PDA

View Full Version : Why become Japanese ?



Maciamo
Oct 22, 2005, 00:33
There are various kinds of motivation for a person to change nationality. But the most potent of all is without doubt that someone wants to be recognised as a member of the society of the country in which they have elected to live.

Japanese people are notoriously narrow-minded when it comes to nationality. For the vast majority of them, somebody who does not look Japanese is a "gaijin". In fact, even people of Japanese descent returning to Japan (the Nikkei), are still considered as non-Japanese.

Just take the examples of Brazilian football players that have immigrated to Japan, obtained Japanese nationality and played for the national team, such as Rui Ramos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rui_Ramos) or Alessandro dos Santos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_dos_Santos), and are still considered as "gaijin" by the Japanese. They are famous and most people know they have the Japanese nationality. Santos is even partly of Japanese descent. Yet, they were not born in Japan or pure-blood Japanese parents, raised in Japanese with the Japanese education system, so in a normal Japanese's mind, such a person will always be a "gaijin".

Arudo Debito (http://www.wa-pedia.com/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=938) is another good example of how a non-Japanese looking person taking one Japanese citizenship, will always be treated as a foreigner, and even refused entry to some places reserved to Japanese, even after showing their passport proving that they are Japanese. Paper nationality hardly counts to a Japanese. To be Japanese, you must look Japanese, be born and raised in Japan and speak Japanese like a native.

Just speaking Japanese like a native, or knowing more about Japanese culture and society than most Japanese will not make you any better accepted. I have seen myself, as a permanent resident married to a Japanese, that anyone that doesn't know me will automatically assume that I do not speak Japanese and cannot do any of the cultural stuff thought of as typically Japanese (even when they are not). Some people will say it is normal, as somebody who doesn't know me cannot possibly know how long I have been in Japan and what is my status. But many of those who know still treat me as if I were a freshly arrived tourist, or could never possibly get used to Japanese food, chopsticsk and sleeping on a futon, just because I am a foreigner.

With this kind of mindset, it is hard, very hard indeed, to be accepted as part of the group. The Japanese are exclusive. They typically pre-judge people on their appearance, which blow up all hopes to be ever accepted as "one of them". If even a house-hold name like Santos is still considered as an "outsider" after playing at the Japan-Korea World Cup on the Japanese team, then there is no chance for a less illustrious citizen to ever be accepted by more than a few close acquaintances.

So what is the point of becoming naturalised Japanese ? This should be one of the most disastrous action one could ever take in their citizen's life. As Japan does not accept dual citizenship, it would effectively mean having a paper nationality that most people in the society do not recognise, stay out of the group in the eyes of the group, and be treated as a foreigner in one's birth country (for visas, work, etc.). In other words, such a person would lose all feeling of belonging to a particular society, which could be one of the worst thing a human may have to endure psychologically.

lastmagi
Oct 22, 2005, 00:57
I have no intention of changing my nationality, but I've been curious: how have you, Maciamo, been able to deal with that losing of belongingness and alienation that you've described?

Mike Cash
Oct 22, 2005, 01:24
Believe me, there is nobody left on the planet who doesn't know how long you've been in Japan.

@lastmagi:

As for how he has been dealing with it, just read the last three million words he has written on the matter.

Mandylion
Oct 22, 2005, 01:53
Personally, the only reason I would change would be if having a different colored passport extended legal(voting), financial (loans etc.), or social benefits (by which I mean access to public programs / aid) that I considered worth the trouble having. Knowing I could never be considered "Japanese," the decision is more of a legal question than an emotional issue, but that could be because I view the "traditional" interpretation of nationality and citizenship as outdated and not really relevant to how I approach my surroundings / construct my identity.

Ma Cherie
Oct 22, 2005, 03:52
I guess it's one of those things that no matter what you do, you could never fully belong. :? I wonder from this thread Maciamo, does Japanese society even want foriegners to become nationalized? Or has Japanese failed to recongnize that there people who want to become a member of society? :?

lastmagi
Oct 22, 2005, 09:14
@lastmagi:

As for how he has been dealing with it, just read the last three million words he has written on the matter.

I guess... But I tend to see some of Maciamo's posts as more about describing the situation he lives in more than how he organizes his framework of thought when dealing. That is, how he actively shapes his own actions and how he mentally orients himself (pun not intended) to the society. Stuff that he keeps in mind to himself to keep sane, if he needs to when confronted with a difficult situation. Ah, I know I'm making it more confusing.

I don't keep up with everything he writes, though, much as I'd like, so I'm probably mistaken.

Elizabeth
Oct 22, 2005, 09:42
Anything more multi-faceted and not all in the same direction I'd be happy and very interested in reading.

Ma Cherie
Oct 22, 2005, 10:58
This reminds me of a word I heard that some Japanese tend to say, it's Kokusaika, it means internationlization, but Japan is still a closed society. :? So what does this mean to the Japanese?

misa.j
Oct 22, 2005, 11:35
it's Kokusaika, it means internationlization, but Japan is still a closed society. So what does this mean to the Japanese?
It means westernization on the surface in several aspects such as business, culture, politics, technology, etc.

Japan has a very little experience with immigration compared to other countries even though there are many non-Japanese who were born in Japan. I'm not sure how many naturalized Japanese there are in Japan, but it must not be so many.


I'm also curious why they would want to become a Japanese while there are possibilities that they might have easier life in their home country.

Maciamo
Oct 22, 2005, 11:43
I have no intention of changing my nationality, but I've been curious: how have you, Maciamo, been able to deal with that losing of belongingness and alienation that you've described?

I am a permanent resident in Japan, but I have not taken the Japanese nationality. I wouldn't because of what I have explained above. Permanent residency is, IMHO, better, as it gives the same legal rights (except voting, but I just tell my wife what to vote, as she wouldn't vote at all otherwise), and allows me to retain my nationality (EU nationality is especially useful, as it allows me to live, work and vote in the 25 EU countries). As naturalisation wouldn't make most people recognise me as Japanese anyway, there is little point in having it.

Mandylion, permanent residency gives me the same rights for loans as for Japanese citizens.

Maciamo
Oct 22, 2005, 11:52
I wonder from this thread Maciamo, does Japanese society even want foriegners to become nationalized?

Probably not. But as Japan is supposedly a modern and democratic country, it must allow people to obtain its nationality based on some criteria. Japan would be ostracised by the international community (esp. Western countries) if it refused to grant citizenship to someone married to a Japanese national, speaking Japanese, having a stable job, no criminal record, and having lived in Japan for many years. Other countries could retaliate by not granting nationality to Japanese citizens (that would be a serious problem for hundreds of thousands of emigrants to the US, Brazil, etc.).

But for ordinary Japanese, paper nationality does not mean that one is really Japanese. Japanese people are still reluctant to adopt children from other (poorer) countries, because they do not want a "gaijin" in their family. Nationality, and being raised since infancy in a Japanese family with a Japanese name and legal Japanese relatives, still does make the person Japanese. They lack the genes, and therefore will never be accepted as a true and rightful member of Japanese society.

McTojo
Oct 22, 2005, 11:56
There is no reason to become a Japanese national at all. The very social foundations of this country was architecturally designed to be homogeneous as far back as Yamoto aska jidai. For centuries Japan has striven to find that ideal face; that ideal image of nippon. And yes, influences & culture has come from a variety of cultures such as Spain, China, Korea,....the list is exhaustive. But, as always, Japan takes only the best from every culture and perfects it even more then labels it as Japanese. So, to want to assimilate into this society is like inviting regression because you can't grow here as a non-Japanese.

Now, America on the other hand, was founded on the prinicipal of "bring your tired and weary" and " e pluribus unam--among many we are one" idea.
In Japan, its" Don't bring your tired and weary unless he or she has a higher education and/or some ideas so that they can be fleeced." Read the source at the bottom. I can provide many more but I'm sure this one will be entertaining:

http://www.slackersguild.com/comments.pl?sid=455&cid=971

Finally, I like the idea that Japan is for the Japanese. Though, I love this country immensely I would rather take a back seat to social issues here. I would like to see Japan remain for the Japanese only because its beautiful that way. Arudo Debito actually knows me. We have exchanged e-mails on numerous occassions and I let him know that I don't like what he's been doing. I've been to the onsens where he's been rejected entry. I have never been rejected by any onsen and I've been to over 1500 since living here. I think for the most part is that he speaks in English to the counter lady and not in Japanese of which he is fluent ! He tries to do things his way and not the Japanese way or at least trying to for that matter.

Be a token gaijin ! That's the best way.

Maciamo
Oct 22, 2005, 12:01
Japan has a very little experience with immigration compared to other countries even though there are many non-Japanese who were born in Japan.

I am not sure what the "other countries" are. Do you mean the world's few immgration countries like the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand ? We could also add the UK, France and Germany, but like Japan, they had little experience of big scale immigartion until the 1950's. Many European countries (esp. in Easten and Northern Europe) still have no experience of mass immigration. Middle-Eastern countries, India, etc. have very few foreigners too (whatever they genetic make-up, as no country is really "ethnically pure"). Japan is actually the norm rather than the exception. The USA is the world's biggest exception in term of immigration.

Mike Cash
Oct 22, 2005, 18:40
This reminds me of a word I heard that some Japanese tend to say, it's Kokusaika, it means internationlization, but Japan is still a closed society. :? So what does this mean to the Japanese?

It was a very popular term about 15 years ago. Nobody ever did really figure out just what the hell it meant.

