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Feb 24, 2006, 12:32
The Xinhua News Agency reveals teenagers are to be banned from Internet cafés in China as part of a Government-led initiative to prevent young people from being exposed to "immoral and harmful content."

The ban also extends to karaoke bars and discos as the Government attempts to crack down on "audio and video products and electronic games" which "harm national security and incite hatred toward other nationalities," as reported by the Xinhua News Agency. The ban will go into effect on March 1st.


see more here (http://news.gamedp.com/data/g/a/2006/02/17/146192356.html)

Kinsao
Feb 24, 2006, 20:31
That's a nightmare. :souka:
I'm lost for words.
Of course, I'm not so naive as not to know this happens... but to see it in black and white... :shiver: :(

godppgo
Feb 24, 2006, 20:37
So accessing internet at home will not expose teens from immoral and harmful content? I don't see the logic in that.....

MrsAmberface
Feb 24, 2006, 23:28
that makes almost no sense at all aside from the fact that it just sounds like the ""house moms of america"" <--lol--> except for in china i belive i'd be lost with out internet. It may be bad but there is a lot of good like sites such as this where you meet and interact with people and then learn some that makes me sad:(

Kinsao
Feb 24, 2006, 23:36
godppgo: That's a good point :) But also, it's like influence of the state, it has influence on feelings of the public... it's like they are putting the message across that 'internet is a bad thing for children'... and this kind of message percolates... even though they would still be allowed to use internet in their home (depending on the parents). And also that sort of thing paves the way for much more extreme censorship... :( (as indicated by the second part of the post)

Mrsamberface: Yeah, like everything else there is good and bad things, just like books or TV or movies, somethings ok for children and some not, that's life.

Mamoru-kun
Feb 24, 2006, 23:39
That's a nightmare. :souka:
I'm lost for words.
Of course, I'm not so naive as not to know this happens... but to see it in black and white... :shiver: :(
That's a nightmare for them if you consider that they are somehow closing another door to the rest of the world, as japan did some centuries ago. But here we are speaking about billion of people! They are not closing a door, they are setting the frontier deeper! If they continue that way, we will soon have two "Earths" down here, in wich each part will "horrible" for the other one...:(

ArmandV
Feb 25, 2006, 01:52
This is no surprise. China's a communist country. People tend to forget this.

Sukotto
Feb 25, 2006, 02:32
Sad,
but let's not stop paying attention to "over here" (wherever
your 'over here' may be). In the US they do it more sublte
and via corporations.


It seems corporations want to pave two seperate paths
for the internet, one in which those who can pay get a fastlane
and the slow lane for the rest of us. Plus they want to charge
for almost everything we do on the internet.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060213/chester

Center for Digital Democracy
http://www.democraticmedia.org/issues/netneutrality.html


and,
I seem to recall reading some time ago about a neo-con
proposal for government to control the internet in the case of
some sort of 'national security' situation. After about 10 minutes
of internet searching, I could not find this however...



---added---
what's this 'domain name' stuff I just started to read about?
sorry if I'm highjacking the thread.
I'll go search elsewhere on the forum. :bluush:

I agree with many above.
the net is a great way to meet people you might not ordinarily
be able to meet, and before societal prejedices might set it.

nurizeko
Feb 25, 2006, 18:45
"harm national security and incite hatred toward other nationalities"
Oops, too late. :okashii:

Brooker
Feb 26, 2006, 05:59
That's too bad. I hope the people of China can enjoy all of the freedoms others enjoy.

Ma Cherie
Feb 26, 2006, 06:04
This is no surprise. China's a communist country. People tend to forget this.


That's what's wrong, in theory China shouldn't be defined as a communist country. Not after it has adopted the market system. In theory this makes no sense.

gs001
Feb 26, 2006, 10:02
As I know this stipulation was implemented several years ago,
and it has nothing to do with political suppression.
teenagers are often addicted to internet and play truant,
so they were only allowed to go to internet bar at holiday.
if they choose to access internet at home, their tutor can
easily supervise them.
And from this thread I know how China be demonized:-)
China now has 110 millions of netizen(almost the same as
Japanese total population) and 64% of them use Broad Band,
no one can "control" this huge people and digital flow.
I'm not a communist lover, I just want you understand China
objectively.

ArmandV
Feb 26, 2006, 13:38
That's what's wrong, in theory China shouldn't be defined as a communist country. Not after it has adopted the market system. In theory this makes no sense.

"In theory." But it is still not the reality. The government is still communist.

"No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it is still a pig."

Silverbackman
Feb 26, 2006, 13:56
As I know this stipulation was implemented several years ago,
and it has nothing to do with political suppression.
teenagers are often addicted to internet and play truant,
so they were only allowed to go to internet bar at holiday.
if they choose to access internet at home, their tutor can
easily supervise them.
And from this thread I know how China be demonized:-)
China now has 110 millions of netizen(almost the same as
Japanese total population) and 64% of them use Broad Band,
no one can "control" this huge of people and digital flow.
I'm not a communist lover, I just want you understand China
objectively.

