Radical difference between East and West regarding relationships and marriage

[ShadowSpirit]

Mikawa: Sorry to hear that.
This thread is starting to get depressing. Okay. I'm going to try and lighten it up with a slightly amusing true experience I had.
Not long ago I was living in Hawaii (I'm actually on a combat deployment right now, even though my profile says I reside in California. I can't list my current location so instead I chose my home state.) Well I was eating dinner with a friend at a popular downtown Japanese steak house called Kobe's. As one would expect of such an establishment, the seating places groups of people together around a chef whom entertains with his culinary skills.
One of the couples accompanying the table I was at happened to be a newlywed couple from Japan. They were sitting directly next to me at one end of the table. At no point during their time there did they speak any English. My nihongo is very limited right now, and was even more so the few months ago that this story took place. I know it was rude of me to try listening to their conversation, but I was trying to use the opportunity to train my ear for the tone of Japanese speakers. Not thinking that I would be able to actually understand anything they were saying, I was able to learn a few key things: 1) The husband wanted to know what they should do after dinner. 2) The wife felt it was getting too dark outside and suggested they go back to their hotel. 3) They were talking about what to do while at the hotel. Yet this was when they really lost me in the conversation, cause I didn't understand any of the words being used at that time.
A few glasses of sake later, and I muster up the courage to test what little nihongo I knew. I call out to the chef and ask him to please pass me the soy sauce. The newlywed couple were talking happily loud, laughing, and having a great time. That was until they heard me speak Japanese. Then suddenly, they get this terrified look on their face. The husband asks his wife if she thinks I could understand what they were talking about. She shrugs. Then they suddenly become extremely quiet for the rest of the dinner. No longer talking.
Haha. I don't know if they discussed intimate things that they were afraid I might had heard, or maybe they insulted me and were afraid I heard that. Not saying they would have done such a thing. Yet apparently they were jostled about something after fearing that I might be able to speak Japanese. I felt bad actually. I didn't know they were going to get quiet afterwards.
Okay. That's my story. Anybody have a good culture shock story to tell? I suppose one that sticks more to the theme of this thread than my blatantly off topic story.

[jt9258]

My opinion. Basically jt9258. Every time you ask kusojiji to explain himself, it is repetitive. Because he already summarized that you aren't being fair by categorizing all Japanese people into one mindset. Everytime he tells you that your views are BS, and you ask why, it's always going to point back to the idea that so long as you keep labeling people, that he won't take much value in the things you're saying.

It's not about labeling people, it's about providing information about what I have experienced, seen, and heard.

You honestly expect people to believe that every Japanese woman (when it probably isn't even most,) is exactly the same? Outlook on love, outlook on marriage, outlook on life in general.

No! I do not expect anyone to believe that every Japanese women will be the same, or even have the same personality, they are all different. But when they live in Japan, they feel they have to do what is expected of them, and follow cultural roles that they may very well not like, Japanese women are leaving marriage until much later in life for this very reason.

Yet not a single woman in your country of origin outside of Japan acts anything like a Japanese woman?

There are women outside Japan that have similarities to Japanese women, but they do not live within a culture that means they have to conform to what is expected of them, or have the mind that they feel they must conform.

Furthermore, you portray all Japanese men as unfaithful to their wives. It's one thing to say that most Japanese men (whether it is true or not, I do not know) are unfaithful.

I am not saying that all Japanese men are unfaithfull, what I am saying is that Japanese men do not have an interest in there wives after children, because they do not view them as women anymore, so many do have relationships outside the marriage, or seek a "Sex Friend", and there are wives who will actually encourage there husbands to take a girlfriend/sex friend, and do this without questioning or complaining, because that's how things are done.

jt9258, are you from a country where all men are faithful to their wives?

No! though the difference is that when a man has a mistress here in Japan, the mistress will have no expectations from him other than the time they spend together, she will respect him as being a married man, and will never expect him to leave his wife for her, even when she may be under peer pressure to take a husband, and in most cases they will even share the cost of the time they spend together.

If you managed to read the demographics I posted earlier, you'll notice that marriage as a business proposition is not as popular in Japan as you make it out to be.

While surveys may show that the concensus is that it is not as popular, it does not mean that in reality Japanese women can accept living different married lives, that do not follow what is expected of them, as I have mentioned, Japanese women are leaving marriage till later in life, because they feel it wrong to do some thing different than what is expected of them, though with older age, it brings the problem that many Japanese men will not be interested in these women, because they prefer younger cute women, though when they do get married, they may very well just regard it as a business relationship, and label it as a happy marriage.
Also it should be remembered that there are Japanese women ( Not All), who marry foreign men because they want a different better life, than being married to a Japanese man, though in reality they still follow the cultural norm, when living in Japan, and treat there foreign husband, as if he was the same as a Japanese man, which results in many foreign men complaining of living in loveless, sexless marriages.

Still the same, there are women in America whom proposition marriages on a financial basis. We call them gold diggers.

Yes! I agree! though a gold digger would never consider a relationship/marriage with an english teacher or a salary man, on an average salary, and then expect him to live in a sexless, loveless marriage, Japanese women are looking to ensure that a man can provide for the family, and will place more importance on this than an initmate loving relationship.

That must mean there are plenty of romantic and faithful people in Japan. To say or pretend otherwise is just upsetting and enfuriating.

I am not saying that there are no Japanese people that live romantic, and faithfull lives, what I am saying is that there is no way of knowing how any relationship would develop after marriage, because many foreign men have as I have mentioned, complained that their once passionate girlfriend, is no longer interested in sex after marriage, and many foreigners do not feel loved, by their partners when there is no intimate relationship between them..

Cause I consider myself a crafty researcher. I will find the similarities of both good and bad between nihonjin and any country you pick on the globe.

I am not disputing that there are similarities, though making comparisons to people living in other countries, while not considering the culture that they feel they must follow is not respecting the Japanese.

[kusojiji]

Post #216 x 2. Have you even read all the posts in this thread, numbskull? Unbelievable.

[becki_kanou]

Kusojiji-
Even if you disagree with jt, there's no need to resort to insults. Let's keep the discussion civil, shall we?

[kusojiji]

His attitude; what it implies, the effect it may have, and its persistent ignorance is hardly 'civil.' I cannot but conclude at this point that he is a detestable human being.

[Uchite]

Very, very interesting topic and intelligent replies. One of the best I have read on JREF!

[IpekBLC]

Question! What do Japanese men think about foreign women? I am really confused about that matter.