Mikawa Ossan
Oct 22, 2005, 19:49
So what is the point of becoming naturalised Japanese ? This should be one of the most disastrous action one could ever take in their citizen's life. As Japan does not accept dual citizenship, it would effectively mean having a paper nationality that most people in the society do not recognise, stay out of the group in the eyes of the group, and be treated as a foreigner in one's birth country (for visas, work, etc.). In other words, such a person would lose all feeling of belonging to a particular society, which could be one of the worst thing a human may have to endure psychologically.The longer I live in Japan, the more I realize that thanks to the choices I have made and am currently making, becoming naturalized is the only viable choice for me. It has to do with the American government, which I found out recently will not renew passports for people who work as civil servants for foreign countries. I am currently studying to obtain my teacher's license in Japan, and if and when I am hired as a full time regular teacher for the public school system, I will fall under the aforementioned category.

I don't mind giving up my American citizenship per se, because I don't feel like an "American" or that I belong to that society. I have felt like a foreigner in America for quite some time, as for some reason a lot of people there seem to think I'm not American, even though that's where I was born and raised.

In Japan, on the other hand, I actually find it easier to fit in than in my home country. I think it has to do with the fact that in Japan, I am a minority and therefore expected to be different. I merely have to look in the mirror to be reminded that I am indeed different. This is in opposition to America, where I am in the so-called majority, but for some unexplicable reason, I am different.

I think about what it must be like to be a minority in America. I have had a number of minority friends in the US, and I tend to like them better than white people. I don't know why, but I do know that they have now and historically have had problems, even in this "land of immigrants".

I think about slavery, the lynchings, discrimination, poverty, and other things minorities in America have been subjected to over the years, and I compare my situation here in Japan.

The only conclusion I can make is that although being a minority in Japan isn't perfect, there are worse alternatives. Perhaps the US is better today, but who's to say? I need only remember an ex-coworker from my eikaiwa days who got married to a Pakistani. When she visited her old home in Ohio, she got a very cold reception. She told me that on one occasion, someone said to her that Middle-Easterners are not human!

The minor inconveniences we face day to day are insignificant in comparision to what numerous people have had to face in similar circumstances. I get annoyed sometimes, but I rarely complain. This is the life I chose, and it is my obligation to deal with the consequences.

So to me the fact that it is difficult to be accepted in Japan is a non-issue when deciding whether to apply for Japanese citizenship.

epigene
Oct 22, 2005, 20:45
I understand how Mikawa-san feels very well, because I've had friends who said the same thing, although decision to take Japanese citizenship differed by person, depending on background and career. Having a Japanese or American passport does not matter much, in terms of traveling around the world--though you may be seriously inconvenienced if you should decide to retire somewhere in the US... :p

I don't know if I should be posting this in public, but I had an Amerasian friend born as natural American citizen who finally decided to take Japanese citizenship because she no longer has relatives in the US and her entire life and career are in Japan. When her Japanese citizenship was approved, she had to submit a pledge that she will revoke her American citizenship, which she did. But she never revoked her US citizenship and still carries an American passport... :relief:

magoichisaika
Dec 4, 2006, 19:20
I don't understand why a non-Japanese who is fully caucasian would want to become Japanese in the first place. The very thought of this is very weird in my mind. It upsets me very much to see Japanese-Americans officers and soldiers who wear US Solder's uniform occupying and controlling the country of their own ancestors. This is really a shame. I can see Caucaian GI coming over but someone of our own blood, it is very shameful. I feel this is very disrespectful to ancestors. I think it should be made treason to do such a thing. When I see Japanese-American US Marine with a Class A uniform, wearing Globe, and Anchor, it was very disheartening for me.

I am tolerant of Kokokushijos becoming treated as Japanese and Issei born. I am also willing to see Nissei born who are pure Japanese blood or mixed Japanese, if with other asian. But the question of treating full 100% Englishmen a Japanese is out of the question!! Even worse is Englishmen who is not even married to a Japanese woman, but their own Caucasian woman and still wants Japanese citizenship. Very crazy. YOU PEOPLE ARE ONLY GUESTS, VERY RUDE FOR GUEST TO FORCE THEIR STAY AS FAMILY MEMBERS. I also feel it is not necessary for Caucasians to endure learning Kanji when learning Japanese, while expectations for Koreans and Chinese to master it, I have.
When I see white guy in Japan, I expect only hiragana, and I am happy to practice my poor English. But with Kikokushijos, (sorry, I don't know English word for this) while I treat as Japanese, I am harder on them as I feel they have an obligation to learn all the customs and mannerisms of Japanese culture, learn 2000 Kanji, and integrate into society. This can be painful to Kikokushijos. On the other hand, a foreigner, especially a hakujin, I will treat as foreigner, but I will also be more forgiving in applying honne and tatemae. I expect them to learn none of our social customs, and if they only learn hiragana after 8 years, this is okay by me. I will continue to talk in English for you white people.
So while Kikokushijos are eventually accepted as normal Japanese, they have to endure hardship of integration. I give a double standard of expectations. They can reclaim normal status, but they must pay the heaviest of price compared to Gaijin, who have to endure nothing in learning our ways. So for Caucaisan ladies, no point marrying Japanese men okay, unless he wants to become just US or something. For Kikokushijos, it is like going through a metaphorically speaking a social footbinding. They must learn it is haji, or shame in being different, and they must learn Japanese 10 times faster than foreigner, even if they left Japan at 5 years old.
So I think jealous feelings for gaijin is not warranted here. Stay American or English, and remain just tourist.

nurizeko
Dec 4, 2006, 20:25
I don't understand why a non-Japanese who is fully caucasian would want to become Japanese in the first place. The very thought of this is very weird in my mind. It upsets me very much to see Japanese-Americans officers and soldiers who wear US Solder's uniform occupying and controlling the country of their own ancestors. This is really a shame. I can see Caucaian GI coming over but someone of our own blood, it is very shameful. I feel this is very disrespectful to ancestors. I think it should be made treason to do such a thing. When I see Japanese-American US Marine with a Class A uniform, wearing Globe, and Anchor, it was very disheartening for me.

They arent occupying anyone, the bases are leased to the US or something, if you want an occupation, google it, you will be suprised how utterly miserable a real occupation is.

As for the bases being there, well, assuming you can find a fair textbook which doesnt ommit major parts of Japanese history, theres the whole world war 2 thing Japan was involved in.

I'll tell you how it ends: Japan lost.

Live with it.


I am tolerant of Kokokushijos becoming treated as Japanese and Issei born. I am also willing to see Nissei born who are pure Japanese blood or mixed Japanese, if with other asian. But the question of treating full 100% Englishmen a Japanese is out of the question!! Even worse is Englishmen who is not even married to a Japanese woman, but their own Caucasian woman and still wants Japanese citizenship. Very crazy. YOU PEOPLE ARE ONLY GUESTS, VERY RUDE FOR GUEST TO FORCE THEIR STAY AS FAMILY MEMBERS.

If the world still felt the way you do the western powers would this momment still be fighting over the world, and your country really would be a mere colony of the US.

Its not your decision where someone wants to live and make a life, if they get the governments legal blessing, theres **** all you can do about it, and your only making yourself look rude and a bit primitive by getting annoyed by it.

"OH NOEZ TEH FOREIGNORS OFFEND ME JUST BY LIVING HERE!"

Tough luck, get used to it, because with your country's abbismal birth-death rate you'll be seeing alot more of us and you will just have to deal with it.


So while Kikokushijos are eventually accepted as normal Japanese, they have to endure hardship of integration.

The Buraku cant even get treated like Japanese, so whats the excuse there? "we cant accept foreigners because they look different", you cant even accept your own flesh and blood, then you complain about american japanese soldiers (who are actually considored americans in every way) comming to Japan under a foreign flag, yet...that is their flag...they are americans....hmmmm...

What many Japanese suffer here is the same reason white folk used to think blacks were different, its called racism, the western world grew past this (though it lingers in a few) decades ago, were still waiting to see the "noble" Japanese come join us.

Luckily people like you are getting fewer and fewer with every year, with every foreigner that makes friends and family and a life for himself in japan, thats fewer Japanese living in self-imposed ignorance.

If Japanese were so different from everyone else then you would be a seperate species, and foreigners couldnt marry and have a family with a Japanese person.

Sorry but your dinosaur attitude amazes me, I only feel sorry for the Japanese people who were nothing but genuinly polite to me and accepted me as a fellow human being, having to even remotely be related to you.


Gaijin, who have to endure nothing in learning our ways.

Learning a new language, customs, and trying to make a life for yourself in a country arguably less welcoming of foreign immigrants then many other country's, counts as an effort in my books. If we really didnt want to or couldnt adopt "your ways" (read: culture) you would know about it, the western world is more then familiar with people who dont care less about the culture they have moved into.


So I think jealous feelings for gaijin is not warranted here. Stay American or English, and remain just tourist.

I will draw absolute pleasure and satisfaction from this so bear with me as I say this with a un-restrained tone of joy but....

It is absolutely, utterly, entirely, beyond you, not your decision whatsoever in the slightest what we "Gaijin" do in japan, when we do it, and how we do it.

Aslong as we get that magical government thumbs-up and abide by the Laws of the land, we can come and live in your country as and when we feel like it, we can work in your bussiness', we can shop at your super-markets, we can marry a Japanese man or women if we wish, we can raise children in japan, we can send them to your schools, your clubs, make friends with other Japanese children, WE can make Japanese friends, we can come and go in the land as we please as Japanese citizens, and you can do NOTHING about it.

Get used to us "Just tourists" because us "just tourists" will be becomming "Just CITIZENS" in just ever increasing numbers.

Not only is it morrally objectionable in this modern day and age to descriminate based on race, but aslong as Japans ever decreasing workforce needs workers, foreigners will be able to fill much needed roles in Japanese society.

If Japan wants to maintain that nice pretty place in the world economy, it will have to get used to being globalised and home to citizens of foreign origin.


I am so glad your kind are dying out, as slow as it is. :wave:

Mikawa Ossan
Dec 4, 2006, 21:03
YOU PEOPLE ARE ONLY GUESTS, VERY RUDE FOR GUEST TO FORCE THEIR STAY AS FAMILY MEMBERS.
My only response to this is that no one is forcing anything. One can not become a citizen of Japan without the consent and permission of the Japanese government. There is nothing I or any other foreigner can do force our stay here if the government says no.

If you have a problem with caucasians becoming Japanese citizens, take it up with the Ministry of Justice within the Japanese government, as they are the only ones with authority in this matter. Taking it out on naturalized citizens helps no one.

Mycernius
Dec 4, 2006, 21:17
@magoichisaika: Read the below, as it seems to apply to you

Japanese people are notoriously narrow-minded when it comes to nationality. For the vast majority of them, somebody who does not look Japanese is a "gaijin". In fact, even people of Japanese descent returning to Japan (the Nikkei), are still considered as non-Japanese.

Can I be just as patronising when saying that I don't expect you poor little Japanese to master the English language, after all it can be hard for non-English speakers.
As for marrying people of other nationalities, ever heard of something called love?

Mikawa Ossan
Dec 4, 2006, 22:18
@magoichisaika: Read the below, as it seems to apply to you
Can I be just as patronising when saying that I don't expect you poor little Japanese to master the English language, after all it can be hard for non-English speakers.
As for marrying people of other nationalities, ever heard of something called love?
You assume our new friend is actually of Japanese descent. I am not so conviced.

RockLee
Dec 4, 2006, 22:29
You assume our new friend is actually of Japanese descent. I am not so conviced.
His IP shows he's from Canada. He should be the one to talk, while he (if he is Japanese at all) doesn't live in Japan. Some people...

godppgo
Dec 5, 2006, 01:31
You see, many people have this double standard when it comes to issues relating to what he just discussed. They expect gaijin to be just gaijin and they just couldn't bear hearing gaijin speaking their mother languages(or just not used to) at a degrading level. At the same time, they use English at a level which many would consider inadequate.

I also doubt if he is Japanese descent. Although many Asian in general(especially Japanese) think the same way as he does, most will try to avoid confrontation and would rather silence their inner thoughts.

nasdaq100
Dec 5, 2006, 02:52
I also doubt if he is Japanese descent.Although many Asian in general(especially Japanese) think the same way as he does,most will try to avoid confrontation and would rather silence their inner thoughts.





LOL ... why is that,are you him or have you him in person :?


Oh,someone Japanese or J-descent can't possibly be a Japanese because he has dislikes and discomfort toward Wapanese gaijins.:emblaugh:


Nope,only Japanese ( not most other Asians ) are narrow-minded as this poster presented himself from a Japanese perspective.Read some threads on Japan and WW 2,tell us how were Japanese avoid confrontation and silence inner thoughts.:souka:

nurizeko
Dec 5, 2006, 04:47
Wapanese gaijins.

I always assumed the overriding give-away of a "Wapanese" was a near sexual fetish for anime or Japan in general.

Most foreigners living in Japan from my understanding find anime so-so at best, and have plenty of criticism of japan.

Qutiepie
Dec 5, 2006, 06:06
Most foreigners living in Japan from my understanding find anime so-so at best, and have plenty of criticism of japan.





Are those foreigners,Americans or Europeans ? :souka:

magoichisaika
Dec 5, 2006, 17:40
私のお父さんが、カナダに、一年間出張関係の理由で、 家族皆がここに過ごしに来たのです。  私達は、カナ ダに移民する目的はないのですが、この一年間英語を一 生懸命頑張って学ばなければいけないと皆に苛められる ので、私は大変苦労をしているので る。 私の小学校 では、日本とカナダの異文化を相互理解しようとする相 手は非常に少なくて、私は日本に帰国した時に、白人達 に私を皆の仲間にしてくれなかった様に同じ目に合わし たいと思っているので る。
私はカナダに来て、勉強になったことは、自分の国を出 ると誰も自分の国の中見たいには受け入れてくれない事 で るのです。 私は一日も早く日本に帰って、北野中 学校に入学したいのです。

undrentide
Dec 5, 2006, 17:42
Just out of curiosity, what is your native language, magoichisaika-san?

Mikawa Ossan
Dec 5, 2006, 17:46
Magoichisaika, if you truly are who you say you are then take this as a compliment, but you don't write like any elementary school student I've ever known, in English or in Japanese!

magoichisaika
Dec 5, 2006, 19:22
Magoichisaika, if you truly are who you say you are then take this as a compliment, but you don't write like any elementary school student I've ever known, in English or in Japanese!

私が小学校六年生見たいに日本語でも、英語でも書けて ないと述べているのですか。 そうかも知れません。  この理由は私が日本からはなれているので、漢字、単語 、又は、文法の練習を まりカナダでしてないからです 。 私が中学一年生に入学する時になると一年分の国語 の勉強を自分で皆に及ばなければいけないと思います。  それと、私の英語は、カナダ人と比べたら非常に下手 なのは分かっているのです。それでも、日本に戻ったら 高校性と同じぐらい英語ができるようになると思います 。

私は、勉強には まり普通は弱くはないのですが、将来 に東京帝国大学に入学する夢を持っているのです。

貴方によると、私の英語と日本語のレベルは何年生ぐら いですが。 素直に答えてください。

undrentide
Dec 5, 2006, 19:31
私が小学校六年生見たいに日本語でも、英語でも書けて ないと述べているのですか。 そうかも知れません。  この理由は私が日本からはなれているので、漢字、単語 、又は、文法の練習を まりカナダでしてないからです 。 私が中学一年生に入学する時になると一年分の国語 の勉強を自分で皆に及ばなければいけないと思います。  それと、私の英語は、カナダ人と比べたら非常に下手 なのは分かっているのです。それでも、日本に戻ったら 高校性と同じぐらい英語ができるようになると思います 。
私は、勉強には まり普通は弱くはないのですが、将来 に東京帝国大学に入学する夢を持っているのです。
貴方によると、私の英語と日本語のレベルは何年生ぐら いですが。 素直に答えてください。
失礼ですが、 なたの書いていらっしゃる日本語は小学 生のものではなくて、
内容も含めて戦前に生まれたかなりお年を召した方のも のにしか見えません。
それも、よほど長い間日本語を話していないか、もしく は文章を書くことに全く慣れていないかどちらかの。
だいたい小学生は「東京帝国大学」なんて戦前の名前は 知りませんよ。
:okashii:

translation
by magoichisaika
Are you stating that I cannot write like a six grade elementary school pupil neither in Japanese, or in English? The reason is I'm away from Japan, I don't do much practice of kanji, vocabulary, or grammar in Canada. When I'll be entering a junior high school (as a ) first grade student, I'll be in need of reaching my one year lot of Japanese language to others' level. I know my English is very poor compared with the Canadian. Yet I'm sure I'll be able to use English as well as a high school student when I'm back to Japan.
Usually I'm not so weak about study, but I'm dreaming to enter Tokyo Imperial University in the future.
According to you, which grade of elememtary school my English and Japanese belongs to? Please give me frank answer.

by undrentide
Excuse me to say this, but the Japanese language you are using does not sound like something an elementary school child is writing but something written by an elderly person who was born before the war.
And the person either has not spoken Japanese for quite a long time, or is not very much used to writing.
Elementary school children should not know the name of "Tokyo Imperial University" which is the pre-war name (for today's "Tokyo University").

magoichisaika
Dec 5, 2006, 19:38
Just out of curiosity, what is your native language, magoichisaika-san?
日本語です。 私は国語の勉強は嫌いなのです。

undrentide
Dec 5, 2006, 19:48
日本語です。 私は国語の勉強は嫌いなのです。
残念ながらどれも「国語の苦手な小学生」の書く文章で は りませんね。
それにところどころ、とても不自然ですよ。

translation

by magoichisaika
Japanese. I don't like the study of Japnese.

by undrentide
I'm sorry to say that none (of your posts) is what "an elementary school boy who is not good at Japanese" would write.
And your Japanese is sometimes very unnatural (for a native speaker).

nurizeko
Dec 5, 2006, 20:04
Isnt there a Japanese language sub-forum for this kinda stuff?.

I dont mind Japanese in short bursts in posts or with a translation, but writing in just Japanese on the English part of the forum is very childish and rude, Yeah, I'm sorry I cant write or understand written Japanese, but neither can most here, and when we cant understand what someone is writing it can A) Be annoying and B) give the author a chance to write anything and we have no idea what it is.

Cue
Dec 5, 2006, 20:19
それでも、日本に戻ったら高校性と同じぐらい英語がで きるようになると思います。
I don't usually pick on people, honestly, but this is the weirdest kanji conversion I've ever seen in my life.
What is your parents' native language, then?


私は、勉強には まり普通は弱くはないのですが、将来 に東京帝国大学に入学する夢を持っているのです。

Yeah, dream on.
If only there were a university of that name in Japan.

undrentide
Dec 5, 2006, 20:33
Sorry nurizeko. I added translation so that non-Japanese speakers can understand what's going on.

This poster insists he is an 11 years old Japanese boy but his Japanese language is extremely weired.
1. Using difficult words and expressions which a boy of 11 years would never use
2. what he is mentioning (about Japanese-American soldiers, Tokyo Imperial University, etc.) is something a 11 years old would not think of. It sounds as if he knows the Japan before/immediately after the WWII.
3. yet there are many mistakes that even a elementary school pupil who is not good at writing or Japanese would not make

Normally I do not care so much about the poeple who falsify their identity, but he made such a disturbing statement as a Japanese about foreigners in Japan, I would like to know who he really is.
I even beginning to think that he might be a Japanese immigrant himself to North America before the war or in 1940s/1950s.

Mikawa Ossan
Dec 5, 2006, 20:48
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I have no idea who our new friend is, but I am quite convinced that he is not who he says he is.

On the off chance that he is telling the truth, then I truly feel bad for him, as he will obviously have a difficult time readjusting to Japanese society.

But to answer his question, I don't think he writes like an elementary school student of any age, either in Japanese or English. If I had to guess based purely on the content, word usage, etc. that I've seen up to now, I suppose I would guess high school at least, although my first impression was that you are not a native speaker of Japanese, but rather of English, based on your long post in another thread. Of course, I don't know, so I will withold judgement, but you really don't present yourself in a way that fits the identity you want us to accept.

RockLee
Dec 5, 2006, 21:17
Do I smell McTojo? Looks awefully a lot like him.

Mikawa Ossan
Dec 5, 2006, 21:18
If it is McTojo, you have to admit, he's really starting to get creative!

bexchurnside
Dec 5, 2006, 21:33
If it is McTojo, you have to admit, he's really starting to get creative!
Hey, isn't Magoichi Saika a video game character in Samurai Warrior? He helps defend the Ikko Ikki army and Shoukei. Sorry fella, but there is no such man as Magoichi Saika in real life because that is one of the fictious characters. Nobunaga, Ishikawa Goemon, Hattori Hanzo, etc, all did truly exist, but not Magoichi Saika. Please google Magoichi Saika, and you will see yourself!

Why not become someone like Deguchi Onidesaburo the founder of Oomoto Kyo, or Okada Kotama of Sukiyo Mahikari?:okashii:

bexchurnside
Dec 5, 2006, 21:39
私のお父さんが、カナダに、一年間出張関係の理由で、 家族皆がここに過ごしに来たのです。  私達は、カナ ダに移民する目的はないのですが、この一年間英語を一 生懸命頑張って学ばなければいけないと皆に苛められる ので、私は大変苦労をしているので る。 私の小学校 では、日本とカナダの異文化を相互理解しようとする相 手は非常に少なくて、私は日本に帰国した時に、白人達 に私を皆の仲間にしてくれなかった様に同じ目に合わし たいと思っているので る。
私はカナダに来て、勉強になったことは、自分の国を出 ると誰も自分の国の中見たいには受け入れてくれない事 で るのです。 私は一日も早く日本に帰って、北野中 学校に入学したいのです。
Even as an English lady, I could tell that this one came out straight out of Babblefish. It looks very unnatural, even for me. You need not be Japanese to figure this one out. I bet it is written by some old uneducated bloke living in some senior home who has nothing better to do.

undrentide
Dec 5, 2006, 22:00
But don't most of us use handle instead of real name?
:relief:
To me his posts do not look like the result of text translation by babelfish - if it is, then I have to say babelfish did for once a great, remarkable job.
Babelfish is well known for its ability of creating unintelligible garbage.

---
Actually I don't care if he is pretending something he isn't. But I'm very much curious why he has such an opnion - I wonder what kind of experience made him feel like that.

You
Dec 5, 2006, 23:45
To answer the topic question: why become japanese?

There is no reason to be Japanese, unless you are born one.

Mycernius
Dec 6, 2006, 01:39
Do I smell McTojo? Looks awefully a lot like him.
After reading today, that has crossed my mind as well, but Mctojo never posted in Japanese, did he?

doinkies
Dec 6, 2006, 01:56
Perhaps it's one of those trolls who is actually not Japanese but pretends to be? I suppose it could be McTojo or one of his cronies too...

Supervin
Dec 6, 2006, 02:05
内容も含めて戦前に生まれたかなりお年を召した方のも のにしか見えません。
Out of interest, how differently did people write back then?

Qutiepie
Dec 6, 2006, 06:42
I'm also curious why they would want to become a Japanese while there are possibilities that they might have easier life in their home country.





Beats me,I wouldn't give up comfortable spacious single family home with nice lawn garden backyard and central heating/AC in America.

twinklestar
Dec 6, 2006, 08:04
LOL a witch hunt here because this new poster made some valid points hit close to home for those have own ethnicity crisis in home country and seeking identity or social acceptance in Japan LOL


There are nationality fakers roam internet forums LOL,they come and go.

Mikawa Ossan
Dec 6, 2006, 08:18
LOL a witch hunt here because this new poster made some valid points hit close to home for those have own ethnicity crisis in home country and seeking identity or social acceptance in Japan LOL
There are nationality fakers roam internet forums LOL,they come and go.
That's your opinion.

Once there is a reasonable doubt about someone pretending to be someone they are not, the content of their posts becomes invalid, at least it does to me. If said person is pretending about their identity, there's no reason to think they are being honest with the opinions put forth in their posts.

However, if this new poster is indeed who he says he is, I would like to help out. But I must be assured that the effort will not be in vain before I try. I will not waste my time trying to help someone who does not need it.

bexchurnside
Dec 6, 2006, 08:23
To answer the topic question: why become japanese?
There is no reason to be Japanese, unless you are born one.

Hey, I find your comments highly offensive. We English have granted many of you Japanese our citizenship. Even the proud Americans gives them citizenship. I think if you live there for 5 years and have a steady job, and paying taxes, you should be allowed to have it. And for those so called "foreigners" born there, the right to Japanese nationality should exist without question. I see so much of how Japan wants all things western. I wish to say that if I marry my fiance, and if we choose to return to Japan, why should I not be allowed to become Japanese too, if he can and so can our child to come? In any other country, even the USA, would do this much. If the Japanese don't like shame, they should begin by moving on with the times as they seem to love progress and technology so much! My fiance by the way, agrees wholeheartedly to this idea.


To answer the topic question: why become japanese?
There is no reason to be Japanese, unless you are born one.
By the way, I suspect You and Magoichi are either the same person, or very close friends. If you want to screw around, I suggest you do so on Answer 7 on Yahoo or something. This is not the place to do it, and you are only hurting your own reputation.

undrentide
Dec 6, 2006, 08:32
Out of interest, how differently did people write back then?

Not so big difference, but the style could be more formal.

What made me think that he can be an elderly person is only two words.
同じ目に合わしたい cannot tell why, but 合わしたい instead of 合わせたい sounds like... oldman-ish for me.
And 東京帝国大学 is definitely a term used only by the people who knows the university before 1947.

Other part of the message is rather unnatural for a native, but at the same time has something hinting that the poster himself or someone who helped the poster is someone who spoke Japanese long time ago.

Supervin
Dec 6, 2006, 22:35
Not so big difference, but the style...
Ahh, cheers for the info, Undrentide. :)

twinklestar
Dec 7, 2006, 03:00
By the way,I suspect You and Magoichi are either the same person,or very close friends. If you want to screw around, I suggest you do so on Answer 7 on Yahoo or something. This is not the place to do it, and you are only hurting your own reputation.





LOL look oneself in the mirror before dissing out false accusations,your posts flagged someone who's English male otaku NOT English female as you funnily self-proclaimed as such in many postings LOL.

thistle
Dec 7, 2006, 21:51
There are [B]very few reasons for becoming japanese I think, apart
from the obvious conveniences, like buying land, a house, voting etc.
Or if you wanted to be a professional Sumo wrestler:D

Not long after I moved to Okinawa, a friend told me a sad story about a
lady from (let's just say a European country) who was married to a japanese and had kids. She decided to take japanese nationality, her husband started
having affairs and they separated. She could not go back to her home country, and was forced to leave her own mother who was on her death bed,
as she could only get a 3 month visa to stay in her native country. Last I
heard was she and her kids are living in Australia!

I am unlikely to ever have enough money to buy land or a house, voting is
not a big issue for me, and I believe even though I am getting divorced that
my permanent residence lasts for 40 years(and I'll be dead by then!).

bexchurnside
Dec 7, 2006, 22:17
There are [B]very few reasons for becoming japanese I think, apart
from the obvious conveniences, like buying land, a house, voting etc.
Or if you wanted to be a professional Sumo wrestler:D
Not long after I moved to Okinawa, a friend told me a sad story about a
lady from (let's just say a European country) who was married to a japanese and had kids. She decided to take japanese nationality, her husband started
having affairs and they separated. She could not go back to her home country, and was forced to leave her own mother who was on her death bed,
as she could only get a 3 month visa to stay in her native country. Last I
heard was she and her kids are living in Australia!
I am unlikely to ever have enough money to buy land or a house, voting is
not a big issue for me, and I believe even though I am getting divorced that
my permanent residence lasts for 40 years(and I'll be dead by then!).

Okinawa eh? Could you do me a favour and ask the GI's there what they would think if Lt. Watada chose to become a Japanese national and lived in Okinawa, which is where his ancestors are from. Now, as far as the Japanese are concerned, Watada then would be Mr. Watada, and not Lieuteant, as he would be a civilan, and the US couldn't have Watada extradited for charges that would be impossible for a Japanese National to get. A loophole is found where he could run away from it all. I feel that for the sake of his life, to have him consider becoming Japanese for wife and kid. Even if he left prision, it takes only one right wing psycho to hurt him badly. The Japanese in Japan aren't aware of the Watada situation, and he could go on there, as if none of this occurred. The only pain he will face is being treated maybe like a gaijin like my fiance might, but that is small price to pay compared to what he will have to pay in the USA!!

thistle
Dec 7, 2006, 22:29
Sure, I'll just go up the road and ask them right now!

What does this have to do with the topic I posted on???
Do you just pounce on every post you can to talk about Lt. Watada..

japantvhost
Dec 10, 2006, 13:45
Times have changed since the original post in 2004. Things are easier for gaijin to obtain Japanese citizenship and more foreigners are doing so. I think you'll see things speeding up in the next few years. Japan is facing a population crisis so you'll see immigration and citizeship rules more relaxed

thistle
Dec 14, 2006, 08:58
The rules may indeed be more relaxed, but the question has still not been
answered; why would a foreigner want to become a naturalised japanese?
It doesn't seem like anyone has come up with any yet:(

For once, I have to agree with original post by Maciamo and say it is one
of the most disastrous things a foreigner could ever do.