LOL, gs001 you continue to amaze me wherever you go. Communist or not, there are still victims of this government control. Why can't you guys at least become more like Taiwan?

gs001
Feb 26, 2006, 16:32
Hello Silverbackman, my Indian friend
glad to meet you here!
your Indian always have time to access internet?:-)
I want to know why you(as a Indian)always pretend to be an American?
Do you shame of your nationality?

godppgo
Feb 26, 2006, 18:45
Hello Silverbackman, my Indian friend
glad to meet you here!
your Indian always have time to access internet?:-)
I want to know why you(as a Indian)always pretend to be an American?
Do you shame of your nationality?

Maybe he is American?

gs001
Feb 26, 2006, 20:13
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

gs001
Feb 26, 2006, 20:15
Maybe he is American?
I knew that guy in India forum,
he is an Indian nationalist
BTW, godppgo, is that photo under your name really yours?
you are beautiful:-):-):-)

godppgo
Feb 27, 2006, 04:33
I knew that guy in India forum,
he is an Indian nationalist
BTW, godppgo, is that photo under your name really yours?
you are beautiful:-):-):-)

The girl in my avatar is my gf. A shanghai girl.

Silverbackman
Feb 27, 2006, 05:53
Hello Silverbackman, my Indian friend
glad to meet you here!
your Indian always have time to access internet?:-)
I want to know why you(as a Indian)always pretend to be an American?
Do you shame of your nationality?
Why no, my Chinese friend. I'm just a big fan of Indian culture as I am with Japanese culture. Still a pure red-blood American (if Indian descent).
BTW, I sometimes wonder the same thing about you and China though. It seems you cannot accept the truth that you have little freedom in China ;). :p Which is why you can never convince Taiwan to join your country.

Supervin
Feb 27, 2006, 06:27
It seems [that people in China] cannot accept the truth that [they] have little freedom in China ... Which is why [China] can never convince Taiwan to join [it].
It's because the people in China are:
i) misled by the vast amounts of Government propaganda fed from birth and school education, or
ii) they are aware of the suppression, but have gotten used to it by accepting it as reality and the current situation as the status quo, or
iii) ignorant of the magnitude of freedom in other countries.

China isn't at all convincing Taiwan 'to join' it, rather it's coercing Taiwan to recognize itself as a part of China.

But hey, what do you expect from an authoritarian regime?

bossel
Feb 27, 2006, 12:25
The government is still communist.
Only by name, but not by deed. It's a party dictatorship, but there is hardly a communist feature left beyond that (if that is a particular communist feature at all).

Silverbackman
Feb 27, 2006, 17:38
Only by name, but not by deed. It's a party dictatorship, but there is hardly a communist feature left beyond that (if that is a particular communist feature at all).

That is true but that is what happens to anyone who attempts communism or pure socialism. Mao's version of communism was a bit closer to Marx's view and yet it lead to the starvation of millions. Pol Pot's communism was even closer to Marx's vision, and it lead to one of the biggest crimes against humanity of our time. North Korea, well might as well not venture into there!

There is however two communist countries that isn't generally talked about: Vietnam and Laos. Whatever happened in those two countries? Did they become more capitalistic or did communism actually work there?

nurizeko
Feb 28, 2006, 02:46
As I know this stipulation was implemented several years ago,
and it has nothing to do with political suppression.
teenagers are often addicted to internet and play truant,
so they were only allowed to go to internet bar at holiday.
if they choose to access internet at home, their tutor can
easily supervise them.
And from this thread I know how China be demonized:-)
China now has 110 millions of netizen(almost the same as
Japanese total population) and 64% of them use Broad Band,
no one can "control" this huge people and digital flow.
I'm not a communist lover, I just want you understand China
objectively.

I highly doubt that statistic of chinese users, but if its true, your country is still highly restrictive on internet access.

China certainly isnt as bad as the mao era but, people still go missing, prisons are still harsh, pro-democracy is still crushed, i really do feel its just a general ignorance of how much freedom other countries have.

China can be the richest most powerful country in the world, ide still rather live in my scottish backwater with all my freedoms intact.

Though from stories of asian kids dying after insane gaming marathons, i dont question that it seems more addictive to asian kids then western thing...i think its a consiquence of the culture though, american-asians dont seem as badly effected by it.

Supervin
Feb 28, 2006, 08:17
I highly doubt that statistic of chinese users, but if its true, your country is still highly restrictive on internet access.
There are actually 134 million Net users in China, and counting, FYI.

Internet access is not at all restrictive in China.

It's just that there is this massive firewall implemented on the Internet in China by the Communist Government, and recently, with both Microsoft and Google in China supporting and maintaining this. (I won't even begin to go into the lack of moral scrupples by multinational corporations and their double standards.) Topics and blogs related to democracy, Taiwan, Falun Gong and Tiananmen are screened out.

Ma Cherie
Feb 28, 2006, 10:51
I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of hackers in China. I mean, if those teens want to find out about something there will be a way for them to do it. And how effective is this so-called internet police I've been hearing about?

Supervin
Feb 28, 2006, 11:27
Apparently the 'Internet police' monitors all sorts of sites, from website articles to discussion forums. I would say it has been considerably effective, considering that China has spent a lot on creating and maintaining the massive firewall meaning that they can block a lot of sites at will.

All the police have to do is warn those website owners that they have to delete certain offensive articles else the site will be blocked for those based in China.

In the case of forums, there are police who pose as users who post a load of Government propaganda in order to 'guide' public opinion. Offensive posts are deleted very quickly, e.g those involving corruption and injustice.

However, this is an extreme waste of money and resources; the police are paid to read and manage an insane amount of articles and forums just to monitor political views. Though that being said, the CCP couldn't care less about the cost, however large, in order to maintain their grip on power.

ArmandV
Feb 28, 2006, 12:34
Only by name, but not by deed.

Tell that to the students butchered in Tiananmen Square a few years ago. :rolleyes:

nurizeko
Feb 28, 2006, 17:34
There are actually 134 million Net users in China, and counting, FYI.

Does that count those with their own computer and own internet connection or simply anyone who can waltz into an internet cafe?

Anyway i dont doubt the chinese government keeps a tight grip on the internet, un-checked it would lead to crazy thnigs like independent thought and progressive political philosophy and you know, the sort.

gs001
Mar 1, 2006, 22:11
There are actually 134 million Net users in China, and counting, FYI.

My figure was quoted at China internet network information center(CNNIC)
so it is more accurate.

Tell that to the students butchered in Tiananmen Square a few years ago. :rolleyes:
I myself participated in democratic movement in 1989.6.4
But things have changed, no one interested in political struggle now,
Today's Chinese people only fight for a wealthy life,
such as houses, cars, and travel aboard ......
and communist also changed a lot, if you don't take real action to overthrow communist, you will enjoy all the freedom that democratic
country enjoy(I believe anyone who has been to China will confirm this).
so if you want to convince an ordinary Chinese that he is under
political suppression, he will laugh at you.

=======
nurizeko: you'd better live in your scottish backwater, read
all the negative news about China and pretend that you know China
very much:-).

ArmandV
Mar 1, 2006, 22:48
But things have changed, no one interested in political struggle now

communist also changed a lot, if you don't take real action to overthrow communist, you will enjoy all the freedom that democratic
country enjoy


To be honest, I think it is because the people there are too scared to do anything because they know what'll happen.

Perhaps as the old hardliners die off, things will change for the better. I wish you well.

gs001
Mar 1, 2006, 23:40
To be honest, I think it is because the people there are too scared to do anything because they know what'll happen.
Perhaps as the old hardliners die off, things will change for the better. I wish you well.
you mean Chinese people suffer from political threat everyday?
Your media or your government told you that?
Chinese people now worry about unemployment, high housing price,
high price medical treatment, high tuition fee......
Now we can see your government's propaganda is more powerful than communist propaganda:-) and that propaganda makes you misconstrue other country.
Maybe that is why at all time American consider themself always right:-)

Supervin
Mar 2, 2006, 01:08
I myself participated in democratic movement in 1989.6.4
As far as I'm concerned, the people who took part in June 4th have had a taste of brutal suppression by the CCP through witnessing or falling victim to it. It seems that you aren't in the slightest way affected by it, which makes your claim dubious.


But things have changed, no one interested in political struggle now,
Today's Chinese people only fight for a wealthy life,
such as houses, cars, and travel aboard ......
Tell that do the peasants and villagers who have undergone substantial injustice due to frequent corruption, who then get beaten and dragged away when they come all the way to Beijing to report their case.

Tell that to those who come in conflict with Party officials only to be suppressed either by violence or have their livelihoods taken away.

People are not 'interested', because they are powerless under this authoritarian regime.


and communist also changed a lot, if you don't take real action to overthrow communist, you will enjoy all the freedom that democratic
country enjoy(I believe anyone who has been to China will confirm this).
so if you want to convince an ordinary Chinese that he is under
political suppression, he will laugh at you.
How have the Government changed a lot in any way of managing things? Corruption is still rampant. Justice is still not being served to people who bring claims - those who have money or Party connections get their way. There is still a great lack of human rights, not to mention torture is still being used often.

And when the heck have people ever enjoyed freedoms like democracy? If they have, then they should have elected their Prime Minister.

It seems that you haven't the slightest clue on political matters in China. But hey, how can you possibly know, when you have State-controlled television, State-controlled newspapers and State-controlled propaganda?

ArmandV
Mar 2, 2006, 03:05
As far as I'm concerned, the people who took part in June 4th have had a taste of brutal suppression by the CCP through witnessing or falling victim to it. It seems that you aren't in the slightest way affected by it, which makes your claim dubious.



You're right. He does seem too nonchalant about June 4th to be taken seriously.

godppgo
Mar 2, 2006, 04:03
I was visiting my gf's family in China and we passed some religious people handing out flyer. I decided to take one but my gf quickly pulled me away saying that there are people watching. Back at her family's I went on internet just to find out I can't access several political, news sites I used to go on in Canada. After dinner me and my gf's father started talking about politics. He had to warn me not to tell other's what we discuss and just keep them to ourselves even before we have started discussing anything. While out shopping with my gf, I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street. I am used to seeing maybe one or two cops at most a day in Canada and all those authority presense makes me feel like the country is in war or something.

Also, I had a chance to visit HK while I was in China. The moment I crossed the China-HK border checkpoint I can feel an immediate change in atmosphere. Propoganda billboards are replaced by election billboards. Religious billboards and signs were out there which are virtually non-existence in China. The two regions are only separated by a fence and the difference in political environment is huge.

Ma Cherie
Mar 2, 2006, 05:45
you mean Chinese people suffer from political threat everyday?
Your media or your government told you that?
Chinese people now worry about unemployment, high housing price,
high price medical treatment, high tuition fee......
Now we can see your government's propaganda is more powerful than communist propaganda:-) and that propaganda makes you misconstrue other country.
Maybe that is why at all time American consider themself always right:-)


I think that alot of Americans are still under the impression that China is one of the most Communistic (if that's a word :souka: ) countries on the planet. Many people here don't know that with all the economic changes that are happening in China there are some political changes that taking place that we don't even know about. I for one, don't believe the China is Communist, I mean censoring certian sites and information doesn't make a country Communist. I mean, you hear people say "oh in China those people virtually have not freedom" but I think with all the economic changes taking place, these old ideas of Communism and Maoism are being challenged.

Supervin
Mar 2, 2006, 06:23
Many people here don't know that with all the economic changes that are happening in China there are some political changes that taking place that we don't even know about.
About economic changes, sure, ever since the Open Door Policy was announced under Deng Xiaoping's rule. It's a far cry from what it was like from the start under Mao's regime.

Regarding political changes, it really depends on what aspect and which time period you're referring to. You could say that there has been a number of political changes in the past decade in respect to the administration and various policies when comparing Jiang Zemin's rule and now, Hu Jintao's rule. However, the general way of management politically is still very similar and hasn't changed much.


I for one, don't believe the China is Communist, I mean censoring certian sites and information doesn't make a country Communist. I mean, you hear people say "oh in China those people virtually have not freedom" but I think with all the economic changes taking place, these old ideas of Communism and Maoism are being challenged.
True, China isn't Communist in the sense of the political ideology, where nowadays, according to the economic policies alone, Communism is just a label.

But China's society is still socialist due to Communism and its authoritarian characteristics of it are intact.

Nevertheless, on the face of it, if you ever visit China's prosperous cities like Beijing and Shanghai, it would look nothing like a 'Communist country'. In fact, it would look very metropolitan like Singapore or Tokyo because of the open economic policies. People would have to look very closely or live there for some time to see the stark political differences.

gs001
Mar 2, 2006, 09:16
As far as I'm concerned, the people who took part in June 4th have had a taste of brutal suppression by the CCP through witnessing or falling victim to it. It seems that you aren't in the slightest way affected by it, which makes your claim dubious.

There are 1 million of Beijing citizens participated in that democratic movement, you mean all of them were sent to jail?
I was in west Changan street that night and saw communist tank
rush to Tiananmen square, my brother was in Tiananmen square, but
in the morning they were driven out of the square.

Tell that do the peasants and villagers who have undergone substantial injustice due to frequent corruption, who then get beaten and dragged away when they come all the way to Beijing to report their case.
Tell that to those who come in conflict with Party officials only to be suppressed either by violence or have their livelihoods taken away.
People are not 'interested', because they are powerless under this authoritarian regime.
How have the Government changed a lot in any way of managing things? Corruption is still rampant. Justice is still not being served to people who bring claims - those who have money or Party connections get their way. There is still a great lack of human rights, not to mention torture is still being used often.
And when the heck have people ever enjoyed freedoms like democracy? If they have, then they should have elected their Prime Minister.
It seems that you haven't the slightest clue on political matters in China. But hey, how can you possibly know, when you have State-controlled television, State-controlled newspapers and State-controlled propaganda?
that is economic conflict, not political conflict.
I agree China has a long way to go to become a so called
"harmonious society"
but there is a debate of equity and efficiency in China.
someone think if you want fast growth, you have to sacrifice equity.
someone think equity is the top concern,
I don't know who is right.

Anyway I'm not a communist spokesman, I just show you my view of
that ginat country.
if you just look at it's dark side, it is a hell
if you just look at it's bright side, it is a heaven
Maybe we should balance the two.

gs001
Mar 2, 2006, 09:17
I was visiting my gf's family in China and we passed some religious people handing out flyer. I decided to take one but my gf quickly pulled me away saying that there are people watching. Back at her family's I went on internet just to find out I can't access several political, news sites I used to go on in Canada. After dinner me and my gf's father started talking about politics. He had to warn me not to tell other's what we discuss and just keep them to ourselves even before we have started discussing anything. While out shopping with my gf, I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street. I am used to seeing maybe one or two cops at most a day in Canada and all those authority presense makes me feel like the country is in war or something.
I have been to Shanghai and I
"I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street"
too:-) :-) :-)

Supervin
Mar 2, 2006, 10:56
There are 1 million of Beijing citizens participated in that democratic movement, you mean all of them were sent to jail?
I was in west Changan street that night and saw communist tank
rush to Tiananmen square, my brother was in Tiananmen square, but
in the morning they were driven out of the square.
that is economic conflict, not political conflict.
I never said anything about all of the demonstrators going to jail.

It would seem that you aren't politically concerned about the Government despite that you and your brother were at June 4th, witnessing the bloodshed and killing.


I agree China has a long way to go to become a so called
"harmonious society"
but there is a debate of equity and efficiency in China.
someone think if you want fast growth, you have to sacrifice equity.
someone think equity is the top concern,
I don't know who is right.
I've heard of this debate before and I personally think that it's rather pointless.

