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Maciamo
Jun 28, 2003, 21:54
Seiichi Ota, a Liberal Democratic Party lawmaker and former cabinet minister, suggested on Thursday that gang rape could be tolerated as it shows the rapists are "virile" and "close to normal."
The remark came during a debate among politicians on Japan's declining child population -- a phenomenon Ota attributed to a lack of courage among Japanese men to go into marriage life.


Then in Kyodo News (http://asia.news.yahoo.com/030627/kyodo/d7rts5ag0.html)


TOKYO - Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) Secretary General Taku Yamasaki reprimanded party colleague Seiichi Ota on Friday for suggesting Thursday that gang rape could be tolerated because it shows the rapists are "virile" and "close to normal."

Ota apologized, Yamasaki told a press conference. "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still virile, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal," Ota, a 57-year-old House of Representatives member, said Thursday during a debate with other politicians in Kagoshima



They should stop reading "ero manga", that f*ck their brains up !

Ruthlin
Aug 5, 2003, 16:13
Frankly, when I heard about this, I was so disgusted I considered dropping my Japanese course next semester and not even thinking about going to Japan-EVER. It's not as though it's news to me that the Japanese F*CK women over, but it is a fact I conviently forget while squealing over Kimura Takuya.
Their attitude towards women is unacceptable. If Japan ever wants to see itself as equals with other great democracies, it needs to do the hard work of educating its population on racism and sexism and their incompatability with a free and democratic society.
While I have decided to NOT abandon my desire to study Japanese, I am still SO thouroughly disgusted with this it makes me want to cry!
Ruth Lindsay

Maciamo
Aug 5, 2003, 18:06
Maybe it is that Japanese women care less about having sex with strangers (you know all the teen prostitutes, called "enjo kosai") and Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing). Even Japanese porno is quite soft (though all cute girls seem to have tried it when you see the huge quantity available everywhere) compared to Western one. No sodomia, very conventional sex and it rarely gives the feeling that the girl isn't enjoying herself (not like in lots of Western ones where it's clear from their face they are doing effort to smile or look sexy and feel exploited).

I know it's not politically correct from me to make such wild and unprovable statements, but 1) i am not American (and thus don't care about P.C.ness) 2) that's just a hypothesis that would be interesting to discuss.

In consideration to the unusually high number of "prostitutes" in East Asia (even those who don't call themselves such or don't work for anybody but themselves, but still get money for sleeping with or accompanying men), there must be something genetically or culturally different in East Asians that allow them to have sex more easily with anybody than Westerners. How interesting...

Given that it were true (I don't know more than you of course...), rape is likely to be considered less seriously in these societies as a consequence. Could it be the explanation to Japanese and East Asian view on sex and sex laws ?

Sekabin
Aug 5, 2003, 18:24
Oh my god Maciamo, you are joking right? Please tell me that you're joking... not that it would make it acceptable to suggest such ridiculous theories.

Have you considered that perhaps the 'unusually high' number of prostitutes in East Asia has something to do with economy and exploitation rather than your perceived 'genetic' (I seriously can't believe you even proposed that) difference.

Of course those politician's views were not the 'general' Japanese view - they were controversial in Japan.

thomas
Aug 5, 2003, 20:56
While East Asian cultures have a different approach to sexuality than Christo-Judean societies, I do not believe that prostitution is viewed differently. That's why I'm also reluctant to think of genetical differences.


rape is likely to be considered less seriously in these societies as a consequence.

By men or by women?

Maciamo
Aug 5, 2003, 23:02
Originally posted by Sekabin
[B]Oh my god Maciamo, you are joking right? Please tell me that you're joking... not that it would make it acceptable to suggest such ridiculous theories.

Yes and no. I haven't said I believed anything of what I said, but controversial topics make interesting discussion (mind-boggling ones :p ).


Have you considered that perhaps the 'unusually high' number of prostitutes in East Asia has something to do with economy and exploitation ...

Yes, that would work when you imagine Thailand or something, but what about Japan ? Why do Asian teenage girl so readily propose to sell their body "because it's easier" than work normally ? Some Western girld would rather die than do it. That's a big gap in mentalities, especially that lots of Japanese girls could very well try nagging their parents a bit more to get their brand bags and clothes, but tens of thousands of them sstill prefer "to close their eyes and wait a few minutes" as they say when they are surveyed. Frankly the gap is too big with the West to pretend it doesn't exist.

For the relation to money, Japanese women expect their husband to pay for everything they want while theyb stay at home. That's not very far from having a "danna" (master, husband, but in this case "sponsor who ask sexual favours", as the 3 terms are the same in Japanese), 40 years older that pays the restaurant in exchange of the girl's company (that also exist under the form of "hostess clubs" or the cheaper "snack", which abound in every nook and cranny of Japan), or the same "danna" that pays a bit more for sexual favours.

In my opinion everything is connected in Japanese minds.

I know that in countries like Indonesia or Thailand, a girl would meet a foreign tourist (doesn't matter who chooses whom) and would become an instant girlfriend. She is not exactly a hooker as she doesn't work for anyone and doesn't ask money. She might spend a few days or weeks with the tourist, but she expects that he pays everything for her (hotel, food...) and buys her a few presents. She doesn't ask for cash or a fix sum of money, so that's not prostitution, but a "compensated date", exactly what "enjo kosai" means in Japanese.

I can't help but finding a trend between these cultures. Economic reasons aren't the most important. These women, even married, expect to get some kind of "compensations" from their men. It's apparently deeply rooted in the East Asian culture and could have started in China with the "concubines". They may have existed in Europe (though not on the same scale), but are definitely out nowadays, while it persists inexorably in East Asia.

Maciamo
Aug 5, 2003, 23:26
Originally posted by thomas
While East Asian cultures have a different approach to sexuality than Christo-Judean societies, I do not believe that prostitution is viewed differently. That's why I'm also reluctant to think of genetical differences.

I don't know if it's genetic. It might very well be cultural only. But what cultural traits bind all East Asian countries (even the very Christian and Americanized Philippines) ?




By men or by women?

By the whole society in general.

Isn't it strange that Japanese women fight so little for feminist ideals or try to change the cleavage in gender roles. Most are happy staying at home caring for children and abandoning their career. don't believe that Japanese females are less strong than Western ones compared to their respective males. They could assert themselves, but they don't want to become like men or do men's jobs - like Swedish women nowadays :p Japanese girls want to stay cute, obedient, super-polite and a bit childish, just as Japanese men want them. I've tried to convert my own wife to the concept of gender equality, but she refuses categorically.

Japanese (or East Asian) sensitivity is different of the Western one. Japanese parents sleep with with their children between them, what almost any Westerner would find weird or awkward. Sometimes the mother sleeps with her child(ren) and the father has another room. For most Westerners that look like the parents can't stand each other anymore and are going toward a divorce. But in Japan it's just normal. Anyway, everybody seems to know that a woman with a child stop caring about her husband in Japan (ask any couple you know, you'd be surprised !). For me that is as big a difference as the "compensated date" and other forms of prostitutions that seem normal in Japan. Authorities are trying to fight it because it gives Japan a bad international image, but politicians are the first to use and abuse of this system. If they really wanted to outlaw it, it would have been done long ago. Nobody want it to stop, not even women (note that nobody force them in Japan, it's mostly free-will).

Sekabin
Aug 6, 2003, 06:42
Originally posted by Maciamo
Yes and no. I haven't said I believed anything of what I said, but controversial topics make interesting discussion (mind-boggling ones :p ).


... some might say insensitive discussion, Maciamo.

Evidently you and I are living in quite different worlds. You essentially suggested that there is no feminism in Japan. My partner is Japanese, and a feminist. She, of course knows many feminists in Japan.

As for this gang rape issue, at least one feminist group is requesting an official apology: http://www.jca.apc.org/ajwrc/ (this is the direct link to the page - http://www.jca.apc.org/ajwrc/Oota,Mori.htm).

Another useful link about Japanese feminists is http://www.arsvi.com/0fm/fem.htm

Finally, we should recognise that prostitution and rape are entirely different things. It's fine to produce theories and hypotheses, but we should at least base them on some valid data.

Maciamo
Aug 6, 2003, 11:15
Originally posted by Sekabin
... some might say insensitive discussion, Maciamo.

Evidently you and I are living in quite different worlds. You essentially suggested that there is no feminism in Japan. My partner is Japanese, and a feminist. She, of course knows many feminists in Japan.

Yes, of course, if I looked for them or knew feminist groups, I would easily find tens of thousand of them. But that still insignificant compared to the total population. The feminist ratio in Japan is much, much lower than in (Northern) Europe and Northern America. That's just a fact. If not, why should Japan still be so machist and male-controlled ? Is that because feminists are incapable or making things change in Japan, unlike in Western countries. That's a very degrading and sexist image of Japanese women you hold here... (don't be angry, I am just trying to show you another point of view)



Finally, we should recognise that prostitution and rape are entirely different things.

Of course they are clearly different things. I enlarged the debate to prostitution or sexual approach in Japan and Asi, but at least it's related.


It's fine to produce theories and hypotheses, but we should at least base them on some valid data.

What you misunderstand here is that I am not producing any theories, just hypothesis. If I had serious and valid data (scientif studies, surveys...) to prove it, it would become a theory though. Like in science, once a theory is suppoted by experiment or data, it is valid until someone can prove it wrong.

I don't want to pretend having the truth. My philosophy is that truth is an illusion and is always relative to the person who holds it or a particular context/situation.

But that should not deter us from discussing. It's not insensitive, it's just rational as opposed to emotional. If scientists based their theories on emotional hypothesis, we would still be in the stone age.

Anyway, nature is nature. If Asian are different from Westerners that's fine. I am not here for judging. Morals and values are een more relative than scientific theories. Usually when people criticis me for debating such "touchy" issues as the above, they are judging from a subjective point of view, based on their own particular (Judeo-Christian ?) moral.

You probably think that "compensated date" (from "terekura" to "hostess bar" to "soap land/massage parlour" to real prostitution, that is, in progressive order, from just chatting on the phone, to chatting face to face, to sexual service without sex for the woman, to selling one's body entirely) is bad or immoral, because you judge it with your values and moral. I am trying to understand why a lot of Japanese (though not all) don't. I advanced that it may be due to a difference in sensitivity (=genetic), or values/moral (=culture) or because of a different approach to sex (also culture) or anything else (feel free to propose you ideas and develop them).

For me understanding (even patially, as there is never anything absolute) is more important than judging. I observe, reason, confront ideas and opinions, analyse and produce temporary hypothesis (till something better comes). People who judge hardly ever change their opinion, because they have fixed values and feel threatened when something goes against them.

This said, I hope we can continue the discussion constructively.

Sekabin
Aug 6, 2003, 12:13
Fortunately I don't have much time to reply. I *don't* feel I am able to continue this discussion constructively with you - perhaps someone else will. Principally my difficulty is that you seem to, on the one hand (and when it suits you) take a relativist position, yet on the other hand (also when it suits you) you propose notions of 'science' and 'truth'.

If one wishes to attempt to debate in a totally fragmented relativist way, then I agree, 'morals' are indeed fluid, flexible etc.

If however one wishes to tackle debates about real social issues that have real effects, then real data is needed. As you don't seem able to produce it (you don't appear to have included 'men' in your hypotheses), instead asking us to evoke empty guesswork, I am obviously not the person to help you.

Hopefully someone else will jump in for you. Good luck.

Mandylion
Aug 6, 2003, 15:53
Originally posted by Maciamo
Isn't it strange that Japanese women fight so little for feminist ideals or try to change the cleavage in gender roles. Most are happy staying at home caring for children and abandoning their career. don't believe that Japanese females are less strong than Western ones compared to their respective males. They could assert themselves, but they don't want to become like men or do men's jobs - like Swedish women nowadays :p Japanese girls want to stay cute, obedient, super-polite and a bit childish, just as Japanese men want them. I've tried to convert my own wife to the concept of gender equality, but she refuses categorically.

I doesn't surprise me at all that some women are perfectly happy in the home. If that is where they want to be, fine. If they want to work and have a career, that should be fine too.

The problem comes when society actively, thought quitely, forces women from the workplace and into the home. This is a forgone conclusion in Japan. My fiance didn't want to tell her boss we were getting married because of the impact that would have on her career. Japan lacks availabe daycare, support for working mothers, shows overt discrimination in the workplace, and assumes marriage means you will quit your job. In such an environment it is not a surprise at all that women choose to be in the home. There is nowhere else they can go.

You don't need to force women to work, but you should not place barriers in the way of those who want to, no matter how few they may be. Fact is, Japan does not empower it's women in the professional world.

Which brings us to the topic of society's view of women. Since this is about sex, let's start there. Porn objectifies women anyway you look at it, from any modern culture you care to choose. Doesn't matter how much they "enjoy" it. Combine objectification with the already low levels of sexual equality you have in Japan and you are not left with a lot. Add to it that males are vauled highly (since let's face it, society has deemed them to be the bread winners). The pop culture and everything that surrounds boys, manga, tv, video stores, adults, and now some politicians, only adds to this objectification and subjectation of the Japanese woman. Where are they going to think the proper place for a woman is (in both society and the bedroom)?

I don't think Japanese women are less strong that women from other cultures when the chips are down, but can you blame their quiet, non-confrontational behavior when they are up against so much? Japan already frowns on public disagreements. Politics is not the answer for you will ne`er find a bigger collection of bumps on a log drawing public salary. The Governor of Tokyo is a racist (tangental yes, but it deserves mention), you have politicians defending the rapists their own pop culture spawned, domestic violence laws that are some of the worst in the developed world, and a culture of shame still attached to any vicitm.

Is it surprising then that the only two ways to get an edge as a woman is either as a prostitute or wife (not that the two are related mind)? Is it possible that women have sex more easily with strangers becuause, like males, pop culture has bombarded them with male-oriented ideas of feminine sexuality since they can remember?

I'm sure any Japanese woman would say they have self-respect. I'm sure they feel quite happy in the homes they keep and the children they raise. Good. I truly hope they do. But Japan needs to tell their young women that they don't need to sell their bodies for handbags, and must give them the opportunities to lead full, long careers if they so choose. Japan needs to teach its boys that women are equal to them and not their sex objects or someone to raise the rugrats. Heck, some of the women are even better than they are.

Maybe that is where the trouble lies... in the threat empowered women pose...hmmm

I'm running out of time, and I probably won't be able to get back to this thread for awhile. Just had to have my very lengthy say.

Maciamo
Aug 6, 2003, 16:52
Thanks Mandylion. That was a very interesting post.

My question is how is "Japan" going to teach their women when people who are in power are almost always men. Then, even if the discrimination towards married (=unavailable) women at work stopped, how could women even choose a career and still have babies (what most naturally want) in a societies where there are no free creches (=nursery school for Americans wondering...) or kindergarten to drop their children when they go to work ? That's a big disadvantadge compared to European women (dont know if nurseies and kindergarten are free in the States, Canada or Australia ?).

Sekabin
Aug 6, 2003, 19:52
Originally posted by Maciamo
Yes, of course, if I looked for them or knew feminist groups, I would easily find tens of thousand of them. But that still insignificant compared to the total population. The feminist ratio in Japan is much, much lower than in (Northern) Europe and Northern America. That's just a fact. If not, why should Japan still be so machist and male-controlled ? Is that because feminists are incapable or making things change in Japan, unlike in Western countries. That's a very degrading and sexist image of Japanese women you hold here...

hi, Maciamo, I am Sekabin's partner, I read your post this morning and feel like asking you a few questions. Basically i agree with what my partner already said, thus I don't intend to extend this discussion myself, but there're some points I hope you can clarify.

1. how did you find 'the feminist ratio' in Japan and other countries in (Northern) Europe and Northern America? It is 'a fact' according to you isn't it... I am just curious because I have never heard of those kinds of statistics (and didn't know you could count the number of feminists in a country.)

2. what is 'a very degrading and sexist image of Japanese women you hold here'? I don't really understand what you meant -- is this 'you' a general you? Does this sentence refer to something my partner said before (which I think is unlikely, as he just pointed out the existence of feminism/feminists in Japan), or to what you said just before it, i.e., 'feminists are incapable or making things change in Japan, unlike in Western countries'? Do you suggest that you proposed a 'hypothesis' (or 'a fact' or whatever) that is 'sexist and degrading'?

I don't claim that Japan is a feminist country. I should suggest that other countries in (Northern) Europe and Northern America are also still male-oriented and patriarchal to some extent, but yes we still have a long way to go and there's lots to learn from them. However, it cannot be denied that feminism has been changing Japanese society.


if I looked for them or knew feminist groups, I would easily find tens of thousand of them.

Please do it then, and find out what we have done so far, before being judgemental and say it's insignificant.

Maciamo
Aug 6, 2003, 23:25
Hajimemashite dear Sekabin's partner. What name shall I call you ?



1. how did you find 'the feminist ratio' in Japan and other countries in (Northern) Europe and Northern America? It is 'a fact' according to you isn't it... I am just curious because I have never heard of those kinds of statistics (and didn't know you could count the number of feminists in a country.)

Don't need statistics but common sense and a bit of experience of the world. I've lived in 5 European countries and know some other quite well too. I've never lived in Sweden, but I've met quite a few Swedes and I heard from both men and women that Swedish females want to be the equal of men for everything. Never tell a Swedish woman that she can't do a job because it's a male job. She'll reply "that's not true, we can do it too !".

Have a look at national parliament or company managers in each country. In Sweden, which is surely the most feminist and female-friendly society on earth, about half of the member of parliament are female and they've introduced laws to keep a minimum of 1/3 (I think) of female managers in every company. In a survey I read last year about the share of housework in developped countries, Swedish men were the more active spending more time washing, cleaning or cooking than their female partners (only country where it happens I think). Japan came last with about 95% of house chores done by women among couples.

I can give you more examples. Just have a look at the feminist laws and achievments in developped countries. Japan is backward. Laws on sexual harassment are new and often ignored. Women can be fired or forced to leave their job if they get married or have a baby. Women can't remarry before 6 months after divorcing, but men can the same day. All these things are illegal or unthinkable in most Western societies nowadays. Then Women are paid to serve tea or say 'irasshiamase' in chorus of 5 at a company's reception. They usually have a glass ceiling for promotion in companies (i.e. they can't get very good position in general, except in foreign companies)

Then have a look at what politician say about "gang rape". They would have been lynched in the streets for saying that in some Western countries. Feminism is also related to gender equality, but have you ever heard of "paternity leave" in Japan. It started in Scandinavia again and is now common in most Western countries (even Latin ones). So, if Japanese feminist were really as feminist or as numerous as Western ones, would it be normal that Japanese society doesn't show any similarity with them in this regard ?



2. what is 'a very degrading and sexist image of Japanese women you hold here'? I don't really understand what you meant -- is this 'you' a general you? Does this sentence refer to something my partner said before (which I think is unlikely, as he just pointed out the existence of feminism/feminists in Japan), or to what you said just before it, i.e., 'feminists are incapable or making things change in Japan, unlike in Western countries'?

I know Sekabin said he supported feminism. That's why I was surprised that he (or you) affirm that Japanese feminist are numerous. If they were numerous, it would only mean that they are incapable of making things change. But I didn't say that. I said they were as strong as their Western counterparts (read below, I said that), but it was because there were so few of them. Even if of there were 1 million feminists in Japan, that less than 1% of the population and therefore is insignificant politically to hope for a major change in the society.

If you insist saying that feminists are more numerous than that or that you hope so because anyway I don't have statistics or can't count them, then it only mean that they visibly can't make Japan as feminist as even the less feminist Western country. That would be sad. I hope feminist can change things in Japan one day as well. Frankly, didn't you understand from what I wrote that I was maybe as feminist as you ?



Please do it then, and find out what we have done so far, before being judgemental and say it's insignificant.

Who is being judgemental ? You judged me because you misunderstood what I wrote.

I've explained above why I found that Japanese feminist were not very influencial in Japan because of their little number. With all the conviction you can have, you can't change a country with only 1% of people supporting you. In countries like Sweden, it's a majority (more than 50% both male and female) of people who agree to make these changes, and that's why it works.

Sekabin
Aug 7, 2003, 05:24
Originally posted by Maciamo
Hajimemashite dear Sekabin's partner. What name shall I call you ?

Hello again. You can just call me Sekabin's partner -- don't take it as an anti-feminist attitude, it's just because probably I won't post here any more (I'm too busy at the moment) so I cannot see the point of naming myself for this forum. (Sorry if this sounds anti-social.)

First of all, thank you for trying to answer my questions. Actually, if you had read Sekabin and my posts properly you would have understood that we *didn't* claim that 'feminists are numerous' in Japan -- we just said feminists do exist (he said I know lots of feminists, but that was about my personal acquaintances, not about the 'numerous' feminists nationwide). So your comments like


That's why I was surprised that he (or you) affirm that Japanese feminist are numerous.[/B]

is, I should say, completely out of the blue to me.

But that does not matter. What I wanted to know (and thus asked) was just if you have the statistics about 'the feminist ratio' or not, and if you don't, that's fine. The question was simply out of my curiosity. You didn't really have to give me so many examples about the current situation, as I am already familiar with them (I study feminism and I am a Japanese woman who will work in Japanese society). There are several points that I should disagree, but then again, probably it's all because we have very different points of view. (For example, you said that 'laws on sexual harassment are new and often ignored' -- well, what's wrong with them being new? What is important is that we do have them now. And, well, I would say they are 'sometimes ignored, sometimes work'. For another instance, women *cannot* be fired or forced to leave their job if they get married or have a baby -- it is illigal in japan as well. I do know somebody who took 'paternity leave' in Japan.)

You didn't really answer my second question, i.e., what is 'a very degrading and sexist image of Japanese women you hold here' in your last post? but that does not matter either. I don't think I misunderstood what you wrote, I just didn't understand it (that's why I asked questions). Yes I think you may be a feminist, 'feminist' is a self-declared title I suppose, so if you think you are a feminist then you are a feminist. However, it does not mean that we always share the same view of the world. Feminism (or any '-isms' probably) is not and cannot be monolithic anyway.

As I said before, it is not my intention to join in and extend the discussion here so I should leave. Good luck for your discussion.

jeisan
Aug 7, 2003, 06:56
maciamo: ...That's a big disadvantadge compared to European women (dont know if nurseies and kindergarten are free in the States, Canada or Australia ?).

in the US nursery school/daycare costs money but kindergarten is in the regular public school system so taxes take care of that.


maciamo: ...they've introduced laws to keep a minimum of 1/3 (I think) of female managers in every company.

i personally think this law and others like it are a crock. not because im gender biased or think that women/minorities should be managers or whatever, but for the simple fact that it is reverse discrimination. also it disallows the company/school to have the best possible person for what they need because they would be over quota.

"sorry, mr. smith, id love to give you this job, you're the most qualified person, you've had plenty of experience, but you have a penis so we'll have to deny your application"

laws like that shouldn't have to exist in the first place. while they may help out their repective causes in the begining they will only end up hurting in the long run. i also think they be repealled after a nation's people have gotten used to the idea and realize that all people, despite whatever phyical differences they have, are in fact capable of the same things.

Maciamo
Aug 7, 2003, 12:21
Originally posted by Sekabin
Actually, if you had read Sekabin and my posts properly you would have understood that we *didn't* claim that 'feminists are numerous' in Japan -- we just said feminists do exist (he said I know lots of feminists, but that was about my personal acquaintances, not about the 'numerous' feminists nationwide).

Sekabin said
Evidently you and I are living in quite different worlds. You essentially suggested that there is no feminism in Japan. My partner is Japanese, and a feminist. She, of course knows [b]many feminists in Japan.

"Many" and "numerous" are synonym. Same meaning. You are right he didn't say "numerous", but he said you knew "many" of them. If you, a single individual already know "many" of them, so I can expect that as you don't know even 0,1% of all Japanese, There should be a lot of them. (FYI : many = numerous = a lot)



But that does not matter. What I wanted to know (and thus asked) was just if you have the statistics about 'the feminist ratio' or not, and if you don't, that's fine.

Well isn't it you who is the Japanese feminist ? If you work for a feminist organisation, I was hoping you could give me the stats, so that we wouldn't be arguing about the relativeness of "many" or "numerous".


For example, you said that 'laws on sexual harassment are new and often ignored' -- well, what's wrong with them being new?

It's not wrong now, it's just late and is a mere instance of how long it takes to change things in Japan compared to the average Western country. Japanese don't like change in politics or economic policies (and many things else). That's also a characteristic of the national culture. I don't judge it, but it certainly has a negative influence on feminism, as women find it harder to change traditions.


For another instance, women *cannot* be fired or forced to leave their job if they get married or have a baby -- it is illigal in japan as well.

It's illegal, but done in practice by most companies. My wife didn't tell her boss we were married because she thought she could lose her job. She said (that's her word against yours here) that in Japan people are kind of forced to leave when they get married, even if it cannot legally be the "official reason" for firing someone (the boss will pretext a restructuration, bad work or anything else).


I do know somebody who took 'paternity leave' in Japan.)

I've asked more than 50 Japanese people (male and female) about this and nobody had ever heard of that. Most of the people I asked weren't children, teenagers or elderly people, they were between 25 and 40, working for big companies in central Tokyo, and 1/3 of them already had children (usually very young, so it was a good time for them to get information of possibilities of "paternity leave", but no one had heard of the concept at all). Does the person you know work for a foreign company in Japan ? Has this person lived abroad before ?



You didn't really answer my second question, i.e., what is 'a very degrading and sexist image of Japanese women you hold here' in your last post?

Yes, I answer that in a long paragraph. Of course I know he doesn't think so, but I was just poiting out a contradiction in what he wrote. That is based on the "many/numerous" problem. I understood that he said there were "many" feminist in Japan (see my explanation above).

I said "The feminist ratio in Japan is much, much lower than in (Northern) Europe and Northern America. That's just a fact. If not, why should Japan still be so machist and male-controlled ? Is that because feminists are incapable or making things change in Japan, unlike in Western countries ?"

explanation of this passage

1) I don't need to give you data on the ratio of feminist, you admitted yourself that, after all, they weren't as numerous as in Western countries.
2) But Sekabin said feminist were indeed "many"(grammatically "many" is strange here, that's why I changed it to numerous, but you couldn't see it had the same meaning) in Japan and Japan is still macho and male-oriented.
3) So if he thinks that feminists are "many", then he implies that they are ineffective and incapable to change things in Japan. This is what I said would be a "sexist and degrading image of Japanese women". Wakatta ? That doesn't mean he thinks like that. It's a conditional, which means if he thinks feminist are numerous, then he must have a sexist and degrading image of Japanese women.

I don't know in Japanese, but in English every word is important. If you miss a "conditional marker", then you misunderstand what I say as a fact. In this case, I just wanted to prove that logically feminists couldn't be numerous because Japanese society is still so much male-oriented, and that's the point of the whole thread since the politician saying publicly that "gang rape is virile and normal".

Why do you think I posted this article ? Do you think I approve of "gang rape" ? Obviously not. I was trying to ffind an explanation to the current situation in Japanese society, in order to find a solution (we can't fight a problem without knowing its cause). unfortunately, you failed to see I was on the same side as you (i.e. feminist) and started criticing me on everything I said. You'd better I don't change team or feminsit are never going to progress in Japan :D (just kidding, I hope you understand my humour, that may be ver un-Japanese...)

Maciamo
Aug 7, 2003, 12:46
Originally posted by jeisan
i personally think this law and others like it are a crock. not because im gender biased or think that women/minorities should be managers or whatever, but for the simple fact that it is reverse discrimination. also it disallows the company/school to have the best possible person for what they need because they would be over quota.

"sorry, mr. smith, id love to give you this job, you're the most qualified person, you've had plenty of experience, but you have a penis so we'll have to deny your application"

laws like that shouldn't have to exist in the first place. while they may help out their repective causes in the begining they will only end up hurting in the long run. i also think they be repealled after a nation's people have gotten used to the idea and realize that all people, despite whatever phyical differences they have, are in fact capable of the same things.

I understand your point. I think there should be some kind of equilibrium between male and female in society. There are 2 possible systems.

1) Gender role separation : men do male job/task, women do female job/task. The traditional system in virtually all societies in the world. The advanatge is that each sex does what suit its brain specialization (if you've read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", or "Why men don't listen and women can't read maps", or that kind of books, you'll understand what I mean).
2) Gender equality : men and women can do any job/task they want. Men can stay at home and care for their children and women can become the bread winner, become politicians, CEO's, etc. This is what feminists are fighting for.

Japan is still very much in 1), while Northern Europe and parts of Northern America are very much in 2).

The problem is that societies wanting to pass from 1 to 2 have to fight the female discrimination usually found at work in 1. That's why such laws are made. But I agree with you, Jeisan, that in the future it will be possible to live without such rules when the country will not suffer from sex discrimination anymore. Once this point is reach, only capacities will determine who get the job.

BUT, as male and female brains are different, there will always be an imbalance, even in personal preferenec. Men have strong spacial skills and will always in average be better at driving cars (taxi, racing...), playing ball sports, or things like engineering, architecture, etc. (just have a look at male-female ratio at universities for these subjects). Women will always be better at languages, psychology, peace making, will always dress better, be more fussy about cleanliness, etc.And there will always be exceptions for both sex.

At present, it's better to keep them. If a company has a female position to fill, they should avertise so and not give false hope to male candidates.

I also think that if more politicians were women the world would be more peaceful.

Ruthlin
Aug 7, 2003, 16:01
Although I always appreciate a good discussion and think some very good points have been made here...I feel the need to point something out: BEING RAPED SUCKS!!!!!!!!! IT IS NEVER OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!! I appreciate the value of relativism, but I FIRMLY believe that there are some things in the world that are absolute, and this is one of them.
I feel the need to point out as well that it wasn't all that long ago that rape was a much more forgivible crime in Western countries too...but that's changed (although there still exists some stigma that rape victims have to deal with). None of us should identify weaknessess in our cultures and explain them away with cultural relativism. I could sit here and explain many things that bother me about my own country (Bush, for example!) and Western Culture in general, but I don't try to explain them away and not DO anything about it.
It's not as thogh Japan is the only place in the world with backwards views of women, but that CAN and IS changing. The tough part about combating sexism or racism is that it requires people to listen to the group they are discriminating against. But it can be done!!!!
Really, racism and sexism are just stupid and wasteful...everyone has something to contribute and racism and sexism limit the contributions people can make that could potentially enrich society and everyones' lives.
FIGHT THE POWER!!

Maciamo
Aug 7, 2003, 17:02
Originally posted by Ruthlin
I feel the need to point something out: BEING RAPED SUCKS!!!!!!!!! IT IS NEVER OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!! I appreciate the value of relativism, but I FIRMLY believe that there are some things in the world that are absolute, and this is one of them.

I don't know. The point of relativism is to know that other people could feel and think differently than ourself. You know some people like suffering, they are called maso (and Japan is known for having lot's of S.M.'s). Have you also considered a man being raped by a woman ? What about an ugly man by a beautiful woman who'd gone crazy ? Back to women now. Isn't a protitute a woman that accepts being raped for money ? There are many kinds of rape, but given it's just a matter of not asking the other person's consent, even if that person would actually have been atracted by the rapist ? There is a HUGE difference between a woman being "raped" by her ex in her own house and without violence, and a woman being raped by a stranger in a back street with violence. That's why reltivism is important. What I mean here is that is also highly depend on a person's sensitivity (to sex). A young virgin and an old prostitute will feel very differently. I was wondering (and only wondering) if Japanese or Asian people (or just women ?) had a lower sensitivity to having sex with strangers either because of cultural factors or genetic ones. I am probably not going to get the answer on this forum, but it's worth questionning if such differences exist, as human are all different (even inside a same family, so once we cross ethnic groups...).



Really, racism and sexism are just stupid and wasteful...everyone has something to contribute and racism and sexism limit the contributions people can make that could potentially enrich society and everyones' lives.
FIGHT THE POWER!!

I also hope Japan can effectively fight these problems.

Satori
Sep 29, 2003, 13:28
I think something needs to be pointed out here. Rape is not about sex. It's about power and control. Ask any prison inmate about that. Rape is done against a person's will, with the objective of taking that person's power and control away from them. Sex is merely one of the means used to rape an individual. For instance, a person can also be "raped" on the witness stand. And rape has nothing to do with consensual sex, whether for money or not. Even a prostitute can charge a customer with rape, should rape occur during their business transaction, as their transaction was about money for sex and not about one person taking another person's power and control away from them. Gang rape is the worst form of rape, for obvious reasons. I think the question is why do males in Japan or any country feel so powerless and out of control that they need to take someone else's power and control in order to feel good about themselves? Just a thought ...

Himura
Sep 30, 2003, 07:14
...we´re living in a strange world with sick politicians making sick laws and opinions...

Maciamo
Sep 30, 2003, 11:28
Thanks for your very enlightening remarks, Satori (no pun intended on your name :p ).

I think there have been cases of husbands been sued for rape on their wives, because they have done it in such a manner as you described with the prostitute, by acting in a position of power in order to make the other feel miserable, inferior and violated. Sex is no even a matter of who does it with whom, it's more about in which circumstances and how they do it. But let us not go to far with this logic, or some men could end up in court for not being good enough in bed and make their girlfriend/wife feel miserable or violated. :sorry: The opposite is also possible... Whenever a partner is waken up in the middle of a deep sleep or forced to have sex during an illness or any period when they really do not feel like it, could be considered as a mild form of rape. The important is to know where to draw the line, otherwise life would become impossible (this is of course true of any kind of violation, offense or crime, as sometimes forgiveness or understanding of human weaknesses gives better results).

Satori
Sep 30, 2003, 12:53
Yes, I remember the cases you are referring to. In fact, I think the first case to be successfully tried in the courts was an Oregon case many years ago. And I agree, it does not matter who does it to whom--rape is rape, period. As far as husbands/boyfriends ending up in court, I believe there are certain criteria which have to be met (as in any lawsuit) in order for a rape case to prevail. I don't consider myself an expert in this area, but I assume it's similar to that of the battered woman syndrome, which are also tough cases to prove in court at times. Society's views towards women has had a lot to do with that. But society's views are changing, albiet slowly, so that more and more people understand these kinds of issues. It's just important to be clear about what rape really is. And it's too bad there seems to be therapy for the victims of rape and yet not much in the way of therapy for the rapists. I would prefer to see "preventive" measures taken, i.e. therapy for the rapists, so that we don't have to live in a society where rape occurs and where it's oftentimes tolerated or condoned. Going back to your original post, I think Ota's comments about gang rape--the worst form--are appalling. If he had been the one who had been gang raped, I wonder if he would still consider his rapists to be "viril" and "close to normal" for having raped him. :-)

Warusaru
Mar 1, 2004, 17:52
[QUOTE=Maciamo]...Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing). Even Japanese porno is quite soft (though all cute girls seem to have tried it when you see the huge quantity available everywhere) compared to Western one. No sodomia, very conventional sex and it rarely gives the feeling that the girl isn't enjoying herself (not like in lots of Western ones where it's clear from their face they are doing effort to smile or look sexy and feel exploited).

Er...right.

One of the most successful Japanese porn starts of all time was a lady called Tani Naomi, who spent her whole career being tied up, whipped, raped and burned - she gained her popularity due to the apparently sweet look in her eyes when all this was going on. It is true that in much of the rape porn that is around in Japan, the victim usually ends up falling in love with the rapist too. But as for it being rare that the girl isn't enjoying herself, I remain unconvinced. Anyone else? :mad:

Zero-sen
Mar 1, 2004, 23:45
[QUOTE=Warusaru][QUOTE=Maciamo]...Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing). [QUOTE]

What a complete crock of S*[email protected]!!! Rape is rape, nuff said. It's a disgusting crime, that in my opinion should hold the death penalty. Those comments met quite alot of flak in Japan and rightly so. It violates both the victims rights and life. A friend of mine was raped on her way home from work three years ago and it's still screwing with her head. We were best friends for years and now she won't even be alone in a room with me, she won't even let her own dad near her. I was horrified when i heard this as was my partner. A head judge in the UK once said a woman deserved to be attacked because she was "Dressed provocatively", what a load of crap. These so called "leaders" and govournment officials should resign. I don't care how liberal a nation's attitudes are to sex NOBODY has the right to rape someone.

Warusaru
Mar 2, 2004, 01:44
I don't care how liberal a nation's attitudes are to sex NOBODY has the right to rape someone.


You're absolutely right, the problem is that in Japan it isn't necessarily seen that way as Japanese law defines rape in a particular way - this means that unless something fits into their (ridiculous) definition, people are likely to get off lightly. It is also true that many cases in Japan are thrown out as it is thought that rape cannot be committed by an acquaintance, although in the UK and US a significant number of rapes are committed by colleagues and even family members.

The whole thing is really disturbing - and it goes without saying that a lot of sex crimes go unreported in Japan and a lot more get thrown out because the victims are worried about what might happen. In some cases the attackers are known to have threatened the girls with telling their families if they reported the crimes.

Today there is a growing number of crisis centres and more facilities for women who have been raped, the problem is that Japan is still way behind some other countries.

Winter
Mar 2, 2004, 01:48
You're absolutely right, the problem is that in Japan it isn't necessarily seen that way as Japanese law defines rape in a particular way - this means that unless something fits into their (ridiculous) definition, people are likely to get off lightly. It is also true that many cases in Japan are thrown out as it is thought that rape cannot be committed by an acquaintance, although in the UK and US a significant number of rapes are committed by colleagues and even family members.

The whole thing is really disturbing - and it goes without saying that a lot of sex crimes go unreported in Japan and a lot more get thrown out because the victims are worried about what might happen. In some cases the attackers are known to have threatened the girls with telling their families if they reported the crimes.

Today there is a growing number of crisis centres and more facilities for women who have been raped, the problem is that Japan is still way behind some other countries.

I think there is the element of women in Japan still not being seen as equals.

Some argue thats its just the culture, but c'mon....lets get real, shall we?

Until women are seen as equal to men, I'd bet you a dollar to donuts that rape will always be a flighty concept in the country. At least until the Emperor's daughter is raped.

Hachiko
Mar 2, 2004, 03:55
Until women are seen as equal to men, I'd bet you a dollar to donuts that rape will always be a flighty concept in the country. At least until the Emperor's daughter is raped.

...with the tabloids following in earnest, to put it darkly with a straight face.

Eternal Wind
Mar 4, 2004, 03:22
[QUOTE=Warusaru][QUOTE=Maciamo]...Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing). [QUOTE]

What a complete crock of S*[email protected]!!! Rape is rape, nuff said. It's a disgusting crime, that in my opinion should hold the death penalty. Those comments met quite alot of flak in Japan and rightly so. It violates both the victims rights and life. A friend of mine was raped on her way home from work three years ago and it's still screwing with her head. We were best friends for years and now she won't even be alone in a room with me, she won't even let her own dad near her. I was horrified when i heard this as was my partner. A head judge in the UK once said a woman deserved to be attacked because she was "Dressed provocatively", what a load of crap. These so called "leaders" and govournment officials should resign. I don't care how liberal a nation's attitudes are to sex NOBODY has the right to rape someone.
I definately agree with u on the whole point,just like in my country,it is really a very shameful act and ppl will look down on the rapist forever

lexico
Mar 14, 2005, 23:38
Seiichi Ota, a Liberal Democratic Party lawmaker and former cabinet minister, suggested on Thursday that gang rape could be tolerated as it shows the rapists are "virile" and "close to normal."
The remark came during a debate among politicians on Japan's declining child population -- a phenomenon Ota attributed to a lack of courage among Japanese men to go into marriage life.
TOKYO - Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) Secretary General Taku Yamasaki reprimanded party colleague Seiichi Ota on Friday for suggesting Thursday that gang rape could be tolerated because it shows the rapists are "virile" and "close to normal."

Ota apologized, Yamasaki told a press conference. "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still virile, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal," Ota, a 57-year-old House of Representatives member, said Thursday during a debate with other politicians in Kagoshima
They should stop reading "ero manga", that f*ck their brains up !This is the weirdest and funniest thread I've seen since I got here. It's strewn with inconsistencies everywhere. Why is it not in the "Humors and Tests" section ?

Let me answer my own question. Because it has to do with insanity. Then why is it not in the "Science & Technology" section ? It's because the original strangeness of this quite bizzare report threw off Maciamo's otherwise balanced judegement. In fact you gave a partial answer yourself, but why did you turn it into a social studies project ???

This deserves some serious attention from the psychological point of view. Are there any people versed in criminology or psychology on this forum ? If there are, was it because you (plural, psychologist, clinicians, practitioners, whatever) didn't want to get into the messy argument ??? Nobody talked about it till now, so I'll have to fill in temporarily.
I think the question is why do males in Japan or any country feel so powerless and out of control that they need to take someone else's power and control in order to feel good about themselves?
It is understood that quite often violence is deeply connected to sexual behavior.
The murderer/sex offender was suffering from a severe case of impotence. He was often ridiculed and scolded for premature ejaculation by his wife, and thereafter became impotent. With the sole purpose of securing sexual arousal, he started looking for school children getting off school because most of them were non-domineering being children. He would lure them to remote places and take their lives, which gave him the illusion of absolute control, at which point he experienced orgasm and simultaneous ejaculation. Already Satori mentioned the issue of control in rape incidents, but the connection to Mr. Seiichi Ota still hasn't been pursued at all. Why socialize an individual's (several individuals') problem?

I would like to offer a hypothesis on Mr. Seiichi Ota, who should be now 59 or soon to become 59. He is suffering from impotence. The reason is unclear, but that would have to be decided in a court directed psychological profiling. Whatever the actual cause, because he was suffering from a certain sexually dysfunctioning problem that incidentally caused the perpetrators to engage in gang rape, Mr. Seiichi Ota said,

"Gang rape could be tolerated as it shows the rapists are 'virile' and 'close to normal.'"
which was said to support his argument,
"Japan's declining child population [is] a phenomenon...[attributed to] a lack of courage among Japanese men to go into marriage life."

On the surface, Mr. Seiichi Ota's intention was to say
1. Japan used to have a decline in population.
2. The decline in population was due to Japanese men being timid about entering a married life.
3. But the gang rapes are sure signs that Japanese men are recovering their manhood, that they have become "virile, and normal again."

The obvious crack in his logic betrays the pathological symptoms that Mr. Seiichi Ota had been experiencing. His logic can only mean one thing. He himself was not virile, and had been constantly bothered by it, fantasizing about participating in gang rape, or possibly had acted out on this fatasy himself. At the discussion of "gang rapists" in the parliament, he immediately sympathized with the rapists because he was suffering from a categorically identical condition they were suffering.

I think it was not simply unfair to Japanese women who became victimzed to socialize the issue and find cause in the Japane/Asian DNA or culture, but unscientific to no measure. First study Mr. Seiichi Ota head, and those of the gang rapists. If that goes to show any positive diagnoses, go further to study other kinds of sex offenders. Blaming the Japanese women, Japanese' DNA's, Japanese culture, or switch Japanese with Asian, are just widefly off the mark as a serious thesis for discussion. Let's discuss science, not some baseless sociological b-s- that's worth little more than tabloid gossip material. How could anyone get so low ??? :okashii:

Mycernius
Mar 14, 2005, 23:59
I must look through old treads properly. I read it and was a little disturbed by various comments. I just wondered how many red dots Maciamo san got for some of his post. As for my point of view, I find rape offensive. It is a form of domination on the opposite sex, and should be punished accordingly, though I find the death sentance a little harsh. As for Japans view on the subject, I am sure that there are many men and women in Japan that find the crime just a disgusting as you or I. There was not much mention on females raping men. This does happen in a lot of countries, it's just not talked about as much as female rape. I wonder if it happens in Japan, and what be the ministers view on that? I think his view on male rape would be a little different from his views on female rape. Double standards spring to mind.

TwistedMac
Mar 15, 2005, 00:42
I'm just gonna pop out for some gang rape. Be right back.

what? .. it's almost normal!

lexico
Mar 15, 2005, 20:56
As for my point of view, I find rape offensive. It is a form of domination on the opposite sex, and should be punished accordingly, though I find the death sentance a little harsh. As for Japans view on the subject, I am sure that there are many men and women in Japan that find the crime just a disgusting as you or I.While I agree with you, what worries me is the fact that value judgment of all sorts are preceding scientific judgments in this case. If impotence or loss of dignity/power/hwat-have-you is such a widespread problem, and is causing certain people to go out and batter, rob, maim, rape, and murder, then it is the nature and cure of the disease that must come first, even before prosecution and condemnation. Of course, regardless of the mental conditions, offenders should be brought to justice.

The abomination of the thesis lies in its inaccuracy of diagnosing Mr. Seiichi Ota's case as a social or biological phenomenon as opposed to psychological. It is a medical case to be studied and treated. What the offenders need is not understanding or justification as DNA or culture, or even the promiscuous tendencies of Japanese/Asian women, or the matter-of-fact directness of certain pornography.

Where is the help from science & medicine ? Where is Freud and Jung to help out ? Come on people, are we still living in the 19th century ?

Maciamo
Mar 15, 2005, 21:27
I am not sure what lexico is pointing at in my several posts in this (old) thread, as my posts were mostly unrelated to the original topic about gang rape. Most of them are about prostitution/enjo kosai and attitude to sex in general across cultures. And I agree with what lexico said about gang rape and Seiichi Ota.

Although (or because ?) I am married to a Japanese, I maintain that East Asian women have a more relaxed approach to sex than many Western ones, especially those from English speaking countries (with many notable exceptions, but it is the average that counts). There is just no Judeo-Christian concept of "wrong" or "shame" associated to sex in East Asian societies (even in ultra-Christian Philippines). It is not necessarily a bad thing. That means men get to have sex more often and more easily. Maybe there is a link between the timidity of many East Asian men and the lack of timidity of East Asian women. In fact, the same thing happen in Norway or Sweden, where men tend to be less insistant than in the South of Europe (eg. Italy and Spain), and as a consequences women are often "easier", compared to Italy and Spain.

Another major difference is the relative insouciance and naivite of the Japanese (and other East Asians, thence the epidemic of AIDS in most of South East Asia) regarding STD's. This is much more annoying and doesn't happen much in Scandinavia (I'd say the US has the highest rate of insouciant people regarding STD's, maybe because teenagers tend to have sex earlier than in Europe).

lexico
Mar 15, 2005, 22:30
I am not sure what lexico is pointing at in my several posts in this (old) thread, as my posts were mostly unrelated to the original topic about gang rape.I don't care how old a thread is. It is meant to go down in history, right? It was you who considered the two topics related as in your second post.
Maybe it is that Japanese women care less about having sex with strangers (you know all the teen prostitutes, called "enjo kosai") and Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing).I'm glad that you are now able to dissociate the two topics. As for the rest of your statement, I find no problem discussing it in another context. Yet I do find it a huge problem discussing it in this context of gang rape and Mr. Seiichi Ota. That's because, as you also are aware, context is everything.

nurizeko
Mar 23, 2005, 19:09
gang rape is wrong, in any culture.


saying that, on the topic of sexuality and equality, japan is japan, and nobody has any right to expect japan to change to fit to your personal view on womens rights, with a japanese g/f i can assure you, their just as fiery spiritted as any western women, its not about equality, its about empathy, and japanese seem to have that, sadly the rampant feminization of the west coupled with our individualistic culture has created women who care for no-one but themselves, or at the least, are less aware of their actions, western men being no less guilty, its not suprising the divorce rates in western countries, especially america and britain, are so horrendous, when everyone is out for themselves, and the warped distorted view feminised women have that equality goes beyond fairness in society, to outright preference in their favour in every aspect.

of course not all women are like this, but in general the west is simply different then east asia, us westerners no longer take family values and empathy with others as seriously as east asian countries, where family is more important then life itself sometimes.

im happy with my japanese g/f because when a question is asked, it isnt "how can i gain from this?" but "how can WE gain from this?"





back on topic, again, gang rape is weak and pathetic, without needing to state the obvious that all rape is weak and pathetic.

Maciamo
Mar 23, 2005, 22:16
gang rape is wrong, in any culture.

Wrong, but virile, and that's a respectable elderly politician who says it, so you should listen and do what he says. :sorry:


its not about equality, its about empathy, and japanese seem to have that, sadly the rampant feminization of the west coupled with our individualistic culture has created women who care for no-one but themselves

That's a good point. Would you say that too much empathy can lead to a greater acceptance of rape ? (oh the poor old man hasn't shagged for 6 months, let's be empathic and let him do his stuff :sorry: )


its not suprising the divorce rates in western countries, especially america and britain, are so horrendous

But Irish and Italian people are even more emphatic as the Japanese, as they have a much lower divorce rate.


back on topic, again, gang rape is weak and pathetic, without needing to state the obvious that all rape is weak and pathetic.

So I guess that if weak and pathetic peopel commit it, it becomes normal, which confirms the title. :-)

Sorry about that.

nurizeko
Mar 24, 2005, 17:48
rape is weak and pathetic, it doesnt matter if your japanese, american british or whatever, its effectivly doing someone against someones will, its the same as an un-aggrivated assault, its against the persons will, and effects them.

if a woman doesnt want to have sex, she doesnt want to have sex, its as simple as that and goes beyond cultural barriers, its the same as being assaulted, if i dont want my face punched in, then i have the right, not not expect it, or want it.

i agree to a degree that the east asian mentality on sex means to an extent, that at the least, a woman might decide not to report rape, or try and deny it away with things like "but maybe he was just lonely" and other things.

but still, i cant help but get the impression for the most part, an asian women who's been raped feels as dirty and ashamed and distressed as a western woman.

an asian person wouldnt like to be beaten up anymore then i would, and i guess the same goes for rape, an asian woman is no more inclined to like being raped any more then a western women.

but as for the gang-rape commentry, i do accept that to an extent, its based off of a mans possibly slightly distorted opinion of women, which he has developed from his perspective of his culture's opinion of women.

Maciamo
Mar 24, 2005, 21:56
rape is weak and pathetic, it doesnt matter if your japanese, american british or whatever, its effectivly doing someone against someones will, its the same as an un-aggrivated assault, its against the persons will, and effects them.

I was just teasing you. :p Let's continue.


if a woman doesnt want to have sex, she doesnt want to have sex

Who tells you that the rapist asked if she wanted ? Given the high incidence of rape simulation in Japanese porn, could it be that some women actually fantasised about being raped ? Of course there is no way to know which ones.


but still, i cant help but get the impression for the most part, an asian women who's been raped feels as dirty and ashamed and distressed as a western woman.

Shame comes mostly from pride, and it seems that East Asian women are not as proud (and selfish) and many of those in English-speaking countries.

FireyRei
Apr 8, 2005, 03:26
That politician is in no way the 'average' Japanese man, he represents a minority, period.

sanada_kikyo
Apr 11, 2005, 09:03
I've read the majority of this thread, and I have tried to soak in every person's comments with an open mind...I think everyone is trying to understand something that unless you are Asian is very difficult to comprehend.

1. Asian's are not genetically predisposed to be prositutes...look at the economy, that dictates the prostitution.
2. Japanese people are obsessed with Western Culture...they try to mimic a lot of what happans in the states...so many violent shows that air in US tv, the Japanese incorporate in their lives. Has anyone seen some of the anime that they air - I have it's uncanny.
3. There is a great book called Beyond Culture by Edward T. Hall...read it, it explains a lot of the thought process btw Eastern and Western Cultures...I never thought that there was a difference btw myself and my white friends...but this hit home...Japanese women innately try to please people...we can't help it - it's part of saving face, and serving the family
4. Gang rape is not accepted anywhere...ask any rape women in Japan, they would be horrified that such a thought exists...

Doc
Apr 11, 2005, 10:43
After reading this entire thread I only have one thing to say: It's a damn good thing guns are illegal in Japan and that I live here in the United States because there would be hell to pay otherwise.

Doc:ramen::happy:

Maciamo
Apr 11, 2005, 12:50
That politician is in no way the 'average' Japanese man, he represents a minority, period.

No, he is not an average person, he is a respectable elderly wiseman democratically elected by maybe a million Japanese people. That is what is so worrying about it. If an average Japanese had say the same thing, it wouldn't have made the news. If people don't know who they vote for, it is hardly less worrying that the guy actually supporting gang rape.

Maciamo
Apr 11, 2005, 13:00
I've read the majority of this thread, and I have tried to soak in every person's comments with an open mind...I think everyone is trying to understand something that unless you are Asian is very difficult to comprehend.

If you have read the last few posts of mine, maybe you have difficulty understanding sarcam. I was just playing the devil's advocate.


1. Asian's are not genetically predisposed to be prositutes...look at the economy, that dictates the prostitution.

Do you mean that prostitution exists because there is a demand for it, and some women think it is a good way of making a lot of money quickly ?


2. Japanese people are obsessed with Western Culture...they try to mimic a lot of what happans in the states...so many violent shows that air in US tv, the Japanese incorporate in their lives. Has anyone seen some of the anime that they air - I have it's uncanny.

I don't think a majority of the Japanese are obsessed with Western culture, Many young people are, but most old people aren't. Besides, the US is NOT the same as Western culture. There are over 30 Western countries, but the US is often the exception, especially regarding morals and sexuality. See the thread How comes the US has such a high rate of teen pregnancies and divorces ? (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16003).


Japanese women innately try to please people...we can't help it - it's part of saving face, and serving the family

Yes, I noticed that too. Do you think that Japanese women often do think they don't really want to just to please men or serve the family ?


4. Gang rape is not accepted anywhere...ask any rape women in Japan, they would be horrified that such a thought exists...

Of course, it isn't. My last posts were very sarcastic. Sorry about that. :sorry: Don't worry if you don't understand sacrcasm, many American people don't understand British sarcasm too, even though they speak the same language ! I was answering to nurizeko, who is British, and should understand I was not being serious.

sanada_kikyo
Apr 14, 2005, 13:29
I absolutely understand sarcasm...and I understood that your posts were to a point...yes, I do know that the older generation of Japanese are not following the Western trend (I'm half Japanese), and that it is the younger crowd...at least that is what this thread is geared towards right? Gang rape in the younger female population?

Prostitution - demand? Absolutely there are women in improvished countries that will sell their bodies to feed their families...it's sickning, but they view it as a way to survive...

in regards to whether or not the Japanese women wants to serve...again it's not a conscience occurance...maybe the older generation had that mentality (my grandmother did), but I know in the younger generation they are more liberal in thinking, yet still end up in that psuedo submissive role when they get married...it's my opinion folks...I still think that we are programmed that way...can't help it...

Chiaki_Kuriyama_Fan
Apr 14, 2005, 21:20
gang rape sounds sick, and is held in disregard where i come from....

isayhello
Apr 15, 2005, 01:56
Who tells you that the rapist asked if she wanted ? Given the high incidence of rape simulation in Japanese porn, could it be that some women actually fantasised about being raped ? Of course there is no way to know which ones.


First of all: Rape is sickening. The politician who made that comment about gang rape obviously has a problem. *angry*

There are indeed people who think of rape as a fetish, and enjoy rape simulations. Both men and women. But understand that the women thinking about gang rape as something sexually arousing would probably NOT think that way about being raped for real. There's a big difference between a rape simulation, as it is a rape under 'controlled conditions' in a way, and an actual rape. Women who are 'into' rape might not want to be raped for real...

Besides, those rape simulation porn videos are mostly directed to men...?

A.A. Lee
Apr 15, 2005, 06:07
I think what Ota meant, albeit without any tact, is that at least a rapist made the effort to have sex and did it. And a lot of Japanese men simply are not. Condom sales have dropped dramatically over the years and not just because of the pill. I've even read about an ad urging young people to not be adverse to sex. A lot of men aren't having sex with their wives. The number of children per household is decreasing. Women are putting off marriage. This all ties in with the record low birth rate problem that so many politicians and sociologists are alarmed at.

My impression is that a lot of women are putting off marriage because they want to keep their jobs and make their own money. They don't want to be housewives and deal with poor relationships with a husband, even if they could freeload off of one. They want their own lives and not have to sacrifice for the husband and kids. Also Japanese men just don't pursue women as vehemently as many men in the west (or China even). My friend visiting Japan remarked that while she always got a hoot and a holler occassionally here in the states when she visited Japan, no one voiced their admiration for her good looks. Of course that's not a tactful way to approach a woman anyway, but in general I hear that Japanese men don't like to bother with wooing a Japanese princess after a hard day's work (he's got lots of porn alleviate his suffering). Well something's got to change or else Japan will be in even dire straits.

I'd also like to add that rape shouldn't ever be encouraged even if the government does desperately want people to have more sex and more chances to procreate. Rape is a show of force and dominance that make sick people feel better about themselves. It blights the life of the victim. Women who conceive because of rape usually get abortions anyway, any sane, prochoice one, so I don't know why Ota even mentioned it.

Maciamo
Apr 15, 2005, 11:10
Besides, those rape simulation porn videos are mostly directed to men...?

Like all porn, but also made by women. Who would do such videos if they did not agree (even unconsciously) that it could incite some men to fantasised about rape, and that even themselves could possibly be raped for real by one of the people who watched the video then met them in the street ? They are weird and dangerous people everywhere. Women who do porn movies with rape simulation are either not afraid of being raped for real, or very irresponsible.

A.A. Lee
Apr 15, 2005, 23:19
I maintain that East Asian women have a more relaxed approach to sex than many Western ones, especially those from English speaking countries (with many notable exceptions, but it is the average that counts). There is just no Judeo-Christian concept of "wrong" or "shame" associated to sex in East Asian societies (even in ultra-Christian Philippines). It is not necessarily a bad thing. That means men get to have sex more often and more easily.

Americans used to have a more relaxed approach to sex (in practice anyway, we've always been puritans at heart) and prostitution was more prevalent, but along came HIV. Too many people who have it are all to willing to pass it on, murdering scumbags! But Americans still have sex more often (times per year) than the Japanese, according to condom surveys anyway. That makes sense to me because if many Japanese men have to pay for it, then that limits the number of times they can do it.

Chiaki_Kuriyama_Fan
Apr 20, 2005, 00:40
gang rape....what the hell....as i said before rape is evil....

lolife
Apr 22, 2005, 03:42
Here, where I live, I think it's pretty clearl how the general population regard rapists, given that rapists and pedophiles is put in prisons of their own, just to avoid being beaten to death. If it were up to me, I'd put them right in there, to be harassed and beaten - to be on the other side of the deal instead. Fscking wack-jobs.

:okashii:

As to why there is such a difference, I don't know. But I have the same notion. Maybe the concentration of people is a part of it. Maybe it has some to do with society hierarchy, which leaves some people with desires to be in control once in a while. It might also have to do with the older generation, that still have much of those older values left, but diminshes pretty fast for every generation (eg. coupled with the somewhat "wilder" younger generation today).

But a very generic notion I have of asian countries, is that the desire for power and wealth (or rather, to display it) seems greater, as well as the desire to humiliate and dishonor each other. Enough with the shoe-licking already, mm'kay?

:mad: :wave:

Take this as notions of an outsider. I've never been to Japan or any other asian country, to experience it first-hand. That notion builds mostly upon media, and products such as movies and anime. Oh, by the way, Scandinavia have had strong women since the medieval times. Might be the climate, I dunno.

:-)

And other than that, I regard equality as obvious, and should be taken for granted. But feminism sucks, or at least today, and here. The ideas and opinions and view of us men of most of the "public" feminists here is just plain ridiculous, and goes faaar beyond equility. Quotas by law I also regard as bad. Never should a person be employed by sex or ethnic background (or by quotas, for that matter) - the best man or woman for the job, it's so very easy.

inuken
Feb 12, 2008, 15:18
i've been unfortunate to come across a jap webbie that featured rapes... and zomg i'm totally and throughly disgusted. Teachers raping their own student. If rape wasn't enough, they tortured her as well. She definitely did not 'enjoy' it.

I bet those teachers were never caught... they would taken the webbie down. Just shows how much the government is trying to stop all these. Anyway, even at yahoo.co.jp, its just as easy to find porn (as quoted by a male friend)

I guess that Japan, still being a male-dominated society, voices of the female won't be heard, or rarely. Even my own language teacher who is a japanese said that! I don't know if its the stress or some sexual cravings that cause the men to do it, but something should be done about it. One can only imagine what happened to the victim of the rape.
But as a normal, unheard citizen, we can only complain from the sidelines. sad-ed.


There was a saying that jap people only act polite, but they actually arent. I think i get what it means now. :okashii:

Dogen Z
Feb 12, 2008, 20:30
Watching a lot of porn again, huh? I thought it wasn't allowed in Singapore. Anyway, that woman in the video made some money so don't worry too much about it. :)