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Maciamo
Jul 11, 2006, 15:20
There have been dozens of stories of Japanese soldiers found more or less recently in the jungle of the Philippines or some small Pacific island who thought that the war hadn't ended and continued to "fight" for the emperor. Just imagine yourself living completely cut from civilisation for 60 years, without having access to tap water, without soap, without any consumer good, wearing the samew clothes everyday... This alone is absolutely amazing. Most of these Japanese were in their late teens or early twenties in 1945. So they spent about 3/4 of their life after that living like Cro-magnon men, without the social life...

What kind of education can instill people such will and stubbornness to live in so dreadful conditions for such a long time ? It makes it easier to comprehend how similarly young Japanese gave their lives without hesitation while fighting the Americans at the end of the war, be them kamikaze pilots or soldiers that would fight to death or even commit suicide rather than surrender.

Imagine the shock it must have been for someone who has lived for 60 years in the jungle, hunting or fishing everyday to survive, being told that those 60 years were useless, wasted in the name of the emperor, and most of all, that Japan had prospered like never before since the end of the war and had ever since been one of the USA's closest ally. Imagine the shock it must be for someone who hardly knew black & white TV to come back home and see colour TV on mobile phones, computers with realistic 3D animation, a totally different lifestyle and fashion, knowing that we have been on the moon or that during all these years spent in the jungle the average Japanese lived with an refrigerator, air conditioning or washing machine at home.

But what amazes me most is how these Japanese soldiers managed to live past their 80's (i.e. above the highest life expectancy in the world for men) with a probably quite unbalanced and poor nutritition, tropical diseases, poisonous animals (on which one must stumble at leats a few times in 60 years in the jungle !), no comfort, no social contact, no medicine and no hygiene. This defies all we were told about how to live a long life. In fact, if even a dozen were found in their eighties, how many weren't found yet or died after years or decades in the jungle ? My guess is that there must have been thousands, most of whom probably died from diseases and malnutrition in the first decade after 1945, then gradually with time. So many wasted lives, but what perseverance !

nice gaijin
Jul 11, 2006, 15:41
On the other hand, one might say that they displayed amazing courage and loyalty, and survived despite all odds (those that did survive, that is). I suppose that whether such a life was a waste or not is really a matter of opinion. I'd really like to hear what they had to say about their experiences, and what they think of spending all those years fighting a war of survival, on their own.

They started fighting generations before I was born, and were raised in a country whose modern culture I'm not so pretentious as to claim to understand completely. I wouldn't care to try to weigh the value of their life just because they believed so much in their country that they refused to believe they had lost the war. Then again, I'd rather not label anyone's life in terms of success and failures. I certainly wouldn't choose the same path if I found myself in their position, but if I had the same upbringing, who knows.

Dutch Baka
Jul 11, 2006, 15:41
Interesting! Could you maybe give us some sources to this kind of stories, because I have never heard about this. so some links would be great.

nice gaijin
Jul 11, 2006, 15:55
There have been stories like this ever since the war ended. There were a few really famous examples, but I can't remember them specifically off the top of my head. A quick google search brought up these links:

Hiroo Onoda
http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/soldiersurr.htm
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=253

Ishinosuke Uwano:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4916294.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2140026,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18845695-2703,00.html

These and other hold-outs:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000310.html
http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/

Maciamo
Jul 11, 2006, 16:05
Here are a few BBC stories on the subject :

BBC News : 'Japan soldiers' found in jungle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4585287.stm)

BBC News : Diplomats seek 'Japan soldiers' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4589115.stm)

BBC News : Japan slows hunt for 'soldiers' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4592995.stm)

BBC News : Japanese WWII soldier found alive (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4916294.stm)

Dutch Baka
Jul 11, 2006, 16:09
Wow, I just read about Hiroo Onoda, living in the Jungle for 29 years!!! I have let this go down in my toughts right now.

I am going to read the other ones too, later on.

Thanks nice gaijin san!!!

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 16:26
It is with much embarrassment that I have returned alive," he said upon his return to Japan, carrying his rusted rifle at his side. The remark would later become a popular saying

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoichi_Yokoi

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 16:49
a taiwanese(高砂族), japanese name nakamura.
he fought as a japanese.
He was found in the jungle in Indonesia 1974.
however japan could not help because nationality was changed.
Kmt ruled taiwan at that time
so he disappointed and his wife was already...

昭和49年(1974)12/26、インドネシアのモロタイ島のジ ャングルで中村輝夫を名乗る日本兵が発見される。中村 は台湾の高砂族で昭和18年11月に陸軍特別志願制度に応 募して一等兵となり、昭和19年7/12にモロタイ島に上 陸していた。しかし昭和20年3/5の戦闘で行方不明と なっていた。中村の本名はアスン・パラリン。昭和49年 時には55歳で った。中村は多くの日本兵らと昭和30年 まで一緒に農作業などをして暮らしていたが、「こんな に大勢、一緒にいたのではアメリカ軍に見つかる」と1 人、ジャングルへと消えたのが最後だったという。中村 以外は全員、昭和30年に救出された。中村は終戦を知ら ず、楽しい時も悲しい時も「歩兵の本領」などを歌って 自らを励ましていた。昭和50年1/8(1975)、中国名で は李光輝という名前を貰っていた中村は台北に帰国、妻 と31年ぶりの再会を果たした。中村の妻は再婚していた が、中村の無事を知った再婚相手がこの日のために離婚 をしていたので る。中村は1/9に故郷に凱旋、日本 名、部族の本当の名前、中国名と3つの名前を持つ中村 以降、日本兵の出現は絶えてないままとなっている。実 際にはフィリピンのミンダナオ島はじめ、現地の山奥で 農民となってしまった日本兵は相当数いたとされるが、 当人が恥じて公に名乗るのを嫌がるなどして実態はつま びらかではない。

http://www.geocities.jp/showahistory/history6/49b.html

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 18:02
However, many of them did not came back to japan by thire intention
like that
http://www.nipponkaigi-tokyo.com/merdeka/home.html
Sukarno wrote the date with japanese 皇紀 in the declaration of independence.(1500~2000 former japanese soldiers fought for merdeka )
they were still heros in Indonesia
17085 means japanese 皇紀 2605 aug 17th
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%9A%87%E7%B4%80.
2)vietnam

1946年6月、ベトナム中部のクァンガイ市にグエン・ソ 唐校長とする陸軍中学(北部のチャン・クォック・ト Aン武備学校と並ぶベトナム初の士官学校)が設立され ス。
教官(四名)のうち中原光信少尉(ミン・ゴック)と谷 本喜久男少尉(ドン・フン)は井川少佐の直属部下、加 茂徳治中尉(ファン・フエ)と猪狩和正中尉(ファン・ ライ)は第二師団(南部駐屯)の元中隊指揮官で、
副教官(四名)と医務官(一名)も元日本軍下士官だっ た。
 生徒約四百人の大半が後年ベトナム人民軍の上・中級 幹部となり、対米戦争(ベトナム戦争)で作戦参謀や連 隊長級の野戦指揮官として米軍を苦しめたことは、
彼ら日本人の指導がいかに優れていたかを示唆している 。
彼らの教え子の一人は外交官としてパリ和平交渉に従事、
また一人は七五年四月のサイゴン攻略戦で全戦車部隊を 指揮し、
旧南ベトナム大統領官邸を含む都心一帯の無血占領を果 たした
1000 former japanese soldiers remained in vietnam and fought...
:( :(

Mike Cash
Jul 11, 2006, 20:37
At least some of the soldiers have reported they knew the war was over. Some were ashamed to go back home after not having been victorious. Some thought there wouldn't be much of a Japan to go back to.

There were quite a few who voluntarily remained in Southeast Asia and who later helped in the military training of guerilla groups.

The idea of soldiers remaining isolated for decades not even knowing that the war was over is more myth than fact.

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 21:08
主にこれら対日協力軍の元幹部から構成された。また英 軍に武装解除された駐留日本軍は母国へ送還されたが、 約2,000人の元日本軍人が祖国に帰らず、残留してイン hネシア独立軍に参加した。その結果、約1,000人が戦死 している
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89%E3%83%8D%E3%82%B7%E3%8 2%A2%E7%8B%AC%E7%AB%8B%E6%88%A6%E4%BA%89
600~1000 japanese remained in vietnam
http://photo.jijisama.org/indonesia.html

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 21:23
帰らなかった日本兵( japanese soldiers who did not come back)
http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~amaprize/rekidai_1994etc.html

Hiroyuki Nagashima
Jul 11, 2006, 21:37
At least some of the soldiers have reported they knew the war was over. Some were ashamed to go back home after not having been victorious. Some thought there wouldn't be much of a Japan to go back to.

There were quite a few who voluntarily remained in Southeast Asia and who later helped in the military training of guerilla groups.

The idea of soldiers remaining isolated for decades not even knowing that the war was over is more myth than fact.

"I knew the defeat of Japan. "
Shoichi Yokoi and Mr. Onoda Hiroo are making remarks.
I watched an interview of Onoda by NHK broadcast of last year.
http://www.office-ju.com/index/tv/tv_onoda.htm

Dutch Baka
Jul 11, 2006, 21:47
I found this on Mr. Onoda Hiroo, could someone tell me what he is talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=los6y_8TcOg&search=Onoda%20Hiroo

Mike Cash
Jul 11, 2006, 21:55
I'm wondering how Japanese soldiers would have been familiar with black & white television, since broadcasts didn't begin until 1953. Five years later, still fewer than 16% of Japanese homes had television sets.