First of all, equity and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive; there is no reason why you can have one, but not the other.

In fact, equity accelerates 'efficiency', i.e. growth. This is because equity serves as a crucial foundation for stability and security in society. If people can have their equity and rights, they will be satisfied and have faith in the Government.

On the other hand, without equity, the society is unstable from all the hate from the injustice, lack of faith in the Government and no confidence as to what will happen tomorrow. If this happens, then the society is like a dormant volcano just waiting to erupt one day, causing disaster.

Without equity, 'efficiency' is only temporary and premature. When that volcano erupts, all that 'efficiency' is gone and wasted. In other words, when people cannot stand it any longer, protests, revolutions, civil wars will break out. When that happens, the society and country are in ruins needing to be rebuilt all over again.

But even if the Communist Party understood this concept, they won't grant people equity. Why? Because they lose their grip on their authoritarian power and can no longer be 'king' and do whatever they please anymore.


if you just look at it's dark side, it is a hell
if you just look at it's bright side, it is a heaven
Maybe we should balance the two.
Sure, but you cannot ignore problems. How you view them personally, as 'heaven or hell' or something else, is your business.

godppgo
Mar 2, 2006, 17:29
I have been to Shanghai and I
"I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street"
too:-) :-) :-)

And not counting the ones dressed with plain clothing.

gs001
Mar 2, 2006, 20:47
I never said anything about all of First of all, equity and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive; there is no reason why you can have one, but not the other.
In fact, equity accelerates 'efficiency', i.e. growth. This is because equity serves as a crucial foundation for stability and security in society. If people can have their equity and rights, they will be satisfied and have faith in the Government.
On the other hand, without equity, the society is unstable from all the hate from the injustice, lack of faith in the Government and no confidence as to what will happen tomorrow. If this happens, then the society is like a dormant volcano just waiting to erupt one day, causing disaster.
Without equity, 'efficiency' is only temporary and premature. When that volcano erupts, all that 'efficiency' is gone and wasted. In other words, when people cannot stand it any longer, protests, revolutions, civil wars will break out. When that happens, the society and country are in ruins needing to be rebuilt all over again.
But even if the Communist Party understood this concept, they won't grant people equity. Why? Because they lose their grip on their authoritarian power and can no longer be 'king' and do whatever they please anymore.
Sure, but you cannot ignore problems. How you view them personally, as 'heaven or hell' or something else, is your business.
You are right politically:-)
Suppose, you plan to build a super highway and must go through a
village, villagers refuse to move.
Communist will order police or even army to force them leave.
In democratic society things will be different, demonstration
after demonstration, communication after communication, endless argy-bargy.......
That is why when communist China already owned 35 thousands km
of super highway, rank the second in the world,
and some so called democratic country only owned their highway
in blueprint.
Do you know the Three Gorges dam--the world largest dam,
To build this dam, hundreds of thousands residents had to
leave their home and immigrated to other place.
I believe in so called democratic country this dam will never build.
of course volcano is preparing for erupt if communist keep on doing
like that, I hope communist change their behavour gradually.

And not counting the ones dressed with plain clothing.
You mean when a Chinese citizen goes out to do something, there
must be a secret police follow him? good idea, from now on,
China will no dacoity, no rape, no ripoff, no swindle......
unfortunately, things seem just on the contrary:-).

Supervin
Mar 2, 2006, 23:36
Gs001, all I'm going to say is freedom of speech does not equal to demonstrations and inefficiency.

Right now, without freedom of speech, it's much worse. People are forced to accept things, which would lead to demonstrations. Without freedom of speech, no one can protest against the corruption officials who are the ones wasting everybody's time by being lazy and not doing their job or embezzling money.

Of course, freedom of speech alone is not enough; there need to be solid rules and means of enforcement in the country to support this.

nurizeko
Mar 3, 2006, 22:01
nurizeko: you'd better live in your scottish backwater, read
all the negative news about China and pretend that you know China
very much.

I know more about china then you do, because i live in a country where the media isnt state controlled and i dont dissappear one-day after i make some anti-governmental remarks, where the papers and news are allowed to report the truth or basically give any other observation on the news that isnt government sponsored and get away with it.

I fear the chinese have become so indoctrinated into the idea that they have it as good as it gets is sad, you've been denied democracy and human rights so much you dont even care that people are tortured, made to dissappear, and other various infringements on human rights.

Ide rather live in a free human rights respecting backwater then totalitarian "communist" china.

Dont get me wrong, ive always liked china and the chinese, its the blatant abuse of basic human freedoms that bother me.

If you were at the june 4th democratic protests, then it seems you've long had your soul crushed, long given up on any hope for democracy, if you were really there (though chances are your only claiming so to add empty weight to your point) then i wouldnt be suprised if the gs001 we have now is the result of government "political re-education".

gs001
Mar 4, 2006, 09:20
Gs001, all I'm going to say is freedom of speech does not equal to demonstrations and inefficiency.
Right now, without freedom of speech, it's much worse. People are forced to accept things, which would lead to demonstrations. Without freedom of speech, no one can protest against the corruption officials who are the ones wasting everybody's time by being lazy and not doing their job or embezzling money.
Of course, freedom of speech alone is not enough; there need to be solid rules and means of enforcement in the country to support this.
I agree, but something ironical, in Asia there are few countries
became prosperous though democracy, on the contrary, many economic
body such as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Thailand...their
fast-grow era was (in some degree) autarchic, when they became
democracy, their growth slowed down, maybe that can
tell the relationship between equity and efficiency.
your HK as a former colony just have freedom but no democracy at that
time, and benefit a lot from trade between mainland and outside.
Japan maybe better, but they were occupied by USA, and their
so called "peaceful constitution" was also made by USA.
perhaps China will go the same process. of course gradually not
immediately, or China will be Russianized(if has this word:-))

I know more about china then you do, because i live in a country where
I have heard such kind of comment on China hundred times
have you got something new?
I find that people from so called democratic country,
always use formatted sentence to criticize China
even the words they use were quite similar
maybe that is the result of another kind of propaganda:-):-)
nurizeko, No one want to change you impression of China, just keep it

4321go
Mar 4, 2006, 14:16
If you really concern the problem of China ,find the reason of it
Don't forget the colonialist agressors of 1839-1945 and the international blockage from 1940' to 1990's. Even now,the international blockage is exist!
Compare with India? India is a democratic country, After more than 100 years of colonial rule ,this country is poor and laggard. but still ,there 's no international blockage toward to India~ however ,there are many problem with India~
you may say :as the colony,Hongkong is not poor .Notice:Hongkong is small ~even smaller than my city ~A city is easy to change~

godppgo
Mar 4, 2006, 16:18
If you really concern the problem of China ,find the reason of it
Don't forget the colonialist agressors of 1839-1945 and the international blockage from 1940' to 1990's. Even now,the international blockage is exist!


The biggest problem of China is its people. Most Chinese somehow still have a false sense of China being a culturally advance and a powerful nation. This sense of being a proud Chinese from a proud culture is the very reason that China cannot progress and modernize as fast and efficient as Japan had.

China and Japan were facing the same colonial threat during the 1800s. In fact, China was ahead in interacting with western culture than Japan. Both China and Japan viewed westerners as threat during that time but the subsequent actions the two countries took were completely different. Japan admitted western cultures is a far more superior one and feverishly try to copy anything western in order to avoid colonialist aggressors.

What did China do? Foreign ambassadors were asked to kneel in front of the Chinese emperor because they are regarded as long hair beast. From Chinese point of view, China is the center of the world, westerners are no different than the barbarians from the north, east, and south of China. Even when China was signing treaties to give up land to western powers, they still regarded western powers as inferior cultures. Chinese were just too proud too admit they are in fact a backward group of people.

Even until present day, this gChina-Prideh mentality still exists in most Chinese people. Itfs always otherfs peoplefs fault never Chinafs, Chinese people can never be wrong. Itfs all westernerfs fault that China was still using bamboo sticks and swords fighting against colonialistf gun powder. Itfs all Japanfs fault when Chinese were too busy killing each other in a civil war to defend itself when Japan invaded the Manchu territory. Itfs all the nature disastersf fault when 20million Chinese died during the insane Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Itfs all western propagandafs fault when CCP were busy running over students with tank and executing political activist. I can never understand why is it so hard to admit your countryfs shortcomings.

It's okay to suck. All country and civilization suck during sometimes of their history. It's just happened China has been sucking for the past 200 years. It doesn't mean China will suck forever. It doesn't hurt try to change how you guys view the world. You guys have the potential to be a great nation. At least act like one.

gs001
Mar 4, 2006, 17:07
godppgo's opinion is right.
we Chinese really need to reconsider our past,
give up some negative thought and behavior,
this kind of debate is also hot in Chinese forum
welcome godppgo visit our forum, if you can't read
Chinese, you may ask your gf to help you:-)

nurizeko
Mar 4, 2006, 18:01
Godppgo is spot on and as always can say it much better then i can. :p

4321go
Mar 4, 2006, 21:47
godppgo's opinion is right.
we Chinese really need to reconsider our past, give up some negative thought and behavior,this kind of debate is also hot in Chinese forum
welcome godppgo visit our forum, if you can't read Chinese, you may ask your gf to help you:-)
He surely can ~ he is Taiwanese , and I read some of his post, I was quite annoyed for some of his viewpoint untill I realize he is a Taiwanese. I understand why he think like this ~ In fact what he type is the same as the Taiwan's media .

gs001
Mar 4, 2006, 22:14
Oh, he is a Taiwanese
but I think his analyse about why we lost to Japanese in 19th and 20th
century is right, we should have adopted advanced institution and
given up something out of date more quickly, if we did that, history
would have been quite different.
I hope China not to lose opportunity this time.

godppgo
Mar 5, 2006, 06:00
He surely can ~ he is Taiwanese , and I read some of his post, I was quite annoyed for some of his viewpoint untill I realize he is a Taiwanese. I understand why he think like this ~ In fact what he type is the same as the Taiwan's media .

Yeah sure it's all Taiwanese media's fault again, blame on those evil foreign media.

If you have actually try to understand Taiwan's media environment, you'll find out most Taiwanese meida are pro-China.


gs001,

This is why I don't discuss politics on Chinese forum. The instance I pinch on the Chinese-pride nerve, all the proud Chinese go berserk and lose all rationality. They'll always find something or someone to blame on and portray themselves as the victim.

gs001
Mar 5, 2006, 10:53
This is why I don't discuss politics on Chinese forum. The instance I pinch on the Chinese-pride nerve, all the proud Chinese go berserk and lose all rationality. They'll always find something or someone to blame on and portray themselves as the victim.
I have been to Taiwan forum, I found majority of Taiwanese
(at least netizen) want independence, when Chinese nationalist
meet Taiwanese splittist, a violent debate will begin, both
side "go berserk and lose all rationality"
but I don't believe majority of mainland people are nationalist.
I show you a thread in Chinese most vigorous forum about Taiwan
http://club.cat898.com/newbbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=1&star=3&replyid=9109312&id=1006942&skin=0&page=1

4321go
Mar 5, 2006, 19:50
Oh,gs110,you change this topic to another one~
......
wait no more than 10 years ,Taiwan will return by its own willing~ any argument within this ten years won't make sense~

Give an example :

A son like the rich dad rather than the poor dad~so ,he want to leave the poor dad's family and to be the member of the richer one! but ,the richer one didn't accept him. If the poor dad become rich ,the son will return~
OMG, who give money to him , who is his dad~

There is some bad guys abet the son to separate from the family~
because these bad guys don't want the poor dad 's family become a puissant family~ A divisive family is what the bad guys desire~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Quote:A most recent poll in Dec 2004 shows, given a referendum vote on independence, unification or becoming a state of U.S., 41% of Taiwanese residents support independence, 24% choose unification and a 15% would be in favor of becoming a 51st state of U.S

Index
Mar 6, 2006, 02:06
I'm in China now and am surprised at the number of sites I can't get on. More than I'd expected. Surprised JREF is allowed. Probably would not be if they knew what was being said here....

4321go
Mar 6, 2006, 04:18
I'm in China now and am surprised at the number of sites I can't get on. More than I'd expected. Surprised JREF is allowed. Probably would not be if they knew what was being said here....

Never mind~ It is easy to access the website which you can't ~You only need to change your browser,or even not , use a software called"The Onion Router" then you can use your IE browser to surf the internet without any blockage.

1)New browser download: http://www.freehaven.net/~arrakis/torpark.html

2)"The Onion Router" download : http://chrislau.zovenet.com/data/tor_s.zip
usage of Tor:
1.double click Run.bat/win98.batCthe programm will auto run

2.double click the IE icon in the Sockscap CP

3.change the IE 's Privoxy IP address to F127.0.0.1 portF8118.


In fact I am in China and can access any website .you can Have a try~

Pachipro
Mar 6, 2006, 05:44
Never mind~ It is easy to access the website which you can't ~You only need to change your browser,or even not , use a software called"The Onion Router" then you can use your IE browser to surf the internet without any blockage.
This goes to show that no matter how hard a country trys to stop an individuals access to internet web sites, these days, save for completely denying access to the internet, there will always be a program or some software that will make it possible.

bossel
Mar 6, 2006, 11:11
Never mind~ It is easy to access the website which you can't ~You only need to change your browser,or even not , use a software called"The Onion Router" then you can use your IE browser to surf the internet without any blockage.
Maybe it should be noted that AFAIK Tor is not 100% safe to use (it's anyway still under development): If websites use some special Java software you can be tracked. Therefore if you use TOR disable Java (& Javascript) in your browser 1st.

The original download page for Tor:

http://tor.eff.org/index.html.en

4321go
Mar 6, 2006, 13:24
Thank you ,bossle!
I'll try to disable the Java function~

Index
Mar 6, 2006, 14:43
Thank you 4321go and bossel. I'll check it out. Viva la revolution!!

godppgo
Mar 6, 2006, 17:31
gs001, 4321go

I think we are going off-topic. I opened a new thread to continue our discussion.

http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=318275#post318275

gs001
Mar 7, 2006, 16:54
Anyone know where I took this picture?4387

Mamoru-kun
Mar 7, 2006, 22:15
Mmmm...doesn't seem to be the Grand'Place of Bruxelles ;-)
Haven't you be arrested for that shot? LOL...just kidding ;-)

If you have more like that, I would be very happy to display them on the Net (www.worldfaceviews.com), as I don't have much pictures of your country...well...if you wish ;-)

godppgo
Mar 8, 2006, 03:47
Anyone know where I took this picture?4387

On top of Mao's gigantic portrait

gs001
Mar 8, 2006, 09:52
godppgo
You are right, So you have been to Beijing?
Mamoru-kun
It is Tiananmen square, the point where I shot this picture
was the very point that chairman Mao declared the foundation
of people's republic of China, and also was the venue for his
successor to have some political activities
foreigner know 1989.6.4 incident very well, but you don't know
what Tiananmen square like, right?
I'm a jackaroo and learning to take pictures,
so I can only give you some photos of Beijing taken by others.
http://202.205.80.137/WSTAXPACUKXNTSUOKDOFPZMQXXGPHMYXRJUQUUPV_A/bbsnt?B=212&th=1136462697
(add)http://202.205.80.137/WSTAXPACUKXNTSUOKDOFPZMQXXGPHMYXRJUQUUPV_A/bbsnt?B=212&th=1136462703
(add)
http://202.205.80.137/WSTAXPACUKXNTSUOKDOFPZMQXXGPHMYXRJUQUUPV_A/bbsnt?B=212&th=1136462716
==========
http://bbs.muwen.com/topic381/380579.htm
4388

budd
Mar 8, 2006, 10:27
it's not just a version of portable firefox? how is it different? thanks in advance for the info!!!

bossel
Mar 8, 2006, 12:15
it's not just a version of portable firefox? how is it different?
You mean Tor? You can do pretty much everything online, even download stuff, only that your requests are sent through random proxies & the connection speed is just as random. Just visit the website, there should be an English explanation.



I can only give you some photos of Beijing taken by others.
Beijing? Ugly place, if you ask me.

gs001
Mar 8, 2006, 14:58
Beijing? Ugly place, if you ask me.
Yes, I agree, I live in Beijing for quite a long time,
I don't find it beautiful, But a skillful photographer
can make this tasteless city pretty, that is the very
thing I want to learn:-)

Silverbackman
Mar 8, 2006, 15:16
So gs001 why do you at times apologize for your government? Not just on this forum but in general. The commies made things a lot worse. What do you think about the Nationalist Party of old?

gs001
Mar 8, 2006, 21:50
So gs001 why do you at times apologize for your government? Not just on this forum but in general. The commies made things a lot worse. What do you think about the Nationalist Party of old?
My Indian friend, what style of English are you using?
Indian style or USA style?
why I don't understand?
what you want to say?
Mamoru-kun:
I added two link for you at the reply---#65

godppgo
Mar 9, 2006, 01:51
godppgo
You are right, So you have been to Beijing?


yes I have, I thought it was a very "square" looking city. Everything seems to be in square shape. Especially the buildings.

Silverbackman
Mar 9, 2006, 10:32
My Indian friend, what style of English are you using?
Indian style or USA style?
why I don't understand?
what you want to say?


Heh heh, I knew you would try to avoid the hard truth.:p Because when someone with bad english as bad as your own tries to prove an American that his English is bad, it gets know where.

Yup you have been brainwashed by your government.:souka:

Mamoru-kun
Mar 9, 2006, 17:12
Mamoru-kun:
I added two link for you at the reply---#65
Thanks gs001. Is it shots free of copyrights? In other words, could I put them on my site? And if yes, would you be so kind to provide me names, dates, and localisations of those pictures (I can't read chinese :bluush: )?

gs001
Mar 9, 2006, 21:45
yes I have, I thought it was a very "square" looking city. Everything seems to be in square shape. Especially the buildings.
Yes, our Beijing is an ancient city, it has the history of more than
2000 years, to protect our old pattern, Beijing government don't allow any tall building built in core area of this city, to meet the
limitation of height, real estate dealer make their building "fat"
to get more space, so majority of bulidings in Beijing look podgy.
of course, the home town of your gf--Shanghai has the history of
only 200 years, and nothing need to be protected, so real estate
dealer can build everything they want.

Thanks gs001. Is it shots free of copyrights? In other words, could I put them on my site? And if yes, would you be so kind to provide me names, dates, and localisations of those pictures (I can't read chinese :bluush: )?
If you don't use them commercially, there will be completely
no problem. if you use them commercially, the picture from
202.205.80.137 will no problem, because they were taken by amateur.
picture from bbs.muwen.com obviously taken by professional
photographer, you'd better rule them out.
You mean I take some interpretation on the photos?
OK, tell me your E-Mail address, I will send to you.
(what kind of compress type you accept arj? rar? zip?)

Mamoru-kun
Mar 9, 2006, 21:52
If you don't use them commercially, there will be completely
no problem. if you use them commercially, the picture from
202.205.80.137 will no problem, because they were taken by amateur.
picture from bbs.muwen.com obviously taken by professional
photographer, you'd better rule them out.
You mean I take some interpretation on the photos?
OK, tell me your E-Mail address, I will send to you.
(what kind of compress type you accept arj? rar? zip?)
Permit me to give everything by PM ;-)

Henry G
Apr 21, 2006, 17:49
If you go to the Web cafe in China and look around, you will support this rule. A lot of students are there playing games all day. At home, the situation is, at least, better, their parents could take care of them.

bolyer
Jul 20, 2006, 17:27
While out shopping with my gf, I've never seen so many police and military personnel on stree
When did you come to Chinese mainland? If it is 4~5.2005,maybe there're many police beacue of Anti-Japan procession,but usually there's no so many police.And which city do you come? Beijing's politic atmosphere is much more dense than anyother cities,and also many military person.

Mahoujin Tsukai
Jul 26, 2006, 22:53
There are actually 134 million Net users in China, and counting, FYI.
Internet access is not at all restrictive in China.
It's just that there is this massive firewall implemented on the Internet in China by the Communist Government, and recently, with both Microsoft and Google in China supporting and maintaining this. (I won't even begin to go into the lack of moral scrupples by multinational corporations and their double standards.) Topics and blogs related to democracy, Taiwan, Falun Gong and Tiananmen are screened out.

When I was on vacation in Beijing & Shanghai, I could not access Wikipedia from the hotel room and internet cafes :okashii: . All I got was a 'page not found' error. At that time, I also had a slight fear that someone was going to tap my shoulder and 'ask me some questions' as I surfed the net.:shock: