PDA

View Full Version : Japan disliked by 60% of neighbours



Maciamo
Apr 29, 2005, 11:08
Here is an interesting survey that can tell us more about how people feel about each other within East Asia.

Asahi News : Japan disliked by 60% of neighbors (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200504280161.html)


Chinese and South Koreans have a harsh view of Japan, with six out of 10 ``disliking'' the nation and more than 80 percent opposed to Japan's bid to gain a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council, according to a recent survey.

It also showed that more than 90 percent of Japan's two Asian neighbors take issue with Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's repeated visits to Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo.

So 10% of the Koreans and Chinese actually don't care about Koizumi's visit ?



In South Korea, 63 percent said they disliked Japan, up from 57 percent in 2001. In China, ``dislike'' responses shot up to 64 percent, from 34 percent in a 1997 survey and 53 percent in 2002.
...
Japanese also have a chilly view of their neighbors, the poll showed. 22 percent said they disliked South Korea, compared with 15 percent who liked the nation. For China, 28 percent of Japanese surveyed chose ``dislike,'' almost three times the 10 percent who chose ``like.''


The feelings seem to be reciprocal, although over half of the Japanese surveyed seemed to be in two minds, neither liking nor disliking their neighbours. Just indifferent.

And now the Yasukuni issue.


The survey found 92 percent in South Korea and 91 percent in China were opposed to Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni Shrine, where Class-A war criminals are enshrined along with the nation's war dead.

In Japan, 28 percent were against the visits, while 54 percent were in favor.
...
In a more recent poll, which The Asahi Shimbun conducted on April 24 following a Japan-China summit, 48 percent of Japanese said Koizumi should refrain from visiting Yasukuni. 36 percent wanted him to continue.

So, the recent demonstrations have given rise to an increase of 20% to the number of Japanese people who think Koizumi should stop visiting the war shrine. At least it has had some effect on the mind. Let's see if he dares going there this 15 August, after his apologies to China.


What about freaky North Korea ?


79 percent of Japanese disliked North Korea. In South Korea, 27 percent favored North Korea, while 26 percent felt ill of the country. In China, 38 percent liked North Korea; 9 percent did not.

Interesting that a much bigger proportion of Japanese dislike North Korea. One would think they are more of a threat to South Korea, but only 1/4 of South Koreans have bad feelings about the North.

Tim33
Apr 30, 2005, 23:20
The south korea issue is suprising i thought that would of been alot higher tbh. If only 1/4 SK dislike NK then whats all that military for lol. Would the money not better spent on food for the starving NK's ???

I can quite understand Japanese attitudes though. I think you will find it in a few places though. I have generally found i dont get on with French people but its just a surface thing. When i actually sit down and have a chat with one we tend to get on. I wonder how many of those interviewed have actually sat down and tried to get on with the Japanese or Vice Versa.

Maciamo
Apr 30, 2005, 23:31
The south korea issue is suprising i thought that would of been alot higher tbh. If only 1/4 SK dislike NK then whats all that military for lol. Would the money not better spent on food for the starving NK's ???

But they are already doing it. See these articles :

Japan boosts N Korea food aid (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/959041.stm) (500,000 tons of food)
Koreas agree 500,000 ton food loan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/946636.stm) (500,000 tons)
US donating food aid to N Korea (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3922195.stm) (50,000 tons, stingy compared to Japan and SK, but better than nothing)

South Korea also helps the North when necessary :

Aid shipment arrives in N Korea (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3667197.stm)


I wonder how many of those interviewed have actually sat down and tried to get on with the Japanese or Vice Versa.

99.9999% of the Japanese have never talked with a North Korean (born and raised in NK, not in Japan) and vice versa. North Koreans cannot leave their country, and tourism to NK is almost inexistent.

Tim33
May 1, 2005, 00:04
So really its all about propaganda and government control rather then people actually thinking about what they say.

Many famous people in Japan are Zainichi(half Korean) without the japanese knowing it.
Beat takeshi for example. I know when telling quite a few japanese people about it they were shocked.

Eisuke
May 1, 2005, 00:35
Many famous people in Japan are Zainichi(half Korean) without the japanese knowing it.
Beat takeshi for example. I know when telling quite a few japanese people about it they were shocked.

Zainichi means a korean resident in Japan. I don't know if there is a word for half-korean in Japanese.
Takeshi Kitano is Japanese. Born in January 18, 1947, in Tokyo, Takeshi Kitano was the youngest of four children of Kikujiro and Saki Kitano.
http://www.hkfilms.150m.com/Japanese/directors/takeshikitano.htm

Tim33
May 1, 2005, 01:02
Really i learnt Zainichi means half korean in Japanese culture lesson. Sigh yet more problems with my course. I was also taught there that Takeshi was Zainichi. Whether through his parents or no im not sure.

Jeez why do i even bother with university.

Glenn
May 1, 2005, 03:08
Zainichi doesn't mean half-anything, and as far as I know it doesn't just mean Koreans in Japan, unless it's been abbreviated for that purpose, like how "homo" has come to mean "homosexual," but really it's a prefix meaning "same." Anyway, it's used to say that any foreigner is living in Japan. It's made up of zai ("in") and nichi (abbr. for "Japan"). For example, zainichi chuugoku-jin is a Chinese person living in Japan. Replace nichi with some other country's abbreviation, and you get things like zaichuu furansu-jin: a French person living in China.

Thomas56
May 1, 2005, 07:07
All the "somewhat" third world countries hate world powers, because they depend on them. No one really likes us except the UK...I think.

Jent
May 2, 2005, 06:57
It doesn't seem like that poll gave exact reasons on way they hate each other. It said that some of them were opposed to Koizumi's visit.
And Thomas I agree with you. I think that they are hated because they are such a strong power over in their portion of the world. When you have money and success, people tend to get jealous, anywhere that you go.
A lot of countries despise the US, but they really can't do a whole lot about it because we're supplying their butts with imported goods and financial aid.

Maciamo
May 2, 2005, 15:51
All the "somewhat" third world countries hate world powers, because they depend on them. No one really likes us except the UK...I think.

Would you define Japan as a world power ? If so, aren't the UK, France or Germany world power as well ? Why do so many people dislike the US, or Japan within East Asia, but not the UK, France and Germany ? There is a reason for everything.

pipokun
May 2, 2005, 17:55
The result, in Japan at least, must be quite a different if "don't care" option'd been placed.

Shibuyaexpat
May 2, 2005, 22:52
...I think that they are hated because they are such a strong power over in their portion of the world. When you have money and success, people tend to get jealous, anywhere that you go.
A lot of countries despise the US, but they really can't do a whole lot about it because we're supplying their butts with imported goods and financial aid.

Jent, when you have a chance, I highly recommend that you take a look at article referenced in the thread (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16371) started by Sukotto. I think that you'll find it rather interesting to know the status of the U.S. economy, as well as Japan's current economic standing.

To categorically define the East Asian sentiment towards Japan as jealousy is a bit narrowly focused. You'll find through reading of the posts here, as well as historical texts, that there is a lot more than simply that.

Maciamo
May 2, 2005, 23:05
The result, in Japan at least, must be quite a different if "don't care" option'd been placed.

No, the "dont care" are counted. There were about 15% who liked Koreans and 22% who disliked Koreans. That's only 37%. So the remaining 63% is surely "don't care".

MeAndroo
May 4, 2005, 02:07
I'd be interested in seeing if there was an ambivalent response, as opposed to an indifferent one. One of the inherent flaws in surveys using the like - dislike scale is that people must weigh both pros and cons, so if they have both positive and negative opinions about a country, they may end up putting the middle option because they don't feel strongly either way. This can lead the results in the direction of many people seemingly not caring one way or the other when in fact they have established opinions.

Tonysoong
May 23, 2005, 16:20
I can quite understand Japanese attitudes though. I think you will find it in a few places though. I have generally found i dont get on with French people but its just a surface thing. When i actually sit down and have a chat with one we tend to get on. I wonder how many of those interviewed have actually sat down and tried to get on with the Japanese or Vice Versa.

You mean every normal human being can get on with any other or other group of people just by sitting down with him/them? Okay, let's just suggest all the 60 percent of South Koreans and Chinese spend the rest f lives sitting down with each of the Japanese, just to see if they can really get on!

Even i doubt you are talking about getting on with prostitutes when you suggest sitting down as a test stone for likelihood of getting on.

Tonysoong
May 23, 2005, 16:35
All the "somewhat" third world countries hate world powers, because they depend on them. No one really likes us except the UK...I think.

This generalisation is somewhat ungrounded as far as i am concerned-- i love America, my students mostly adore America as a perfect model of democracy. And i don't think we depend on you, instead we feel that America is a responsible partner despite the CCP's efforts to belitttle America for evil ideological reasons.

andorin
May 25, 2005, 22:20
This generalisation is somewhat ungrounded as far as i am concerned-- i love America, my students mostly adore America as a perfect model of democracy. And i don't think we depend on you, instead we feel that America is a responsible partner despite the CCP's efforts to belitttle America for evil ideological reasons.


i think that its the common belief by most 'level headed' americans that we are despised by the rest of the world. by 'level headed' i do mean people who didnt vote for bush, of course. because we seem to be the protagonist in almost every conflict that comes up in world politics.

and in response to the percentages taken from this survey, can we see the reference groups please? because surveys can be greatly biased as a marketing scheme[at least its used that way in the good ol' US], where they take a certain amount of people that they know will vote the way the surveyers want them to.

Tonysoong
May 29, 2005, 15:48
Relax, Andorin, just come to China and experience it yourself, and i will be hosting you. The CCP does not equate China, and even the CCP is making efforts to revive traditional Chinese culture and in the meanwhile to copy America (not in terns of political pattern of coursr, for reasons everybody knows, :)).

pipokun
May 29, 2005, 18:52
i think that its the common belief by most 'level headed' americans that we are despised by the rest of the world. by 'level headed' i do mean people who didnt vote for bush, of course. because we seem to be the protagonist in almost every conflict that comes up in world politics.

and in response to the percentages taken from this survey, can we see the reference groups please? because surveys can be greatly biased as a marketing scheme[at least its used that way in the good ol' US], where they take a certain amount of people that they know will vote the way the surveyers want them to.

Fair enough. :cool:

Tonysoong
May 29, 2005, 22:01
If so many Japanese prefer to believe certain facts and ignore others, sheerly according to their own liking, nobody can help

Tonysoong
May 29, 2005, 22:06
But i think Japan still stand opportunities to make heartfelt apologies to its Asian neighbors before it is too late

Brooker
May 30, 2005, 05:13
But none of the countries in Asia like each other.

lexico
May 30, 2005, 05:32
Are we talking about 1) people-to-people or 2) people-to-gov's ?
Isn't 1) usually "like" and 2) have mixed feelings ?
It's still too simplistic to ask for sweeping opinions; sending the wrong kind of message that forming one-worded opinions is okay, naturally expected, and even normal, and good. How about "difficult to say ?" for an answer.

Tonysoong has a point; maybe all countries have their fair share of liars, swindlers, and politicians. But why is it that in Japan, these three personalities converge into remorseless figureheads who get voted into public offices ??? Perhaps Korea and Taiwan, as former long-term colonies of Japan, should go around making surrogate apologies on behalf of Japan and normalize this dark corner of the earth. Of course, I don't know how effective it will be, or whether it will do any good for Japan, but there is partial truth in it too. In a way, it could be the starting point of coming to terms with our pasts.

iranyahoo
Mar 25, 2006, 20:15
I remember the time in my High school which was International HS located in New York.
the time Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni Shrine all chinese students beat up a japanse girl

名無し
Mar 25, 2006, 21:07
I remember the time in my High school which was International HS located in New York.
the time Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni Shrine all chinese students beat up a japanse girlIt is not the first occasion that racial hatred against ethnic Japanese was observed in schools in the US. They were harrassed in&out classrooms about the comfort woman issue back in 1992, then history textbook stuff in 1996.
It is just that there are always some people who keep looking for excuses for enjoyment of lynch. And they will find next topic besides the shrine sooner or later.

Fortunately "neighbors" who feel good by hating Japan are not the majority in the world:

BBC Poll: Attitudes towards Countries (http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbcpoll06-3.html)
Japan received very high ratings. Of the 33 countries polled, a remarkable 31 gave a positive rating and 21 of these were a majority. On average 55 percent gave a positive rating and 18 percent a negative one. Japan was not rated in the 2004 BBC World Service poll.

The two exceptions were China and South Korea, where 71 and 54 percent, respectively, said that Japan is having a negative influence.Interesting contrast to China's reputation.

nurizeko
Mar 25, 2006, 21:41
Asian countries still got a long way to come to leave this nationalistic pride feuled hatred behind.

I know WW2 sucked *** but jesus, everyone suffered, get over it.

Han Chan
Mar 26, 2006, 18:38
It would seem like the political leaders in both Korea, China and Japan are succeeding to divert the frustration of their populations by drumming up fear and distrust towards their neighbors. If this Asian "cold war" continues to escalate it, could eventually lead to real confrontation. Very sad indeed!

Thunderthief
Mar 26, 2006, 19:27
Racial hatred is so pointless, people need to get over the past and let bygones be bygones. Most of the people from that era are dead, or elderly at this point, problem is they passed there hatred onto there children and the cycle repeats.

Minty
Mar 27, 2006, 06:04
I think that they are hated because they are such a strong power over in their portion of the world. When you have money and success, people tend to get jealous, anywhere that you go.

Japan can concentrate on their economy and becomes wealthy is because America is doing the military protection for her, where as the other Asian countries have to fund their own military costs.


A lot of countries despise the US, but they really can't do a whole lot about it because we're supplying their butts with imported goods and financial aid.

I think this has more to do with the war on Iraq and other "International Police Status" the Americans have been acting upon on other nations rather than the financial aids. Despite of the aids, most countries that are not allied with Americans believed the US has mostly only helped them for their own interests.


Interesting contrast to China's reputation.

Japan has a good reputation today is because they don't intervene in other people's wars of conflicts, preferring to donate money and a small amount of troops when forced into some reluctant morality.

But the reason Japan don't intervene with any of those things is because Japan have not been freed from restraint that restrict military cooperation with allies due to her war crimes from the Second World War.

Actually I am not sure if Japan today is to have a full fledged military she will intervene with other people’s wars of conflict or not but the fact is even if they wanted to they can’t.

Japan currently wants constitutional changes, she propose to shift military outlook and encouraging military expansion. Her Asian neighbours who suffered from Japanese war crimes is closely watching for any signs of resurgence of militarism. Many of the Asian neighbours are afraid that Japan’s military genie might be eventually starting to breakout its bottle, 60 years after the end of world wall II.

The fact that Chinese and Koreans have more unfavourable views on Japan is not surprising at all.

The Chinese have great deal of causes to disfavour the Japanese, only because of their military control of China and savage handling of Chinese up to WWII. After WWII, a civil war resulted in which the Communist Party, conducted by Mao took over China. Mao was clamant that the Chinese should be grateful to the Japanese because their military control of China served to sabotage the Nationalist Party, helping a communist takeover. Of course any community discrepancy against the authoritative party was not permitted. So we don't really know what most people thought at that time.

As for the Koreans, the issue of chemical experiments conducted by the Japanese militants on the locals, the issue of comfort women and the issue of Japanese history books used in schools do not mention atrocities committed in WWII during the Second World War have continued to bother them today.

Those issues also bother the Chinese as well.

Moreover, the Japanese government is trying to affect that they did nothing incorrect during WWII and the Right wing continues attempting to alter history in Japan. The state of affairs is virtually correspondent to if present-day Germany traversed that the Holocaust happened. Considerably the Chinese and the Koreans were the ones who suffered the most from their war crimes; the level of their resentment would logically be higher.


Racial hatred is so pointless, people need to get over the past and let bygones be bygones. Most of the people from that era are dead, or elderly at this point, problem is they passed there hatred onto there children and the cycle repeats.

If Japan stop denying the rape of Nanking and other atrocities and are compliant to accept to that these atrocities did take place I think this cycle of hatred will cease. I also think Japanese prime ministers should not continue to visit the Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to class A war criminals, annually, after all actions speak louder than words.

lastmagi
Mar 27, 2006, 06:32
I agree with Minty. The over-dependence on the usage of popular maxims "forgive and forget" and "let bygones be bygones" and "it's all in the past" is now getting ridiculous, often cited by naive viewpoints that rarely ever get deeper than a superficial perspective. It is in the past, true, but the issue persists into the present because of a historical chain of actions and attitudes. Japan and the Japanese government seem to persist in saving its own face, save for a small minority of wonderful Japanese folks who are willing to try to work things out- it's something that I think will bite it in its rear if that small minority, and the other Asian countries, are ignored.

changedonrequest
Mar 27, 2006, 08:51
First off the link in the OP no longer works http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200504280161.html and it redirects the user to the headline page.
Secondly percentages in any survey can be used to make any number of conclusions about what the person who wrote the survey wishes the data to be.


99.9999% of the Japanese have never talked with a North Korean (born and raised in NK, not in Japan) and vice versa. North Koreans cannot leave their country, and tourism to NK is almost inexistent.
I know what you are trying to say but there are numerous North Korean's living in Japan, yes born in North Korea and live in Japan. A friend of mine is married to a woman born and raised in North Korea. You are going a bit too far by implying that nearly 100% of the people don't know a person born there, or from there.


Koreans in Japan are called Zainichi Chosenjin (在日朝鮮人, for North Koreans) or Zainichi Kankokujin (在日韓国人, for South Koreans) in Japanese and Jaeil Gyopo (재일교포) in Korean. There are 529,000 Koreans in Japan, amounting to 40.4% of the non-Japanese population of the country. Three-quarters of the Koreans living in Japan are Japanese-born, and most are legal aliens

Notice there is a distinct difference between Zainichi Kankojin and Zainichi Chosenjin. The word Zainichi literally means simply "resident in Japan

There are many "famous" people in Japan that are either Zainichi Kankokujin or Zainichi Chosenjin. Did you know that Wada Akiko is one as well? She was born Kim Bok Ja and had her name "Japanized" to Kaneumi Fukuko.
http://www.japan-zone.com/modern/wada_akiko.shtml

godppgo
Apr 4, 2006, 07:27
I agree with Minty. The over-dependence on the usage of popular maxims "forgive and forget" and "let bygones be bygones" and "it's all in the past" is now getting ridiculous, often cited by naive viewpoints that rarely ever get deeper than a superficial perspective. It is in the past, true, but the issue persists into the present because of a historical chain of actions and attitudes. Japan and the Japanese government seem to persist in saving its own face, save for a small minority of wonderful Japanese folks who are willing to try to work things out- it's something that I think will bite it in its rear if that small minority, and the other Asian countries, are ignored.

Now you do realize the whole WWII apology thing has been utilized as political tools by both sides.

lastmagi
Apr 4, 2006, 08:45
Yes, but that's relevant to what I wrote because......?

Besides, it should be obvious it's not exclusively a political tool. Otherwise, why would people outside of those countries also feel so strongly about it?

Anyway, what I'm concerned about regarding the whole issue is more focused on morality, the general irresponsibility of owning up to the past only superficially, and the cultural barriers that prevent more understanding.

celtician
Apr 10, 2006, 21:04
Well to be honest. The japanese feel they are not Asian in some way?????
But what way is that??

Minty
Apr 11, 2006, 01:49
Now you do realize the whole WWII apology thing has been utilized as political tools by both sides.

I agree with lastmagi here, this is about ethics and conscience, I would like to see Japan modelling Germany of the way they handle the Second World War issues.


Well to be honest. The japanese feel they are not Asian in some way?????
But what way is that??

Japanese people think they are incomparable and they think that their culture are dissimilar to any other in the globe. They think they are different particularly with either Westerners (often exemplify by Americans) or Asians such as the Chinese and (and to a smaller level) the Koreans. It’s called nihonjinron 日本人論.

budd
Apr 11, 2006, 08:27
just pointing out that many of these countries mentioned not liking japan don't really like any other countries either
plus the ones that choose to live in america and make money off of america are just as racist as any japanese/american person i've met...
please look up racist remarks about condoleeza rice's visit to china -- i don't approve of the person or their politics/ethics, but referring to ANYBODY as an species of ape or subhuman is pretty foul (imo) :(

osias
Apr 14, 2006, 05:20
"Disliked by 60% of neighbors" is an exaggeration.
What about the rest of Asia???

osias
Apr 14, 2006, 05:57
I agree with lastmagi here, this is about ethics and conscience, I would like to see Japan modelling Germany of the way they handle the Second World War issues.
Japanese people think they are incomparable and they think that their culture are dissimilar to any other in the globe. They think they are different particularly with either Westerners (often exemplify by Americans) or Asians such as the Chinese and (and to a smaller level) the Koreans. It’s called nihonjinron 日本人論.

If anyone did something wrong, s/he has to apologize. That's true.
Actually, Japanese ppl tend to apologize more for so many things daily (even if it's not really their mistake) than the Chinese/Koreans do. You hear Japanese ppl saying, "sorry for this, sorry for that" everyday. Mistakes are forgiven.

In contrast, the Chinese/Koreans are not good at admitting their mistakes because saving their own "face" is the highest priority, and also because others will take advantage of them, once they admit their mistakes and apologize. Korea/China tend to avoid their responsibility and blame others, instead. There is a cultural difference.

So maybe apologies do not work with China or Korea.
What a taiwanese scholar(黄文雄) says is that China has been taking advantage of Japan's apologies, and will continue to do so..Compensation is never-ending. Korea even blames Japan for the invasion 500 years ago.

Japan has been helping these countries, but all the good things she has done to them are almost unknown to their ppl. Are they deliberately hiding the good things Japan has done to make Japan look like an absolute evil?

It's either domination or obedience..Why do China/Korea keep telling the Japanese that they are Japan's "elder brothers" and "teachers"? China still calls Japan 小日本??

Minty
Apr 14, 2006, 23:21
If anyone did something wrong, s/he has to apologize. That's true.
Actually, Japanese ppl tend to apologize more for so many things daily (even if it's not really their mistake) than the Chinese/Koreans do. You hear Japanese ppl saying, "sorry for this, sorry for that" everyday. Mistakes are forgiven.

I don’t think apologies mean much when the Japanese government try to affect that they did nothing incorrect during WWII and the Right wing continues attempting to alter history in Japan. The state of affairs is virtually correspondent to if present-day Germany traversed that the Holocaust happened.


In contrast, the Chinese/Koreans are not good at admitting their mistakes because saving their own "face" is the highest priority, and also because others will take advantage of them, once they admit their mistakes and apologize. Korea/China tend to avoid their responsibility and blame others, instead. There is a cultural difference.

Korea and China are not first world countries so you cannot expect them to reach that stage yet. However I believe they are on the way to become developed nations. Since Japan is already a first world country then she should act like one, and not try to deny her past.


So maybe apologies do not work with China or Korea.
What a taiwanese scholar(黄文雄) says is that China has been taking advantage of Japan's apologies, and will continue to do so..Compensation is never-ending.

And the Taiwanese don’t have their own political agenda to gain independence?


Korea even blames Japan for the invasion 500 years ago.

Aboriginals still blame white Australians for their invasion of their country, so do many others. This is the way it is.


Japan has been helping these countries, but all the good things she has done to them are almost unknown to their ppl. Are they deliberately hiding the good things Japan has done to make Japan look like an absolute evil?

I believe if Japan stop denying the rape of Nanking and other atrocities and Japanese prime ministers stop to visit the Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to class A war criminals, annually, the good things Japanese today are doing will work.

It's either domination or obedience..Why do China/Korea keep telling the Japanese that they are Japan's "elder brothers" and "teachers"? China still calls Japan 小日本??

This is deep-seated Sino centric mentality as ancient China was the "dominant cultural focus” for the domain for over 2000 years, there is a scrap of sinocentricism among some modern day Chinese.

godppgo
Apr 15, 2006, 02:32
It's either domination or obedience..Why do China/Korea keep telling the Japanese that they are Japan's "elder brothers" and "teachers"? China still calls Japan 小日本??

You know what's funny. Some Taiwanese have this 小日本 mentality as well. I mean what part of Japan is "smaller" than Taiwan?

osias
Apr 15, 2006, 02:40
Yes, Japan should apologize and compensate until she ends up smtg like this↓
http://aog.2y.net/forums/uploads/post-5-1119199368.jpg
just kidding..(did anyone delete the previous posting?)

osias
Apr 15, 2006, 03:04
I don’t think apologies mean much when the Japanese government try to affect that they did nothing incorrect during WWII and the Right wing continues attempting to alter history in Japan. The state of affairs is virtually correspondent to if present-day Germany traversed that the Holocaust happened.
Korea and China are not first world countries so you cannot expect them to reach that stage yet. However I believe they are on the way to become developed nations. Since Japan is already a first world country then she should act like one, and not try to deny her past.
And the Taiwanese don’t have their own political agenda to gain independence?
Aboriginals still blame white Australians for their invasion of their country, so do many others. This is the way it is.
I believe if Japan stop denying the rape of Nanking and other atrocities and Japanese prime ministers stop to visit the Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to class A war criminals, annually, the good things Japanese today are doing will work.
This is deep-seated Sino centric mentality as ancient China was the "dominant cultural focus” for the domain for over 2000 years, there is a scrap of sinocentricism among some modern day Chinese.

Japan is not a totalitarian state, and opinions do vary within the country.
When the Right wing is saying "A", the Left wing is saying "B". We can't stop that from happening. The right wing does not represent the country's official opinion. There is no consensus within the country (or outside the country) as to what has happened in the past. There are different views of history. Different 史観.

I don't think that Japan denies anything, the government has been making official apologies, but there is no agreement as to what she has to apologize for...Japan does not think she has to accept everything that China/Korea accuse her of. Actually, some J-ppl are getting tired of what they see as false accusations.

You also have to note that some historians from Japan, China & Korea are trying to fill this perception gap, and they actually cooperated to publish a history textbook which is common to all three countries. (I don't remember the title, what was it??) This textbook was mostly pro-China & pro-Korea.

The Yasukuni Shrine is not dedicated to the war criminals. It's a common misconception. It's dedicated to those who died in the past wars.

You are a Chinese, indeed.

osias
Apr 15, 2006, 03:18
You know what's funny. Some Taiwanese have this 小日本 mentality as well. I mean what part of Japan is "smaller" than Taiwan?
I was also wondering about that. Perhaps because they still believe that ROC still covers all over mainland China. Overall, Taiwanese ppl are rather friendly, but they also have a similar mentality as the Chinese in PRC.

Minty
Apr 15, 2006, 05:23
You are a Chinese, indeed.

The problem with you is you are unable to accept criticism about your country yet you like to generalize Koreans and Chinese.

If you can't take somebody’s criticism on your own country, then it's wrong for you to criticise somebody else’s.

I have criticised my own people if I think they did wrong but my intentions were not for the sake of causing offence, so I wouldn’t say I am blindly defending Chinese or Korean people or criticising Japanese. I say what I think is right.

The reason I join this forum is not to pick out fights so, it seems that the arguments we have discussed are going that way and I think I would no longer respond, because it is pointless.

osias
Apr 15, 2006, 05:41
The problem with you is you are unable to accept criticism about your country yet you like to generalize Koreans and Chinese.
If you can't take somebody’s criticism on your own country, then it's wrong for you to criticise somebody else’s.
I have criticised my own people if I think they did wrong but my intentions were not for the sake of causing offence, so I wouldn’t say I am blindly defending Chinese or Korean people or criticising Japanese. I say what I think is right.
The reason I join this forum is not to pick out fights so, it seems that the arguments we have discussed are going that way and I think I would no longer respond, because it is pointless.

So I'm not allowed to say I don't agree with you, but you can disagree with me?? I'm saying what I think is right, just like you do. If anything's mistaken, plz be free to say so. I might be wrong.

Different views..
I thought there were some misunderstandings..

gaijinalways
Apr 15, 2006, 19:54
Japan is not a totalitarian state, and opinions do vary within the country.
When the Right wing is saying "A", the Left wing is saying "B". We can't stop that from happening. The right wing does not represent the country's official opinion. There is no consensus within the country (or outside the country) as to what has happened in the past. There are different views of history. Different 史観.

This is both correct and incorrect. Certainly there is no one opinion, but I would say the government and the media are quite right wing, so guess which opinions get more press? Guess what groups controls the country?


I don't think that Japan denies anything, the government has been making official apologies, but there is no agreement as to what she has to apologize for...Japan does not think she has to accept everything that China/Korea accuse her of. Actually, some J-ppl are getting tired of what they see as false accusations.

No, actually the apologies have been very general, not actually mentioning the comfort women or Nanjing. The Japanese government also refuses to provide compensation to anyone in Korea or China affected by the war as well, hiding behind treaties that were signed before it was known how many civilians had been tortured and killed. As to false accusations, yes, there are many made on on three sides; Korean, Chinese, and Japanese. The Japanese are hardly in a position to pretend to be innocent.


You also have to note that some historians from Japan, China & Korea are trying to fill this perception gap, and they actually cooperated to published a history textbook which is common to all three countries. (I don't remember the title, what was it??) This textbook was mostly pro-China & pro-Korea.

IT's true, again some historians, but I would say they are in the minority. Ienaga's textbook lawsuit has been a long standing one, but generally many citizens in Japan seem to be unaware of it.


The Yasukuni Shrine is not dedicated to the war criminals. It's a common misconception. It's dedicated to those who died in the past wars.

This is technically true. There are many people who are not war criminals that are buried in the Yasukuni Shrine, as well as some people who don't want to be buried there (Koreans and Taiwanese who were forced to fight for the Japanese), and the war criminals. It's a private shrine, so in some ways the government can't control what goes on there (though I would think they , the government, could decide that it is a good idea to not keep going there).

pipokun
Apr 15, 2006, 20:22
I would say the government and the media are quite right wing,


Describe more what you mean right wing in Japan...
Japan liberal media needs to criticize themselves on what they did in the past, though I don't think Japan media needs o'reilly-like guys.

And buried in the shrine? sigh...

osias
Apr 16, 2006, 03:41
This is both correct and incorrect. Certainly there is no one opinion, but I would say the government and the media are quite right wing, so guess which opinions get more press? Guess what groups controls the country?

Do you think so?
It really depends, Asahi is pretty left, some ppl even say this is an anti-Japan newspaper.



No, actually the apologies have been very general, not actually mentioning the comfort women or Nanjing. The Japanese government also refuses to provide compensation to anyone in Korea or China affected by the war as well, hiding behind treaties that were signed before it was known how many civilians had been tortured and killed. As to false accusations, yes, there are many made on on three sides; Korean, Chinese, and Japanese. The Japanese are hardly in a position to pretend to be innocent.
[/B]

Maybe, the government mentions the atrocities ambiguously to avoid confrontations with other countries.

We just know that different ppl are saying different things about Nanjing & comfort women. Younger generations have never witnessed anything, so one story is no more convincing than another. Different interests are involved, so it's difficult to come up with one answer.

About the textbooks..You don't have to stick to one single answer. Just let the kids know that it's a controversial topic, and that different ppl are claiming different things..China & Korea are trying to push on Japan to take up their view, I think this is a kind of 老大心態, but there is no need to..

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%97%E4%BA%AC%E5%A4%A7%E8%99%90%E6%AE%BA%E8%A B%96%E4%BA%89

bossel
Apr 16, 2006, 11:01
some ppl even say this is an anti-Japan newspaper.
Which probably says something about these people who say so.


Maybe, the government mentions the atrocities ambiguously to avoid confrontations with other countries.
Strangely, it's just this ambiguity which leads to confrontations. Are you sure?


About the textbooks..You don't have to stick to one single answer. Just let the kids know that it's a controversial topic, and that different ppl are claiming different things..
That sounds like this crappy creationist talk: "Let us teach Intelligent Design in biology because there are people who claim it is scientific."

nurizeko
Apr 16, 2006, 16:54
This is so old, both sides are claiming to be innocence abused, the other portrayed as the devil of asia.

I think everyone needs a f***ing smashed brick across the gob, then maybe these f***ers will stop being such pathetic little children and once and for all sit down and sort this s*** out.

I'm so tired of reading these fight-night threads, the chinese bashing on the japanese while sniping at the koreans, the koreans thrashing wildly at everyone else, the japanese smacking the other two with a soft white glove before retreating behind the economic and sea wall.

FFS everyone, grow up and start behaving like adults, you make european imperialism look like a good idea.

Europe had it pretty bad bloody s***ty but for all that hatred and distrust of each other we learned to overcome our differences and create a continent more unified then any other.

If britons can forget the years of bombing raids and terror of invasion, if the germans can forgive the dresden bombings and russian atrocities, if the russians can get over their dead, if everyone can just swallow it down and take one for the team for a better future for the next generation, then for gods sake asia......step up and do the same.



- A very sick and tired Nuri

osias
Apr 16, 2006, 22:15
YEAH, IT'S SO CRAPPY, so what do you think the resolution is??

China estimates that their damage in Nanjing is 300,000 ppl (or even 400,000). (But their statistics is really bad, you know.)

Some Japanese ppl see this as an overestimation, one Japanese textbook says the number of victims is 200,000. (Though it's no more convincing than another. We don't know.)

China once relinquished their right to seek reparations, but now they recently started to seek "individual" reparations.

North Korea also agreed to seek no reparations, but is now also claiming payment for their victims (200,000 comfort women, 8,400,000 laborers), besides economic aid.

But nobody offers any proof, so the J-gov. should just acknowledge what they claim?? and give out the money that they ask for? Or......??

Even if Japan agreed to pay, I don't think it would help the individuals that suffered. N-korean gov would use it for another purpose.

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060212-00000005-san-pol

Last year, the S-Korean government's lie to the Korean public was revealed. Now it's clear that Japan and Korea have agreed that the S-Korean government is responsible for individual compensations.

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060308-00000156-kyodo-int

http://www.cc.matsuyama-u.ac.jp/〜tamura/nikkannkyoutei.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responses_of_Germany_and_Japan_to_World_War_II_cri mes


Additionally, Japan agreed $300 million donation and $200 million loan to South Korea as "management of claims" for a former colony. However, the transfer of the money was hidden in South Korea and keeps the Korean public in the dark about the compensation. President Park who had been holding the power when the normalization was completed, was later assassinated, and the omission of compensation for individual Korean is blamed on him.

It's easy to blame Japan..but China & Korea are responsible for the irrational criticisms towards Japan. (If not totally, at least partially.) They don't let the ppl know what Japan has done to help them. Most Chinese ppl only know that their gov relinquished their claim to reparations, (in chinese they say, 以徳報怨, bullshit!) so they tend to think Japan has done nothing to make up for the past. They get irate because of that. The ppl (Korea & China) know very little about Japanese ODA and contributions. It's like they're taking Japanese money for no reason...

Is Japan like a goose that can lay golden eggs..? More victims= more money?

Gaijinian
Apr 16, 2006, 22:59
I read Maciamo's first link about Japan giving 500,000 tons of food aid to NK... To have a sign that says, "食糧支援反対," is just disgusting, IMHO... How could a Japanese look at a starving NK kid (that looks exactly like them), and say they are Anti-Feeding them... wow.

bossel
Apr 17, 2006, 11:17
YEAH, IT'S SO CRAPPY, so what do you think the resolution is??
China estimates that their damage in Nanjing is 300,000 ppl (or even 400,000). (But their statistics is really bad, you know.)
The statistics of Japanese revisionists seem even worse. I suppose, you should check the Nanjing thread(s) we already have. This has been discussed at length:
http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6559
http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15507
& more.

ejay1
Apr 17, 2006, 12:14
But none of the countries in Asia like each other.

thats not true, the Philippines doesn't have any dislike for other asian countries.

In fact the only country that it should have a dislike for, Japan. Well the Philippines has no hard feelings for Japan. Maybe the occasional old folks who remember WW2.

osias
Apr 17, 2006, 16:31
The statistics of Japanese revisionists seem even worse.


It seems worse only if you know what the accurate number is. People are just playing with numbers.

zeroyon
Apr 17, 2006, 17:12
here is a picture that I think is relavent to this topic
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2003/0000japan0yg.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000japan0yg.jpg)
To those who can't read, it is a survey on "What do you think of Japan? (like or dislike)".
For South Korea, 12% like japan, 86% hate it, and 2% are undecided.
For Taiwan, 93% like japan, 4% hate it, and 3% are undecided.
For Thailand, 96% like japan, and 4% hate it.
For Singapore, 94% like japan, and 6% hate it.

All of these countries were taken over by Japan before and during WWII, and ALL were subject to extreme violence by the japanese imperial army. So... why does South Korea still dispise Japan... and taiwan, singapore and thailand seem to have gotten over it? You tell me....

I also had an image and link of a survey that included the Philippines and China as well. I think that the Philippines had it just as bad as china or korea with hundreds of thousands of its people being killed, but in the survey, somewhere around 90% of the people surveyed liked japan and 10% hated it ....while in china, it was around 20% like, 80% hate. Anyone have the link to this? It was on my old comp that died... -_-

EDIT: can anyone please give a complete translation of what each person is saying in the image? I know a bit of japanese to differentiate between the "kirai" and "suki" and "nihon wo dou omou ka" etc... but I can't read all of it.

ejay1
Apr 17, 2006, 21:38
here is a picture that I think is relavent to this topic
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2003/0000japan0yg.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000japan0yg.jpg)

I also had an image and link of a survey that included the Philippines and China as well. I think that the Philippines had it just as bad as china or korea with hundreds of thousands of its people being killed, but in the survey, somewhere around 90% of the people surveyed liked japan and 10% hated it ....while in china, it was around 20% like, 80% hate. Anyone have the link to this? It was on my old comp that died... -_-
EDIT: can anyone please give a complete translation of what each person is saying in the image? I know a bit of japanese to differentiate between the "kirai" and "suki" and "nihon wo dou omou ka" etc... but I can't read all of it.
Thats because filipinos don't usually have long grudges. Seriously if we have to hate the Japanese, we would have to hate the Americans and the SPanish for the atrocities they commited in the Philippines.

osias
Apr 17, 2006, 22:00
Thats because filipinos don't usually have long grudges. Seriously if we have to hate the Japanese, we would have to hate the Americans and the SPanish for the atrocities they commited in the Philippines.

Right, so let's hate the americans:blush: :blush:

osias
Apr 17, 2006, 22:19
They make a fuss about Japan's history, but ..↓
Korean Professor Accusing Fabrications in Korean History Textbooks (Sorry, in Japanese)

http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2004/11/20/20041120000000.html

ソウル大教授「日本による収奪論は作られた神話」
 日本による植民地時代に韓国が土地と食糧を収奪され たという韓国史教科書の著述は歪曲されたものだという 主張が提起されている。
 韓日問題を論じるシンポジウムでソウル大学の李栄薫 (イ・ヨンフン)教授が発表した内容だが、李教授は過 去の「従軍慰安婦は売春業」発言に続き、再び論争を呼び起こし ている。
 「1910年に日本は大韓帝国を強制的に併合した」
 「日本は韓国が植民地だった35年間に、韓国の土地の 40%以上を収奪し、膨大な米を略奪していった」
 これらが韓国が独立後、40年以上にわたり中学・高校 の国史教科書に記載されている内容だ。
So Japan should take up their view?? No way!

bossel
Apr 18, 2006, 12:06
To those who can't read, it is a survey on "What do you think of Japan? (like or dislike)".
For South Korea, 12% like japan, 86% hate it, and 2% are undecided.
For Taiwan, 93% like japan, 4% hate it, and 3% are undecided.
For Thailand, 96% like japan, and 4% hate it.
For Singapore, 94% like japan, and 6% hate it.
How representative was this poll, who conducted it & what were the questions? I have some doubts, esp. because of the wording (& the numbers). "Like" & "hate" are not usually included in reputable surveys.

The included graphic is from what I would consider a rather representative poll (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/168.php?nid=&id=&pnt=168&lb=hmpg1#Japan).

4321go
Apr 18, 2006, 19:14
Japan is not a totalitarian state, and opinions do vary within the country.
When the Right wing is saying "A", the Left wing is saying "B". We can't stop that from happening. The right wing does not represent the country's official opinion. There is no consensus within the country (or outside the country) as to what has happened in the past. There are different views of history. Different 史観.
I don't think that Japan denies anything, the government has been making official apologies, but there is no agreement as to what she has to apologize for...Japan does not think she has to accept everything that China/Korea accuse her of. Actually, some J-ppl are getting tired of what they see as false accusations.
You also have to note that some historians from Japan, China & Korea are trying to fill this perception gap, and they actually cooperated to publish a history textbook which is common to all three countries. (I don't remember the title, what was it??) This textbook was mostly pro-China & pro-Korea.


The Yasukuni Shrine is not dedicated to the war criminals. It's a common misconception. It's dedicated to those who died in the past wars.


You are a Chinese, indeed.
Wow,so long ~! thanks for posting ~ express yourself quite well ~~


The Yasukuni Shrine is not dedicated to the war criminals. It's a common misconception. It's dedicated to those who died in the past wars.
then, let the Yasukuni Shrine save the bone of people being killed by Japanese ,and the killer (Japanese)should out of Yasukuni Shrine .

Hiroyuki Nagashima
Apr 18, 2006, 21:34
Wow,so long ~! thanks for posting ~ express yourself quite well ~~
then, let the Yasukuni Shrine save the bone of people being killed by Japanese ,and the killer (Japanese)should out of Yasukuni Shrine .


It is the strange logic
Does not China have a war dead memorial service institution?
Did the war dead of your country kill none of the enemies?:souka: