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View Full Version : Priest predicts hell for deceased



Maciamo
Jul 18, 2003, 10:45
Church sued for 'hell prediction' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3074245.stm)


A New Mexico family is suing its local Catholic church over a funeral Mass at which the priest allegedly said their relative was going straight to hell.
The family of Ben Martinez, 80, allege that Reverend Scott Mansfield said he was "living in sin," "lukewarm in his faith" and that "the Lord vomited people like Ben out of his mouth to hell". :D

jeisan
Jul 19, 2003, 14:22
...sucks to be him.

though i dont think the church should be liable to pay for something like that, 1st dude is dead it cant really be hurting his charactor or anything. 2nd if they choose to put their "faith" in hell and then proceed to lead "sinful" life what do they expect? they know the rules of their religion, you can just be bad all your life then expect to be put in heaven. 3rd hes DEAD!! what does it matter!? shame on them and their frivilous lawsuit. :auch:

PS suing god is not one of the best ways to get into heaven, maybe the good reverend will tell them where their headed as well. :evil:

jeisan
Jul 19, 2003, 14:46
and another thing they are suing for severe physical suffering!? WTF!! did the preists comments leave them battered and bruised, complete with black eyes and broken legs? i dont remember words having such powers. :shock: i just dont understand the mentality of such people.

doudesuka
Aug 7, 2003, 13:48
People are getting foolish and crazy these days!!!!!!!

People are so blanking sensitive to everything. It makes you paranoid to even point out the truth. Truth hurts sometimes, these people need to get a grip on their thinking patterns and resolve them quickly. I hope commons sense comes back soon! It flew away quite a while ago.

KoranRi
Aug 24, 2003, 13:22
I don't really see a reason to sue, but I sorta understand. If you really, truely believe in hell, that's definately hurtful, but I think people are just looking for reasons to sue these days.

TheSpectre
Aug 27, 2003, 04:32
That was harsh, but oh well.

MtoM
Sep 11, 2003, 16:07
If you be believe in hell then you should believe in paradise

code7rei
Sep 11, 2003, 16:31
i don't actually believe in god (still searching..), but i believe we should do good things to other people and nature.

ben0a4
Sep 20, 2003, 02:12
we are living in hell :happy: /paradise too for that matter.
as an atheist i don't believe in god nor afterlive, :wave:

Mashu
Sep 20, 2003, 04:39
Yup, the truth hurts. But I don't understand how you can sue a religion for what they preach when you volunteer to participate in it.

ninthsaphir
Sep 20, 2003, 12:32
I don't really want to play the devil's advocate, but...

Pouring out words of fire and brimstone on family members, especially during a funeral is a very low thing to do.

Focusing less on religious and legal matters and more on immediate emotional ones, I can't see how one can see the plaintiff in such a negative light, unless the man Ben was a serial killer or the family a notorious ring of gravediggers.

So I would hesitate to say that "the truth hurts" as I don't personally know the people themselves. As far as I know, and as far as the article allows us, "They say Mr Martinez had been a practising Catholic all his life, but was too ill to attend church in his last year" was the only grounds to attack him. By saying "the truth hurts" one of course acknowledges the validity of the priest's attacks, and in a way the priest's "religious truth" of sin and damnation and self-righteousness in general.

Looking at this from an attemptedly unbiased cultural/religious perspective (although I generally don't agree with Christianity), I can see how this can impact a Catholic family within a Catholic society-- sins of the father and all that, if not in spirit then certainly in society. And I believe, and I could be wrong, that New Mexico is a predominantly Catholic state. I don't mean the family JUST HAS to be Catholic because of that, of course, but it is a moré; one cannot expect people to simply fly in the face of morés even under the light of whatever sound anti-Catholic argument is given.

I don't think it's fair to blame the family along with the religion since the family is living within the religion's context. And sure, while it is an individual's choice of a religion, it is also an automatic choice in this Catholic society/norm. (note: I suspect you may want to argue an analogy with Nazism, but remember in Milgram's experiment as a response to the Holocaust that it's basically a natural psychological tendency to "go with the flow")

Yes, I can see the legal possibilities that the family may just be abusing the justice system, but I just wanted to give them a fair chance.

I'm having a bit of trouble articulating my argument, as you can see, but if you read Orson Scott Card's "Speaker for the Dead" you'll probably see what I mean about cultural context. There's a quote: "Because you believe in sin, and I know you. And by knowing you, I also believe in sin." (something like that) In other words, it's all relative. Try to look through the other's eyes to see how they think.

And about the "physical pain" thing... well what do you expect? They're probably crying and when you're crying you look awful, thus causing great physical (appearance) pains. ;)

Anyway, the dumbest thing to do online is to start a debate, as I stupidly did, as nobody as far as I know has ever been persuaded in an argument. But,I just wanted to give my two cents.

By the way, I'm interested in what the original poster, Maciamo-san, has to say about this...

ninthsaphir
Sep 20, 2003, 12:40
"If you are Catholic and a representative of your church says your father is going to hell, that's perhaps the most devastating thing someone can say to you."

i guess that about sums up my argument.

xeo4d
Jul 29, 2005, 10:23
For me it is hard to believe that something you do in the relatively short existence you have should entitle you to a decision of suffering for all eternity. In response to the article I think the preist is a bit out of line. As a born protestant going to a catholic school, I have been told my beliefs that do not correspond with the catholic church will send me to hell. But oh well I realize that they are just fueling their ego that their religion is superior to all others, they cannot be blamed, because "forgive them, they know not what they do" fits well. People will say things, but if you just take what they say with a grain of salt, you can rise above it and maybe bring them up with you.

Kinsao
Jul 29, 2005, 17:19
Personally, I think the priest needs his *** kicking for being rude, arrogant and insensitive, but that a law suit is taking it too far, because after all, it is emotional 'damage' and it should be possible to deal with it on a private level.

IMHO it was an out of order thing to say regardless whether or not you believe in hell, God, religion, etc. etc. etc..... Basically it amounts to insulting somebody's recently-died relative in front of everyone and no matter what the priest thought about him, he should have kept his mouth shut.

Rich303
Jul 30, 2005, 02:05
I don't believe in heaven or hell, but in a way I hope they do exist.
I want to be in heaven when that London terrorist(who believes there are 80 virgins waiting for him, as his reward) arrives. I can't wait to see his face when he realises he's got it all wrong, and is quickly escorted straight to hell!

Kinsao
Jul 30, 2005, 02:09
I don't believe in heaven or hell, but in a way I hope they do exist.
I want to be in heaven when that London terrorist(who believes there are 80 virgins waiting for him, as his reward) arrives. I can't wait to see his face when he realises he's got it all wrong, and is quickly escorted straight to hell!

Be even better when he realises he got it RIGHT... and then gets escorted to hell....... :lol:

Rich303
Jul 30, 2005, 02:14
Be even better when he realises he got it RIGHT... and then gets escorted to hell....... :lol:

Ha ha,excellent. How gutted would he be!!

They could parade the virgins in front of him one at a time,to show him what he's missing.
Perhaps they could arrange for 80 Anne Widdecombes to be waiting for him in hell! - sorry Anne Widdecombe fans. x

smoke
Jul 31, 2005, 03:37
Church sued for 'hell prediction' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3074245.stm)

:D
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa Ha.

Love it!

Peace.
smoke

Kinsao
Aug 1, 2005, 20:13
Perhaps they could arrange for 80 Anne Widdecombes to be waiting for him in hell!

LMAO! :lol: :D

Mars Man
Sep 2, 2005, 12:17
Kinsao said it...

And I feel tight-lipped when I think about all those 'see you in court' Americans (I'm from there, but not of that group at all). Yeah, the priest should have kept things quiet.

Could there have been some 'back orders pending on 'that 10%' tithing? :okashii:

OH yeah... I voted no.