I'm also curious who all these soldiers who were missing until last year are.

Maciamo
Jul 11, 2006, 22:25
I'm wondering how Japanese soldiers would have been familiar with black & white television, since broadcasts didn't begin until 1953. Five years later, still fewer than 16% of Japanese homes had television sets.


:clueless: If you are referring to my original post, I said that they "hardly knew black & white TV". TV was invented in the late 19th century, and the first TV broadcast was in England in 1936, so I suspect that Japanese people would have at least heard of it or know the concept, even if not actually owned one.

caster51
Jul 11, 2006, 22:39
1926年の12月25日、ブラウン管に「イ」の文字をくっき りとうつしだすことに成功。日本の技術力を世界に示し たんだ。

ブラウン管にうつった「イ」の文字と高柳健次郎
高柳博士はその後も、NHKや電機メーカーの技術者たちといっしょに、つぎつぎと新しい技術を生 み出していった。
そして1937年には、当時の世界最高水準(すいじゅん) のテレビ開発に成功したんだ。


http://www.tohoku-epco.co.jp/new_naze/nazenavi/dotten7/02/page4.html

Mike Cash
Jul 12, 2006, 03:33
:clueless: If you are referring to my original post, I said that they "hardly knew black & white TV". TV was invented in the late 19th century, and the first TV broadcast was in England in 1936, so I suspect that Japanese people would have at least heard of it or know the concept, even if not actually owned one.

Nice dodge.

Who are all the soldiers who were missing until last year?

GodEmperorLeto
Jul 12, 2006, 14:09
I imagine there really aren't any Japanese troops hiding out in the Pacific still "fighting" the war. There are myths in the U.S. that there are isolated towns in the southern states that still think the Civil War is going on 140 years later. Of course this is MOST LIKELY a myth, but you never know...

Maciamo
Jul 12, 2006, 16:09
Who are all the soldiers who were missing until last year?

Not sure I understand your question. Do you mean "who are the soldiers that were found in the jungle last year ?" If they are not liers or pretenders, they are part of the tens of thousands of troops left over in the Philippines, small pacific islands, etc. at the end of the war. According to the book "Gold Warriors" (discussed in this thread (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11819), a whole army of general Yamashita was ordered to stay in the Philippines to hide and protect the gold plundered around South-East Asia that they had not managed to ship back to Japan because of the US naval blockade between Japan and the Philippines.

Maciamo
Jul 12, 2006, 16:15
I imagine there really aren't any Japanese troops hiding out in the Pacific still "fighting" the war. There are myths in the U.S. that there are isolated towns in the southern states that still think the Civil War is going on 140 years later. Of course this is MOST LIKELY a myth, but you never know...

The difference is that the Civil War ended 140 years ago, and WWII only 60 years ago. Nobody could have survived for 140 years, and children and grandchildren do not have the actual experience of the war. What's more, the Civil War was within the US, while the Japanese soldiers left over were thousands of kilometers from Japan, in a country where they didn't understand the language, mostly in the jungle, cut off from society, and sometimes on otherwise uninhabited islands (the Pacific has many of them). Add to this that some soldiers were ordered to stay to protect the war loot and fight the Americans and anybody else until the Japanese Imperial family comes to recover the gold well after the end of the war. It is a good motivation enough to 'keep fighting' for decades after the end of the wat...

Mike Cash
Jul 12, 2006, 18:37
Not sure I understand your question. Do you mean "who are the soldiers that were found in the jungle last year ?"

I finally decided to just go google it myself.

http://tinyurl.com/qbezk

They knew the war was over, had reportedly married into the local community, and don't really fit your depiction of living as "Cro-Magnon" men without any social ties whatsoever.

Were there some other discoveries last year?

pipokun
Jul 12, 2006, 20:15
...
Were there some other discoveries last year?
none.
In the Philippines, news about the ex-Japanese solders becomes a sort of business now, so I heard the J embassy there deals with the information carefully.

And the x-filed "yamashita fund"...

GodEmperorLeto
Jul 12, 2006, 21:56
The difference is that the Civil War ended 140 years ago, and WWII only 60 years ago...
Everything you said is true, but I honestly figure that the guys they found a year or so ago are probably the last that are out there. The last soldier found before that was in the 1970s, I think. These guys have to be at least 80 years old now.

Then again, living in the jungle for 60 years has to make you tough as nails. I imagine an 80-year-old war vet who is still "in action" is not going to be the same as an 80-year-old war vet who is in a retirement home.

Mike Cash
Jul 13, 2006, 03:37
Everything you said is true, but I honestly figure that the guys they found a year or so ago are probably the last that are out there. The last soldier found before that was in the 1970s, I think.

That can't be right. Maciamo said there were "dozens" of stories of people in the jungle for 60 years.



Then again, living in the jungle for 60 years has to make you tough as nails. I imagine an 80-year-old war vet who is still "in action" is not going to be the same as an 80-year-old war vet who is in a retirement home.

Can we get off that myth already? The guys were married into the local community and knew quite well the war was over. Just because they chose to not come home and instead remain in a very remote area doesn't mean they lived like Tarzan swinging tree-to-tree with their rusty bayonets in their teeth, doing daily patrols for American units to attack for 60 years.

GodEmperorLeto
Jul 13, 2006, 13:14
That can't be right. Maciamo said there were "dozens" of stories of people in the jungle for 60 years.
Can we get off that myth already? The guys were married into the local community and knew quite well the war was over.
I am dead serious when I say they found a guy in the late 60s/early 70s who thought the war was still on. He committed suicide after a few years back home. He had thought that all the radio stuff was a trick by the Americans to fool him. I saw the whole story on a Discovery Channel program.

Mike Cash
Jul 13, 2006, 19:17
I am dead serious when I say they found a guy in the late 60s/early 70s who thought the war was still on. He committed suicide after a few years back home. He had thought that all the radio stuff was a trick by the Americans to fool him. I saw the whole story on a Discovery Channel program.

I have no trouble believing that. However, that is a period of 20-25 years, not 60. Big difference.

caster51
Jul 15, 2006, 14:02
600~1000 japanese remained in vietnam
http://photo.jijisama.org/indonesia.html
in Vietnam

戦後、フランスが再び進駐してくると、それに対するベ トナム国民の抵抗戦争(第一次インドシナ戦争)が始ま ったが、この戦争には
日本軍兵士が多数参加した。当時、ベトナムには766人 フ日本兵がとどまっており、1954年のジュネーブ協定成立までに47人が戦病死した。なかには、陸軍士 官学校を創設して、約200人のベトミン士官を養成した メもおり、1986年には8人の元日本兵がベトナム政府から 表彰を受けた。なお、ジュネーブ協定によって150人が日本へ帰国したが、その他はベ gナムに留まり続けた模様で る。
766 japanese former soldiers remained in Vietam after 1945.
until 1954 , 47soldiers was lost....
some of them founded the Military Academy in Vietnam.
1986, eight japanese former soldiers were awarded by Vietnam-G.
after that about 150 ppl came back to Japan
so more than 500 ppl remaid in Vietnam ?
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%99%E3%83%88%E3%83%8A%E3%83%A0

Mike Cash
Jul 15, 2006, 18:52
Where did the OP go?

Silverpoint
Jul 18, 2006, 08:21
:clueless: TV was invented in the late 19th century

A number of principles which later led to the development of television, were discovered late in the 19th century, but television most certainly wasn't invented then. Pretty much every textbook on earth lists the Scotsman, John Logie Baird, as the official inventor of television in 1925 (although he didn't demonstrate it publically until 1926).

Maciamo
Jul 18, 2006, 15:40
A number of principles which later led to the development of television, were discovered late in the 19th century, but television most certainly wasn't invented then. Pretty much every textbook on earth lists the Scotsman, John Logie Baird, as the official inventor of television in 1925 (although he didn't demonstrate it publically until 1926).

Your discussion is offtopic, but just check the history of television (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television) to see that I am right.


The German student Paul Nipkow proposed and patented the first electromechanical television system in 1884.

Mike Cash
Jul 18, 2006, 17:41
Right, but irrelevant to the point you were trying to make.

caster51
Jul 18, 2006, 20:17
Where did the OP go?
what is op? means other ppl?
they were considered as deserters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvoC0R7WV_8&search=anti%E3%80%80japan
they thought they could not make them independent bacause of defeat.
Being possible to guess from this video is that they did not intend the
invasion.
who knows?

Mike Cash
Jul 18, 2006, 20:20
"OP" is a standard forum shorthand for "Original Poster" (the person who started the thread, in other words).

Silverpoint
Jul 19, 2006, 08:28
Your discussion is offtopic, but just check the history of television (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television) to see that I am right.
And if you read the link you supplied correctly, you'll see that in fact you are wrong. Television was proposed as a concept in the 19th century, but the technology didn't exist until the early 1900s to actually build what we would consider to be a complete working television. In most people's view, 'inventing' something involves creating the technology to actually achieve it.

Otherwise, you could argue that H.G. Wells 'invented' the time machine, simply because he proposed it as an idea in a fictional novel. The fact that he couldn't (and we still can't) actually build one would be irrelevant.