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Maciamo
Jul 25, 2002, 13:10
This is one of the numerous WaiWai stories of the Mainichi Shimbun (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/index.html). It's about teenage prostitution ("enjo kosai") and pedophilia in Japan.

=> Japan jerking off over pseudo pedo-porno (http://www.japanesestylenoodles.com/waiwai/archive20020724)

(EDIT : The article, is no longer available on the Daily Mainichi's website, but I found another site that published it and fixed the link.)


Something is very rotten in the state of Japan.
Long regarded as a pedophile's paradise, the Land of the Rising Sun in the Noughties is awash with a sickening plethora of products that make sex objects of prepubescent girls and the almost national fetish for schoolgirl sexiness is seeking ever younger subjects.

...

"Back in '99, we ran a black-and-white photo spread featuring three girls under 15 and it attracted as much attention as it would have if done in full color," Spa! hears from Suganuma-san, a reporter for Weekly Playboy,the first major magazine to bring underage sex into the mainstream market.

...

Seijunkei, a magazine that features only models under 15 clad in skimpy swimsuits, works on a similar policy.
Though its concept is obscene, it skirts the law by making sure its models don't appear indecent.

...

Ura Bubka, yet another men's magazine devoted to schoolgirl sexuality, has also found prepubescence profitable.

"Our very first edition featured (schoolgirl band) Morning Musume and we've grown since then. A feature asking reader's opinions about our belief that having sex with schoolgirls is wrong attracted enormous attention," Editor-in-Chief Masashi Okazaki tells Spa! "All our stories about junior high schoolgirls are popular,coming in first or second for popularity with every reader survey."

...

Even more sickeningly graphic have been the "Itazura" series of "Legal Pedophilia" videos currently selling like hot cakes.
The videos star Wakana Tachiki, a 19-year-old who looks every bit of the elementary schoolgirl she plays in the lurid video series that has stretched to 24 movies since first being released in September last year.


Those of you who have been to Japan will have seen loads of porn magazines features quite young girls in every combini )convenience store). The most amazing is that males of all ages (from teenagers to ojisan) read them without any complex in front of everybody. In video shops, you can find sex videos besides the latest Hollywood productions, even next to children oriented movies like "Stuart Little" or "Shrek".

The "enjo kosai" (lit. : remunerated date) isn't really prostitution like we usually understand it. A middle age man (about 40-50years old) will date a girl young enough to be his daughter. The usually get to know each others via "terekura" (telephone club, that is a kind of pink phone, very popular among teens girls to make some pocket money). They might go to the restaurant and have a chat, or go to the cinema, or to the hotel (and I let you imagine after). All girls don't have sex with their "dana" (sponsor, literally : master or husband, as it is the same word in Japanese). The always get money from them in exchange of their company. The also get presents from them (sometimes very expensive). Lot's of these men like girl in school uniform. They often require them to wear it, even if it's the holiday or a week-end. With the long falling white socks of course, a purely Japanese sexual fantasy. These socks are forbidden at schools but girls wear them because they know it's sexy (and old dirty men with money will have a look at them). Girls who actually sell their body are more numerous than we would expect. Some surveys (check the other waiwai stories on the Mainichi online) say as much as 10% of girls between 15 and 25 do it. They can get 30000yen for a "uri" (lit. : sale, which is of their body), in less than an hour; much better than a student job at MacDo that only makes 800yen/h. That explains how they afford their Louis Vuiton and Chanel bags, clothes by Gucci and Versace or even a Bulgari watch at 2 millions yen. But there are so many of them in Ginza that just seem to have all their time for shopping and no work to care about. What's the point of all this ?


You will find more stories compiled from the Daily Mainichi's WaWai column in the book Tokyo Confidential: Titillating Tales From Japan's Wild Weeklies, by Mark Schreiber (http://www.wa-pedia.com/review/showproduct.php/item/435).

Maciamo
Jul 25, 2002, 13:26
Check this as well : http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/0207/020718teens.html

Kids are ashamed of sex. Prepubescent are wearing sexy clothes and underwear, putting on make up and participate to telephone dating club because they want to try sex (and make money). That's a sick world (or is this the future ?).

thomas
Jul 25, 2002, 19:50
The following article claims that at least they feel no guilt about it.
:)

Teen girls linked to paid sex feel no guilt, police survey shows

=> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=223617

moyashi
Jul 25, 2002, 20:08
Why should you feel guilty for getting money for getting laid?
Would I? .... hmmm ...

I'm much more interested in how they feel emotionally and rationally about doing it with somebody that could easy be their father or ... grandfather.

You hear stories all the time of fathers bumping into their daughters or daughter's friends. Well, I've wondered about the legitability of those stories though.

Well, I do know teachers that have said they've met their graduate students in soap lands. hmmm ... I didn't hear if they did it with them though.

I have had students who dated guys older than me and some even got allowances from them. About $300 a month, not much but enough to have fun with their friends.

Let's not forget the used clothes that are bought on the streets. Still warm is the preference it seems.

Of course, not all girls have this experience and also this type of thing normally stays to the big cities.


Well ... things happen I guess.

Maciamo
Jul 26, 2002, 01:06
I know there is no shame or guilt about it in Japan. The reason is : they don't have "our" Judeo-Christian morals (eventhough I am an atheist, the society's moral rules influence us since the craddle). So no shame about sex and like other Asian countries, "prostitution" is part of the daily life. In Japan, there are only laws about sex to give an honorable facade internationally and to avoid to disturb public order, from what I have understood (no deep conscience or rigid moral). If it works like this it's might be good, but I am affraid of the spread of diseases like AIDS. Japanese people (especially young girls) seem sometimes so naives and childish they don't even care about using condoms. What's more, it's common knowledge in Japan that only foreigners have AIDS and that Japanese are kind of immune from it. That is very scary when you know that they usually don't take HIV test for they fear to be positive ! Who reallly knows how many people have AIDS now in Japan.

thomas
Jul 26, 2002, 06:12
It seems to be true that "sexual restrictions" have been imposed upon Japanese society mostly by external influences: during Meiji Era (in Japan's bid for westernization) as well as in the postwar period: prostitution was outlawed in 1958, so most of the famous red-light districts had to close down, also in the light of the Olympics that were to be held in Tokyo in 1964. Well, "officially" outlawed...

I wouldn't restrict sexual naivity or negligence to girls only. Just think of the hordes of salarymen invading SE Asian countries in search of sexual pleasures. A large amount of Japanese HIV-positive contracted the disease during such holidays.

deborah gormley
Jul 26, 2002, 08:51
Young girls should be more careful,
This age that we live in is dangerous and at times the young adults are totally oblivious to these nasty sexual deseases, I dont agree with young girls allowing themselves to used and paid for sex, its almost unbelieveable, although I am aware of these actions I would only advise these girls too take all precautions and ensure their safety, its a sad reality and a sad way of live:bow:

moyashi
Jul 26, 2002, 10:59
These girls aren't being used actually. The girls doing Enjo-kousai are doing it as if it's a part time job. There's no pimp, no daddy pushing them. Some might be persuded by peer pressure as in the "money is really good and easy". It's pretty much self owned business.

Sexual education in schools is close to nil. Most young boys buy magazines and learn from there. Technique and what not. Major magazine would be [sukora-] (scholar).

I'd say that most girls are much more up on using condomes than the boys. I've met quite a few girls who carried their own supply. But it's the boys who prefer it raw than rubbered and some girls bend to that kind of pressure.

I agree with Thomas, it's the business men who went to SE Asia on sex trips that brought a lot of this back to Japan. The men catch it, spread it to their girl friends and wives who spread it to their boyfriends.

Maciamo is right. I have 1 Japanese friend who has taken the test, the rest of the group laughs about it when they're sick.

The boys school I work at during their school festival noramlly run a special exhibit about STD's but that room is always empty.

deborah gormley
Jul 27, 2002, 09:09
yes moyashi your quite right, even here the sexual education classes are always empty, our local surgery has education on these topics and they have specified "no appiontment nessary" ect and the young adult birthrate here is astonishing, its sad and almost unreal,,,, but it happens!! I personaly know of a young girl of the tender age of 14,(which is not usually the case) who for some time has been a product of this so called "young evaluation" and has been the target of all "needy men" in a 5 mile radious, (due to the fact thats there's not many young girls willing to sell themselves for an accasional meal or a pass time) but this particular girl has fallen pregnant to a man who's identidy is some where in the region of 50-1 which is totally crazy, and this is the sad bit!! :bow: no precations at any given time due to peer presure and the innocents or the stupidy of the girl!!:bawling: sad sad sad!!!!

thomas
Sep 4, 2002, 21:42
The same problem from a hygienical perspective.

Efforts failing to keep Roppongi girls clean

=> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=kuchikomi&id=192&display=all

Maciamo
Sep 5, 2002, 00:20
I found this very good remark in the comments on the links :
In the land of the rising vending machine it's supprising that you don't see them dispensing condoms.

Well, it doesn't make money to gov. officials through amakudari and bribes from condom companies, so it's highly unlikely that the government will ever take the step. Asahi, Kirin, Suntory and other drink companies take the initiative themself, but I understand that condom companies be more reluctant as few people (in Roppongi) use them anyway - and love hotels always provide them. Oddly enough, among this plethora of vending machines, you can only find drinks, never food (chocolates, yoghurts, waffles, chips...) like in Europe. Not a single of them ! Isn't it weird ? They sell used girl "panties" in jidouhanbaiki, but not condoms, nor food.

samuraitora
Sep 5, 2002, 02:27
One thing that is nice about the states is that we supply condoms in high schools and have required Sex Ed classes. Our STD rate is dropping because of this. Almost every bar and night club sells condoms in the bathrooms and everyone in the US can list at least 5 STDs.

About getting paid for sex, most people look at sex as something that is sacred and should only be shared with the one you "love". That is the Christian belief coming out of us. Look at the animals, Sex is an activity for procreation only. There are few animals that have sex for reasons other than to procreate. People attach too much emotion to sex. Some people I know have the thought that sex is just an activity, like football or going to the movies. For this reason, they have sex with their friends. Something they can share to bring them closer together and have some fun, RESPOSIBLY. They are not hurting or cheating on anyone. Just out to have a good time.

Getting paid for sex can fall under the same idea. It can be demoralizing, if the person lets it. It can also be extremely fun and profitable if your careful.

*just playing devils advocate.

moyashi
Sep 5, 2002, 03:59
I've seen 1 condome selling vending machine in a total of 10 years. It was located in a residental neighborhood too!!! lol ... no wonder the birthrate is now 1.3

I've also seen pantyhose (not used) vending machines. Haven't figured out the use for it but my ex-girlfriend said that such machines are useful if you spend the night with your boyfirend.

Japan normally doesn't give out the pill either. Health risks and blah blah blah. Although, I know you can get the pill to delay your period for that special vacation. Recently, however getting the pill is getting slightly easier.

The funny thing is that abortion is used in place of condomes or other devices. An abortion runs about $800. Girls that work in the pink (errr "red") district go to abortion clinics that are about a 5 minute walk from their SoapLand. Hey, it's a better business than prescribing pills.

samuraitora
Sep 5, 2002, 05:33
as high of respect that I have for the Japanese, this is a little unnerving.

moyashi
Sep 5, 2002, 11:28
Tell me about it. But I guess that any culture has their strange side to it. Japan just has lots of strange sides that take time to get used to.

thomas
Sep 5, 2002, 18:20
@ condoms

I always thought that Japanese use condoms more frequently than people in other industrialized countries (also due to the fact that the pill was more or less unavailable until 2 or 3 yrs ago)

@ abortion

I am very very far from being a religious zealot, but it's indeed unnerving to see abortion taken "so easily"

@ pill


In March 1998, decades of campaigning by Japanese reproductive rights advocates once more met with defeat, as the Japanese Ministry of Health and Welfare elected to delay indefinitely the licensing of the pill for use as a contraceptive in Japan. Over the years, through several failed attempts at changing this situation, health officials have cited numerous reasons for their position on the pill--among them concern over side effects, fears about the potential spread of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) if pill use replaces condom use and, most recently, worries about the environmental effects of hormonal contraceptive use. In the end, though, Japan remains unique in banning one of the most widely used contraceptive methods in the world--as well as all other hormonal contraceptives.

Source: http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/3104499.html

Meanwhile the pill is no longer banned, but still not very common. Considering the fact that the number of women in Japan suffering from endomitriosis is higher than in other countries, the pill should be prescribed more often (lol, haven't studied medicine, just read about that issue).

Related article:

Japan OK's Pill, Cautiously

=> http://www.wired.com/news/topstories/0,1287,21576,00.html

Maciamo
Sep 6, 2002, 00:29
everyone in the US can list at least 5 STDs.

Wow, maybe they can list more STDs than cities in Japan. :D I wonder what percentage of the US population knows who is vice-president. I heard there were still American people who thought New York was their capital.
Sorry, don't take it personally, but it's a bit hard to believe that the average American people can name 5 STDs (especially with the odd name they have).

Maciamo
Sep 6, 2002, 00:40
About getting paid for sex, most people look at sex as something that is sacred and should only be shared with the one you "love". That is the Christian belief coming out of us. Look at the animals, Sex is an activity for procreation only. There are few animals that have sex for reasons other than to procreate.

Japanese people ain't Christian (and me neither). Japan has no such taboo about sex. To understand Japanese (or East-Asian) people, you should understand that life is 3 things that can all be obtained by money : eating, drinking, having sex. Contrarily to the US were religious priniciples make the law (it vaguely reminds me of some countries in the Middle East), Japanese law aim to kee the social order and conform themself to international "values". Prostitution has been officially made illegal in Japan because of interational pressure and to suit the image of modern and developed country. In Edo-jidai, prostitution had been restricted to some districts to avoid disturbing the social order (not for moral or religious reasons).

moyashi
Sep 6, 2002, 01:51
@ condoms
Their usage last as long as the woman can say "no" to unprotected sex. Hmmm, 2 -3 times?

@ STDS
I bet most Japanese can only name those that they've had. Men that is. Most women probably don't know they're infected for a while.

@ abortion
Yeah, it really is weird. Well, it's that or marriage. If you're a lady of the night that would severly cut into your income.

@ yoshiwara
Like most things in Japan, things change but the essence stays the same. Up here in Susukino the area survies as does well. I've heard that men wait up to an hour to get their soap bath ;)

@ Kabuki
Kabuki has it's foundations in women selling their wares on the edge of town. Although, the Tokugawa government prosecuted enough that Kabuki emerged.

thomas
Sep 6, 2002, 05:03
I'm wondering if teenage prostitution also such a hot topic in J-media...
:confused:

Schoolgirl prostitution gets fresh facelift

=> http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/0209/020904enko.html

deborah gormley
Sep 6, 2002, 22:45
If this is the "new way" of school girl life, then surely all nessasary precautions should be taken, threw schools, surgerys and even at home, it should be preached and not taught to keep your self safe and free from STD's and unwanted pregnancys, these starry eyed school girls who are easily pleased(and cost efficient)should be taken aside and given condoms,pills and not to forget a lesson on infectious and dangerous laisons, I cant help but feel sorry for these girls, as the have given up there innocents and there self respect all for peices of clothing that no matter how expensive it is or how pretty they look, the clothing cant cover up their deeds,or their way of life:bow: its so dishearting!!

moyashi
Sep 7, 2002, 06:06
"sometimes, I really feel like punching them out"
"you fell like reminding them who is paying for the session!"

Great lines.

Now, of course, not all girls do this but it's not an urband legend either.

wow, $50 bucks ... now that's economics for you.

Funny thing is that very few ever get caught ...

deborah gormley
Sep 7, 2002, 08:04
but their parents must notice a change in them moyashi???

new clothes that the parents simply cant afford or did not purchase!! they must know somethings wrong I'm sure that the lines "my friend gave then too me!" does not work??/

parents sayings "once you earn your own money then you can spend it on these high priced clothes, drink it smoke it ect" I was a young girl once with these very words, and I worked in a fast food take-away at the age of 14 just to get these items, but selling my-self was never an option, it was never even in my head!! what has happened to the youth???

moyashi
Sep 9, 2002, 02:49
ugh, I totally ageree. Selling, yourself under the age of 20 is just stupidity.
Most parents would die if they knew the truth. Problem is that they don't have the brains to ask.

Maybe, it's pure economics. A quicky for $100 or work for 18 hours or so.

ughhh

deborah gormley
Sep 9, 2002, 08:39
yes I see the attraction,, :bow: but now at these tender ages, selling them-selves for items of stature, whats next? I would not like to see one of these girls in 10-15 years time, when all their priorities are much different and they might become (in my opinion) more needy and more reliaint on quick cash, that scares me!, but I suppose if its clothes and fashion items they are spending this quick cash on, they really are not that bad, its when drugs ect are the focus, thats when its a real problem!:bow:

moyashi
Sep 10, 2002, 01:20
hmmm, interesting thing is happening. Before at one time many would ahem mend their ways and return to a somewhat normal life. But, recently you see news stories of mothers and fathers killing their children since they cry too much, they no longer have "play" time or are just a pain in the a_s.

Drugs are normally for the young kids. Most 30 years have grown out of it.

thomas
Sep 22, 2002, 16:45
More on teenage prostitution:

Slanted sex culture stoking deviant desire in schoolgirls

"Mamoru Fukutomi, professor at Tokyo Gakugei University, attributes problems involving teen-age prostitution through Internet dating sites to men's distorted awareness of sexuality and a lack of appropriate sexual education. [...]"

Hear, hear...

=> http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/features/0209/020911schoolgirls.html

moyashi
Sep 24, 2002, 03:40
hmmm ... but nothing beats supply and demand.

Probably the only way out of this vicious circle is to break the economics involved here. Put more Osakan Ingenuity into Soaplands and drop the prices. Or put the police on the streets, enforce the drinking age which will kill many local drinking districts and the economy with it, yet, protect the young girls.

However, sadly, I bet economics will win since the Police spend more time figuring out what type of ramen to order rather than trying to figure out where the bad guys are lurking ;)

deborah gormley
Sep 24, 2002, 09:06
very true moyashi,, sad state of affairs all round.

moyashi
Sep 24, 2002, 11:08
hmmm ... thought of something else.

Girls need to be taught that they should date guys in their own age group. My students being 16-18 think 33 is quite reasonable. Happy for me but sadens me anyway.

thomas
Sep 25, 2002, 00:57
These guys have the cash. Isn't that the issue? Saddening, I agree.

moyashi
Sep 25, 2002, 01:36
Cash, experience, cars, and free time and balls to go after the girls.

The sad thing is that most of these sick jiji's when at home get nagged by their daughters for having smelly feet and are good for nothing beyond giving out allowances.

Olivia
Sep 25, 2002, 08:28
seems to me that at this age, most girls don't conceive relationship as a way for exchanging feelings/emotions, but for making money, so unless men are extremely 'jijis', they consider it reasonable to date them.

so, it is not a one way relationship: while men are seeking for pleasure, physical satisfaction, 'ne-chans' can satisfy their wishes (necessity?) of being trendy... no strings attached

pretty sad...

Maciamo
Sep 25, 2002, 23:24
"Schools only threaten girls if they prostitute themselves to men by warning, 'it could be dangerous,' 'you might be infected with diseases,' and 'you might get pregnant.' However, they fail to teach them why teen-age prostitution is wrong," he said.

I think the situation is not going to change because Japan doesn't have the same "Judeo-christian" value system as most Westerners. Sex has always been more free in East Asia, especially in Japan. In such a male-oriented society, there is little chance that teenage prostitution should be viewed as more "immoral" in the future. Parents and teachers can't tell the girls why it's wrong because they don't know either. The male parents or teachers might well take advantage of this system and who knows what mothers did before to be married to buy their LV bags (or even after). This concept of immorality is a recent import to Japan. Japanese understand its wrong because of diseases or pregnancy risks. They can't see a moral issue in it as they haven't been raised in fear of a allmighty god that could punish them for not following a puritan moral. That's also why prostitution is so developped in East Asia (China used to be the worst before communism and it's already becoming a new Thailand as the countries relaxes its zero-tolerance policies).

"Parents should tell children why prostitution is bad. Parents and children should discuss equality between men and women and women's role at home and work, for example. Then, children will learn to understand that Internet dating sites and teen-age prostitution are immoral," he said.

Come on. I have never heard of equality between sexes in Japan. That's also an imported concept. In my wife's family, I couldn't cook and do the washing (up) if we were to follow her mother or grandmother's guidance. The wife must do the housework. There is a clear separation between male and female tasks. Her mother would get angry if I started doing the washing after a meal together. She would scold my wife for not preparing my breakfast if she sees me doing it myself. Even like this they are supposed to be quite "modern" and "open". Even my wife who has lived abroad agrees with such a mentality. I feel ill at ease with it, as for me there is no social differences between men and women.

moyashi
Sep 26, 2002, 02:47
lol ... Maciamo complains about not being able to do house chores. I complain about doing too many.

@ immorality
I'm concerned about this issue because of the consequences rather than the imidiate satisfaction that is found by both parties involved. (too bad there wasn't a market for men ...)

Imagine what will happen after these girls mature and have children of their own.

just great ...

Olivia
Sep 28, 2002, 04:06
@ maciamo comments on his wife
that's pretty interesting, because my mother, who was also born in Japan and has lived abroad (Europe and now, Brazil), has the same opinion on housework as your wife!... she thinks she has to do the laundry and cook meals for everybody, all the time, and so does she expect the same from me too. sometimes i wonder if she's doing too much, but that's probably due to the cultural difference.

Olivia
Sep 28, 2002, 04:15
@ immorality
yes, i agree with you, moyashi. it is about a long term issue not a short term one (like you mentioned, "the immediate satisfaction"), but the problem is that they (the japanese) don't even have a clue about it. and that is the worst thing, because this prostitution will continue to go on and on and nobody will consider it immoral or will take an action in order to break this cycle (vicious circle)...

Maciamo
Sep 28, 2002, 11:22
@long term issue
I also agree. I believe that is due to the Japanese world view or way of thinking. It's the same for the economy ; as long as they can buy their usual stuff and keep their job, they don't worry too much or don't really try to change the disfunctioning system. Japanese can't project the future or think about remote consequences of their acts. Their principle is : "the longest you can live exploiting the current situation, the best (even if it has dreary consequences later)".

The worst case scenario for Japan in 10 or 20 years would be : a majority of the people with AIDS as nobody cared, tested, respected the basic safety precautions, then the total collapse of the economy as debts are growing higher every year to maintain the situation fairly stable (until it breaks). Japanese won't make a revolution by themselves.

There has been 2 big social, legal, economic and political revolution in Japanese history. The first was the Meiji Restoration prompted by the arrival of comodore Perry and the pressure of Western countries to open Japan for trade (and fears of being colonised). The second was in 1945 with the American occupation and imposition of a new constitution. When will the next revolution come (because it is badly needed, even if it's not apparent when you walk in the streets). The question is, where will it come from ? Japanese people are too obediant and law-abiding to do anything without foreign support or catastrophic situation. If a major earthquake hits Tokyo, then things could change, but let's hope it doesn't happen this way.

PS : By the way, I recommend the reading of "Dogs & Demons : the fall of modern Japan", by Alex Kerr (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0141010002/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-9777665-6214005), to anybody interested in the problems that Japan faces now and in the future.
A Japanese version (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4062081016/ref=sr_aps_b_3/249-5113416-0237117) is also available.

thomas
Sep 28, 2002, 16:31
Their principle is: "the longest you can live exploiting the current situation, the best (even if it has dreary consequences later.

That sounds like the worst example of pragmatism and indifference I've ever heard of. It seems that there is little respect for future generations in Japan. With old traditions and social structures crumbling I'm wondering if younger people will adopt more responsibility and common sense.

I've just ordered Kerr's book through Amazon yesterday.

Maciamo
Sep 28, 2002, 19:14
With old traditions and social structures crumbling I'm wondering if younger people will adopt more responsibility and common sense.

I can only speak for my personal experience here, but I see very well that my wife would do anything to please her grandmother (do her shopping whenever she call to give her order, etc.), but the grandmother doesn't care at all about her. When my wife first went to study in London, she called her grandmother to say she felt homesick and wanted to go back home (that was before we met ;-) ), but she would just tell her "no way, you wanted to go now you stay !", when she just wanted to hear tender words. When we went to live in Japan, the grandmother didn't give a **** of where she had been, what she had done, etc. We had travelled a lot, but the grandmother never asked a question, looked at the pictures or showed the slightest interest. The only thing she sees in her granddaughter is a kind of de facto servant. But when I ask my wife how she can bear to be treated like this, she replies that I shouldn't criticise her grandmother because justly that's her grandmother and because she has worked hard all her life and had to be respected and cared for accordingly.

It doesn't surprised me at all that older generations don't care about younger ones. As you say so well, Thomas, it's extremely selfish and indifferent from them. The trouble is that the people with power in Japan are the elderly. All CEO's and higher government officials and politicians are at least 50 years old, but more often near 70. That's why nothing is going to change till they have died. They are not caring about the future of Japan. As long as they stay rich using and abusing of the current system, they'll be happy, whoever has to pay the consequences later (anyway, they won't be there to see it).

Note that young Japanese are kind of weak compared to the over 50. I guess it's normal, you are tougher if you've experienced the hardship of war and reconstruction than if you were born with a kitty-chan in your craddle and had it on your school bag later.

thomas
Sep 28, 2002, 23:25
You are right Maciamo, it's probably a matter of age, as the war generation in Europe had/has its interpersonal deficiencies as well. Still, I found my grandparents as well as other people in their age group nothing else but caring and sacrificing because of the war-related hardship they had to experience.

All of what has been stated in this thread is so diametrically different from the image we have of Japan in the West. Harmony, politeness and respect for others. Sheesh, just take my wife's company, a Japanese semi-governmental dinosaur, no names given. I've never seen such a concentration of incompetence, ruthlessness, perfidy, exploitation and selfishness. The hierarchies are ridiculous and only depend on seniority. The top brass view the company as personal property and behave like Roman governors (with a similar justification as your wife's grandmother: 'Since we have served our company for 30 years, we are entitled to respect and "benefits"!'). Headquarter tolerates it, because it seems to be the system. So the CEO's wife uses the company CC to shop etc, while at the same time employees' salaries are cut, "because of the economic situtation". Harmony is inexistent, motivation at rockbottom.

I apologise for the strong words, but they really don't give a **** for others! It hurts to see such an attitude.

moyashi
Sep 30, 2002, 01:08
@ Senority system.

Something that probably won't change easily. It's hard to oust power mongrels that slurp up company funds and do squat for work. But that is their right since they busted *** for 20+ years so this is a kind of payoff for them that most workers take for granted. Although, with many loosing their jobs this remains to be seen how much longer this will last.

@ grandmother
I've seen more grandmothers that are more activie than mothers. Maciamo, I think you're wife's situation was probably from the start opposed too. In a sense, I bet, she cut her relations with your wife (en wo kiru) then when she came back (I'm guessing here) she brought a gaijin husband that put the virtual nail in the coffin. She might come around once you have children. (I hope that I didn't make a mistake about your information, I'm guessing alot here.)

@ cultural revolution

But it's happening right now. It's hard to see something when you're living through it but I pretty sure we're going through such a social change right now.

proverb.
Grandfather works and makes money. The father spends and squanders all. The grandson is left poor.

The timimg is about right since the Post war generation busted *** to get what they have. While the Baby boom generation is busy creating debt and loans to live their Bubble economy life styles. My generation is left with the affect of no jobs, brand appeal and 75 year house loans to payoff.

Maciamo
Sep 30, 2002, 13:03
@ grandmother
I've seen more grandmothers that are more activie than mothers. Maciamo, I think you're wife's situation was probably from the start opposed too. In a sense, I bet, she cut her relations with your wife (en wo kiru) then when she came back (I'm guessing here) she brought a gaijin husband that put the virtual nail in the coffin. She might come around once you have children. (I hope that I didn't make a mistake about your information, I'm guessing alot here.)

Well, that was a wrong guess. The realtionship between my wife and her grandmother has always been like that (not since we are together). She told me it was even worse when she was a child. She didn't cut her relationship with my wife as we see each other everyday (me and the grandmother too !). The marriage hasn't been opposed but rather pushed by the grandmother as a condition to live together (kind of old-fashioned mentality that even my grandparents wouldn't think about nowadays). So, she is naturally authoritarian and sadist. My wife accepts her situation as normal because of the seniority system.

You've maybe noticed that Japan has this almost stereotypical image of the bullying grandmother (even in manga, with a nasty and vicious way of laughing, but it's so true). The interesting thing to see in my family-in-law is that the grandma actually care a lot about her daughter (couldn't probably live without her), but not her granddaughter. Usually it's the opposite in Western countries (grandparents are kinder with their grandchildren).


But it's happening right now. It's hard to see something when you're living through it but I pretty sure we're going through such a social change right now.

Of course, but it's still going to take 40 years before today's youth reach the top of the society (in economics or politics). I really wonder what it will look like...


proverb.
Grandfather works and makes money. The father spends and squanders all. The grandson is left poor.

Yeah, but the grandfather is about 40-50 years old today. Today's youth is squandering the money and their children will be in trouble in a few decades.

moyashi
Oct 1, 2002, 02:14
Sorry, about guessing wrongly.
hmm, move to Hokkaido and skip all that tight_assed (pardon my language) Honshu mentality.

@ future
Hmm, bleach blond hair polliticians wearing $100 suits, $300 monthly cellular phone bills, and driving cars that their parents bought for them.

@ 40-50
According to my older students that age group are the baby boomers. My father-in-law is 60 and that puts him post war baby like my parents.

Youth are busy supporting NTT/Docomo's adventure in Europe ;)

enjeeo
Oct 20, 2002, 19:37
"I agree with Thomas, it's the business men who went to SE Asia on sex trips that brought a lot of this back to Japan. The men catch it, spread it to their girl friends and wives who spread it to their boyfriends."

They also spread it to the girls they pick up for enjo kosai.

As for the idea that there is no guilt or shame involved, what a bunch of crap. It's possible they feel no guilt. This isn't a guilt society. But it IS a shame society, and they are well aware of what other people will think of them.

They don't tell the other kids at school. They'd be horrified if their parents found out. They might admit it to their close friends, especially if they all want the same LV gear. Personally I find the whole idea repulsive, that a teenager (and remember how at that age 25 seemed old) can have sex with a man old enough to be her grandfather, and why? to get a bag. Have they lost their minds? The idea that this might be their total sexual experience is even more horrible. What a way to warp your sexual future.

moyashi
Oct 21, 2002, 15:11
@enjeeo
Welcome and yoroshiku

@ enjo kosai
hmmm ... what can you do though?

Maciamo
Oct 22, 2002, 01:20
Originally posted by moyashi
@enjeeo
Welcome and yoroshiku

@ enjo kosai
hmmm ... what can you do though?

It has just dawned on me that enjeeo and enjo (kosai) were very similar (especially if you consider that "eo" is the way Korean write the Japanese sound "o"). Did you choose your nickname because of enjeeo kosai ?:confused:

ghettocities
Nov 1, 2002, 17:54
you know what the problem is? it's the guys needing to pay for sex, notice ** america has never had such a problem and i don't know any american girls (and i know quite a bit, heh...) who would give one of those infamous "sensual massage (shigeki na massage)" to a salaryman for a half hour to buy a designer handbag. it's pure stupidity and weakness, poverty and the influences of polite slurping.

so be safe, wear a condom! prostitution is illegal in japan, no the age of sexual consent is not twelve, and there is even laws against the whole enjo kosai (aid) even without sex, yet if your a foreigner chances are if you buy a girl lunch one day you'll more than likely get a little something something in return, but remember, as much as japan (tokyo) can seem like a dream it can easily turn into a nightmare, be safe, i made a mistake while i was over there earlier this year being with a girl and returned home with a urinarytract infection, couldnt pee normal for a week, the doctors drew blood to make sure thats all i had and after i had been tested negative for everything except the uti i had to take cipro the same antibiotic they give to people who had anthrax, and thats exactly what "my piece" felt like at the time, so be safe, wear condoms.

p.s. if you don't believe tokyo to have such a crazy nightlife i'm shortly posting clips on my site from the dvd we filmed last/start of this year.

Josh / Ghettocities
Returning to Japan in a few days! fun stuff,

deborah gormley
Nov 2, 2002, 07:19
I must agree with all points made by enjeeo and ghetoocities, sex is a dangerous passtime especially when visiting any country and decideing to engage in the act of sex without knowledge of a partners previous history, but with out this knowledge people still engage in this for fun/kicks/security ect, without so much as a thought of the after effects,
Josh you where very honest and truthfull about your previous experience in Japan,:bow: and its the truth that needs to be told, to wake people up to the dangers of sex when its not with a longtime partner, Josh you have my admiration:bow:
@enjeeo,,, I feel exactly the same way, its a sad way of life,but its a known fact that this is takeing place not just in Japan, some people are just that insecure with there own life that to get money out of someone else's seems to give them a power that they would not usually poccess and how they spend this money ie; handbags,drugs,clothes, food,passport to the stars(hehe) seems to give them some kind of inner power that can only be felt and appreciated by the person (who sells themselves)involved, to us this is totally unrealalistic and this is the reason we cant understand their reasoning:bow:

RockLee
Apr 20, 2005, 06:17
In Thailand u got this scene also going on.I still don't know how people could do such a thing just to get money for their expensive bags...don't they know if u got a (aru)baito u can earn money too :?

PaulTB
Apr 20, 2005, 07:38
Probably the only way out of this vicious circle is to break the economics involved here. Put more Osakan Ingenuity into Soaplands and drop the prices. Or put the police on the streets, enforce the drinking age which will kill many local drinking districts and the economy with it, yet, protect the young girls.
As it happens there have been a lot of crack-downs on brothels and clubs recently - with the usual efforts to find loop-holes and get round the regulations. For example - your club can't stay open very late at night? Open very early in the morning instead. Your brothel got busted? Work as a call girl instead.

One problem is that these crackdowns only really hit the 'middle' of the 'scale of evil' ('scuse the phrasing :blush: ) Those pushed out of the 'illegal but relatively stable 'jobs' at long established brothels etc are either going to go 'up' into something technically legal (like call girls are AFIAK) or down into something even more illegal and dangerous such as street walking. Generally it's easier to slip down than it is to go 'up'.

Tamer Brad
Apr 20, 2005, 08:47
Yeesh, this topic is enough to make me not want to live in Japan anymore.

Ma Cherie
Apr 20, 2005, 08:55
I see another deep social issue that needs to be taken care of. What would make these girls do this to their bodies, other than the fact that it's being bombarded at them through the media? Peer pressure? Because it's a trend? I wonder. :?

Tamer Brad
Apr 20, 2005, 09:03
I see another deep social issue that needs to be taken care of. What would make these girls do this to their bodies, other than the fact that it's being bombarded at them through the media? Peer pressure? Because it's a trend? I wonder. :?

Money. Plain and simple.

A.A. Lee
Apr 21, 2005, 04:54
I disagree that aversion to prostitution is merely the result of Judeo-Christian values. Prostitution is not immoral just because Christians say so. It's bad because for anyone, anywhere you wouldn't want your mother, sister, or daughter to do it, because people, male or female, are worth more than that.

Quite frankly in the Old Testament women were treated like dogs. There were many prostitutes in those times and they were tolerated. The books only speak out against temple prostitutes or priestesses who ***** themselves to idol worshippers. Of course they looked down on whores, but they also looked down on women in general. For the longest time, prostitution was the only viable occupation for many women the world over. Although people looked down on whores, by no means did they put a stop to prostitution or even hindered it, and it flourished in antiquity.

However in modern times, women the world over are seeking equality and pursuing careers in industry. And trust me women who built up their careers look down on whores more than anyone else does. I know I do unless that's the woman's only option. The lives of men and women are going up in value every decade. For instance, nobody in the US had any qualms with slavery 200 hundred years ago, but now it's outlawed nearly everywhere except the most troubled nations.

Prostitution stops when a woman says she's worth more than a few hundred bucks or a LV bag, when she can't be bought. The fact that so many women ***** themselves in Japan testifies to women's low status there.

budd
Apr 22, 2005, 01:37
"this topic is enough to make me not want to live in Japan anymore."
men are men anywhere and EVERYWHERE; maybe a vacation at paradise island is in order?

PaulTB
Apr 22, 2005, 03:49
Money. Plain and simple.

Money, but not at all plain and simple. Why is 30 quid for a few accessories so important and why is the means to get it so unimportant? Those are questions of relative values - and not the literal 'price tag' sort.

I also disagree with the "Unique Japanese culture of prostitution" idea with respect to Enjo Kousai. The idea of young girls prostituting themselves on their own behalf is by no means an old established tradition. The very fact that this phenonomen appeared were it didn't previously exist shows a change has taken / is taking place. If anything this change is likely to be Western cultural 'values' - albeit a subsection.

Emphasis on commercialism, brand goods, what money can buy. Bombardment by adverts and magazines featuring sexy models in sexy situations. Aren't these all outcomes (exaggerated in places) of Western influence brought over to Japan since the 2nd world war?

Tamer Brad
Apr 22, 2005, 06:43
"this topic is enough to make me not want to live in Japan anymore."
men are men anywhere and EVERYWHERE; maybe a vacation at paradise island is in order?

Ahem, I am a boy :p

A.A. Lee
Apr 22, 2005, 07:50
Aren't these all outcomes (exaggerated in places) of Western influence brought over to Japan since the 2nd world war?

No, prostitution in Asian countries has existed for a long time on a large scale. Overt sexual symbols in the media promoted more flexible attitudes towards sex in the West, but not prostitution. Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.

The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West. If this were the case we would hear of Western teenage girls prostituting themselves in large numbers, but this isn't happening. In America, nobody respects a *****. A teenage girl who prostituted herself would automatically lose status no matter how fancy her clothes and accessories are. And the US is the most materialistic country in the world. Enjo kosai results from more lax attitudes towards prostitution in the East, which reflects the lower status of women there.

Maciamo
Apr 22, 2005, 11:50
Money, but not at all plain and simple. Why is 30 quid for a few accessories so important and why is the means to get it so unimportant? Those are questions of relative values - and not the literal 'price tag' sort.

I agree, especially that it is not difficult to find a job for women in Japanese cities where enjo kosai happen. It's just that it's a quick way of making a lot of money, so many girls prefer it to working at a combini or becoming an OL (or they combine enjo kosai with it).

Another problem is when enjo kosai is done by girls under 15, which I heard is quite common, and getting worse with time (always younger and younger). It is also ununderstandable as their parents would probably have bought them what they want, given that Japanese parents usually spoil their children nowadays.


I also disagree with the "Unique Japanese culture of prostitution" idea with respect to Enjo Kousai. The idea of young girls prostituting themselves on their own behalf is by no means an old established tradition. The very fact that this phenonomen appeared were it didn't previously exist shows a change has taken / is taking place. If anything this change is likely to be Western cultural 'values' - albeit a subsection.

Prostitution has always been better accepted in Japan than in the West. The same is true of nudity. The women's status was also lower before than it is today, which can only play toward a higher rate of prostitution.

However, I agree that a mistaken Western influence has played an important role. I heard many Japanese say that they thought Westerners had sex more casually than the Japanese, which is false. When discussing the enjo kosai problem or the omnipresence of soaplands, porn, etc. I was told that the Japanese thought that Westerners approved even more of that given the freedom that women enjoy in Western countries !! They completely misunderstood what femininism was about. It's justly the opposite, i.e. that women should not be treated as sex objects (in a Japanese mind, it means that women are free to have sex with whoever they want, even to get a promotion or get money :mad: ).


Emphasis on commercialism, brand goods, what money can buy. Bombardment by adverts and magazines featuring sexy models in sexy situations. Aren't these all outcomes (exaggerated in places) of Western influence brought over to Japan since the 2nd world war?

I have always had the impression that material goods are more important than "moral values" (e.g. self-respect, pride) in Japan and the rest of East Asia. Maybe that it partly because of the culture of humility, and partly because of collectivism ("everyone is the same, after all"). Rather than enjoying being different, unique or strive for personal achievements to satisfy one's pride, the Japanese enjoy being the same as the rest of the group, to satisfy their recognition from the group or avoid being criticised for being different. This also means that once something becomes accepted by the group, it is difficult to stop it (eg. bicycle & umbrella thefts, enjo kosai, reading porn in trains, etc.), because the "group moral" is stronger than "individual moral".

Maciamo
Apr 22, 2005, 11:52
No, prostitution in Asian countries has existed for a long time on a large scale. Overt sexual symbols in the media promoted more flexible attitudes towards sex in the West, but not prostitution. Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.

The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West. If this were the case we would hear of Western teenage girls prostituting themselves in large numbers, but this isn't happening. In America, nobody respects a *****. A teenage girl who prostituted herself would automatically lose status no matter how fancy her clothes and accessories are. And the US is the most materialistic country in the world. Enjo kosai results from more lax attitudes towards prostitution in the East, which reflects the lower status of women there.

I totally agree with you here.

PaulTB
Apr 22, 2005, 17:05
The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West. If this were the case we would hear of Western teenage girls prostituting themselves in large numbers, but this isn't happening.

That doesn't logically follow. Just because influence of country A results in some situation in country B doesn't mean that the same situation is present in country A.


No, prostitution in Asian countries has existed for a long time on a large scale.
Which I'm not disagreeing with. Of course prostitution has also existed for a long time on a large scale in most of the countries of the world.


Overt sexual symbols in the media promoted more flexible attitudes towards sex in the West, but not prostitution.
But as you point out the West isn't the East. The same influence (westernised media sex symbols) doesn't have to have the exact same result.

Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.
Technically I think that makes them sluts.*


In America, nobody respects a *****.
As opposed to sluts.


A teenage girl who prostituted herself would automatically lose status no matter how fancy her clothes and accessories are.
And when found out they lose status like nobody's business in Japan. It's now a fairly common problem for girl who have been involved in Enjo kousai and have pictures / movies get out on the Internet. If you think their status isn't lost you're nuts.


And the US is the most materialistic country in the world. Enjo kosai results from more lax attitudes towards prostitution in the East, which reflects the lower status of women there.
Granting the 'more lax attitudes towards prostitution' that only provides _one_ of the variables. Increased materialism and changing attitudes to sex form two of the others.

* Yes 'slut' is a nasty word - but so is '*****' which you've chosen to throw around.

nurizeko
Apr 22, 2005, 19:06
ive always beleieved in the fact that just because an american-european thinks something isnt entirely right, doesnt make it so, and that we shouldnt judge other cultures and interfere beyond reason but....

sometimes their are certain aspects of another countries condition which i just feel cannot be protected by any given excuse.

enjo kasai, teenage prostitution is wrong, smack my opinion down as nothing more then western christian bigotry or whatever all you want, but i feel teenage prostitution is wrong, no matter what the country or culture.

i have friends who smoke pot, i dont care, its their choice, i know of girls who dont sell themselves, but sleep around like a marathon runner runs a race, hey its their choice, but i stop short of under-age girls selling themselves.

i know, im an evil evil man who deserves eternal damnation for my pseudo-christian evilness even though im not christian or of any religious persuasion outside of science and maybe a the odd passing philosophical hypothesis regarding those momments surrounded by nature.

and to a lesser extent, even though im not fond of the openess of this lolicon fetish in japan, and how blatantly avaliable pornographic imagry is in japan, that is somewhat more allowed to be excused by cultural difference.

think of cultural differences in respect to deciding what is just different or whats wrong like this......



if you were a father/mother, would you feel content with your daughter being an item of sexual desire by middle aged salary men ,and the prospect of her selling her body just to afford that accessory or clothing or bag or whatever?



after thinking from this viewpoint, picturing myself as a japanese father, ide still want to punch any dirty old man staring at my 13 year old daughter, but my western evil bias might still be in there somewhere.

isayhello
Apr 22, 2005, 22:19
Money. Plain and simple.
Not entierly true. Money would be one reason, but there are others.
To feel appreciated, or accepted among friends.
Some might even do it to feel that they have power. The power to attract men who would give you anything to be able to spend time with you.

nurizeko
Apr 22, 2005, 23:00
i think a large problem is japans overall apathy towards stopping it, it stops short of openly feeling okay with it, japanese guys just dont seem interested enough in stopping it.

A.A. Lee
Apr 26, 2005, 05:11
Originally posted by PaulTB:
"That doesn't logically follow. Just because influence of country A results in some situation in country B doesn't mean that the same situation is present in country A."


You said teenage prostitution in Japan was the result of Western influences without mentioning any other reasons. If it were purely the result of Western influences then logically the same thing would happen in the West. But this is not the case and I merely stated this and other reasons why this happens in Japan and not America.

Still your argument does have merit. A lot of girls here work menial jobs to buy more girly crap, which is a total waste of time and effort. While boys are encouraged to play sports and work with tools, girls are encouraged to shop and wear fancy clothes. However shopping just wastes money and fancy clothing doesn't do anything useful. These are all passive activities where you just do what you're told. Gap, Express, and Co tell girls what style to wear and they just follow it. Watching movies and tv is the same way. You're merely a spectator and you have no control over what happens. Unfortunetly the hobbies of many women only consists of shopping, watching movies, and other passive activities. In other words even in the West boys are taught to be more active and competitive, and girls are still taught to be more passive. This means that women are not as prepared to compete in the business world as men.

Fashion is the worst culprit because it fosters low self esteem in girls who do not fit the ideal image that's advertised everywhere. Of course in America, this doesn't lead teenage girls to prostitution as whores are always protrayed as victims and outcasts, but it still undermines the confidence and independent thinking of women. Women also burn up valuable capital on frivolous junk. Fashion companies engender insecurity in girls and then prey on that insecurity to make money. In short, they're evil and women should stop buying their crap.

AngkorianKnight
Jun 8, 2005, 03:06
I haven't read the whole thread, just some on the first page, but this clarifies a lot of things up for me. I guess they really want the cash (to buy stuff) so they can at least have what their friends have or something of that nature. I never understood why some people are very materialistic.

Pachipro
Jun 8, 2005, 03:41
On average the Japanese are very materialistic. To them, sporting a brand name item is more important than anything. It kind of shows that they have "class" or that they are "hip". For some reason, most Japanese women MUST have name brand handbags, scarfs, perfume, etc. and to acquire these items some young Japanese women do turn to prostitution or find a "sugar daddy" in order to flaunt these items in public. Others may work as hostesses at night in order to earn the extra cash to afford these items. Men will also do the same by spending most of their hard earned money for name brand items like golf clubs, belts, colognes; etc. Just look at the thread about the Mandom commercial for what we would call in the states "Baby Wipes". If it's cool and "talents" are using them then they must have it regardless of the cost.

I have dated and known quite a few women who felt this way and who spent all their hard earned money in the persuit of these items. It is something I have never completely understood. Needless to say these relationships never lasted very long after I found out what was "important" to them.

bossel
Jun 9, 2005, 09:37
I split the thread, the issue of generally "legalising prostitution" can be found here (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17699).

Reiko_no_Tabi
Jun 10, 2005, 14:54
Gah, reading all this makes me glad I believe until waiting until I'm married to have sex. *Never will that ideal waver...* But in response to
Prostitution stops when a woman says she's worth more than a few hundred bucks or a LV bag, when she can't be bought. I have to say you put it perfectly. That statement resonated with me more than any other I've read. :yeahh:

Shin_ji80
Jun 10, 2005, 17:35
Hi there :)

The true is, I really don't know what's going on with this world (not particularly targeting any country). Well, no offence or anything. Just that my way of thinking are more to tradition.

I can't accept things like that which you ruin your own body that given by your parents which is the biggest gift of all. I wish to ask the girls today, what is the most important things in life? Is that money? Well, there are always things that money can't buy as your......first time. If you guys know what I mean. It is the most precious things in the world where you can only have 1.

Money, we can earn it and loss it easily, however, there are a lot of things which are important may be loss forever if you don't appreciate it.

I can't accept the concept of marrying just for accompany. Well, if you just need someone beside you, there always friends be there for you. Wife will be different where they will give birth to your children and take care of the family. Family member is very important where money can't buy. Can you imagine a husband or wife sleep with someone else (stranger) just for money? We are all corrupted and how are we going to set good example to our next generations?

I am getting worry about my future as well where I hardly trust anyone today. I am also getting worry that my children will mix with the people they shouldn't mix with. I just wish for a better future for my children.

I know I can't do anything about it. But....I just wish 1 day someone will see what I see and I entrust this to my future children. Hope a better world coming tomorrow. :(

Reiko_no_Tabi
Jun 11, 2005, 01:16
Thinking of it from another perspective, whatever people may say about religion (Christian in general), whether you believe or you don't or you don't know, I'm glad that I live in a nation where it is. Although a lot of people aren't "Christians" in the strictest sense and I hesistate to use the term for myself because of how loosely it is used, I think that it (as well as other religions) provides kind of moral guidelines, almost like a list of instructions. I've known a lot of people who've rarely followed them, but even so they know right from wrong from what they've been taught, whether they follow it or not. So I can better understand the reason for something like enjo kosai happening only because I realize that the religious and moral standpoints vary from country to country. I hate to say I "understand" it, because I certainly don't agree with it. When I hear about stuff like that happening I just wish that people would stop and realize that they're worth so much more than any dollar (or yen) amount. Ah well... :worried: