Is Japan a Western country ?

[kirby36]

Geographically and ethinically, Japan would hardly be Western. Also philosophically again, hardly Western.Hard to see how any one would define it as Western,except for usage of some later developed western technology.



Sir,you hit the nail on the coffin. :-)

S Koreans are grinding out top line big screen TV,cell phones,plus numerous Western-technology inspired consumer products in recent years,how come Western people haven't contemplate whether or not Korea is now fit for " Western Country " status.:?

[ricecake]

Yeah, I don't think Han is that kind of person...ricecake must have been confusing him with Ghettodoink :p



All right .... my bad,it's Ghetto-doink :note:

[taehyun]

:bravo:
It's easy, Japan is Japan.
Neither Western, nor Asian. Just Japan, so let it be :)
Absolutely agree!!:bravo: :flower:

[yamakazu]

It is quite obvious that Japan isn't "Western Country". Some Japanese wanted or want to be it,they failed or will fail to do it. I don't like to see the people who think it that the white are superior to the yellow.

[BenWa]

Japan is unique in its own way. Its almost like its own seperate world.
And that world kicks ***.

[Maciamo]

Japan is unique in its own way. Its almost like its own seperate world.
And that world kicks ***.

Let me disagree. After going to Korea and China, I found that Japan was more similar to these countries than some European countries together.

[caster51]

I found that Japan was more similar to these countries than some European countries together.

because they are also asian.

[Sukotto]

because they are also asian.
I had heard, maybe from a Japanese professor (memory...),
that Korean, Japanese, and Chinese culture are more different
from each other than various European cultures are from each other.

[CBC Guy]

Japan may be the most westernized of the Asian nations, but... its not even close.

They have some similarities, like punctuality, politeness, cleanliness, etc.
And of course the consumer society. But just because its a consumer society doesn't mean its "western." For example, is Hong Kong "western" because it has malls? Is China "western" because it has KFCs? No.

Japan has a distinct culture very much its own, and I don't think its truly 'westernized." And you know what? That might not be a bad thing. The "western" model might not be the only model for development. Japan should not lose its traditions, just as I believe China should not change its traditions TOO much. Some of them supercially enjoy aspects of "American" culture, that's fine, just don't lose your own roots.

Asia should not sell out to the west too much...

[extricate]

Japan is in a sense a "western" nation because if it were not for the west, Japan would not be the democratic, economic powerhouse, and prosperous
nation we see today. Also I'm rather disheartened by the Japanese people on this thread completely rejecting any idea of them being westernized at all:( . Lets take a look at some history shall we?:p
Japan began an offical policy of modernization in 1868, From the 1700's on up they translation many european treatsies on various topics including but not limited to medicine, astronomy, philosophy, etc. In 1811 Japan made a government agency called the "Institute for the Investigation of Barbarian Books." It is unwise to think that Japan became this way on her own. The education system was set up on western models, Armies were trained with Western Tactics and instructors in the late 1800's. The first "democracy" of Japan was set up on the prussian model. Moderization was set up on western models. This is just pure and utter fact and history. The leaders of this time period saw the necessity to modernize and I believe it was a logical decesion on their part. Also after WWII democracy was set up by the USA in Japan.
I'm not trying to say all of Japans success is because of the west. Japan (and Germany as well) did absolutely splendid jobs rebuilding themselves after WWII. I'm just saying without western Influence we probably wouldn't see the same Japan that we see today. Also keep in note Japan has a long history of culture and idea borrowing. It was pretty much a steady thing throughout their entire history (in bc times it was China).
"Is Japan a western nation?" This is hard to discern. i'm not sure if i would define it as a western country but most definitly a westernized country

[extricate]

Food
Clothing
Hair Styles
Youth Attitudes
Foul Language
Vulgar Public Behavior
Erosion of Cultural Values & Traditions
Ghastly Music
. . . to name a few.
Do you not see the irony in an American mourning Japanese culture? My culture is ruining yours and you do not seem at all concerned. It is shocking and very sad.
Do you not care about the integrity of your culture?
you sir are what's called a neo-intellectual. A person that tries to sound smart by condemning things, and or ideas. If you dont like our country then leave.
America has a lot of strong points (our written constitution is a superb document) and a lot of weak points (foreign policy...), but doesnt every nation?

[Han Chan]

If you dont like our country then leave.


I know that many japanese are fed up listening to americans complaining about Japan and japanese people. I would wish that they would be less polite and actually tell these arrogant americans: "If you dont like our country then leave!!!".

I know that most americans in Japan behave well, but the arrogant ones are really upsetting the japanese, they are just too insensitive to even notice it.

[Glenn]

Yeah, it's just the Americans. No one from Europe ever complains about Japan. No one from Australia either.

[Sukotto]

Sir,you hit the nail on the coffin.
S Koreans are grinding out top line big screen TV,cell phones,plus numerous Western-technology inspired consumer products in recent years,how come Western people haven't contemplate whether or not Korea is now fit for " Western Country "



sad thing is, all too many people in the states or maybe it is just media representations, the view is that technology is what makes a country civilized.
and all those other places are some how backwards because of lack of tech.
now that i know better and am growed up, i find that it was quite naive to view the world that way, to put it nicely.

[lilevilbrian]

I think Japan is modernizing, not westernizing. If any country in asia was to be considered most western, it would probally be the philippines

[Supervin]

...
that Korean, Japanese, and Chinese culture are more different
from each other ...
Not at all.

I have shared so much common experience with my Japanese and Korean friends, including movies, TV shows, music, cultural habits, language similarities and enjoyed food. Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture have often been shared with one another.

Despite the language differences, kanji (or hanja in Korean) has always been the bridge. Some of my Japanese friends are even more well versed than I am in some parts of Chinese history, and Korean friends for Chinese movies. Likewise, I am more well versed than some of them in Japanese or Korean movies or music and so on. It's thus no coincidence that actors and actresses can star in each other's movies and television commercials. This is why most can often name popular idols in all three areas: Chinese speaking places (Hong Kong, China, Taiwan), Japan and Korea.

This realization however is often more common for Chinese, Japanese and Koreans who are living abroad or have been, due to greater exposure and understanding.

[Sukotto]

This realization however is often more common for Chinese, Japanese and Koreans who are living abroad or have been, due to greater exposure and understanding.




...
that Korean, Japanese, and Chinese culture are more different
from each other ...


This comes from a Japanese college prof teaching Japanese in the states though.
Maybe she meant traditional culture and not "pop" culture?

[Maciamo]

I think Japan is modernizing, not westernizing. If any country in asia was to be considered most western, it would probally be the philippines

Or Israel, or Turkey, or India...

[bexchurnside]

Japan is just playing the role of poser, it's like calling someone a model just because they own a pair designer jeans, or a better example is like Matsui coming over and playing for the Yankees, they have baseball in Japan but wait, whats that? america has it made and this makes japan fiend to be more "western" in everything it does to the point that they are fleeing their tiny island smaller than california to try and get a piece of our rich golden-brown american pie. so this leads me to believe what i hear time and time again, that the "majority" of Japanese people want to affilate themselves with america in any way they can, thus the reason why we don't have mail order brides in the states, case closed.
God bless america,
Josh
Ghettocities Clothing (Tokyo Promo 02/03)
Free Photos, Video, Music and more.....
http://www.geocities.com/ghettocities/ghettocities.html

I want to just add for fun, a Japanese sentiment mixed with my British. Fusing British and Japanese mindset, I would like to ask, why would you Japanese want to align yourselves with the vulgar Americans when you could be refined enough to be with the British? Don't sell yourself short by aligning yourselves with the dreggs of Europe! They are but peasants. Don't sell yourselves short!


Perhaps westerns are only for the movies... :D
seriously, I think industrialization and government types are not the leading thing to say which country is western or not, more like which nations were originally european and became the majority of that particular country, along with the language spoken...asia is predominantly asian, africans are predominantly black....Australians and New Zealanders tend to be run under British rule, so it is now a western nation with european values, and so is america (even if it became independent of British rule)...think these are what makes a country Western....and Japan is definitely not taken after the european mold, even if the government was set up by americans after the second world war...

Hmm, speaking of wannabee, perhaps you are right. Goldiegirl did mention that her husband was "congratulated" for being able to get a white woman, as if she was some sort of a fine set of antlers! But I wouldn't have thought that the Japanese are on the same level as those from the Philipines. (Hey, now that counts for a Western country as it is a Christian country!)

[Nicholas0016]

Japan is not a western country. I've never seen it but I can take a wild guess from the photos.


Lol, if Japan was a west country you would have tourist around every corner from our country. They only really go where it has some parts of home to them,

[MRC1]

The world has change dramatically in the last 60 years, maybe we should redefine what we mean as a eastern country and a western country. I realize my definition is not current because of the Cold War era that I grew up in and later work in as a young adult.

[Basdlah]

I'm Mexican, and in Mexico we have a western life-style. I know, many think that we are a "developing" country, mostly non-white, but it's not the ethnicity, nor the money, but the political organization of the country.

[loquela]

This is just another directionless bicker over semantics. It reminds me of the gaijin debate.

It might have been helpful if Maciamo had clarified the question in the first place:
What do you mean by 'Western'?

Is Japan Western (Geographically)? - No.
Is Japan Industrialised? - Yes.
Is Japan a democratic nation? Yes.
Is Japan a capitalist state? Yes.
Does it share the same (christian-based) values as most of Europe, Australasia and America? - Not really.

By the the way, I mean Christian-based values. I'm not a christian either but like it or not most of the historical common values of Europe, America, Australasia are based on Christianity
The question 'Is Japan a Western country?' is meaningless until you explain what you mean by western.

[loquela]

Japan is not a western country. I've never seen it but I can take a wild guess from the photos.

Yes, forming opinions of a nation's political and cultural make-up from photos would be pretty wild. :-)

[Mrjones]

You dont need any politics, just look at the map.

[Han Chan]

You dont need any politics, just look at the map.
So Australia and New Zeeland are Eastern countries?

[dark_secrester]

I don't class any country as western. If you are European, you are European. Although being North American is a very similar lifestyle with similar morals and technology etc, it isn't the same as being European. Japan is Japan, not China or India.

Different countries are different places. Heck, Scotland and England have their own differences and they are bordered, talk the same language and have the same gods etc, and are ruled by the same people in westminster, but they are very different people.

Therefore, I place Japan in the 'Japan' catagory, which is neither east nor west.

The problem is, if you look at it on a globe from the UK, France is east of you. But it is also west of you. For Japan, China is west, but it is also east. So going like this, everywhere is East and West. :S

Lol Laters (Sorry, I have to shorten my posts...)

[Sukotto]

Yeah. When I take an airplane out of Chicago to Tokyo it always goes west.
Well, northwest over Canada & Alaska. "we" (most of us on this forum) are all in the North.

[GoodBilly]

Hmm that's a very good question, I read the information you provided about the nato, and stuff. My opinion is that, Japan will always be an eastern country, in the far east. I would never say that Japan is a western country regardless to what happens in the future. The reason for this is simply because of respect, and manner. if Japan was colonised in the future, which will likely never happen. I'm very sure that the majority of people in Japan, would still like to call Japan an eastern country.

Even if you have the theory that, Japan might be a western country. It wouldn't be a good idea to share this theory with the public. I have nothing against you, I live in a country where each individual have rights to express what we want to say. We call it freedom of speech.


Strangely, even this is a "multicultural" country. There are people who are against that. For example last month a group called the "FLQ" resurfaced. They also have a theory similar other people's theories about countries, literature, land, and people.


I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm just elaborating on how different groups of people have different view on theories.

[YAPONLUQ]

geographicaly Eastern
calturely Eastern
politicaly neutral

[humbleservant]

is it not possible that Japan is western and asian?

scotland is western and european, canada is western and north american. norway is western, and so is greece, and they have very different histories, ethnographies and cultures... the west and "white people" aren't one homogenous group:

i think that if you believe that western means "caucasian" then you are incorrect, as many who live in the west are not caucazoid.

as japan is a liberal democracy with a fully capitalist economy then it is definitely an "advanced" nation... and that most of the underdeveloped and less advanced countries would consider it as part of the "west". in fact when compared to many european countries you will find that japan's economy is more "western" (liberalised) than the likes of france and italy who have mixed economies.

[basuotoko]

Except that the term "Western" was developed by European explorers and traders to describe the geographic void between the countries of Europe and Asia. I think a secondary role is to distinguish between White countries of European origin and Eastern Asian countries. Places like Africa, the Middle East, and South and Central America are not covered.

Because the US, Canada, Australia, and NZ as we know them today were originally European settlements, and largely White, they fall under the West as well, despite geography. But there are no written rules, this is just how the vast majority of people today think, so it is essentially correct.

As for economic power, we have different terms to distinguish them. First World and Third World, developed and developing, or even geographic north and south. As far as that goes, Japan falls into the former for all labels, but it is still part of Asia, and hence the East.

Finally, the Japanese word for the West is 西洋　「せいよう」. Ask any Japanese and they will tell you them self that Japan is not part of it. That alone closes the debate.

[KirinMan]

Finally, the Japanese word for the West is 西洋　「せいよう」. Ask any Japanese and they will tell you them self that Japan is not part of it. That alone closes the debate.

Sure it may close the debate for Japanese people, however the majority of people posting on this board are not Japanese.

Personally I think that the term is outdated from it's usage in English.

However as the term is used here in Japan it refers to not only western nations but for the most part caucasian and non-asian peoples or countries. In a way it is a racial designation as well.

Ask any Japanese person if they think of Australian's and New Zelander's are 西洋人 or a westerner and you can probably already guess the answer to that.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.

I think that is true. We Westerners can love the East, can live in the East but we will never really become a part of the East.
And that also counts for the Orientals trying to become Westerners, only werternized in a Oriental way.

We can love each other, admire each other, respect each other, laugh together, but we can only try to understand each other.

I don't think that the difference is only on the outside ( I have seen many blond Japanese and Chinese lately) it is much more a diffence in our religions and superstions ( very important).
Or am I completely wrong?

[Sukotto]

were the terms "east" and "west" used as "cold war" terms?

and if so, perhaps they are archaic terms.
invented for propaganda purposes to get people to buy into the non-thinking
totalitarianism of such statements: "you're either with me or against me",
such as spoken by Anakin Skywalker, aka Darth Vader as he turned to the bleak, black, dark side.

some people tried to do the whole "non-aligned movement".
but people in washington didn't want to hear such stuff and continued to overthrow governments as they saw fit.

[StandAlone2323]

well, geographically speaking, Japan is Eastern. However, it has acted very western the past 200 years. A huge ego towards the rest of the world, industrialization at an incredible rate, as well as colonization. Not to mention that they showed the world that they were as powerful as any western nation by dealing Russia a humiliating defeat. I think they were one of the first Asian nations to draw immense nationalism from the people (also very western).

But its not like Japan was trying to be something its not, they simply recognized that the world was being gobbled up by the west, and if they wanted to keep their independence, they had to act fast. Industrialization was actually a good decision for the country, because they could've wound up like China under Mao had they wanted to keep their traditional culture and receive no western influence.

[Sukotto]

well, geographically speaking, Japan is Eastern.

they could've wound up like China under Mao had they wanted to keep their traditional culture and receive no western influence.


It depends who draws the map.
Since Europe and its off-shoot the US, have dominated for the past number
of centuries, North is on the top of most maps.
Have you ever seen some maps from the 50s (i hope they aren't used anymore)
with the US/Americas in the center and Asia divided on either side:
http://www.world-atlas.us/world-map.gif
And the sun revolves around the flat earth...

it is all perspective
http://www.wall-maps.com/World/UpsideDownWorld.gif
or
http://www.flourish.org/upsidedownmap/mcarthur.jpg

or this interesting perspective of Japan
down.http://www.nihonkaigaku.org/e_hp/index1.html

The Americas are also East of Asia.



Some Chinese might argue about Mao & traditional culture.
Not something I'd be able to debate.
But again, perspective.
But I might agree Mao & co wanted to keep westerners from
colonizing them and their resources.
Now Chinese elites colonize their own people hand in hand with transnational corporations.
ha
(not a fan of Mao)

[EmperorHirohito]

I did notice there is no mention of the Soviet Union on that map from the 1950's.

I wonder why that is so?

[Sukotto]

I did notice there is no mention of the Soviet Union on that map from the 1950's.
I wonder why that is so?


if that particular map (the first on listed) is actually from the 1950s or not, i do not know. i only used that one as an example of ones i've actually seen in real life when i was in grade school in the 80s.
for all i know such maps could be still around.

[[email protected]]

In terms of cultural values, Japan is probably the least "Western" country in Asia. Singapore probably the most "Western". Nothing good or bad about either......... that is my humble opinion in my capacity as a Beijing peasant girl :)

[[email protected]]

geographicaly Eastern
calturely Eastern
politicaly neutral


2 out of 3


Politically Opportunistic is my 2 yen worth! :)

or

Politically Insignificant for a country of its economic size. Quality cars are made in Japan. Its foreign policy is made in America. :)

[Sukotto]

Politically Insignificant for a country of its economic size. Quality cars are made in Japan. Its foreign policy is made in America. :)


youch.
there are Japanese that would agree with you

[kireikoori]

Oh man, how did I not notice this topic before. I'm in heaven.
I wish I didn't come into this topic so late.

In many ways yes. But most importantly I'd like to say that terms like eastern and western are quite blurry and hard to define to begin with. To an Odalist, Abrahamic religion is most certainly not Western religion, even though it is generally viewed as such.

I also agree with the OP about religion. The Phillipes is more Christian than most "Western" countries.

To me, Eastern religion is real Western religion since alot of our pre-Christian religious ideas came from India, a Asian country.

Japan is a first world, industrialized country. A Capitalists democracy, which is a big part of something being considered "Western". Just like OP says.

Here's another signifier, language. European countries speak European languages, Indo-European languages. Japanese is not a Indo-European language. However there are a few languages spoken in Europe that are not Indo-European. Uralic languages are not, and Finland and Hungary are definitely European countries. And last time I checked wikipedia Turkic was considered European. Japan is quite possibly an Altaic(Turkic) language if not a isolate, so that would make Japanese a European language.

To me the terms Eastern and Western are outdated, meaningless concepts. Not only are the terms too flexible, but the East means East of Europe, which makes Europe seem too important. To travel from the US to Japan I travel West, so Japan is more West than I.

The similarites between I an American and Japan is a good thing, that means less wall between us.

Eastern and Western may be invalid terms, but if I were to choose one to describe Japan, it would be Western.

[~Dei~]

Japan isn't a Western country.

The fact that it is industrialised and developed doesn't make it "western".

Many parts of the East are also catching up with the West.

These countries are retaining they're culture as well as taking onboard aspects of foreign cultures.

They don't suddenly become a Western country because they have money.

[kireikoori]

Ok, economy is one thing. But please eloborate. I'd like to know of all the things that makes Japan not Western.

[~Dei~]

Apart from geography, people and culture?

Japanese is officially a language isolate and so your argument that the language makes it European is invalid.

Also, I do not see how Japan's unique mixture of Shintoism and Buddhism can be thought of as western.

I agree that Eastern and Western are outdated concepts unless you're talking about geography.

[Goldiegirl]

What is western and who cares? Really? I voted no Japan isn't western, but now thinking about it, I don't know that "I" am even western, because I don't really know what I would be saying about myself. Am I western because of geography, lifestyle, religion, language, skin color....the list goes on.

[kireikoori]

Apart from geography, people and culture?
Japanese is officially a language isolate and so your argument that the language makes it European is invalid.
Geography? Silly Eurocentric concept. Depending on the map the Americas are more Eastern than Japan.

The classification of Japanese is heavily disputed. And everything other than Tamil and Austronesian points to some sort of Western relation.

And if Japan truly is a language isolate then that doesn't make it particularly Eastern per se, by uniquely Japanese.

Also, I do not see how Japan's unique mixture of Shintoism and Buddhism can be thought of as western.
Shinto is unique to Japan and not necessarily Eastern or Western. As for Buddhism it's an Indian religion. Modern day Western religion may be Christianity, but the Pre-Christian Europeans worships Gods which were largely Dharmic in origin. For instance the Goddess Danu.


I agree that Eastern and Western are outdated concepts unless you're talking about geography.
Geography too.

[Murs]

Individualistic Vs collective culture. Almost cliche to say Japan is collective society but its true(er) for them than Europe + North America. Though Some Scandavavian countries are quite socialist by nature and tend to be "for all people" esque. :relief:

[MadamePapillon]

Wow, very oldish thread but interesting.

Is Japan a western country? I'd say no.

I'm not taking into account geography because 'western' isn't a definite spot on the map, necessarily, but more a combination of peoples, values, culture, politics and language.

A lot of people think 'white' when they think western but I would argue that Jamacia or Spain or Mexico is considered western by many people. Hell, some people even consider Cuba to be 'one of the group'.

It's almost like a community of similar peoples. In a 'western' country we tend to share close ties and histories with other western countries, our languages are similar and often latin based...it's hard to explain but you know when someone is western. I've been around lot's of people from all parts of the world and there's always a sense of alikeness with other western people (even if they don't speak the same language) that I find very hard to find with people from, say China or Japan. Our culture and histories are so different that you're always thinking on just a slightly different frequency than each other.

So though Japan is copying many aspects of western life, politics, and fashion it's not actually a 'western' country because we're still so far apart culturally and historically. Deep down inside Japan is still an eastern country.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

geographicaly Eastern
calturely Eastern


Eastern like Russia, or Eastern like Australia ?


politicaly neutral

Do you mean apolitical ? :relief:



A lot of people think 'white' when they think western but I would argue that Jamacia or Spain or Mexico is considered western by many people. Hell, some people even consider Cuba to be 'one of the group'.

Spain => definitely (one of the founding nation of Western culture)
Mexico => maybe a bit
Jamaica => in your dreams ! I'd say that Japan is more Western(ized) than Jamaica.
Cuba => definitely more Western than Jamaica or Mexico. Normal, more people of European descent (not only Spanish but also French).



It's almost like a community of similar peoples. In a 'western' country we tend to share close ties and histories with other western countries, our languages are similar and often latin based...it's hard to explain but you know when someone is western. I've been around lot's of people from all parts of the world and there's always a sense of alikeness with other western people (even if they don't speak the same language) that I find very hard to find with people from, say China or Japan.

I agree with that.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Shinto is unique to Japan and not necessarily Eastern or Western. As for Buddhism it's an Indian religion. Modern day Western religion may be Christianity, but the Pre-Christian Europeans worships Gods which were largely Dharmic in origin. For instance the Goddess Danu.
Geography too.

Buddhism is a Western religion. It is Indo-European. It is a branch of Hinduism, a cousin of ancient European religions. Christianity is a Middle-Eastern religion. Shintoism is a form of animism, so it is universal.

[Han Chan]

Buddhism is a Western religion. It is Indo-European. It is a branch of Hinduism, a cousin of ancient European religions. Christianity is a Middle-Eastern religion. Shintoism is a form of animism, so it is universal.

Actually the concept Indo-European is mostly used when talking about Indo-European languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-european

If you like to include the South Asian cultures/countries into the category of western countries, the concept becomes nonsense. If both east and west is west, then everything is the same....

However, there are some influences into buddhism which can be claimed to have middle-eastern origins. There were, in the period prior to the christian crusades, a lively exchange of thoughts and ideas between east and west.

To claim that buddhism is a branch of Hinduism is wrong. It had its origin in the same area and some of the concepts are similar, but one is not a branch of the other.

Shintoism has its origins in animism and shamanism which used to be found all over the world, but shintoism has certainly evolved further and is very much a japanese thing.

Out the many claims you state in a very short post - not one is true! If we are to make any progress in our discussions about to what degree contemporary Japan is western or not, we certainly need more well researched posts than this one.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Actually the concept Indo-European is mostly used when talking about Indo-European languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-european

Languages and cultures are closely linked... How do you make the difference between Italian-speaking people and Italian culture people ?



If you like to include the South Asian cultures/countries into the category of western countries, the concept becomes nonsense. If both east and west is west, then everything is the same....

During the Cold War, Eastern European countries were not considered "Western" because they were in the Eastern communist block. Nowadays this doesn't make sense anymore. I think that India is still closer to Europe than to China or Japan. But it could be the heavy British influence. I think that the Middle East and Africa are neither Western not Eastern. China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, etc. are Eastern. India is in between, but more Western. Europeans who travel to India often say they go to discover "their roots", or "retrace the origins of our ancestors' religions".



To claim that buddhism is a branch of Hinduism is wrong. It had its origin in the same area and some of the concepts are similar, but one is not a branch of the other.

Buddha was a Hindu. The Hindu consider him as an avatar of Vishnu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha_from_the_Hindu_perspective). That is why there are no more Buddhists in India (except Tibetan refugees). They were all "absorbed" into Hinduism.


Shintoism has its origins in animism and shamanism which used to be found all over the world, but shintoism has certainly evolved further and is very much a japanese thing.

When I see Shinto temples and priests, they look very much like the ones in Korea and China (Taoist, Buddhist ?). What concept of shintoism is so unique to Japan ? I am talking of the religion itself, not the traditions that developed around it.

[Sensationalist]

The correct terminology would be westernized. Of course Japan is not a Western country, but it is westernized. Some would say that Hawaii is Japan since so many of its population are of Japanese descent.

[MadamePapillon]

The correct terminology would be westernized. Of course Japan is not a Western country, but it is westernized. Some would say that Hawaii is Japan since so many of its population are of Japanese descent.

Hawaii is sooooo not Japan. The Japanese population are immigrants, that makes them Hawaiian Japanese, it doesn't turn Hawaii into Japan. Besides, after the second generation they are no longer Japanese, they may look Japanese, but in every way that matters they are Hawaiian (unless their parents kept them in some sort of bubble all their life).

That's how it works over here, first gen immigrants are Japanese Canadian, second gen is simply Canadian. After the second generation....you belong to us :biggrin:

[Sensationalist]

Hawaii is sooooo not Japan. The Japanese population are immigrants, that makes them Hawaiian Japanese, it doesn't turn Hawaii into Japan. Besides, after the second generation they are no longer Japanese, they may look Japanese, but in every way that matters they are Hawaiian (unless their parents kept them in some sort of bubble all their life).
That's how it works over here, first gen immigrants are Japanese Canadian, second gen is simply Canadian. After the second generation....you belong to us :biggrin:

Hawaii is sooo Japanese, at least that's what most Japanese over here in Japan think, that's why so many take vacations over there. And I said "some" people. Think about it...?

[Goldiegirl]

They take vacations there because it's the USA with a bit of Japanese flair, but it isn't like Japan overall, just bits and pieces. If the claim was that wherever the people descended from makes there new country "their old" country, then I would be living in Germany, Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, UK, Africa (one of the many countries of that continent), Mexico, Spain, and the list goes on. Anyway, I do agree with the terminology that Japan is Westernized, although I don't think there is any one good definition on Westernization and exactly what it entails.

[kireikoori]

Indo-European does not just refer to language.
Though btw Sanskrit is of the Indo-European language family.

Danu of the Celtic pre-Christian faith is probably the same one of the Hindu faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesir-Asura_correspondence#Etymology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_india
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu

Also, yes, Buddhism is a branch of Hinduism. Buddhism is to Hinduism as Christianity is to Judaism.

[Doc]

They take vacations there because it's the USA with a bit of Japanese flair, but it isn't like Japan overall, just bits and pieces. If the claim was that wherever the people descended from makes there new country "their old" country, then I would be living in Germany, Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, UK, Africa (one of the many countries of that continent), Mexico, Spain, and the list goes on. Anyway, I do agree with the terminology that Japan is Westernized, although I don't think there is any one good definition on Westernization and exactly what it entails.

For me, I see Westernization of a nation nothing more than industrialization of a nation, who participates in North American and European affairs. Still, it is an East Asian nation, so I see it sort as both in that light.

-Doc :wave:

[Goldiegirl]

I kinda agree with that sentiment Doc, you put it a little more clearly! :)

[gaijinalways]

Buddhism is a Western religion.

Huh? The inventor was Indian, so I am not quite sure how that would make it Western.


Buddha was a Hindu. The Hindu consider him as an avatar of Vishnu.



Hawaii is sooo Japanese, at least that's what most Japanese over here in Japan think, that's why so many take vacations over there. And I said "some" people. Think about it...?

It is, but it isn't. It holds the charms of a multi-asian population with Western values (Western justice system, etc.). It's a soft landing for Japanese spouses married to Americans.

PS Goldie girl, damn, your avatar is making me dizzy. I guess you do make my world turn!

[Goldiegirl]

Sorry 'bout that gaijinalways! :) It's cool though, but I wish it was a real picture of the earth. Ok, back on track I like your notion of Hawaii being a soft landing for Japanese spouses married to Americans. I know of one such couple that are planning to live in Hawaii because it's easier for his Japanese wife and he wants to be back in the USA.

[Sensationalist]

For me, I see Westernization of a nation nothing more than industrialization of a nation, who participates in North American and European affairs. Still, it is an East Asian nation, so I see it sort as both in that light.
-Doc :wave:

I see Westernization of a nation as a disease of the soul. Industrialization is the by-product of technological advancements, Japan proved that. Not only was Japan able to industrialize( using a western model) before and after the war, but they were also able to do it the Japanese way without western philosophical dogma/western thinking...etc,. So, no there's only one light.:blush:

[MadamePapillon]

I see Westernization of a nation as a disease of the soul. Industrialization is the by-product of technological advancements, Japan proved that. Not only was Japan able to industrialize( using a western model) before and after the war, but they were also able to do it the Japanese way without western philosophical dogma/western thinking...etc,. So, no there's only one light.:blush:

You know, some people might consider that to be extremely rude.
You don't have to like the west but please be decent enough to realize when you go to far. Would you like it if I called Asia a disease? I think not.

EDIT: And if I'm not mistaken, Japan is very westernized, as I believe this had already been established.

[Sensationalist]

You know, some people might consider that to be extremely rude.
You don't have to like the west but please be decent enough to realize when you go to far. Would you like it if I called Asia a disease? I think not.
EDIT: And if I'm not mistaken, Japan is very westernized, as I believe this had already been established.


Westernization or Westernism has always undermined the cultural, historical, and fundamental thinking of asian countries for centuries. Sure, Democracy has its merits but overall asian thought or philosophy has been around far longer and is much more refined in terms of social structure.

In Japan’s case, there was a time when westernization was good, as far back as the 17th century: schools, universal sufferage, womens rights, and so on. However, what we are seeing now is an emerging identity crisis and social degeneration in this country which has all to do with over westernization ! Everything from anime to the family nucleus has severely been compromised because of the desire to be more westernized, and or ‘free thinking’ so to speak…i.e.. anime characters have Caucasoid features; women are asserting themselves more and more and demanding greater freedom and independents from the tradition social model of the Times. (“There was really nothing wrong with the original model to begin with, but western countries ‘sell freedom’ like it’s something that should be earned when in fact all of us are born free in principle”). The traditional model of order worked very well, so to speak.

[MadamePapillon]

Just because something is older that doesn't make it better.
Democracy is a way for all people, not just those privileged few, to be heard and to have a say in how their country and society is run. In Asia, historically, the common people were at the mercy of the ruling powers. They didn't have rights as we know them today, they didn't have a voice and were, more often than not, dirt poor. When those in power said jump they said 'how high'. The traditional model was good for keeping people in line, not creating freedom and equality. I don't know anyone who longs for the 'good 'ol days' of oppression and those who do are idiots who don't know what they're talking about.


But I fail to see how we have anything to do with Japans identity crisis. You said it yourself...the desire to be more westernized. Implying that the Japanese people want to be more like us. That is a problem existing in the minds of the Japanese people. A happy, confident and secure people don't want or desire to be anything other than themselves, so maybe the people just aren't happy with the way things are in their own country.

Also, I don't see how women asserting themselves is any problem. In fact, of all the top industrialized nations Japan probably has the lowest score in womens rights and yet yours is the country who's population is facing one of the worst declines. Once again, a problem than Japan itself has created, not us.
As a mature, fully functioning, top economic power of a country, one would expect Japan to be able to take responsibility for it's own social problems rather than blaming the west, as is becoming increasingly popular among the world.

[chin]

I dont think that Japan is western country.
And it is not right to definite it just because it is a developed country.

Southeast Asia share familiar mind even though there were conflics.
One thing is true: japan want himself to be a western country.
sometimes japan even looks down upon his Asia neibours.

Japanese government willl change their attitude someday.
...

[tokapi]

Are you referring to this ... :?

Japanese lack affinity towards Asians & psychologically dis-associated themselves from other East Asian folks much due to Fukuzawa Yukichi's (福澤 諭吉) concept of " Datsu-A Ron " ( 脫亞論 ).Fukuzawa Yukichi (福澤 諭吉) 著名思想家 . 日本國之哲人也。首創《脫亞論》﹐對日本國思想界﹐影響甚鉅。日本天皇尊為老師.後期,福澤蔑視亞洲各國, 肯定了侵略的亞洲蔑視者的這樣的批判.His face appears on 10,000 yen Japanese banknote.

What goes around comes around,Chinese belittled ancient Japanese as 倭奴 ( derogatory term ) and now ... eh ... eh ... China 支那

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wa_(Japan)

[chin]

Yea that's what i want to say.
It's a Datsu-A Ron.

Ancient Japanese was called 倭奴 by Chinese,
China was replaced with Shina in Japanese government papers.

[tokapi]

日本右翼石原慎太郎 Shintaro Ishihara once commented, " Chinese will never understand why Japanese call China before Song Dynasty 中国 but after Song Dynasty 支那 ":blush:

Back to the thread topic ... no,Japan is not a Western country

[pipokun]

...
Japanese government willl change their attitude someday.
...
Why are there so many China towns around the world?
I don't know why the (some) Chinese people refuse to be assimilated into the society...

It is really interesting for me to find similarities among Asian cultures, but there are also differences among them.
I highly appreciate the great Chinese poets, but I think Japan did the right thing not to accept the eunuch, the zero tolerance of funeral culture against people who are not accepted in the present, or whatever.

If Shoko Asahara, a notorious terrorist under the name of religion, would do the same crime in China or Korea, he would not have the right to be buried there... I am sure that I shall never go to his tomb (if he gets death penalty), but his family has the right to do so.

[chin]

支那 is from Indian in fact...

Japanese totally changed its original meaning.
It was just a name for china.
Cant you see they are familiar: shina and china.

[chin]

Hello Pipokun:
Well i agree with you partly but i insist that
Chinese culture is the very bisis of JAPAN's civilization.

And what we need to do it to learn history not to shy away
away from it. japan has developed greatly, that what we need to study.

Dont misunderstand me and if you'd like,
we can talk in Japanese or Chinese.
I am sorry i cant express myself correctly owing to my limited English.

Nice to meet you here.

[Sensationalist]

Just because something is older that doesn't make it better.
Democracy is a way for all people, not just those privileged few, to be heard and to have a say in how their country and society is run. In Asia, historically, the common people were at the mercy of the ruling powers. They didn't have rights as we know them today, they didn't have a voice and were, more often than not, dirt poor. When those in power said jump they said 'how high'. The traditional model was good for keeping people in line, not creating freedom and equality. I don't know anyone who longs for the 'good 'ol days' of oppression and those who do are idiots who don't know what they're talking about.
But I fail to see how we have anything to do with Japans identity crisis. You said it yourself...the desire to be more westernized. Implying that the Japanese people want to be more like us. That is a problem existing in the minds of the Japanese people. A happy, confident and secure people don't want or desire to be anything other than themselves, so maybe the people just aren't happy with the way things are in their own country.
Also, I don't see how women asserting themselves is any problem. In fact, of all the top industrialized nations Japan probably has the lowest score in womens rights and yet yours is the country who's population is facing one of the worst declines. Once again, a problem than Japan itself has created, not us.
As a mature, fully functioning, top economic power of a country, one would expect Japan to be able to take responsibility for it's own social problems rather than blaming the west, as is becoming increasingly popular among the world.

Democracy doesn’t work for every society, just ask Putin. Where was democracy in the U.S. during the 2000 elections and how many people were disenfrachised during that voting process ? Point is, we can go on and on about the wonders of Democracy and how ordinary people have privileges that other countries have not. Japan has at present, if not, the longest reigning dynasty in history which means the system worked well for the dynamics of its society with or without the present day Psuedo-Democracy which only exists on paper here anyway. (“ If it wasn’t broke, it shouldn’t have been fixed ”).


What you also fail to see is that Japan was destroyed by two atomic bombs, the only country in the history of manking to ever receive them, you tell me it’s the Japanese who have mental issues regarding identity brought on by that devastation. When you occupied this country you destroyed all vestiges of nationalism from the roots up and then you re-institutionalized your own brand of western fundamentalism . Who else were the Japanese supposed to emulate, a thoroughly destroyed and castrated nation full of men who stood for nothing but capitalism ? Women who became obsessed with Western fashion and Western thinking who were their role models, Audrey Hepburn ?

Of all the industrialized nations the Japanese have the same rights as men according to their constitution, just like in the U.S. The problem is that 90% of the Japanese population live as if the Meiji constitution is still in place. This is because your average Japanese citizen has no interest in politics let alone the voting process.

The bomb was a crime, maybe the U.S. should take responsibility for these and other social problems brought on by institutionalized pacifism.

[Goldiegirl]

Wow, from what I've seen Japan certainly doesn't look destroyed.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Huh? The inventor was Indian, so I am not quite sure how that would make it Western.

They were Aryan, so from present-day Ukraine. Genetic tests have somewhat proven the migration of the Aryans to India. We can see clear genetic similarities between Northern Indians and Eastern Europeans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia#R1a1_an d_R2

[Han Chan]

They were Aryan, so from present-day Ukraine. Genetic tests have somewhat proven the migration of the Aryans to India.
The the migration theory have so far not been proven. Recent genetic studies show that there are some linkageges between different communities who live far from each other, but the idea of one Aryan race have been out of fashion since 1945.

The word Aryan have been tainted by the horrors of tha holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan


Because of historical racist use of Aryan, and especially use of Aryan race in connection with the propaganda of Nazism, the word is sometimes avoided in the West as being tainted, in the same manner as the swastika symbol. Currently, India and Iran are the only countries to use the word Aryan in a demographic denomination.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

The the migration theory have so far not been proven. Recent genetic studies show that there are some linkageges between different communities who live far from each other, but the idea of one Aryan race have been out of fashion since 1945.
The word Aryan have been tainted by the horrors of tha holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

That's not the same meaning of Aryan. The Aryans are not the blond-haired Germans that Hitler talked about, but a prehistoric tribe of people from the Caucasus region. Germans and Celts are not Aryan. You should read history books rather than Mein Kampf.

[Han Chan]

That's not the same meaning of Aryan. The Aryans are not the blond-haired Germans that Hitler talked about, but a prehistoric tribe of people from the Caucasus region. Germans and Celts are not Aryan. You should read history books rather than Mein Kampf.
I am a Social Anthropologist with regional specialization in South Asia, and I do know what I am talking about.
You, on the other hand, seem to pick and choose your information, without understanding that you are actually building on some oldfashioned racial theories. It is good if your understanding is not based on Mein Kampf, but using a concept like Aryan makes you sound like someone who might - even if it was not your intention.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am a Social Anthropologist with regional specialization in South Asia, and I do know what I am talking about.
You, on the other hand, seem to pick and choose your information, without understanding that you are actually building on some oldfashioned racial theories. It is good if your understanding is not based on Mein Kampf, but using a concept like Aryan makes you sound like someone who might - even if it was not your intention.

So you mean that Aryan is a taboo word, even if not used in the meaning used by the Nazi ? Does that please you better if I say Kurgan ? It's basically the same thing.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Why are there so many China towns around the world?
I don't know why the (some) Chinese people refuse to be assimilated into the society...

To try on your first question, possibly because where many Chinese people reside, their is a want for own goods, food, clothing, CD's, books, etc.

I know this applies to Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Middle Eastern cultures within Australia, although not limited to Australia only.

Second, I have found Japanese people in Australia do not assimilate at all, neither do African's.

On the other hand, I find that Chinese do very much so in Australia, and without any issues at all.. Thailand is another example where it is difficult to distinguish between the two cultures as they have actully bred over the years to be fully assimilated.

We have quite a few Chinese friends coming from both mainland China and Hong Kong. I can certainly point to some who have assimilated and some who have not, including between couples.. We have friends, he is from Hong Kong, she from China, she is having problems assimilating, whilst he has been here for 18 years and calls himself an Aussie.

Chinese in Australia go back since the beginning, and we have large communities who can not speak Chinese anymore..

Japanese on the other, have not assimilated at all In Thailand.

I can only speak for these two countires as I know them well.

Do Chinese assimilate within in Japan?

If yes or no, why do think?

[Han Chan]

Do Chinese assimilate within in Japan?

If yes or no, why do think?

I think that it would not be fair to generalize. On one hand you have China Town in Yokohama - which could indicate that Chinese do not integrate. On the other hand, you have so many Chinese women who marry Japanese men, and blend in by becoming "japanese housewifes".

[Rioneru]

Seems to be too much mixing of apples and oranges, concerning individual stances in contrast with one's region's affliation, ethnicity, historical socio/poli influence, etc. Sure, all of these things have played a factor in establishing the terms Westerner and Easterner; so much so, that a possible distinction that could've been made primarily on geography or cultural is now lost.

I would have to say Japan comes off to me as an Eastern country that has very much been Westernized. But, of course, if you were to talk to a Japanese person, they would not consider themselves apart of the "Western world". I've actually found a large amount of Japanese find themselves to be quite different from the rest in the world, with perspective. :souka:

[Kyoto Returnee]

But, of course, if you were to talk to a Japanese person, they would not consider themselves apart of the "Western world". I've actually found a large amount of Japanese find themselves to be quite different from the rest in the world, with perspective. :souka:

That's a good point.

Not Asian, not Western but Japanese!

And would you believe we have Japanese Spaghetti for dinner tonight LOL.

I often tell Japanese that Australian Sushi is best!

[Kyoto Returnee]

I think that it would not be fair to generalize. On one hand you have China Town in Yokohama - which could indicate that Chinese do not integrate. On the other hand, you have so many Chinese women who marry Japanese men, and blend in by becoming "japanese housewifes".

I disagree with both your opinions.

Having China Town doesn't mean that Chinese don't assimilate into a country, afterall, Chinese food and goods are very common internationally in most counntries around the world.

I think everytown in Australia has a Chinese restaurant..

Having said that, I am still to hear from a Japanese person if Chinese people do actually assimilate.

We have an Australian Town in Australia which proves my point..

Chinese women who "become" Japanese housewives doesn't really make much sense either on assimilation..

[Dogen Z]

What a long thread for a simple question. Actually, Japan is a Northeast Asian country with a Confucian based society that has incorporated many Western elements.

[pipokun]

Desecration of historic site upsets Broome
Thursday, 16 June 2005
Gravesites attacked
Broome's multicultural community is upset at a vandalism attack on the historic Japanese cemetery.
http://www.abc.net.au/kimberley/stories/s1393851.htm


a Confucian based society
Vandalism like the above is what a tyical Confucian funamentalist did in Korea or China in the past.
And revolution is one of the key ideas in Confucianism, esp., Mencius, but we had a lucky legend that ships carrying Mencius documents had sunk.
(*snip* it might be an interesting topic if the Meiji Restoration was a revolution or not).

It seems to me that a great multicultrural country like Australia which, I think, is non-Confucian should introduce the regulation like the one in the US where you cannot be politically loud in graveyards, though I bet there must be some regulations there.

Anyways, Japan is a country where stupid anti-(whatever) activists are loud when it is sunny or rainy, so I do not know why the angry young Chinese people remain calm in China now.

[kireikoori]

I just recently decided to put the word "westerner" into wikipedia and it came up with the article "Western World". And it divided the use and meanings of Western into a few categories.

The historic West is originally the Mediterranean. Or in other words Greek and Roman culture. I guess Romans and Greeks were the first people to consider themselves Western. Which would make by this definition all people of Latin culture such as the French, Spanish, Mexicans, Brazilians, Portuguese and Italians more Western than Northern European Germanic people. Also this would make Turkey very Western because of being part of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Linguistically there's the Indo-European language family. And according to wikipedia, sometimes Hebrew as well. Because of the Abrahamic influence. Also there are Uralic languages spoken in Finland, Hungary and Estonia which are all considered part of the West.
_
Japanese is a language isolate. Nobody knows for sure which language family Japanese belongs to. Though there are strong possibilities out there strongly supported by certain linguists.
* That Japanese is an Altaic language, related to the many North Asian languages. And can be extended even if further if the Ural-Altaic hypothesis is correct. That would make Japanese related to Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian. Maybe not Indo-European, but Western nonetheless. Heck, there's also the idea that Ural-Altaic languages are proto-Indo-European.
* That Japanese is part of the Eurasiatic language family, and distantly a part of the Indo-European family.
* If you consider Hebrew to be Western because of Christianity, many users have exerted similarities between Hebrew language and Japanese, claiming Japanese are part of the lost tribes of Israel. Not a well supported hypothesis among linguists, however.

Economically, being a first world country is considered Western. Japan is very high on the HDI, definitely a first world country. Heck, the Yen just surpassed the US dollar.

Politically, democracy is considered Western. Japan has become a democracy and is very anti-Communist generally. Shedding off the Fascism shared with Germany during WWII. Both countries evolving into the current political definition of Western equally.

Many consider Judeo-Christian religion to be Western. Coincidental or not, some users here have drawn similarities between Shinto and Abrahamic/Judaic religion. Again with that whole "lost tribes of Israel" thing.

In the end the East vs. West thing is a false dichotomy though. There is no such thing truly.

[Sukotto]

this is sort of a response to some things in kireikoori's post.
i'm not trying to be critical, just discuss, so i apologize if anything
sounds harsh.

you forgot Italy as being fascist.
Mussolini and fascist are practically synonymous.
while Germany too was clearly fascist, "nazism", the localized brand, & reservations, err, excuse me -
concentration camps, come to mind more readily than the f word.
(can anybody point me in the direction of some good books on WW2 era Japan & fascism. while i don't really doubt this term would apply, i more often hear the term "Japanese militarism" coupled with imperialism applying to Japan. --those two are clearly points of fascism)



"western" & "democracy"

it is a commonly held belief that "democracy" is a "western" concept.
putting aside the idea that "western" is an ideological construct to begin with,

what about the known fact that the authors of the US constitution borrowed
heavily from the Iroquois Confederacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois), a grouping of 6 of N America's First Nations.
such ideas and practices have existed pre-contact with Europeans.
also, in many tribes/nations throughout the americas, the chief was not really a position that was so dominant as to be the equivalent of a king. it was rather Europeans in their thinking and/or wanting to deal with one or a small number of people that helped to contribute to the importance of a chief. --and the stressing of hierarchy, as the first settlers (the Indians) had much more egalitarian societies.

Much of this is somewhat fresh in my memory as I recently read the relevant chapters of "Lies My Teacher Told Me Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong"
by James W. Loewen (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/History/First_Thanksgiving_LMTTM.html) "First Thanksgiving" and especially "Red Eyes" (this page has excerpts from the original 1995 edition. i am currently reading the updated 2007 edition.)

the Americas are/were only really considered "western" with regards to being settled by western Europeans. So what of the ideas of the many (still alive and living) cultures indigenous to the Americas? They are not really considered "western" and their democracy existed completely independent of ancient Greece which is touted as the birth place of "western" thought and the idea of democracy.



jokes:
maybe we only like the idea of democracy, but fail to practice it?
is "western" thought actually the idea of tricking people into believing
they are practicing benign actions?
take for example the British empire(dishonor is empire). the rulers of this society
claimed they were colonizing India in order to "civilize" the peoples living there.



lastly,
interesting that some might have drawn comparisons "between Shinto and Abrahamic/Judaic religion". I've not heard of this before and would be interested in reading them. Admittedly, I am rather naive about Shinto, but I've always heard of it compared to animist religions (not counting the state co-opted version of the Emperor and Sun Goddess, etc...). Also, I believe all religions have wisdom in them and are about peace and getting along as evidenced by the many variations of "treat others as you would have them treat you" present in almost every religion/belief system. I'm writing this because I want to put it that I am not trying to "separate" Shinto from Abrahamic/Judaic religion by placing it with other religions in some sort of artificial hu-(M)an-made hierarchy, because I believe there is much to be learned from various religions/beliefs from throughout the world, including Africa, China, East Timor, etc...

I "talk" too much. Gomenasai. :bow:

[akita]

Well geographically Japan is in north -east Asia. I guess is normal not to consider them self western. Nevertheless is also where EU place this country. according to this standard they establish economical and political cooperation. Other north-east Asian countries are China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South/north Korea . Japan is part only of ASEM (Asia-Europe meeting) so I guess is here they place themself. All other regional agreement don't include Japan so they must consider themself an north -east Asian country.

[dongdong]

Japan is not a western country!! I don't think you can define it western simply because it is developped. Japan still has many, many eastern traditions as regular practice. I really don't even see a point to this debate.

That's exactly what I think too.:giggle:

[Sukotto]

That's exactly what I think too.:giggle:



yeah.
i too agree.

it's as if "the west", or European sprouted or transplanted societies invented technology. :giggle:

or as i tried (probably miserably) to point (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=555255&postcount=340) out that the concepts behind the Greek-based word "democracy", historically only existed in societies usually associated with "the west". because we use a word that has roots in a "western" language, we are led to believe that a certain bit of human nature was invented by a specific small group of people.

[minime]

definitely not...
1) physically located in Asia, obviously the east part;
2) having culture similar to China, the typically eastern culture; and
3) being Asian human race
Even i don't care about whether or not Japan is a western country, emotionally. I have to say no...

[Proud Asian Kid]

So, does that mean that non-Christian European, Americans, etc. are not Westerners ? For instance, I have absolutely nothing to do with Christians values, moral and believes, nevertheless, I am a Westerner. Nowadays, a majority of young Europeans don't care about religion or are Christian just on paper (never attend church or far from convinced that the Bible is the Truth). Among these, about 5-10% of people are atheist. Then, countries like France or the UK have about 10% of their population that is Muslim. Eventhough they were born and raised in Europe, aren't these people Westerners ? What about Caucasians muslims (Serbs...) or converts ?

Then, whith the logic Western = Christian background (common history, values, morals, culture), Filipinos should be Westerners, as they are more fanatically Christian than most Europeans, have 500 years of colonial Christian history and are culturally more Spanish-American than Asian.

Same for the 25% of Koreans that are Christians. Are they Westerners ? If so, what about the 75% left, Buddhist or Atheist ?

Are Coptic Egyptian or Christian Syrian, Iraqi or Armenian Westerners because they share all the history, values, moral than Europeans ? Anyway, culturally, there a Syrian is probably as near of a Greek than a Greek from an Irish or Finn. Greeks share so much with Turkish that only the religion and language separate them. Greeks are the historical pillar of Western values (democracy, philosophy, reason, sciences...).

That brings us to the next point : Weren't Romans or Ancient Greeks Westerners ? If not, when can we talk for the first time of Western country ?
From what I see, you try hard to convince peoples at least who read your topic that Japan is a western country since you yourself badly wish to be Japanese while you can not change the fact that you are not Japanese or even Asian but a westerner who love to make fantasy about Japan.

But on topic, Japan IS Asian country with many facts such as =
- Japanese not calling themselves as westerner but as Asians
- Japan never participate on western only stuff such as on European football games but participate on Asian only stuff such as Asian Champion or ASIAN games, etc.
- Japan is located in Asia, not in the west.
- Japanese GENE and DNA are Asian DNA and GENE which makes Japanese, Chinese. Philippine or other Asian look alike and not look like westerner.
- Japanese culture is Asian based culture such as you will not see Japanese female topless on the beach unlike westerner females on the beach.

There are many other reasons but thuse are already enough to prove it.

[Proud Asian Kid]

yeah.
i too agree.
it's as if "the west", or European sprouted or transplanted societies invented technology. :giggle:
or as i tried (probably miserably) to point out that the concepts behind the Greek-based word "democracy", historically only existed in societies usually associated with "the west". because we use a word that has roots in a "western" language, we are led to believe that a certain bit of human nature was invented by a specific small group of people.
Democracy in Japan are FORCED into Japan after 2 years of america nuke Japan in 1945, so it is not because of Japanese own free will, also the democracy in Japan is deferent than in other western country.

[kusojiji]

- Japan never participate on western only stuff such as on European football games but participate on Asian only stuff such as Asian Champion or ASIAN games, etc.


That is obviously not true and you are obviously an idiot.


democracy in Japan is deferent than in other western country.


How so, exactly?