are tanned, in which case they take on a yellow-brown color.

As for distinguishing Chinese and Koreans by sight, I think it is quite difficult, but not impossible. They both have a propensity for big faces with a smoothly rounded outline, but Koreans tend to be more extreme in the width of their faces, so that they often have a nearly circular look, whereas Chinese tend to have more elliptical faces when viewed directly from the front. Chinese also more frequently have double eyelids and larger eyes that seem to bulge out of their (flat) sockets. Korean people tend to have very small eyes and no eyelid creases. Among East Asians, Chinese people also have a peculiar tendency towards prognathism, so that they often have bulging mouths that look somewhat reminiscent of black Africans. The big, bulgy eyes and mouth that appear so frequently among Chinese people seem to me to suggest some sort of affinity with populations of Southeast Asia. Also, I'm not totally sure about this, but I have a hunch that Koreans more frequently have a sort of oily shine to their skin, whereas Chinese people's skin tends to be more dull and dry-looking.

ALL people suffer from poor eye sight according to your 'expert definitions' of what Chinese and Japanese supposed to look like, years later, until today I still get people thinking I am either Japanese or Korean and were shocked when I told them that I am Chinese. Take it from me, people can't tell the difference between the different Asian ethnics, except Indians vs a Chinese or Indians vs a Japanese, that they can tell. I think they failed to tell the difference between the East Asians, and that is that!!!


If there is anyone who is caucasian-like in appearance, it's probably Koreans bcause of all the asian ethnicities they probably the ones who can compete with caucasians in terms of height and build and not look misplaced. This is probably one of the reasons everyone is so fascinated with Korean dramas accross asia. People are probably not used to that kind of appearance. Moreover, many Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian because they believe that they look similar--and I find some of my Mongolian friends don't dispute this fact. Yet, I doubt any Korean would seriously suggest that they are part-caucasian or the like.

I am seriously laughing out loud here, there are plenty of Chinese people from the north even taller than Koreans. I would never trust the appearance of celebrities, plastic surgeries for crying out loud here, you want to see what Koreans really look like take a good look at north Korea.


North Korea 165.6 cm (5 ft 5 in) 154.9 cm (5 ft 1 in) 20-39
South Korea 170.7 cm (5 ft 7 in) 157.4 cm (5 ft 2 in) 20+

China, People's Republic of 167.1 cm (5 ft 6 in) 155.8 cm (5 ft 1 1/2 in) 18
China, Mainland 172.1 cm (5 ft 8 in) 160.1 cm (5 ft 3 in) 19
China, People's Republic of-Urban 170.2 cm (5 ft 7 in) 158.6 cm (5 ft 2 1/2 in) 17
China, People's Republic of-Rural 166.3 cm (5 ft 5 1/2 in) 157.0 cm (5 ft 2 in) 17
China, People's Republic of-Beijing 174.7 cm (5 ft 9 in) 161.3 cm (5 ft 3 1/2 in) 21
China, People's Republic of-Sichuan 169.2 cm (5 ft 6 1/2 in) 158.2 cm (5 ft 2 1/2 in) 20-24

Due to the fact that Southern Chinese are small, so the average got pulled down when it is the entire China we are talking about, but if we are just considering the northerners they are taller than Koreans. Interestingly for the urban area Chinese women are slightly taller than the S Koreans and the men are slightly shorter.

You think Koreans look like Caucasion compare to the other Asians?!!!!! Hahaha http://www.konbini.com/fr/entertainment-2/nouvelle-star-le-racisme-ordinaire-candidat-sud-coreen/

Take a good look at this video, no wait, you probably don't understand it because it is in French. Yes if you look so much like white people, why would the poor korean lad have experienced racism in his attempt for a singing competition in France!!!

In Australia, we have a Korean lady who won the singing competition, who received racism remarks from white Australian because she is not born in Australia and English is not her first language. http://www.yomyomf.com/korean-australian-artist-dami-im-told-that-she-is-not-australian-and-therefore-shouldnt-be-respresenting-us-at-the-2016-eurovision-song-contest/

Yeah, Koreans look "so much" like white people, they get racism attack from real white people!!! Hahaha....

[Minty]

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations/

This website says both Japanese and Chinese have North and South East Asian genetics.